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Poll on Changeling disguises


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Poll: Transform (69 member(s) have cast votes)

Would you prefer

  1. Limited-time disguise that makes mobs ignore you (40 votes [57.97%])

    Percentage of vote: 57.97%

  2. Unlimited disguise that does not fool mobs (29 votes [42.03%])

    Percentage of vote: 42.03%

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#1 Seabreeze

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 07:48 PM

Since there's been some disagreement over the ability.



#2 Solice

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 10:50 PM

Can we confirm that everyone voting as actually a Changeling? Other races shouldn't have a say in this.



#3 Squint

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 10:53 PM

No, they should. Otherwise you'll all just choose the more convenient option!



#4 Hepolite

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 11:00 PM

How convenient an option is entirely depends on what one wants to do with it. Sure, if one fights a lot of mobs then the disguise that hides one from mobs is okay to have, but if one prefers player interaction, then the other would be much more viable. There's no "more convenient" option as far as I can tell.


Edited by Hepolite, 13 April 2014 - 11:05 PM.


#5 Cloud Gazer

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 11:06 PM

I feel the unlimited option seems OP for it, limitted time, and every point in disguise increases the duration however would seem to make it more fun

#6 Solice

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 11:09 PM

No, they should. Otherwise you'll all just choose the more convenient option!

 

Other races do not know the situation and how the Changeling skills work and act. Both choices are equally fair for gameplay, but the choice comes down to the preference of the players who are actually Changelings.


I feel the unlimited option seems OP for it, limitted time, and every point in disguise increases the duration however would seem to make it more fun

 

The unlimited option is not over-powered since it does not fool mobs. The whole point of the unlimited disguise is for RP purposes, which most Changelings prefer. We can already fly, that is enough protection from mobs.



#7 Squint

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 11:14 PM

Other races do not know the situation and how the Changeling skills work and act. Both choices are equally fair for gameplay, but the choice comes down to the preference of the players who are actually Changelings.

Okay, you've knocked that argument down just fine. However, I'm sure that Tsar wasn't just talking about changelings themselves when he's saying that there's been some disagreement, so shouldn't everyone who wants to have a say get a vote?



#8 Solice

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 11:20 PM

Okay, you've knocked that argument down just fine. However, I'm sure that Tsar wasn't just talking about changelings themselves when he's saying that there's been some disagreement, so shouldn't everyone who wants to have a say get a vote?

 

That would be like someone in Canada voting for the President of the United States. Just because they think they should have a say doesn't mean that do. They do not live in the US, and they do not know what is best for the country. The same logic applies here. If someone is not a Changeling themselves, they do not know what is best for the race as a whole, and they should NOT have a say that affects an entire group that they are not even a part of.



#9 Cloud Gazer

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 11:29 PM


"The unlimited option is not over-powered since it does not fool mobs. The whole point of the unlimited disguise is for RP purposes, which most Changelings prefer. We can already fly, that is enough protection from mobs."
-senketsu
True, but if i had read correctly, the better your disguises you'll beable to fool mobs.

"Changeling

Changelings are a flying caster/melee hybrid class. They can freely transform into the shape of mobs, although at first their transformations are not good enough to fool real mobs. Although they take more damage than the other classes, they can keep themselves healthy with their life drain abilities, and can also fill their food bar off enemies. Furthermore, they are capable of spitting webs and encasing enemies in cocoons, and gain passive regeneration when deep beneath the surface. They are the only class that can eat meat."
-seabreeze

As I have read from the classes, i can only assume that the better your transformation the better to fool mobs. I am only saying through reading the text that i have read and only understand through the classes post.

(Only way for me to quote via tablet, so excuse the quotations)

#10 RunningWolf251

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 11:36 PM

That would be like someone in Canada voting for the President of the United States. Just because they think they should have a say doesn't mean that do. They do not live in the US, and they do not know what is best for the country. The same logic applies here. If someone is not a Changeling themselves, they do not know what is best for the race as a whole, and they should NOT have a say that affects an entire group that they are not even a part of.

Considering the amount of changelings vs overall people and those it would still affect regardless of whether they were changelings or not, you have no right to say anyone else has no right to express their opinion on the matter.

