The following is a complete story at 2,225 words. It is part
of the Fish Tank anniversary. A daughter encourages her single
father to take some chances in life. FishTank guidelines
apply:
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 things to improve
3) Try not to repeat!
*********************************************
Of Things No Longer There (Rom)
by John [email protected]
My overall impression of this story was that it was very good. It
kept my interest up and the narrative and plot line were engaging.
1) 2 positive comments
The vocabulary was just right. Lots of use of words not commonly
found, yet they were all accessible to an ordinary reader. Lots of
turns of phrase which captured a feeling or an action and brought
it to vivid life. For example:
Patrick hesitated at the curb. Looked lost instead of
left-and-right, as if he'd suddenly forgot his name or
azimuth, as if a passing motorist had splashed him with
senility.
A great image.
Or:
...a massive aqua-column ...
All in all, a great use of language and image.
The second good thing about the story was the curve of the
father/ daughter relationship. Mona going from fear and digust of
the missing digit when she was younger to showing it off to her
friends to erotic fetishism to acceptance as a part of the person.
Now seventeen, Mona's grasp on Patrick's half-a-finger held no
mystery at all. It was a part of Dad, no more or less than
his unruly cowlick or heavy, black moustache, his gentle voice
or awkward shyness with his students or his peers.
The whole thing seemed very true to life.
2) 2 things to improve
The use of the two positives and two things to improve in a real
life situation was a nice conceit, and as far as I know a first for
these Fish Tank Anniversary stories. But I got lost with the first
positive:
The positives were easy. Number one: her mom.
And then the story slides into another nice narrative about the
curve of her father's dysfunctional relationship with his wife, and
the myriad clues to the mother's character. So I kept wondering why
this was a positive. I think the only answer is that the mother
left them when Mona was twelve, bringing peace to the household and
ending the bleeding. In that case, the positive should be stated as
such. That is, it was the leaving that was positive, not the mother
herself.
I got lost again when, at the start of the next section, we see:
Posie one. Five years was long enough.
So again we have a different positive number one, followed by
positive number two. This should probably be corrected so that the
mother leaving is positive number one and the "Five years was long
enough" is a comment at the end of the first positive, since it
doesn't seem like a positive to me at all.
(As an aside, the use of the spelling posie bothered me, since I
kept reading it as Posey pronounced like Rosie rather than what I
think was the intended pronunciation of possie like Auzzie. But I
don't really know how the slang term should be spelled, so I may be
way off base.)
My number two item in things to improve is a nit of the tiniest
size. The father's nickname for Mona (which I assume is already a
nickname for Desdmona, is "Mon" instead of Mona. I could think of
only two ways to pronounce it, and neither seemed right to me.
"Mon" pronounced like moan seemed too over the top to me. And "Mon"
pronounced with a short 'o' sound made me think of a Jamaican
accent. Not a big deal, but I would be inclined to stick with Mona
as the nickname, and explain that her real name was Desdmona.
3) Try not to repeat!
I'll try not to repeat. I'll try not to repeat. I'll try not to
repeat.
Good job,
Iconoclast
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 16:37:36 -0600
One, a minor issue of sorts: this is a (no-sex) story and I wasn't
warned about that by the codes! Not exactly a negative, as far as
stories in general go. Nor do I see a spot to fit any sex into it,
barring a sequel.
Two, this is a repeat, but the:
The positives were easy. Number one: her mom.
and ...
Posie one. Five years was long enough. He needed to get out. The
babysitting thing was obsolete. He'd been there for her always. He ought
to have some fun.
... are really the same issue. Mom and dad, the relationship, it
all kinds of blends together. It feels like the first part was
written maybe after the ttwo "posie's".
Again on a repeat thing, "posie" won't translate to positive for
everyone. If you're going to use it, you need to have the explanation
for it right before the paragraph above.
I don't want to stick with repeat things though.
A kind of in-between thing is Connie. Mona's dad isn't so old as to
not be sexy. Of course, being old isn't really always unsexy, even if
some people (and the media) make it look that way. Connie is flirty,
and mature. Moreso maybe than Mona. And yet, there is something
missing in the situation.
