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From: Shon Richards
Re: The Womanizer, Chapter 1, by Poison Ivan
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:02:22 GMT
"Desdmona22" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
The Womanizer
By Poison Ivan
First of all, I was really swept along by the oddness of the main character. He has a fetish, and it's a neat one. Learning a woman's history is unique one that I was looking forward to seeing in action. Six cans of motor oil indeed :)
Having said that, Kate worries me. You see, Kate comes from Vanilla Rom Hell. She's the ex-girlfriend who moves in next door and is destined to be the love interest. Yuck :) Here we have an interesting male, and yet we have almost a cliche' girlfriend in his future. It may be too early to judge her, but she sounds typical, and what I really like about this story so far is the male is atypical.
Also, I loved the Dad's analogies. "Grab the Bull! Grab the Bull! Do you have the Bull yet?" And I see Robert as clueless to these refrences. That's really, really, funny. It shows the huge gap between them and it lets you know as a reader that they may never meet eye to eye.
Yet, where did that dad go in the later part? Who's this normal dad who mentions Kate as if "Go make her happy son."? What? No cheesy lines about fish getting away? And why is Bull-Grabber even concerned?
Fess up, Ivan, you wrote this bit in two sittings, didn't you? :) To me, if feels like a really neat story got mashed with a really normal story. Strain the normal out!
Head Warlock of the Coven of Bliss
Shon Richards
Adventure Stories of Mine and Others can be found at
http://www.asstr.org/~shonRichards/
Romance Stories of mine are hosted by Gary at http://www.asstr.org/~gary/
E-mail me to find out about the ASSD/Coven of Bliss Mentor Program
From: Mat Twassel
Re: The Womanizer, Chapter 1, by Poison Ivan
Date: 11 Sep 2001 13:45:24 GMT
Shon writes:
Also, I loved the Dad's analogies. "Grab the Bull! Grab the Bull! Do you have the Bull yet?" And I see Robert as clueless to these refrences. That's really, really, funny. It shows the huge gap between them and it lets you know as a reader that they may never meet eye to eye.
I agree in part. Robert doesn't know the difference between bullfight and rodeo. Wonderful. No Hemingway he, you say? We have a womanizer with a Gen-X twist. In any event I wouldn't want to predict what directions the father-son conflict will take.
Having said that, Kate worries me. You see, Kate comes from Vanilla Rom Hell. She's the ex-girlfriend who moves in next door and is destined to be the love interest. Yuck :) Here we have an interesting male, and yet we have almost a cliche' girlfriend in his future. It may be too early to judge her, but she sounds typical, and what I really like about this story so far is the male is atypical.
Interesting. I'm not sure that Kate is at all typical (or that Robert isn't) but granting those assumptions, isn't the potential chemistry between typical and atypical worth a look? So far I like all these characters just the way they are.
He has a fetish, and it's a neat one. Learning a woman's history is unique one that I was looking forward to seeing in action.
I agree. A delicious set up, great execution, and it allows one of the best lines I've read in a long time:
I swear, sometimes a woman would rather give a man a blowjob than give up the name of her childhood cat.
But what's sort of interesting here is that Robert's dating relationship, his mode and methods, might be right out of his father's how to succeed at business book. Really traditional in some ways.
- Mat Twassel
From: Uther Pendragon
Re: The Womanizer, Chapter 1, by Poison Ivan
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:23:48 GMT
2 positive comments
2 things to improve
I find it hard to make positive comments at a useful level. This is an enticing beginning, but what makes it enticing? I don't know. Still, I'm going to claim that as 1.
2 And the protagonist is both credible and unique.
Things to improve.
I really don't believe the career choice. If he can concentrate
through business school, he could get himself a beginning
management job rather than a clerical one. (The not so secret
fact is that the lower the job, the more control others have over
your time.)
2 I'm not sure whether these are deliberate by the author pointing to the character or not.
But, of course, taking the bull by the horns has nothing to do with bull fighting; and did he TALK Lydia back to his house or WALK Lydia back to his house?
Uther Pendragon FAQs http://www.nyx.net/~anon584c [email protected] fiqshn http://www.asstr.org/~Uther_Pendragon
From: Mat Twassel
Re: The Womanizer, Chapter 1, by Poison Ivan
Date: 11 Sep 2001 13:28:43 GMT
Anne writes:
Having done clerical work in the past, there's no way you can afford a BMW on that.
