
| Anonymous #88537 1 year ago |
This is too busy to be an Advice pony. I don't disagree with any of the text, just the format. |
| Anonymous #88539 1 year ago |
Celestia is a terrible tyrant if you over analyze her.
I hope Season 2 can make her a bit nicer, it's actually a bit sad to see so much hate, to a charachter that was supposed to be nice. |
| Anonymous #88544 1 year ago |
1. -> Episode 1
2. -> Twilight in Episode 2 3. -> Twilight in 'Feeling Pinkie Keen' 3a. -> End of 'Feeling Pinkie Keen' EVERYTHING MAKES SENSE |
| Anonymous #88548 1 year ago |
That is why celestia is amazing. She combines the ruthlessness of Machiavelli with the kindness of a surrogate mother. |
| Skipta #88549 1 year ago |
^^ It's not hate. Tyrants can be cool in a show too. Especially when everypony would have to be so mistaken about them. :) |
| Skipta #88550 1 year ago |
+^ more. |
| Skipta #88558 1 year ago |
But really, she seems more of a benign ruler with a penchant for pranks. Keep in mind that a world forged by evolution isn't a kind and fluffy world, it's forged with tooth and claw - so the Everfree forest would be scary to them because they're in an engineered utopia. Enlightened Despotism and what-have-you.
She did seem to raise the sun in the Origin story in a manner different to a parlor trick (it suddenly flies up in unison with her). Twilight is a lot happier now and she still studies all the time, it's more of a Blog-diary she keeps with the princess. But yeah, the Pinkie Keen episode was pretty messed up. It's also a very bad Aesop for the kids. It does get very annoying to never, ever see rational skepticism depicted as a good thing in the media. The skeptic is always wrong and the incredulous ones are always right. Y'know, as opposed to reality when they never show anything as true. Sigh. When you're tailoring your stories to also apply to the real world too you can't base the show endings on "It's magic, I ain't gotta explain shit!". :P |
| Anonymous #88560 1 year ago |
Anon2: It's her sugarcoated tyranny and mischeavousness that makes her a good character (my favorite), without that she'd be very boring. |
| emeriin #88563 1 year ago |
The moral for Feeling Pinkie Keen really wasn't that bad. I took it as "there are some things in the world you can't explain, so just enjoy them for what they are". It's cynical to believe there was an anti-atheism message. |
| Anonymous #88565 1 year ago |
This is overdoing it. It's not punchy enough. |
| Skipta #88572 1 year ago |
*credulous
My bad. Inverted the meaning of the base word. Not native speaker n' all. :)= |
| PynkyPy #88574 1 year ago |
I know Celestia well enough to say she is no tyrannical leader. She is kind and generous, dosen't mind safe, harmless pranks. Anyways, to me, it looks like all the ponies rule themselves. She is mostly a head figure they look up to or go to for help. She has all the power of the Queen of England. Which is pretty much none, but people still listen to her advice and look up to her! :) |
| Skipta #88584 1 year ago |
I didn't say anti-Atheism, I said anti-Skepticism. There's a big difference there. A message of "Gullibility is good" is not a good Aesop. It was that there are things that can't be explained but are still just "true", not that you yourself might not be able to wrap your head around them. If it was the latter then it's fine, no one can be an expert at everything, but it was that one should accept things for no good reason.
I accept a lot of things as part of a consensus as likely the case that I don't understand, but I don't believe in them either. Understanding what is evident is a necessary component of believing in it. I imagine that's the case for a lot of people with stuff like Quantum Mechanics without saying it's false. :) |
| Anonymous #88587 1 year ago |
Basically, Celestia is Niyazov. |
| Skipta #88590 1 year ago |
@Pinky: Yeah, she does seem to rule with a very light hand and leave most stuff to local officials, only to intervene when there's some big situations (besides leaving the cosmic evil at the hands of teenagers not withstanding :P ).