Romance is often tricky anyway. The mystery of why one person seems
to connect is mysterious, you know? But here, we have Connie, who has
a crush on her old teacher and misses him, is of age, knows he is
unattached. So why does it take the daughter to point out this, or
make things happen? Somewhere in there, I think a clearer sign or
reaction might apply. Sure, Mona should be intuitive. But it is still
a big gamble to ask the question she does, without more of a clue.
And since they are schoolmates, or nearly so, things like school
gossip or even friendly chat could have let her know that Connie was
one of the serious flirters. Things like being braless in class tend
to be noticed by people other than the braless one and teacher.
It was a nice touch, when she explained taking her bra off before
class. A giveaway of the sort of crush which isn't just emotional
infatuation. However, we didn't really get a comment about what Pat
thought about it. Maybe like he is resisting and in shock, but if it
were me, I think some sign of embarrasment or interest would show up
in the tone. Maybe a bit more attention to that part would make it
flow well.
The whole flowing memory-thinking thing about mom is very good. It
has a nice chaotic feel to it, grasping at the straws of memory,
finding clues to what should happen next.
Altogether it makes a nice story, about familial love, and maybe a
bit of awareness of the needs of a parent as a person, not just as a
parent.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: cmsix
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 00:07:04 GMT
I hate to say it but I loved the whole routine with the stump of the finger.
It reminded of my daughter's reaction to a friend of mine. He had part of a
thumb missing and it was all she wanted to see when they met. It gave the
story a beginning authenticity, for me at least.
I also loved the description of the aquarium. It sent me back to ones I'd
visited with, who else, my daughter. Sadly my daughter never helped me with
any braless young girls.
I always have a hard time keeping up with dialog if it doesn't start a new
paragraph. Then again I'm old and have a hard time with new tricks, or any
tricks.
cmsix
From: Hammon Wry
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 04:04:39 GMT
On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 06:56:33 -0400, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> asked
us to consider "Of Things No Longer There" by johndear. What follows
is my considered response:
1) 2 positive comments
1. This piece passes the "read it out loud" test with full marks,
straight A, flying colors! It is lyrical, metered, and who gives a
damn if it doesn't rhyme? It's Poetry!
2. Imagery is fabulous. I agree with Iconoclast:
"Looked lost instead of left-and-right, as if he'd suddenly forgot his
name or azimuth, as if a passing motorist had splashed him with
senility." is Bloody Brilliant! Again, for a treat, say it outloud.
I'm telling you, johndear, you're a poet.
OK, ok, I repeated. But I did it with originality! ;)
Now for the real second possitive comment:
Pay close attention to this little gem:
"Mr. Worthy!" A woman's voice. ... "'Member me?"
Didja catch that? heh. Nice play on words, johndear.
<grin>
2) 2 things to improve
Tough. Tough, indeed.
1. This is a piece where the poetry is held reluctantly bound. It
needs to dance freely. But it's constrained by the prose of it.
2. Who is Kathy at the end?
Hammon Wry.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:35:40 -0600
On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 06:56:33 -0400, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> asked
us to consider "Of Things No Longer There" by johndear. What follows
is my considered response:
2. Who is Kathy at the end?
"my friend Kathy ..." could replace the first reference. One of
Mona's friends, someone who she could sleep over without advance
warning.
Now, in a real conversation, if Connie knew who Kathy was Mona
wouldn't have to spell it out. So putting in "my friend" is just for
the reader.
It is possible that Kathy is an aunt or other adult family friend,
though, so spelling it out can't hurt.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Tesseract
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: 29 Jul 2002 22:47:06 -0700
The following is a complete story at 2,225 words. It is part of the Fish
Tank anniversary. A daughter encourages her single father to take some
chances in life. FishTank guidelines apply:
*********************************************
Of Things No Longer There (Rom)
by John [email protected]
I liked it. Other people have already mentioned why. The controlled,
easy language. The scheming of the daughter to enable her father to
act.
It is very well written, so a couple of items really stand out.