I'm sure this is true, however it seems clear enough that the guy has some money. He's just not earning it from his job. If I had to guess I'd say that either his dad has given him enough over the years or that he got it from his mom. Trust fund or something. It's critical to the story (it seems to me) that the guy has this car and this mundane job, and not only that but that the father recognizes the seeming contradiction. This all fits in so well with the cases of motor oil. I love it.
By the way, my first car was a Mercedes Benz, and I had no money at all. Where there's a will there's a way.
- Mat Twassel
From: Mat Twassel
Re: The Womanizer, Chapter 1, by Poison Ivan
Date: 11 Sep 2001 14:43:19 GMT
This is such a wonderful beginning. I don't know that I'd change anything. I like everything about it. The humor, for example. It's good-humored. It's blatant and yet understated. It's natural. Does anyone know how hard that is to do? It requires everything to be just so. Pointing to the key lines alone doesn't get at the half of it, but consider:
I swear, sometimes a woman would rather give a man a blowjob than give up the name of her childhood cat.
Or:
As I have matured, so has the object of my fantasies; now I fantasize about magazine editors or managers of human resource departments.
Flaws? I don't know. Maybe sometimes the story pulls up short. We get a line that seems left off. Some examples:
I must go to great lengths to keep Woman A from ever meeting Woman B. If necessary, they may be allowed to know that the other exists, but if they should ever meet face-to-face, trouble invariably follows.
Well, I suppose so. What troubles? Hm, I suppose we're going to get to that. A meets B. And maybe there will be a C and D as well. I can hardly wait.
I can hardly wait! I am fully prepared - anxious, even - to discuss my future with my father.
But we see no evidence of his preparation, of his eagerness. "Anxious," by the way, while colloquially correct and probably in voice, is not the exact word. Robert means "eager." Okay, probably he is a little anxious, too. I can't even find real faults.
Let's try:
Claudia is an excellent cook, something my father suspects is true, although he is not truly aware of it. Claudia loves to cook but hates to serve.
Here we get Robert's opinion about his father's opinion, but no evidence. The remarks are richly telling. So maybe I've missed here, too.
Okay, how about the scene with Lydia? We're teased with Lydia, but we don't really see her in action, we just get her through Robert's recollection. Ah, but tease is one of the most important components of stories and of sex. We're teased about Kate, too. I am sure we'll be satisfied in later chapters.
I give up.
Maybe I can find some syntax thing to gripe about.
But at a young age, I resigned myself to the understanding that my fantasy would never go fulfilled.
But this past weekend I had the evening of my life.
Aha! Close by sentences starting with the same conjunction. Isn't that a little awkward? Or is it in fact apt?
But with Nicole, it is too early to tell.
But none of them hold the promise of Lydia.
Successive "buts." Little building blocks?
Sorry, Poison, I can't help you.
- Mat Twassel
From: Anne747
Re: The Womanizer, Chapter 1, by Poison Ivan
Date: 12 Sep 2001 00:16:42 GMT
Mat wrote:
It's critical to the story (it seems to me) that the guy has this car and this mundane job, and not only that but that the father recognizes the seeming contradiction.
That's kind of why I see him more as a middle management type. His father wouldn't understand why he didn't make the effort to rise through the ranks. And besides, middle management can waste far more of the day than a clerk can. ;-)
Anne
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From: Always Horny
Re: The Womanizer, Chapter 1, by Poison Ivan
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:50:06 +0200
First one comment to Desdmona: I rea��y prefer it if the story to review is coded. At least minimally so. (See, SLOW NOSEX happens to be a really major squick of mine)
Now, on to Ivan's womanizer:
positive comments
You do good job of setting up a weird character. With an unusual feel to his voice.
Good job of setting up anticipation for the future encounter with Kate.
Nice hinting at the relationship with his father.
things to improve
The choice of metaphor "strong as a salmon's urge to swim upstream" does not fit at all for me. It could be my being foreigner, but.
Shouldn't the womanizer be kicking himself more/have lower self-esteem about his career?
Are you planning this to be a SEX story or a PSY story? If sex, then maybe you should add some sex scenes/fantasies/recollections to it. (or alternately code it SLOW NOSEX so the likes of me can steer clear) Maybe the same thing under a different angle, maybe not: several of your paragraph are rather long-winded for my taste.
Very good job overall.