One would hope their tax-money at least pays for some social programs, though, given the palace she lives in. :U |
| TooOldForThisShow #88601 1 year ago |
You're applying real-world political concepts to a world where you can defeat a dragon by crossing your arms and giving it a stern lecture. |
| Anonymous #88622 1 year ago |
And thinking up alternative interpretations of media is a time-honoured tradition, anyway. We all know how things are supposed to be in the setting. It's still fun to come up with bizarre theories that are still logically consistent. |
| PynkyPy #88623 1 year ago |
Thats because Humans, or any animal for that matter cannot think outside their realm of their experience. Whether or not the show people realized it or not, they were subconsciously putting real world stuff into it. Like personalities, social structure, power anarchy, ect.... |
| Anonymous #88638 1 year ago |
Uhhh... you do realize the SUN FAILED TO RISE when NMM got loose, right? |
| Anonymous #88643 1 year ago |
^ Or did it? Celestia could have been intentionally keeping it down. |
| Skipta #88652 1 year ago |
^ Which means she still controls the sun. The Everfree forest shows us that the world can work as it does for us if left to it's own devices. The point of Pony society in this regard would be engineering their own environment to get rid of the stuff not benefiting them. Now that's a message I can support. Long live Biodomes on Mars! :D |
| Cerulean #88659 1 year ago |
I know that one can't expect a show to be perfect and consistent all the time, but it's fun to make up theories that force it to make sense. That's what all this fannish stuff is for. And it's going to be a long summer.
The next time an episode starts with "Written by Dave Polsky" (Feeling Pinkie Keen, Over a Barrel) I will get ready for a sloppy plot about a completely undisguised real-world conflict that spends the whole episode establishing that both sides have solid reasons not to give up their position, then resolves it at the very end by having someone suddenly give up their deeply-held principles because the clock is running out. But there will be lots of fun for the animators with wacky Looney-Tunes-style gags. And I will enjoy the wacky gags and sigh at the end and remember that all the writers are different. |
| Anonymous #88776 1 year ago |
Oh brother...people reading a subtext into "Feeling Pinkie Keen" that isn't there? AGAIN?
The message wasn't "believe everything without question or skepticism" (in fact, you'll notice that Twilight did, in fact, try to actively study and understand the phenomenon). The message was to "listen to your friend's experiences and try to learn from them with an open mind" . This is from Faust herself. I can agree with that message. In fact, when I saw the episode that is exactly the message I got. This whole "it promotes religion/denounces skepticism" argument is ridiculous. It's like the argument that Teletubbies was a homoerotic children's show or that David the Gnome advocated religious terrorism: utter nonsense. The worst part? The majority (though not all) of the people raising this particular stink are Atheists like me. Do you have any idea how fucking embarrassing that is? Guys, we're better than this and yet here we have those amongst our number taking a page out of Jerry Falwell's playbook? I liked "Feeling Pinkie Keen". In fact, it was one of my favorite episodes. You are free to not like the episode. You are to not like the message. But please, don't twist the message into something that it is not, just because of your ideological hang-ups. It demeans us all. |
| TooOldForThisShow #88850 1 year ago |
I also got the impression it was meant to be a "trust your friends" kind of deal, but Twilight's message at the end sounded so hamfisted to me. I don't think it communicated what the episode was supposed to be about well. |
| Skipta #88873 1 year ago |
..Again, I never said that, so stop trying to lump everyone who doesn't agree with you into one group. The episode is undeniable anti-Skeptic. It wasn't "Twilight was right for doing what she did, but was mistaken" or anything like that. You can't have everything in the episode directly agree with what is being "interpreted into it" and then say "But Lauren said that wasn't the intention, so that isn't the message". If loads of adults are seeing the episode like that, do you not think that's what kids see too? It's either a Bad Aesop or a Broken one, in either case it's not a good one.