'd. This is not a contraction with Mona, and since you leave a
space,"Mona 'd", you aren't using it as such. In dialogue it can be
used to indicate a speech pattern. But used in the narrative text,
especially since it is third person, it is an affectation that
detracts from the story.
"he had toured her th[r]ough the waterfront aquarium." I don't think
tour takes an indirect object. I have some conflicts about this one.
It is a nice turn of phrase, but I often take offence to people
re-inventing the English language, as what's left is diminished.
Tesseract
From: Gary Jordan
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: 30 Jul 2002 06:46:33 GMT
The following is a complete story at 2,225 words. It is part of the Fish
Tank anniversary. A daughter encourages her single father to take some
chances in life. FishTank guidelines apply:
Up scope.
I really liked that turn of phrase ... wait, that's been said before, at least
twice.
I was caught up in the poetic rhythm ...
no, that's been pointed out, too.
The aquarium reminded ... (oh, fudge!).
Ratspit. Consider all the previous positives seconded, including that I liked
it.
All my negatives are taken as well, except:
"I hope not. It seems tres obvious to me." She squeezed his finger.
That should be " ...tr�s obvious ..." We can use some of the upper ASCII now.
I really did like it. :)
Down scope.
Gary Jordan
"Old submariners never die; they just don't get to go down as often."
<I>"This communicating of a man's self to his friend works two contrary
effects, for it redoubleth joys, and cutteth griefs in half." - Francis Bacon,
Essays </I>
From: PleaseCain
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: 30 Jul 2002 07:55:40 GMT
You've developed Mona into a strong character, the entire range of her: her
growth, her changing relationship to her father, her thoughts and voice, all
quite an achievement. For an improvement, I would recommend more of
her - physical details, more with and about her father and his finger and her
mother - not because of any real shortcomings in your story, but because you
have whetted our curiosity about these people, and now that you've accomplished
the creation of them, why not let them live even more?
Good details and description. His 'freshly baked' name on Connie's tongue.
The sea life in the aquarium. The oval of blood on a wall.
While I like the flashback about the mother, done so naturally, the preceding
description of the daughter's thought-exercise confused me, the
adding-two-words part. I don't know if that is important - my precise
understanding - because it is explained with that same seventeen-year-old
conviction; in other words, it works for her, so that's that. Hey, it's
difficult to nitpick about writing this good.
Fine stuff, and now I'm off looking for more of your stories. Thanks for
contributing it.
Cain
From: Bradley Stoke
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: 30 Jul 2002 02:41:11 -0700
johndear
A sad and poignant story of loss and possible salvation. The severed
finger was a nice parable for the pain and loss of Patrick's wife, and
it was nice to see little Mona being so concerned (in such a practical
way) for her father's welfare.
One thing I liked, and here is the first "posie", is the quite fresh
way in which all these Fish Tank themes are used in this story. I
liked the way that the essential core of the "Fish Tank" process of
two positives and two suggestions for improvement are extracted and
reapplied. I must admit I was beginning to get a bit bored with all
these fish, fish tanks and women called Desdmona, but johndear has
done an excellent job in keeping on with the flow.
I liked the relaxed pace of the story. A day out in the aquarium and a
chance meeting with an ex-student (one who knows about raves and
techno too! Though I didn't know you could dance to plastic bricks
before). The switch of focus from father to daughter was nicely
understated, even though I felt that johndear was better able to
understand Patrick's thoughts than the ones he'd attributed to the
daughter.
Things to improve. Well, I thought there was a certain
self-consciousness about the language. At times it felt like it was
trying too hard. A little bit of lightening up might be in order.
Perhaps more attention to the kind of language and syntax that a young
girl might use (although I liked the odd "Chill!" for instance). The
expression "supper incognito" somehow jarred on me.
I also felt there could be some improvement on the dialogue that led
to Mona leaving her father with young Connie. I wasn't sure it flowed
naturally. That may just because I don't understand the psychology of
whatever it is that makes students lust after their teachers or
lecturers. Forty-year-old men seem to have quite magnetic sexual
attraction in Fish Tank submissions.