AH
A_H_01 at hotmail. com
From: Nick
Re: The Womanizer, Chapter 1, by Poison Ivan
Date: 13 Sep 2001 15:49:19 -0700
I tried to read this one on Tuesday night and found it too hard to concentrate. I tried again tonight, with little better success.
Somebody said that they didn't feel like writing dirty stories right now, and those views, I think, are felt by almost all of us. I don't feel much like reading them either.
However, this is what we do here, and sooner or later, like a rider who falls off a horse, we must get back on board. It might just take a little time, thats all. After all, if we don't, then in some sense the bad guys have won. I guess there are an awful lot of people out there too, who are in bad need of a bit of escapism and fantasy.
I have no idea when and if Ivan is planning to respond to this, but I feel it's important that he should at some point. I'll certainly write my comments eventually, but it wont be before the deadline now.
Nick
From: Poison Ivan
Re: The Womanizer, Chapter 1, by Poison Ivan
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:58:28 -0400
"Nick" wrote ...
I have no idea when and if Ivan is planning to respond to this, but I feel it's important that he should at some point. I'll certainly write my comments eventually, but it wont be before the deadline now.
Perfectly reasonable, Nick. Honestly, I am so depressed right now that I can barely bring myself to read the comments already made.
Poison Ivan
^ will probably feel better in a day or two
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: The Womanizer, Chapter 1, by Poison Ivan
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:03:21 -0600
On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:58:28 -0400, "Poison Ivan" <[email protected]> wrote:
"Nick" wrote ...
I have no idea when and if Ivan is planning to respond to this, but I feel it's important that he should at some point. I'll certainly write my comments eventually, but it wont be before the deadline now.
Perfectly reasonable, Nick. Honestly, I am so depressed right now that I can barely bring myself to read the comments already made.
Poison Ivan
^ will probably feel better in a day or two
I was busy last weekend, and never got around to writing responses to my Fish Tank story, nor to other posts. I figured I'd just hold off, and respond a bit later. But later is going to be much later than I'd expected :-(
My shock is wearing off some, but I had nightmares last night, and still feel shaky. I want to feel like writing, since I've a lot of promised stories to do, and despite the tragedy, I still think about them. I think that if I tried to write, it wouldn't work out anyway - too hard not to let the sadness seep in.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: PleaseCain
Re: The Womanizer, Chapter 1, by Poison Ivan
Date: 14 Sep 2001 20:14:16 GMT
This is a strong kickoff for a longer piece, because your characterization is so effective. The narrator emerges fully rendered, systematic and vain (with his women), contradictory (lamenting their reluctance to hop into bed, yet somehow spiteful when that comes too easily) and arrogant (confident that he won't age like his father), like one of Bret Easton Ellis' pussies where you can't wait for fate or another character to take his head off.
By the same token, the supporting characters of Kate and his father seem just as real, but much more sympathetic.
I don't have any great criticisms of this one. The little roster of girlfriends at the end seems tacked on, but I assume this is a slapdash conclusion concocted in order to submit to the Fish Tank, and that the fully realized piece would not contain the paragraph-by-paragraph scouting report on each woman. To my recollection, the prose flows (ack!) better in this one than in the last piece about Lydia - what is it about you and Lydia oh Lydia the encyclopidia, anyway? - and only eleven exclamation points, well dispersed.
I look forward to seeing more of this story.
Cain
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: The Womanizer, Chapter 1, by Poison Ivan
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 13:32:35 -0600
On 10 Sep 2001 22:12:26 GMT, [email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote:
On negatives: For a first person viewpoint, the hero seems to show a lot of what his father really feels. The tale is an introspective narrative, which is OK, and maybe I'm just reading the hero's interpretations of things as statements of fact, not observations.
Now, it could be that he is wrong about what his father understands. His father might not agree with his son's choices, but he may not be oblivious to them. The expensive car and the many women in his life seem things which would be hard not to notice. Perhaps, his father doesn't mention it, or somehow, it came up and turned out badly, so they don't speak of it more.
The second part, introducing the women, I think goes too fast. This is part, maybe, of doing a beginning chapter, but I think that each one - even Kate - deserves more of a chance to be shown. Dialog and all, probably at least a chapter on each. For the intro part, it might be better if each one actually has less information shown, a page or so maybe, enough to let us know that she is in his life, but the remainder moved to the tale which reveals them fully.
On the good things: The man is interesting. Not an ordinary sort of romantic, he wants something which is hard to find. He lives with the disapproval of his father, and perhaps of friends and coworkers as well (there is no hint of a close friend supporting his lifestyle, and his romances seem predestined to end).