 

Everything here affects everyone. Letting each race govern itself individually would be akin to saying "Let's separate freebuilders, builders, and admins into their own racial and classist tiers and then let freebuilder earth ponies dictate every aspect of the other two realms." You're leaving out every other facet of the same gem just so that the opinions of the few outrank the opinions of the many and so that your own opinion will carry more weight than anyone else's.

 

Leaving out the people who are disagreeing with it just means you only want people who agree with you to be able to vote. That still leaves the disagreement.



#11 Solice

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 11:46 PM

"The unlimited option is not over-powered since it does not fool mobs. The whole point of the unlimited disguise is for RP purposes, which most Changelings prefer. We can already fly, that is enough protection from mobs."
-senketsu
True, but if i had read correctly, the better your disguises you'll beable to fool mobs.

"Changeling

Changelings are a flying caster/melee hybrid class. They can freely transform into the shape of mobs, although at first their transformations are not good enough to fool real mobs. Although they take more damage than the other classes, they can keep themselves healthy with their life drain abilities, and can also fill their food bar off enemies. Furthermore, they are capable of spitting webs and encasing enemies in cocoons, and gain passive regeneration when deep beneath the surface. They are the only class that can eat meat."
-seabreeze

As I have read from the classes, i can only assume that the better your transformation the better to fool mobs. I am only saying through reading the text that i have read and only understand through the classes post.

(Only way for me to quote via tablet, so excuse the quotations)

 

I think you are confused about how the skill works. You do not upgrade your disguise skill. You spend one point for disguise I, and that only fools players. You spend one more skill point, and you get disguise II, which fools mobs as well. There is no way to further upgrade the disguise skill.

 

Also, just because the description seems to suggest something does not mean that Tsar can't change it. 

 

Like I said earlier, please consider that you may not know what is best for the Changelings unless you are actually one of them.


 

Considering the amount of changelings vs overall people and those it would still affect regardless of whether they were changelings or not, you have no right to say anyone else has no right to express their opinion on the matter.

 

Everything here affects everyone. Letting each race govern itself individually would be akin to saying "Let's separate freebuilders, builders, and admins into their own racial and classist tiers and then let freebuilder earth ponies dictate every aspect of the other two realms." You're leaving out every other facet of the same gem just so that the opinions of the few outrank the opinions of the many and so that your own opinion will carry more weight than anyone else's.

 

Leaving out the people who are disagreeing with it just means you only want people who agree with you to be able to vote. That still leaves the disagreement.

 

Of course Changelings should get more of a say than other races, that's the whole point of this poll. The Changelings are who this affects the most, because the colonization world is mainly non-pvp. 



#12 Sammich

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 01:10 AM

Whether the world is PvP or PvE is completely irrelevant. You live in a world with other races. That means whatever changes you make to yourselves effects those other races. If I, as an Earth Pony, were to take away my skill to plant apples trees, that would effect not just me but everyone else around me. No one would have access to apples and people would, in turn, starve to death more often. This isn't a perfect metaphor, as there are other food sources, but the point remains. What you do to yourself effects everyone around you.



#13 Seabreeze

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 01:11 AM

Other people can have a say, as some people have expressed annoyance at changelings being disguised all the time.



#14 Solice

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 01:45 AM

Other people can have a say, as some people have expressed annoyance at changelings being disguised all the time.

 

That should be addressed as a maturity issue. If someone is purposely spamming the disguise all the time just to make other players angry, then they should be punished accordingly.

 

Also, it seems I was misunderstood in my original point. I do not mean to say that others cannot have an opinion or have input, but I think ultimately the voting itself should be only done by Changelings.

 

Edit: One more thing I want to add. Tsar, please at least consider what I'm about to say for a moment before shutting it down.

 

This is, above all else, an RP world. It's a reenactment of the early settlement of Equestria carried out by the members of Brohoof. In canon, the Changelings' main form of defense, offense, and almost all ways of interacting with other races is through their disguises. Their entire race is named after the ability to "Change" shapes. There has never been any indication in the show that disguising themselves took any kind of extra effort or energy, which shows that they are able to change at will, whenever they want, and for however long they wish.