An excellent addition to the Fish Tank Anniversary. I hope, however,
that next year's anniversary will take a different nature. Fish are
just not very sexy (although I daresay someone is bound to disagree).
Bradley Stoke
http://www.asstr.org/~Bradley_Stoke
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: 02 Aug 2002 03:05:32 GMT
On the plus side: the missing finger thing was handled well all through, as was
everything else.
- Mat Twassel
Mat's Erotic Calendar at http://calendar.atEros.com
From: Uther Pendragon
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: 3 Aug 2002 05:51:18 -0600
1) Once, long ago, I commented that the "Watson" POV - 1st
person, but somebody other than the protagonist - was fine for
detective stories, but probably shouldn't be used for sex stories.
I changed my mind and later wrote two stories ("He Doesn't" and
"For Now") from that POV. That said, having the POV character
other than one of the two lovers is a hard but effective
technique. The author brings it off delightfully.
2) The author plays out the opening conceit/theme of the
presence of the missing very well. (What the dog did in the
night, speaking of Watson.)
2) 2 things to improve
1) Since Mona is the POV character, you might consider starting
from her point of view. Starting with "Patrick" doesn't help
the reader into the Mona POV.
2) The parenthesis in this sentence lacks something. "Her
father wasn't old (Well, forty wasn't ancient!) just easily
distracted, engaged sometimes in conflicts with inertia."
Or maybe it has more that it needs - or both.
If you have a parenthesis inside a sentence, it doesn't take a
period inside the parenthesis, much less an exclamation mark.
Alternatively, you could write: "Her father wasn't old. (Well,
forty wasn't ancient!) He was just easily distracted, engaged
sometimes in conflicts with inertia."
What a very nice story. I really like the relationship between father and
daughter. I was a little surprised though that Mona was so willing to set
him up with someone her own age.(Or at least one year older) I can fully
believe that Mona is ready to have her dad branch out, start to date, etc.
But the dynamics here are a little more difficult. Not only is there the
dating, and dad won't be all hers anymore. (After all, they've only had each
other for a while) But we also have to believe that Mona isn't disturbed by
her dad dating someone in Mona's peer group. The majority of teenage girls
would think it's an abomination. That's not to say, I don't believe it ever
happens, it does, but I'm having difficulty believing that Mona's pushing
it. In fact, it seems more plausible to me that Mona's reaction would be
more like, "God, dad, she's my age! That's gross!" And remember, if Patrick
were dating someone in Mona's peer group, it would suddenly become the topic
of conversation for the rest of the peers.
If Connie were older, say by 5 years, two things would happen for me, Mona,
at 17, would easily think Connie at 23 was someone older. And Patrick would
be able to look at Connie more as a woman, and less as a student. Patrick
has morals, and I absolutely love that about him. He's a teacher. And
teacher/student relationships are still frowned upon. It would be difficult
to only know a girl as your student and in one year's time change that whole
way of thinking. Whereas, after 5 years, there would be slight changes in
Connie's appearance and maybe her mannerisms that would attract Patrick in a
different way. Would he really want to date a girl that might say, "Chill?"
And the banter between the girls about the flirting wouldn't even have to
change much, Patrick would have been as attractive five years earlier as he
was a year ago. Maybe more so, he was still brooding then. Nothing more
attractive than a brooding English teacher. I can even see Mona asking,
"Girls liked my dad back then, too?"
I've belabored the point. I'm sorry. Maybe because this storyline touches a
chord with me or maybe because this story is just too good not to want it to
be even better. I realize that men date women twenty years their junior, but
daughters usually need a little time to adjust to it.
Thanks so much John for contributing! The fishtank anniversary stories,
though parts similar, I'm still amazed at the creative and unique ways that
keep popping up.
Des
From: cmsix
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 14:35:14 GMT
But the dynamics here are a little more difficult. Not only is there the
dating, and dad won't be all hers anymore. (After all, they've only had
each
other for a while)
Mom's been gone since Mona's birthday number twelve. That's five years,
nearly a third of her life and more than a third of her significant memory.
but I'm having difficulty believing that Mona's pushing
it. In fact, it seems more plausible to me that Mona's reaction would be
more like, "God, dad, she's my age! That's gross!"
