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Anonymous
#549870
9 months ago
We only know that Discord was turned into stone. The others might be just real statues, not ponies-turned-into-stone.
Dinger
#549875
9 months ago
Well I did only mean to refer to Discord. Hence "enemy" and not "enemies" with Discord in the prominent position of the statues.
YetAnotherBrony
#549902
9 months ago
Well...nopony really knew that the Mare In The Moon was an actual being (until Nightmare Moon broke free). They all thought it was just a shape that looked like a pony from the craters on the moon.
Skipta
#549905
9 months ago
I wasn't aware the definition of tyranny had changed to "One who strikes down mighty foes of the realm, for the benefit of ones subjects, even when contrary to personal happiness".

I'm sure the chocolate milk industry was grateful, at the very least.
Drackolus
#549908
9 months ago
Luna and Celestia imprisoned Discord together...
NightJack
#549915
9 months ago
Ya, you did really pay attention to what they said in the episodes did you?
thatguy
#549932
9 months ago
It's no more tyrannical than putting an evil tyrant in stocks after liberating the people from them.
Dinger
#549995
9 months ago
tyrant (ˈtaɪrənt)
— n
1. a person who governs oppressively, unjustly, and arbitrarily; despot
2. any person who exercises authority in a tyrannical manner
3. anything that exercises tyrannical influence
4. (esp in ancient Greece) a ruler whose authority lacked the sanction of law or custom; usurper

According to definition 4, she is definately a tyrant. She overthrew Discord to take control of Equestria. She even did it through force of arms.
This was a full on Coup De tat, through force of arms.
NightJack
#550001
9 months ago
That can be debated Dinger, in history there are thous that have usurper the tyrant befor them(in this case Discord) and where fare rulers and not called tyrants them self.
AlCapony
#550006
9 months ago
^ That definition doesn't work with the argument you're trying to make in the picture, because NMM is wholly irrelevant to that point.
Also, it's obvious that you're aiming at the modern meaning of tyrant in the OP, so whipping out the ancient greek definition as "proof" is pretty much grasping at straws.
AlCapony
#550007
9 months ago
previous post in response to #549995
Kein
#550026
9 months ago
The more I know about this_fandom.png the more I sure there is TWO different shows we watch.
Kein
#550032
9 months ago
Also:
>artist:Dinger
...
what
TBTabby
#550035
9 months ago
If Princess Celestia discovered the cure for cancer, she'd be accused of tyrannically forcing the cancer researchers out of business to troll them.
Anonymous
#550087
9 months ago
Poor Celestia seems to have a bit of a public relations problem... XD
Sparkling
#550097
9 months ago
^a bit? ITS A HUGE PROBLEM! Now luna gets another good vieuw of her sis...
Anonymous
#550195
9 months ago
Meh, whatever, they're just ponies guys...
Anonymous
#550299
9 months ago
Kein, you seem to make many assumptions based on little evidence.

A) What evidence do you have that the ponies of Equestria look up to Celestia with admiration and not fear? Rainbow Dash thought that Celestia might banish her to the Everfree Forest if she didn't do well in the Young Fliers contest. Almost EVERYPONY was on extremely on edge when she visited during Bird in the Hoof. As far as Twilight goes, remember that she knows Celestia better than anypony. So when SHE thinks that Celestia might "imprison you in the place that she banished you", she could easily be serious. Celesta DID do exactly that to her own sister, after all.

B) The weather on that planet is fully capable of controlling itself in Celestia's absence, as evidenced by the EverFREE Forest. The problem is that everypony has gotten so used to her totalitarian control of everything that it's not questioned anymore. Seriously, she's even enslaved the local forces of nature (which her subjects help her with!)

B) I have NO idea where you arrived at this conclusion. In what way is Celestia "inactive"? She personally keeps an eye on Ponyville via Twilight's letters. She personally went to Phillidelphia to help with the parasprites. Even though she didn't show up personally, she was still active in making sure the sleeping dragon was removed. So ... could you elaborate on the point you're trying to make, here?

D) Since we almost always see Celestia from other pony's points of view, we have almost no idea what she's "really like". We only see her official persona. (I would very much like to see a "day in the life of Celestia" episode!). Personally, I do see arrogance, but the only scene that could be used to show that right now is when she arrives in Fall Weather Friends. That look she gave the bowing ponies was chilling!