 

The web, drain, flight, and leech abilities are all secondary compared to the ability to disguise themselves as something else. What I'm trying to say is that it seems ridiculous to do something like this to the one ability that makes a Changeling a Changeling. That is their whole purpose, to disguise.


Edited by Senketsu, 14 April 2014 - 01:56 AM.


#15 мαяє-ισиєттє

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 04:15 AM

And steal love. And put ponies into cocoons.



#16 RunningWolf251

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 04:50 AM

That should be addressed as a maturity issue. If someone is purposely spamming the disguise all the time just to make other players angry, then they should be punished accordingly.

 

Also, it seems I was misunderstood in my original point. I do not mean to say that others cannot have an opinion or have input, but I think ultimately the voting itself should be only done by Changelings.

You start the third sentence above by saying people should have input, but then saying they shouldn't have access to the input to have an opinion. Come on, wtf man? I don't think the maturity of non-changeling players is the issue here. A mature person hears both sides of the story and accepts that not everyone agrees with them and that one single opinion cannot rule the opinions of others. Arguing over personal rights is stupid anyways. We've got the right to say one way or the other and influence how the game is played for everyone, both for present and future players. And don't even start on the spamming of the disguise. You broke into my house, knowing full well it was against the rules to break down a wall to get past a locked door, and then disguised after I told you to leave. I don't recollect an apology either. It's obviously something you can just use to hide behind when you've done wrong.

 

Back on topic for everyone else and correct me if I'm wrong, but I understood the way the show depicted the changelings as having to take love 'energy' from nearby ponies in order to keep their shape shifted. In any case, it seems like something so mentally demanding as changing a physical shape would require something else to keep it going and not just reverting back. Whether that be a leech spell that works on all mobs as it is now in addition to leeching a changing energy, a leech related to the fangs that requires the bat to be close to a non-changeling human-played character and then use it, or their hunger level depleting faster than normal as it does with pegasi during flight. If the third, then the leech spell will already work with bringing back hunger.



#17 Hepolite

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 11:40 AM

You start the third sentence above by saying people should have input, but then saying they shouldn't have access to the input to have an opinion. Come on, wtf man? I don't think the maturity of non-changeling players is the issue here. A mature person hears both sides of the story and accepts that not everyone agrees with them and that one single opinion cannot rule the opinions of others.

As far as I can tell, the main concern people have about a everlasting disguise is that it allows one to cause grief, in the form of annoying other people and causing damage under the cover of the disguise. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. To me, it seems that people who aren't affected a lot by this poll votes "limited time" just because they think that is the lesser evil, when in truth, it's maybe not that way. I have a hard time seeing any reason why a permanent disguise (that doesn't fool mobs) is so evil and overpowered that no changeling should ever be allowed to have it, other than the strength of using it in a PvP situation, which I will address later.

 

The point that Solic was making about maturity isn't about this discussion, but more of how people act while on the server; mature players knows what they shouldn't do and they don't do any of that. It's obvious if someone tells you to leave, you do. You don't disguise and sit around. However, there will always be those who does go too far. They should be punished accordingly to what they did. Nonetheless, this applies to all races, given that potion of invisibility is available. If someone enters my home and I tell them the leave, I expect them to do so and not use the potion to turn invisible.

 

And don't even start on the spamming of the disguise. You broke into my house, knowing full well it was against the rules to break down a wall to get past a locked door, and then disguised after I told you to leave. I don't recollect an apology either. It's obviously something you can just use to hide behind when you've done wrong.

Log any such incident and report to admins. The disguise doesn't prevent log entries from being added while disguised, it's also possible to determine who is in the disguise. This also includes those using the disguise to obviously anger or annoy someone else.

 

Back on topic for everyone else and correct me if I'm wrong, but I understood the way the show depicted the changelings as having to take love 'energy' from nearby ponies in order to keep their shape shifted. In any case, it seems like something so mentally demanding as changing a physical shape would require something else to keep it going and not just reverting back. Whether that be a leech spell that works on all mobs as it is now in addition to leeching a changing energy, a leech related to the fangs that requires the bat to be close to a non-changeling human-played character and then use it, or their hunger level depleting faster than normal as it does with pegasi during flight. If the third, then the leech spell will already work with bringing back hunger.