I think we got more than enough of Mona's character to keep anything like
that from entering her mind or exiting her mouth. Just because she is
seventeen and female we don't have to automatically make her an airhead. She
worked it out on her own that her mother was cheating on her father and that
it finally destroyed their home. She's lived with just her father for five
years and watched him "missing Mom or missing something".
Mona sees a chance for him to get laid. The girl is attractive to him and he
to her. It's legal, and she already knows that he isn't going to do any
fishing on his own. Her early introductory incestuous fantasies seem to have
evaporated completely. I just can't see Mona with any heavy morality trip
over the age difference and I can't see her passing up this chance to get
him started. Constance will no doubt be back at the U soon and if anything
more long lasting develops you'll have a little extra time to get
comfortable with it.
cmsix
From: Desdmona
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 12:52:58 -0400
Mona sees a chance for him to get laid. The girl is attractive to him and
he
to her. It's legal, and she already knows that he isn't going to do any
fishing on his own. Her early introductory incestuous fantasies seem to
have
evaporated completely. I just can't see Mona with any heavy morality trip
over the age difference and I can't see her passing up this chance to get
him started. Constance will no doubt be back at the U soon and if anything
more long lasting develops you'll have a little extra time to get
comfortable with it.
I believe that Mona's maturity is what allows her to want to set her dad up.
It's not easy for her. She takes the time to list (in her mind) why it's a
good thing to do. The fact that an opportunity arises to force her to make
this decision is a good plot tool. But what purpose does it serve the story
to make the set up be with an 18 yr old? If there is a purpose, beyond male
fantasy, great!. But I'd like to know the reason, which only the author can
supply. Knowing the reason might go a long way in reducing the credibility
issue that I have with a 17 yr old having no issues with her dad
dating/fucking an 18 yr old.
Your explanation "it's legal and they're attracted to one another" sounds
like the rationalization most men who are 40, and dating an 18 yr old
probably have. Or worse, a 40 yr old who just wants to get laid by an 18 yr
old. In another story, a story about fantasy, that works. In this story,
wrought with painful history such as Mona huddling behind a toilet in fear,
or the tender emotions of childhood fantasies not easily discussed, ending
with male fantasy #2 seems like a cheat. That's my point, which I may have
failed to get across.
Des
From: cmsix
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 18:17:09 GMT
But what purpose does it serve the story
to make the set up be with an 18 yr old? If there is a purpose, beyond male
fantasy, great!.
And what is wrong with male fantasy? Did I miss something here, are we
supposed to be writing true life confessions? Do women not think about
younger men? What is the possible purpose of erotica if it isn't to focus
attention on sexual situations that aren't normal in everyday life?
Mona sees a chance for him to get laid. The girl is attractive to him
and
he
to her. It's legal, and she already knows that he isn't going to do any
fishing on his own. Her early introductory incestuous fantasies seem to
have
evaporated completely. I just can't see Mona with any heavy morality
trip
over the age difference and I can't see her passing up this chance to
get
him started. Constance will no doubt be back at the U soon and if
anything
more long lasting develops you'll have a little extra time to get
comfortable with it.
I believe that Mona's maturity is what allows her to want to set her dad
up.
It's not easy for her. She takes the time to list (in her mind) why it's a
good thing to do. The fact that an opportunity arises to force her to make
this decision is a good plot tool. But what purpose does it serve the
story
to make the set up be with an 18 yr old? If there is a purpose, beyond
male
fantasy, great!. But I'd like to know the reason, which only the author
can
supply. Knowing the reason might go a long way in reducing the credibility
issue that I have with a 17 yr old having no issues with her dad
dating/fucking an 18 yr old.
Your explanation "it's legal and they're attracted to one another" sounds
like the rationalization most men who are 40, and dating an 18 yr old
probably have. Or worse, a 40 yr old who just wants to get laid by an 18
yr
old. In another story, a story about fantasy, that works. In this story,
wrought with painful history such as Mona huddling behind a toilet in
fear,
or the tender emotions of childhood fantasies not easily discussed, ending
with male fantasy #2 seems like a cheat. That's my point, which I may have
failed to get across.