I personally didn't dislike the episode. There's plenty of good non-skeptic TV out there that I enjoy on it's own merits. I just facepalmed about it being yet another "The skeptic is always wrong for no reason" stories. How about you show how it ISN'T against being a skeptic instead of just saying "NO UR WRONG"? Most of the strawmen skeptics you see in fiction obviously try to disprove a phenomenon. THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE THERE FOR, doofus. The point is they are always wrong, always the "idiot" character for even bothering when you should just "take it on faith" and supposed to demean the stance. That doesn't mean the skeptic should be right in fiction, however. Having the skeptic search for evidence, find it and then change his mind is also a good depiction, since that's what a true skeptic actually does. But she didn't actually find evidence for the cause of the observed phenomenon, it was literally "It's alright to just accept it because that's what my friend thinks". Yeah, group-pressure is a good motivator.. Can you not accept that it's a bad or broken Aesop? Or are you saying there was a good one in there? Because I haven't seen it. If Lauren said that was the intent then that just means it's a broken Aesop since the episode itself does not give that impression (and Dave Polsky being by far the most real-life influenced writer, as noted above). |
| Anonymous #88941 1 year ago |
^"How about you show how it ISN'T against being a skeptic instead of just saying "NO UR WRONG"?"
Dude/dudette...whatever you are Skipta. Anon 4, already demonstrated why that's not so with the above example. Twilight DID attempt to understand the phenomenon to the best of her ability and her investigative prowess. Ultimately finding that he results, for now, were inconclusive. She hasn't given up, she just finds that trying to learn from PPs experience and trusting in her friend (note it is not "believing in her friend's interpretation", just trusting that her friend is not knowingly lying to her) will help her in understanding the phenomenon from a different angle. This is what a skeptic does, it's the point of having an open mind. She isn't agreeing with it, she just isn't sure what she's dealing with and is trying to gather evidence before making a call. From where I stand, it seems that that only person screaming "no ur wrong" and "lumping people together" is you, Skip. Not to mention calling people names ("doofus" really? Come now) doesn't exactly help your case. I think you are the one who needs to prove your case. The previous anon seems to have made a good point. |
| Anonymous #88979 1 year ago |
^Sorry, I meant "Anon 11". That's I get for posting while talking to someone on the phone. |
| Skipta #88986 1 year ago |
Except you haven't provided any examples. The entire episode was against what she was trying to do. How could something possibly show a skeptic in a bad light with having them try to be skeptical? It's a necessary part of any such premise and therefore it is doofus-y to say that. Do you really take doofus to be some big insult? I've only ever seen it in chats to basically go "Oh, you're so silly". o_o
I also think it's pretty clear that she's supposed to be a "convert" by the show's end. Wearing the hat to make a point, actually saying "You have to choose to believe in it, with a friend to show you the way". You're the one that seems to have to interpret things into it by all stretch of the imagination. They simply did not say those things. Broken Aesop. |
| Skipta #88991 1 year ago |
And you're not Anon11? That was what I was speaking to with the preceding message. |
| Anonymous #89060 1 year ago |
The problem with the episode is how it portrays science. Intentional or not, it perpetuates the stereotype that Big Science is a close-minded, dogmatic, inflexible worldview which arbitrarily excludes certain types of evidence as being "unscientific" and is enraged at the many aspects of reality which lie outside its limited horizons.
Note when Twilight brought Pinkie into a laboratory to gather unspecified "scientific" evidence. She failed, and assumed that Pinkie's senses couldn't exist for that reason. Implication: There are "supernatural" things that can't be explained by science because they're too special to leave scientific evidence (how this differs from evidence in general is unclear). Her other "experiments" follow the same pattern. They do not conform to any real version of science, instead consisting of her following Pinkie around (and calling her silly "scientific" names) in hopes that she will mess up, thereby "disproving" her sense completely. Twilight ends up humiliated and repeatedly injured for her trouble. The one time it fails, Twilight goes on a huge rant about how stupid it is to believe in anything that doesn't exist right in front of your eyes, another common misrepresentation of science. Then she has to take a "leap of faith" to save her life. In other words, she has to abandon her closed worldview and accept that a consistently repeating pattern is evidence of something behind said pattern. This is exactly how real science works, but apparently the opposite of how Twilight's science works. And to finish it all off, she learns that there are things in the world that can't be explained or studied and you have to choose to believe in them. It should be obvious what's wrong with this. You can say "well, that's not real science", and it isn't, but the episode said it was, repeatedly, and never corrected itself. Rather than saying "Ignoring evidence that doesn't fit your preconceptions isn't being a proper scientist", it ends up as "You should base your worldview on evidence and logic instead of being a stupid, small-minded, short-tempered scientist". That's what's wrong with it. |
| Anonymous #89064 1 year ago |
^The line was "a friend can help you decide whether to believe in it or not". Which is true, a friend's experiences can be useful in gathering data and making decisions. Doesn't mean you believe what they believe without question.