The women in his life are also unusual. Kate isn't described enough to let us know all about her, but despite his apparent lack of serious interest in her, I find an undercurrent of desire. She is familiar, not one of his casual conquests. I can't tell whether that relationship followed the pattern of his other ones, but his self-insistence that she wasn't a serious partner is countered by his description. Maybe, he just didn't want that kind of relationship before?
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Nick
Re: The Womanizer, Chapter 1, by Poison Ivan
Date: 20 Sep 2001 15:41:49 -0700
As I said, the first time I read this it was hard to concentrate, and I found the story going in ways I didn't expect it to. On a second reading, though, it comes across far more logically.
This isn't a conventional sex story, and probably doesn't need to be a sex story at all.
The character of the son seemed very realistic. A lot of young men behave this way, with no 'respectable' purpose in their lives. He lives for the women he meets rather than his career or his father's ambitions for him. But that in itself has its complexities. He wants to know their life stories, but when faced with someone whose life story is actually a challenge (next door neighbour Katie with her suicidal parents, alcoholism and other dark secrets) he shows no interest. Here is something to get your teeth into - analysing the hero and his weaknesses.
Ivan always told me that a good story was not necessarily a 'big-hitter' ie one with overly dramatic content. You could write a story in which nothing much happens, but you could kep the reader interested simply by the atmosphere you produce, or the development of the characters and their relationships. I think this is a prime example of this.
I did feel, however, that the story fell down on the basic fantasy. Each to his own, but I simply couldn't relate to a guy who is turned on (as opposed to interested) by a womans life history. Again, perhaps if the story hadn't tried to be a sex story, it would have been better.
One other thing that gave me severe credibility problems was this:
And these are the roadblocks women use against me. As I press her for the details of her life, she stares at me like I am an alien invader. She is filled with distrust, as if she cannot believe I really want to know these things. I swear, sometimes a woman would rather give a man a blowjob than give up the name of her childhood cat.
I come across many many women who are only too willing to tell their life stories, and will completely ignore the fact that you have died of boredom while listening and that the flesh has begun to drop from your bones!
Finally:
Seeing my aggressive car never fails to excite her. I know some roads where I can drive fast, our shoulders bumping with the force of the turns. With a sideways glance, I can see the sparkle in her eyes, and then I know I have her.
Its a personal thing, but I've always felt that the only interest women have in sports cars is in driving them. They are only interested in the owner because he might let them have a go. If they are interested in you because of your car, it is because you own an estate!
Whens the next one Des?
Nick
From: Poison Ivan
Re: The Womanizer, Chapter 1, by Poison Ivan
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 00:03:24 -0400
The next time Des gets desperate for a submission, I'll foist one last chapter of "The Womanizer" on y'all. The final part fits between Chapter 1, which we're reviewing this week, and the chapter I put out in Week 1. (Don't worry, AH, Chapter 2 starts with a sex scene!)
Anyway, after the next submission, I'm going to confess what I'm trying to do with my characters and ask if I'm succeeding. Until then, I hesitate to come right out and say too much, because I'm afraid of polluting people's feedback. Once the first two chapters are completely out there, there should be enough information to tell if I am getting my characters defined the way I want them.
By the way, several of the criticisms you have pointed out I consider to be raving successes. "Yes! That's exactly what I wanted!" And there is at least two positive points that made me want to cry. (I thought that was interesting!)
At this point, though, I do have one worry about the first chapter that was indirectly mentioned by a couple people. When I first wrote this chapter, it was somewhat longer. I ended up cutting out quite a bit of it because I wanted to get to the action of the story sooner. I am still concerned that we read several thousand words without a whole lot happening. On the other hand, I've cut out enough about Robert's father that I'm on the verge of losing him, and I'm afraid he's slowly turning into a minor character.
So, is the beginning too slow? If it is, what do you think I can put off until a later time? Jeff mentioned a quicker laundry list of the women. Do I dwell too long up front on Robert's job? Anything else? As most of you figured out, Kate is a key character. Do I get to her quick enough?
If you don't think it's too slow, would it be too much to have four or five more paragraphs about Robert's father sprinkled around in this chapter? One thing I cut was a flashback (well, more of a digression than a flashback) about Robert's mother's death. Would that be too much?
Anyway, I found all the feedback this week to be very useful. You put a few of my fears to rest and raised a few points that I need to revisit.