Des
From: Desdmona
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 17:35:28 -0400
But what purpose does it serve the story
to make the set up be with an 18 yr old? If there is a purpose, beyond
male
fantasy, great!.
And what is wrong with male fantasy? Did I miss something here, are we
supposed to be writing true life confessions? Do women not think about
younger men? What is the possible purpose of erotica if it isn't to focus
attention on sexual situations that aren't normal in everyday life?
There's absolutely nothing wrong with male fantasy. I applaud it. But I
don't agree with your conclusion that erotica's possible purpose is to focus
on sexual situations that aren't in normal everyday life. I believe erotica
can also be about sex that must be considered normal by your definition. But
I can certainly believe that the father in this story has/had fantasies
about this young girl, and if the story had been told from his point of
view, her young age would probably be paramount to the story. But the story
we are talking about is being told from the viewpoint of a 17 yr. old girl.
The author makes the effort to show us how difficult the decision was for
the daughter to even set her father up. I think there should be at least a
little effort shown how she feels about her 40 year old father with an 18
yr. old girl.
Maybe the author decided to make the other girl 18 because of his own male
fantasy. Then that's fine, he is the author, after all. But for me (and
maybe just me) it does a disservice to the rest of the story in ways I've
already stated in previous posts.
Des
From: cmsix
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 22:16:06 GMT
I guess we can agree to disagree at least. It made the story better in my
opinion and since I'm fifty three I guess I should be ashamed of myself.
Somehow I'm not though.
But what purpose does it serve the story
to make the set up be with an 18 yr old? If there is a purpose, beyond
male
fantasy, great!.
And what is wrong with male fantasy? Did I miss something here, are we
supposed to be writing true life confessions? Do women not think about
younger men? What is the possible purpose of erotica if it isn't to
focus
attention on sexual situations that aren't normal in everyday life?
There's absolutely nothing wrong with male fantasy. I applaud it. But I
don't agree with your conclusion that erotica's possible purpose is to
focus
on sexual situations that aren't in normal everyday life. I believe
erotica
can also be about sex that must be considered normal by your definition.
But
I can certainly believe that the father in this story has/had fantasies
about this young girl, and if the story had been told from his point of
view, her young age would probably be paramount to the story. But the
story
we are talking about is being told from the viewpoint of a 17 yr. old
girl.
The author makes the effort to show us how difficult the decision was for
the daughter to even set her father up. I think there should be at least a
little effort shown how she feels about her 40 year old father with an 18
yr. old girl.
Maybe the author decided to make the other girl 18 because of his own male
fantasy. Then that's fine, he is the author, after all. But for me (and
maybe just me) it does a disservice to the rest of the story in ways I've
already stated in previous posts.
Des
From: dennyw
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 20:35:40 -0700
On Sun, 4 Aug 2002 17:35:28 -0400, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> held
forth, saying:
(I've not -yet- read the story)
The author makes the effort to show us how difficult the decision was for
the daughter to even set her father up. I think there should be at least a
little effort shown how she feels about her 40 year old father with an 18
yr. old girl.
and, upthread:
But what purpose does it serve the story
to make the set up be with an 18 yr old?
My first thought was - who would his 17yo daughter be able to set him
up with? Would she have that sort of relationship with a 30yo woman?
Probably not. But she might well have such with someone basically of
her own age, yes?
Would her feelings be that different about her father with a (fex)
30yo than with an 18yo? (I truly don't know.) My feeling is that
she'd have 'oh, ickypoo' sorts of thoughts wrt any woman her father
was sexually involved with. ("Parents? Sex? My parent??")
- but I'm older than cmsix, so my grasp of how teenage girls think is
far, FAR from good.
-denny- (curmudgeon)
"There are two tragedies in life.
One is to lose your heart's desire. The other is to gain it."