Exactly how changelings are depicted is open for discussion. The amount of canon material to work with isn't extremely large, but I can't remember any scene, in either the show or the comic, where changelings have a hard time using a disguise. Quite the contrary, I specifically remember one changeling altering the disguise several times in a rapid succession without showing any visible strain. As for duration, Chrysalis herself remained disguised for a very long time. Granted, she's the queen, but that doesn't rule out that any changeling can do the same.

 

While this doesn't carry nearly as much weight as the canon, in fanon, it's generally accepted that changelings are able to disguise for an unlimited amount of time, provided a source of energy (Often referred to as the "love" energy, but in general emotional energy), however, changing disguise several times quickly does takes a slight toll. Without a energy source, they are running on "batteries" which has a fair amount of duration, often depicted as many days and weeks, and in some cases, even months and years.

 

---

 

As for the ability itself when it comes to the server, it will be tremendously useful for RP purposes as a much more longer-lasting and more flexible, as in being able to change disguise at will, whenever one wants to. This is a very important thing to consider, given that the whole world is basically a giant RP, player interaction is much more important than mob interaction, in my opinion. As such, limiting the disguise with a time limit makes this interaction with players much, much harder.

 

Now, don't get me wrong - I mean this as in players all participating in a roleplay together and already agreed to some rules, not as the changeling just jumping right into an existing roleplay and being obnoxious. An example of a proper use could a changeling being disguised as a pet, or is going incognito into a town or needs to infiltrate and obtain some secret information. The time limit would effectively make any such situations very, very hard to do, if not completely impossible. I dare say that unlimited disguise would be in benefit for the server and the  population as a whole, given the focus on roleplay, not combat.

 

Also, in the case of a PvP situation, the disguise would be strong. However, then there's the potion of invisibility, which is even better to use, because it renders the user completely invisible. The disguise merely leaves a user a smaller target which is harder to see, sure, but it's not as good as the potion itself. The potion itself is harder to get a hold of, but not impossible, but this does allow for a fair fight, well, as fair as it can given the various abilities of the classes.

 

Nonetheless, the permanent disguise isn't as powerful as it may seem in my opinion, there are ways to match it and even get something better, and it would provide very good options for roleplays. A temporary disguise would be better in a PvE situation, where the enemy is a mob (And only that situation, as far as I can tell), but that's not the point of this world and as such I feel that option is limiting the enjoyment one can have as a changeling here, as well as what one can provide as a changeling in terms of roleplay.

 

EDIT: Corrected a few sentences and words.


Edited by Hepolite, 14 April 2014 - 12:51 PM.


#18 Splash

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:11 PM

I have a suggestion, should you find a plug-in for it.

 

Transformation should drain some kind of "Love Energy",a little like mana, which you have to get from mobs or players (players must consent first).

It should gradually lose energy over time- the more of this 'love energy' you have , the more convincing the disguise. However, should you keep a certain level of the 'love energy' going, you can stay transformed indefinitely. This adds some kind of challenge to players to stay transformed.

 

This would address any problems of Changelings refusing to drop disguises and staying in restricted areas, whilst staying in cannon.



#19 Blazuhira Miller

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:28 PM

I honestly think the infinite disguise thing is best.

 

I mean, in the show, the changelings can't really imitate any of the mannerisms, they even think fluttershy punching the air is a changeling-like thing to do, even if disguised. They wouldn't be able to fool mobs out of a lack of cues, like, they won't make zombie noises, they'll all look off slightly, they won't operate on any of the behaviours mobs possess (in roleplay, not the actual game).

 

I'd like to imagine the disguise as a spying system. A changeling could be a background pony in the show, so it should be like that. No one suspects the zombie in the mine to be a spy, after all.