E) You see "making time for other ponies". I see "Big Brother is watching you." Again, there is very little evidence either way.

F) Yes, she PUBLICLY forgave Luna, but we won't know for sure until we know what ACTUALLY happened to her. It still seems kind of fishy that Luna has not been seen or heard from since. As far as "not wanting to imprison her", where's your evidence?! The only thing we have to go off is Twilight's history book which was probably written by (or at the authority of) Celestia. Remember, the tool that Celestia used to BANISH NMM was later used to simply CURE her.
Anonymous
#550308
9 months ago
Kein, it's really not mature to insult people just because you don't like their opinions or because you think they made a mistake. You're welcome to make counterpoints to arguments, but calling somebody "autistic" because they claimed artistry is very bad form. Is there no love or tolerance in your soul?

You also show a great disservice to autistic people by using their affliction as a generic insult.
Anonymous
#550324
9 months ago
^BWAHAHAHA
What point are YOU trying to make? Your second B (should be a C) basixcally says that 'hey Celestia does protect the ponies. Which breaks the rest of your arguments.
Also all of Keins points are taking directly from canon. Yours are taken from fanon. That means he's right and you're wrong. Thank you for playing.
Anonymous
#550330
9 months ago
^
Wait wtf , what arguments ? Kein just posted two pic .......
Anonymous
#550333
9 months ago
Ninja'ed by another anon. It was a response to 299.
Anonymous
#550346
9 months ago
Even tyrants have a vested interest in keeping their populations safe from undue harm. The point I'm making is that Celestia's Equestria is a totalitarian regime. She controls EVERY aspect of it. She controls the people and the animals. She controls politics. She controls the weather. Her goal seems to be "utopia", but that doesn't mean that she's good. If you don't understand this point, then perhaps you should research the ways in which Utopian societies are generally considered bad ideas. There are plenty of books, movies and essays that speculate about the premise. Here's a hint: utopias and free will are not compatible.

Both of Kein's points and my own are opinions based on evidence. The evidence that I cited comes from the show itself, NOT the fanon.

No, you don't win just because you say you do.
togashimenai
#550414
9 months ago
All other arguments aside, Celestia DID put the former leader of land on display in her garden. She also put her co-ruler on display in the moon. Tyranny is debatable, but facts are facts.

Personally, I choose "Tyranny", because it's more fun!
d715
#550655
9 months ago
Celestia should only be a tyran/troll wend its played for laughs

canon wise she's a kind faird ruler and only idiots who want MLP to be GRIMDARK think otherwise, like that anon who keeps bitching about Kein.

I mean

A) Rainbow Dash was having a nervous breakdown, she wasn't thinking straight.

B) The Everfree Forest is the ONE place where ponies don't control the weather, the result is they veiw is as unnatural (Think like in 'I Am Legion' how the one human, in a world of vampires is now the monster)

C) Twilight's letter are just what she learned about friendship, you know what Twilight says in the end of each episode that's it. Also parasprites attacking a town/city would be something she would get involed with, we saw what parasprites are capable of.

E, you yes because she clearly has uther moties for having Brunch with her student and her friends.

F, Luna is returning next week. Also since Luna was also connected to the EoH while she was evil then its fair to say her EoH wasn't working right, the result was a botch cure.
zer0-0ne
#550842
9 months ago
I don't think Celestia would have been very popular if she did nothing while Discord and Nightmare Moon destroyed the world.
dzamie
#550846
9 months ago
@Dinger995: *coup d'etat
Qev
#551007
9 months ago
Overthrowing the standing government by force of arms isn't unlawful, provided you win. I mean, seriously... XD
togashimenai
#551025
9 months ago
d715: A) Every time ANY pony mentions Celestian punishment, they always mentions "banishment and/or imprisonment. In fact, those are the only two punishments we've ever seen.

B) We have no idea how large or widespread Equestria is. It could be a nation or the entire world. It's entirely possible that Celestia's zone of control is fairly limited. We just don't have enough information at this time. What we DO know is that nature IS capable of taking care of itself, which puts Celestia's control into "totalitarian" territory.