- G.B. Shaw
From: cmsix
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 13:44:50 GMT
- but I'm older than cmsix, so my grasp of how teenage girls think is
far, FAR from good.
You can't be older than me. I'm older than dirt. I distinctly remember the
day the deliverymen brought us the first television in town. (My father
owned the GE dealership then). It couldn't get a picture because there
weren't any stations in range yet.
On Sun, 4 Aug 2002 17:35:28 -0400, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> held
forth, saying:
(I've not -yet- read the story)
The author makes the effort to show us how difficult the decision was for
the daughter to even set her father up. I think there should be at least
a
little effort shown how she feels about her 40 year old father with an 18
yr. old girl.
and, upthread:
But what purpose does it serve the story
to make the set up be with an 18 yr old?
My first thought was - who would his 17yo daughter be able to set him
up with? Would she have that sort of relationship with a 30yo woman?
Probably not. But she might well have such with someone basically of
her own age, yes?
Would her feelings be that different about her father with a (fex)
30yo than with an 18yo? (I truly don't know.) My feeling is that
she'd have 'oh, ickypoo' sorts of thoughts wrt any woman her father
was sexually involved with. ("Parents? Sex? My parent??")
- but I'm older than cmsix, so my grasp of how teenage girls think is
far, FAR from good.
-
-denny- (curmudgeon)
"There are two tragedies in life.
One is to lose your heart's desire. The other is to gain it."
- G.B. Shaw
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 18:44:22 -0600
On Sun, 04 Aug 2002 18:17:09 GMT, "cmsix" <[email protected]> wrote:
But what purpose does it serve the story
to make the set up be with an 18 yr old? If there is a purpose, beyond male
fantasy, great!.
And what is wrong with male fantasy? Did I miss something here, are we
supposed to be writing true life confessions? Do women not think about
younger men? What is the possible purpose of erotica if it isn't to focus
attention on sexual situations that aren't normal in everyday life?
The rest of the story sets up a situation which which could be true,
doesn't fall into the realm of just fantasy. So while Connie may be
OK as an 18 yo falling for a man over twice her age, and the man's
daughter might be OK with that too, it needs a bit more explanation of
why all three seem OK with the situation.
It isn't an impossible situation. It just requires all three to be
in agreement about the propriety of the situation. Connie, to have a
serious crush, one which she is willing to pursue now that she is an
adult. There are 18 yo's who feel that is appropriate; I was one of
those sorts (my judgement on who was too old to go out with changed
once I turned 18, though over twice my age was still a stretch).
He has to be OK with the situation. Not just as a fantasy, because
that is easy to get into. In a real dating situation, especially
after not doing it at all for so long, being pushed into it by two
younger people might seem intrusive. It makes more sense if, in his
heart, he's already considered doing that. At least as a fantasy, but
with the seriousness which an adult should apply fantasy desires.
Not that all adults do use adult judgement when pursuing
relationships. It is just that he seems sufficiently careful, aware
of the dangers, to avoid going ahead without thinking it over.
Mona is the last one who needs a better reason to consider a
classmate as a potential stepmom. She is mature, but is she old
enough to consider herself independent, so that a new step-mom would
be a friend, not a competitor or hassle as an authority figure?
Maybe. I think that Mona's decision-making picks up the positives
for Dad, but not enough about why she is fine with him going out with
someone so young.
Which comes to something I commented on. The whole situation makes
more sense if Mona was aware of Connie's crush, including her bra-less
teasing, and was also aware that her dad reciprocated this somewhat.
To have a chance meeting let her "invent" the relationship on the spot
seems like too much.
But if both had desires for the other prior to the meeting, and Mona
knew about them beforehand, then pushing them to reveal them (Mona
talked with her dad about flirty girls in his class, and she also
talked with Connie (or one of Connie's friends) and knew that her
intentions were more than just play-flirting.
Mona still plays the key role. She knows their mutual secrets, and
a chance meeting lets her kick them both into contact. Once each
knows that the other really is interested in a possible relationship,
it is easier to see them going for it so casually.