She investigated the claim and found that the data was inconclusive. Her only problem was that she began to believe that Pinkie Pie was willfully lying to her and trying to hurt her, leading her to disregard her friend and shut out her experience as being worthless (a bad practice when you are trying to gather info). Hence the message. It's obvious by shows end she just doesn't know either way. She's Agnostic about the whole thing (hence the line "whether to believe in it or not"). It's pretty obvious. It seems you are the one trying to reinterpret things by "all stretches of the imagination" (as exemplified by your rant before which seems to be more about issues with media itself than it does this show). |
| Anonymous #89066 1 year ago |
^Above line was for Skipta. |
| Anonymous #89125 1 year ago |
tl;dr |
| Anonymous #89148 1 year ago |
itt: let's argue over a kids' show episode that the creator didn't realise the full implications of |
| Cerulean #89453 1 year ago |
^^^^ "It just means you have to choose to believe in them. And sometimes it takes a friend to show you the way." That's the actual quote from the episode; I went to YouTube and checked, because I trust the method of direct observation. The word "whether" is strikingly absent. You changed it in your mind because you wanted it to match what you believed. |
| Anonymous #89696 1 year ago |
Cerulean, isn't that what everyone in here is doing? :P
You guys are all silly. Lighten up already, you're making the atmosphere around here unfriendly. |
| Anonymous #90596 1 year ago |
What in the Samual Langhorn hell is WRONG with you people, why are you over-analyzing a show about magical talking ponies which can use their hooves and mouths the way we bipedal sorts use our hands and thumbs. |
| fixman88 #91138 1 year ago |
It might behoove (pun intended) everyone here to remember the MST3K Mantra: 'It's just a show, you should really just relax.' |
| Skipta #91550 1 year ago |
^ No, it does not apply here. I relax just fine when watching the show and I enjoyed the episode. The problem is with the actual Aesop of the episode, which isn't something to just "Eh.. Whatever" away. Just because people can be laid back and watch something that promotes a bad idea doesn't mean they should just shut up about it. |
| Anonymous #91756 1 year ago |
Oh, Skipta. You so silly. |
| Anonymous #91770 1 year ago |
Above anon is full of rage.
Intentional or not, "joking" or not, fiction does have messages in it that influence how we view the world. The creators understand that; there's no reason to deny it. inb4 magical talking ponyland. That doesn't mean logic doesn't apply. |
| DragonRage #91852 1 year ago |
http://www.mastermarf.com/2011/03/feeling-pinkie-keen-controversy.html
My own thoughts: Somebody ought to rewrite Twilight's summary of the episode's moral to better match what was intended. I would, but <lame excuses>. |
| Skipta #91939 1 year ago |
Yeah, I'm glad to hear that Lauren didn't approve of the either broken or accidental Aesop (that depends on my next paragraph on the writer) since that means it isn't part of their "vision" and they'd be more self-aware about it afterward which is a great result of pointing it out.
What I'd be most interested in would be Dave Polsky response, if he's given one, to such inquiries. Since his position is really what determines if it's Accidental or Broken. I dunno anything about him, so I don't know if he really talks about stuff. |
| Anonymous #594938 9 months ago |
Surely the message for the Pinkie Sense episode should have been:
"It's okay for your friends to believe different things, even if they can't be proven as the truth. So long as they're still good friends what they believe doesn't matter." That Twilight "converted" to believing it rather than just accepting that it meant something to her friends and moving on (as said beliefs did no one any harm) seemed like a missed moral opportunity to me. |