E) She mostly likely DID have ulterior motives in that episode. A careful analysis indicates that her entire goal might have been to teach Fluttershy a lesson about being overly kind. It's a good Aesop, but her approach was very heavy handed. That's kind of besides the point, though. The main point is that Celestia knows everything that's happening in her realm and has a personal hoof in controlling every aspect of pony's lives. Ponies that stray from her rules are imprisoned and/or banished ... or at least that's the common belief IN CANON.

F) Your analysis is pure conjecture. To be fair, so is my own. We'll have to wait until after Luna's episode to make any more determinations on this point.

zer0-One: Discord wasn't "destroying the world". He was the RULER of his domain (and had presumably been for some time). There is no evidence that he is or was evil. In fact, he went out of his way to defeat Twilight and friends WITHOUT harming them. His world is a chaotic one, but it's not a *bad* one. Heck, Pinkie seemed to like it!

This isn't a case of Discord is evil and Celestia is good. This is a case where Discord represents Chaos and Celestia represents Law. Look around, Celestia's Equestria is VERY orderly. EVERYTHING (even nature) is always exactly perfect. This is NOT a good thing. It's as unbalanced as Discord's system. Just because we haven't seen the problems that her reign has most likely caused doesn't mean they don't exist.
togashimenai
#551053
9 months ago
Qev: That made me chuckle. Of course the winner writes the history books. When the USA broke away from England, it was pure treason ... until we won. Then it was a successful rebellion! Of course, if the leader OF that rebellion crowns himself as monarch, it still fits under the original definition of tyrant.
AlCapony
#551299
9 months ago
"There is no evidence that he is or was evil. In fact, he went out of his way to defeat Twilight and friends WITHOUT harming them. His world is a chaotic one, but it's not a *bad* one. Heck, Pinkie seemed to like it!"

Did you watch the same show as everyone else? You know, the one where Discord brainwashed the mane 6 to make them fight and hate each others guts? Psychological violence is still violence.

Besides that, your argumentation for Celestia being a tyrant is flimsy at best, based on extreme interpretations of the most minor details (e.g. asuming that Celestia had ulterior motives to teach Fluttershy [for which there is no real proof], and jumping from there to the conclusion that she micromanages everyone's lives), or simply choosing the worst possible interpretation where there is no information (e.g. "Just because we haven't seen the problems that her reign has most likely caused doesn't mean they don't exist.").
Anonymous
#551496
9 months ago
From Discord's point of view, the land of Equestria is rightfully his, since Celestia DID usurp it from him. So to Discord, Twilight and friends are enemies that needed to be defeated. His methods were possibly the least violent they could be while still achieving the result of getting his country back.

There is little proof that Celestia micromanages lives, but Equestria IS micromanaged via the ponies. The weather, the animals and the plants are are strictly controlled. It's unlikely that this was the case BEFORE Celestia's rule. It does appear to be the case that it's not needed, though.

As far as Celetia's motives at the party, there is no *proof*, but there is evidence. I think it's strong evidence, but it doesn't really matter.

The question here seems to be whether Celestia is a bad ruler or not. Equestria is a land of order. I think it's EXTREME order, considering the whole nature/animal/plant thing. However, all the creatures SEEM to be happy with the situation. What we seem to have here is a utopia that actually works. However, it only works because the author SAYS it works. The only way to break it down would be to apply realistic logic to a cartoon meant for little girls.

So CANON Celestia is probably not a tyrant. A more realistic version of Celestia probably WOULD be a tyrant.

Not that it matters. It's an amusing debate, but nothing more serious than that. The uploader made a funny observation to support an established meme. Let's just laugh at it. hahaha, good one.
Doctor_Whooves
#551512
9 months ago
She's not a tyrant, but putting Discord on display in her garden was kind of a dick move.