Thanks to everyone!
Poison Ivan
^
From: PleaseCain
Re: The Womanizer, Chapter 1, by Poison Ivan
Date: 23 Sep 2001 01:50:27 GMT
Ivan,
For my part, I would like to know more about the father, and the women too, for that matter, if they help define the main character. For a good novel, you really need to invest the time in the characters, or it's all flat, in my opinion.
Cain
From: Nick
Re: The Womanizer, Chapter 1, by Poison Ivan
Date: 22 Sep 2001 17:39:40 -0700
"Poison Ivan" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...
At this point, though, I do have one worry about the first chapter that was indirectly mentioned by a couple people. When I first wrote this chapter, it was somewhat longer. I ended up cutting out quite a bit of it because I wanted to get to the action of the story sooner. I am still concerned that we read several thousand words without a whole lot happening. On the other hand, I've cut out enough about Robert's father that I'm on the verge of losing him, and I'm afraid he's slowly turning into a minor character.
I think that in a novel it is very difficult not to get too wordy as you introduce the characters and the scenario (a particular problem with SF writing too). For my money you get away with it - this time! But I worry a bit about you saying that Ch 2 opens with a sex scene. Does this imply a change of pace? I hope not.
In order to combat opening wordiness, what many writers do is to write their opening chapter with lots of action in order to give the reader a hook to get them over the boring bits.
Novels are generally slower anyway.
Nick
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: The Womanizer, Chapter 1, by Poison Ivan
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 13:18:59 -0600
On Sat, 22 Sep 2001 00:03:24 -0400, "Poison Ivan" <[email protected]> wrote:
The next time Des gets desperate for a submission, I'll foist one last chapter of "The Womanizer" on y'all. The final part fits between Chapter 1, which we're reviewing this week, and the chapter I put out in Week 1. (Don't worry, AH, Chapter 2 starts with a sex scene!)
At this point, though, I do have one worry about the first chapter that was indirectly mentioned by a couple people. When I first wrote this chapter, it was somewhat longer. I ended up cutting out quite a bit of it because I wanted to get to the action of the story sooner. I am still concerned that we read several thousand words without a whole lot happening. On the other hand, I've cut out enough about Robert's father that I'm on the verge of losing him, and I'm afraid he's slowly turning into a minor character.
So, is the beginning too slow? If it is, what do you think I can put off until a later time? Jeff mentioned a quicker laundry list of the women. Do I dwell too long up front on Robert's job? Anything else? As most of you figured out, Kate is a key character. Do I get to her quick enough?
I don't think novels have to worry about being too slow when a lot of characters are involved. There is a problem with focus, when you try to introduce a lot of people at once. They are all important enough to get treatment, but some of them have to come first.
Unless something else is happening, it seems to me that the initial relationship is with his father. The others seem to be reflected on that, made in reference to him in some way often.
I can't say how to best get them all in. But I might concentrate on only one at a time, mentioning the others briefly, then giving them the limelight later.
If you don't think it's too slow, would it be too much to have four or five more paragraphs about Robert's father sprinkled around in this chapter? One thing I cut was a flashback (well, more of a digression than a flashback) about Robert's mother's death. Would that be too much?
It pushes my limits as chapter size goes. The length of the entire thing sets how big each part can be, but even so, I might break it up into a chapter about Robert's life, his father, and Kate, with some mention of the other women in his life, and then go into the women.
Or conversely, start with the women (gets some sex interest going), then get into the other relationships which seem permanent, or at least longer lived.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
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From: Anne747
Re: The Womanizer, Chapter 1, by Poison Ivan
Date: 11 Sep 2001 00:52:13 GMT
Okay, the good things ...
You've set up a chapter that makes the reader want to find out what happens in the next chapter. I'm not sure the character is likable, but I figure you're moving to a point where he is redeemable. I waver between thinking he's a lost soul or a pig. grin
However ...
Having done clerical work in the past, there's no way you can afford a BMW on that. Either pump up the job a little, or have father supply some of the support. If you were going for a rather unremarkable job, try mid-level management in a larger firm.
Also, he starts off by mentioning fear and anticipation at his father's summons, but I don't get that from the sudden request to see Kate. His father is tough, successful, but caring? Okay, I might buy that, but you might try a little pressure. (ie. the reference back to his living above his means)
Anyway, an interesting start, and I look forward to seeing where it goes.
Anne
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