#20 Hepolite

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 02:15 PM

Another thing to note, is that the disguise that fools mobs is way too good in dungeons. Even if the disguise lasts a minute, that is enough time to run into a dungeon, find the chest with the most loot and raid it and be out before the time runs out, breaking all dungeons there is. In the situations when there's not enough time to reach the best chest that is the most protected, one can (usually easily) fight through the mobs to that room and disguise before going in here, then every mob would ignore the changeling where they really should see it. The result is that any changeling will get the best loot for free.

If the disguise lasts a minute or less, it's pretty much completely useless for anything other than exploiting this trick; there's no viable options that I can see other than that. As long as the disguise fools mobs, it will give changelings a serious advantage in dungeons. This is something that inherently comes from being able to fool mobs. Further reducing the duration of the disguise would just make it completely useless in every situation, thus remove the core of the whole class.

 

Removing the mob fooling properties and keeping the time limit is definitely going to be a killing blow to the ability. Doesn't matter how long the ability lasts, too short and it's of no use at all, otherwise it would just be annoying. The ability running out of time would constantly interrupt any attempt of utilizing that ability in an RP setting.



#21 Squint

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:51 PM

Guys, I don't think how things appeared in the show really matter here. Everyone's getting their vote and I'm oh-so-sorry if the poll isn't leaning in your favour, but tough luck.



#22 Seabreeze

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 03:08 PM

Ending this poll. Although it leaned slightly in favor of the first option, the second group has made the better argument. I will point out however, that if you want unlimited disguises for roleplaying, I better see some actual roleplaying. There's been pretty much none on the server so far. 

 

Changelings with the Transform II skill removed may post here to regain that class point.



#23 Hepolite

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 03:57 PM

Guys, I don't think how things appeared in the show really matter here. Everyone's getting their vote and I'm oh-so-sorry if the poll isn't leaning in your favour, but tough luck.

Maybe things do matter, maybe they don't, that's not too important at the moment. Given that this poll has been so even all the way, one can with a good certainty say that there's about equally many on either side of this debate, so that doesn't concern me too much. By the way, this passive-aggressive tone of yours isn't necessary, it looks like you're gloating over the results.

 

Ending this poll. Although it leaned slightly in favor of the first option, the second group has made the better argument. I will point out however, that if you want unlimited disguises for roleplaying, I better see some actual roleplaying. There's been pretty much none on the server so far. 

 

Changelings with the Transform II skill removed may post here to regain that class point.

Thank you for ending this before things got too heated. It might be worth noting that the world is still young, not everyone has been able to finish their settlements/cities or even settled down just yet and new people are still arriving. I'm sure that over time RP will become more predominant.

 

It would be great to have that skill point refunded. By the way, not sure if you forgot about it or already have some plans, but the skill tech tree currently adds up to 39 instead of 40 skill points.
 


Edited by Hepolite, 15 April 2014 - 03:59 PM.


#24 Gigavoltz

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 04:19 PM

I too need my skilpoint refunded. 



#25 Solice

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 11:05 PM

I would like my skill point refunded please.



#26 Super Ultra Uber C00l Dood

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 02:28 PM

Yes, I also need a refund on the skillpoint.



#27 Sylaek

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 04:28 AM

It's a little late, but I spend a point in Transformation II - I'd very much appreciate it if it could be refunded when you have the time.



#28 DaBethster

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 04:57 PM

Uhm... I know this is late.. but what if changelings had two spells and they could just choose which one they want to use?

Or if they're the same spell but you could switch between modes...

S-sorry for barging in....

Please forgive me...


Edited by DaBethster, 21 April 2014 - 04:58 PM.


#29 Owl Parchment (Athena)

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 11:17 PM

Uhm... I know this is late.. but what if changelings had two spells and they could just choose which one they want to use?

Or if they're the same spell but you could switch between modes...

S-sorry for barging in....

Please forgive me...

 

^ Yes. Like the 'Transformation' and 'Transformation II'

 

The first one would be just to fool players, infinitely.

 

The second would be to fool mobs, for a short amount of time.


Edited by Owl Parchment (Athena), 21 April 2014 - 11:17 PM.


#30 DaBethster

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 06:21 PM

I do like that idea :3



#31 Herpy__Dooves

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 12:35 AM

Can we stop the voting on this now that its done?




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