I'd be all for Luna taking centre stage for a while. She deserves it, and anyway she's much prettier than her garish sister, lol.
YenaMuffin
#551538
9 months ago
Canon overrides fanon, and there is nothing canon about Celestia being a tyrant. She is not portrayed as one at all by the show or its creators. I'm beginning to wonder if a number of these "tyrant Celestia" types are individuals butthurt by authority figures.
Anonymous
#551617
9 months ago
I'm noticing that almost everybody who is "pro-Celestia" in this thread is unnecessarily rude. All the "Celestia is a tyrant" people are posing well thought out (even if incorrect) arguments without resorting to any name calling, flaming or out of context trolling.

Please people, you can share your opinions, but don't attack the opposition. I thought that we were supposed to "love and tolerate" and not "belittle and name-call". If you don't find the tyranny meme amusing and you have nothing constructive to say, then just move on.
YetAnotherBrony
#551733
9 months ago
Celestia is not a tyrant. Yes, she does do a fair amount of manipulation, but she is not, in any way, actively malevolent (except towards Discord. But he was warping Equestria beyond recognition, so that was justified.)

The reason the ponies were terrified is because she is not only their ruler, she is also their goddess. An immortal goddess of the sun. The ponies almost instinctively think of themselves as "puny mortals" when compared to Princess Celestia.
YetAnotherBrony
#551739
9 months ago
^ I meant "the reason the ponies were terrified of her visit in 'A Bird in the Hoof'".
Anonymous
#551770
9 months ago
@
togashimenai

Holy crap I know you're stupid but the Discord part.. really?

Of course he didn't kill them, that's the fucking point, he's an all powerful being who makes Tia look weak, he could have taken out of mane six in seconds but he didn't because he enjoys fucking with ponies he enjoys breaking their will, you saw how mad he was wend he couldn't break Fluttershy and then just brainwashed her anyway.

Ponies to him arn't subject they're his TOYS killing them would only prevent him form playing with them more.
Anonymous
#551784
9 months ago
^ Wow, the pro-Celestians DO resort to childish name calling and unnecessary swearing, don't they? Interesting.
Dinger
#552079
9 months ago
@1770 Why must you attack someone for how they interpret something when it is different than when you do so. You seem to be of the same mindset of the child who, when they are unable to counter a sound and logical statement with one of your own to defend your side of a debate that you just punch the other person in the face. In other words, please grow up and show some maturity.
Drasvin
#552349
9 months ago
To the supporters of "Celestia is a tyrant" that bring up the manipulation of nature as evidence, there is no evidence that nature can support itself in the MLP world. Sure there is the Everfree Forest, but that could easily be caused by dark (or misunderstood) magic. The roles the ponies perform are often give to nature spirits, fairies, and the such in many mythologies. While it is easiest to assume a given fictional world is like ours, such assumption should not be tightly held to, especially if evidence to the contrary is available (Such as the raising and lowering of the Sun and Moon, and Nightmare Moon's Eternal Night and all the problems that would have caused if their world was like ours). Given that Discord was able to completely control everything once he got free, it's reasonable to assume that he was the driving force behind nature before Celestia and Luna imprisoned him. And we get to see how he handles nature in the show, using it to spread chaos and torment the ponies. (Though maybe he wasn't as extreme with the crazy nature before he was imprisoned. Celestia, Luna, and the other ponies would have to have gotten the idea of how to do things from somewhere. Maybe the Everfree Forest existed back then, somehow immune to Discord's control, and somepony liked it enough to copy that model) Also the only places we get to see are Equestria, which is only one nation in that world, and Appleloosa, which is a desert. Without seeing how other nations operate their nature, we can only speculate how things at large work, though most likely other places work like Equestria, since Twilight has read about the Zebra homeland and didn't comment on any 'oddities' in their nature system.

I do agree that Celestia is rather orderly, though I think she has a pretty good psychological excuse for being so. When she was going up, her friends, her family, everypony she would have cared about was being tormented and tortured by a tyrannical, mad god that embodied a given concept. She would probably grow to resent said concept. So her actions and her governing policies are likely very anti-Chaos and anti-Disharmony. And since cruelly oppressing the masses would be disharmonous, the most obvious course of action would be to try to make everypony as happy as she can without hurting anypony. True she did instigate some chaos at the Gala, though in that case she had become extremely bored with the event and was trying to liven it up. She unfortunately got more than she bargained for (considering her shocked expression upon walking into the chaotic Gala, she wasn't expecting that) Though given that she wears a public 'mask' any time we see her, it is difficult to impossible to gauge just how much psychological trauma she has left over from her childhood.

As for Celestia putting her enemies on display, there's a good reason for that. Nightmare Moon was sealed in the moon, because that's rather symbolic and magic in many settings generally likes symbolism (Also could be a bit of poetic irony if Nightmare Moon had said something along the lines of "The Moon is the only thing you'll see from now on!" I really hope they do an episode that flashes back to Luna's Rebellion). As for Discord, how many stories have a great evil unleashed because someone stumbles across the can it's sealed in and accidentally let's it out, regardless of how secluded of a location it is in? Or worse, have a cult or some such actively seek to unleash said evil? By keeping Discord on the palace grounds, Celestia can keep a close watch on him, especially given that she had learned of a prophesy that Nightmare Moon would escape. Who's to say that some freak event wouldn't set Discord free? And by putting his statue in a statue garden, it wouldn't look as odd and might keep future generations from asking uncomfortable questions.
Wyrm
#553405
9 months ago
To the supporters of "Celestia is a tyrant/Discord is the rightful ruler:" you sound exactly like the "The Autobots are tyrants/The Decepticons fight for freedom" wankers. You base your assertion on ridiculous misinterpretations of evidence, and even when the evidence does support you, you take that evidence further than it can actually go. You are wrong. Period.
Anonymous
#553763
9 months ago
I just love how most of the "Celestia is a Tyrant" supporters conveniently forget that Celestia AND Luna were the ones that imprisoned Discord.
Dinger
#553791
9 months ago
@763 Have you not heard of the term "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" Celestia merely allied with her sister and once she was in the clear did away with her as well.
Anonymous
#555589
9 months ago
And all the NMM arguments are dumb as well.
NMM started the fight against her sister, by not taking down the moon. If Celestia hadn't banished her, Equestria would be a very dead place.
togashimenai
#555655
9 months ago
Oh, no. I agree that NMM needed to be taken down. However, the tool that Celestia used to do that was the same tool that cleansed Luna of her evil side 1000 years later.

Yes, there are various reasons for which Celestia may have had "no choice" in the matter. However, it also appears that no attempt was ever made to save her, either. In fact, NMM's prison term (and thus Luna's prison term) was "forever".

So, I don't blame Celestia for defeating NMM, as it had to be done. I just question the manner and motivations with which it was accomplished.
Anonymous
#557872
9 months ago
@togashimenai Well, Discord was defeated with both Celestia AND Luna using the Elements of Harmony.

In that case, when Luna became Nightmare Moon, it's doubtful Celestia could use them alone to the same degree she could when against Discord.

Hell, Celestia even confirms that the mane 6 were the ones capable of using the Elements to their full potential.

To me, that implies that Celestia couldn't use the Elements to their full potential, and thus could only banish NMM. Twilight and co, however, were able to purify Luna of the evil magic corrupting her, implying it's a feat only the true strength of the Elements could accomplish.

Also, the legend maintained that 'the stars would aid her escape', so NMM always had an out. If we're going to be making up theories on things read between the lines and left unsaid, than on the one hand, sure, maybe Celestia didn't plan for NMM to escape. But since that's just conjecture, it's JUST as fair to say that perhaps Celestia ARRANGED for the stars to free her.

And maybe, if she had found a mare like Twilight earlier, it might not have been 1000 years? What if Twilight had been born 800 years earlier? For Celestia it would be simple to reprint a book stating that 'as legend has it, she will escape on the 200th year anniversary of the summer sun celebration'.

Hmm... I really like that theory. But that's all any of this, theories.
Anonymous
#763599
7 months ago
Celestia is Stalin. Discord is Lenin. Luna is Trotsky.
Anonymous
#828404
6 months ago
No, Discord was the Tzar. Obviously.
Anonymous
#839300
6 months ago
THEY'RE FUCKING CARTOON PONIES, GUYS. CALM THE FUCK DOWN.
PonyRIG
#839316
6 months ago
this thread is SERIOUS BUSINESS! lol
Anonymous
#1271086
2 months ago
"Political rival"? More like planet-level threat! NMM would've wiped out all multicellular life on half the planet!