Otherwise, it just seems to awkward. From the older male viewpoint,
I think I'd insist that my daughter comes along, rather than moving
right into a fresh surprise date. If the relationship is possible,
then a day spent talking like adults would be well spent, slowly
working my way into a situation where I feel comfortable.
Plus learning whether the other two are really OK with the whole
arrangement. It is one thing to have a short fling for fun, and lots
of dating situations just don't go anywhere. If this is one where it
could work out, but only if the complications are resolved (two
biggies, age difference and - always a factor - daughter's
approval).
Now, I could read between the lines and say that my presumption of
mutual desire is there. If I do that, then it makes more sense as
more than just a fantasy. The coincidental meeting is lucky, but
sometimes such lucky meetings happen.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Shadow Wolf
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: 5 Aug 2002 12:19:53 -0500
But what purpose does it serve the story
to make the set up be with an 18 yr old? If there is a purpose,
beyond male fantasy, great!.
Mona is the last one who needs a better reason to consider a
classmate as a potential stepmom. She is mature, but is she old
enough to consider herself independent, so that a new step-mom would
be a friend, not a competitor or hassle as an authority figure?
cmsix mentioned Mona's early incestuous fantasies, which she seems to have
gotten over. Perhaps, though, she's using Connie as a substitute for
herself - she can't have sex with her dad, but her friend can ...
Shadow Wolf [email protected]
Stories at http://www.asstr.org/~Shadow_Wolf
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 13:38:00 -0600
On 5 Aug 2002 12:19:53 -0500, Shadow Wolf <[email protected]>
wrote:
But what purpose does it serve the story
to make the set up be with an 18 yr old? If there is a purpose,
beyond male fantasy, great!.
Mona is the last one who needs a better reason to consider a
classmate as a potential stepmom. She is mature, but is she old
enough to consider herself independent, so that a new step-mom would
be a friend, not a competitor or hassle as an authority figure?
cmsix mentioned Mona's early incestuous fantasies, which she seems to have
gotten over. Perhaps, though, she's using Connie as a substitute for
herself - she can't have sex with her dad, but her friend can ...
Kind of like having her "sister" do it? Maybe. I still think that
the impact on herself would come up. Much easier to consider if this
wasn't the first time she'd thought about the subject, if not the
exact situation.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: john
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: 4 Aug 2002 18:23:36 -0700
Thank you, of course, all of you. For your kindness and your help.
Is it kosher to stop right here? I didn't think so.
About my use of language.
I've had the misfortune of watching a People's language actually die.
It is wrenching. I'm not a linguist, but I love English. I would not
want to abuse it; I believe the consequences of what we write are
potentially severe. I'm simply not always sure how to balance the
poetry of sounds with the strictures of convention and the goal of
communication. No one is. All of your suggestions seem true, but
some need juxtaposing to the music to which I'm trying to dance.
Language changes. That's the way it avoids death, I think. I'll
review it, though. I do appreciate your careful reading.
About the fantasy.
I don't think it would matter, Des. why I chose to write about that
situation. The attraction-abomination-pain-fetish-taboo of it seemed
just like the missing finger to me as I wrote. That it wasn't for
you, is sufficient. But. I want to say I'm sorry, particularly to
you and to any others that it rankled (and not just as a Canadianism).
Since the story was intended as a tribute, especially, I'm sorry
that it touched your nerve. I know. I nearly lost a friendship with
a writer who dared to write about a rape as something erotic. I
couldn't get past the horrific implications of the piece. In no way
would I ask you to do that with this story either. The issue is a
real one, but to one person or another, so is most of the fodder of
erotica. Story codes might help (although not in this case) in the
extreme. This wasn't extreme. My stuff isn't.
Bummer. Of all the people in the tank, I hoped that you would like
it.
To Cain
Don't look too long or hard. The only things I've written are two
short fishtank things and an even shorter Rom Fest piece.
From: Desdmona
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 23:14:03 -0400
About the fantasy.
I don't think it would matter, Des. why I chose to write about that
situation. The attraction-abomination-pain-fetish-taboo of it seemed
just like the missing finger to me as I wrote.
That's just my point, John. What you wrote about the missing finger was
detailed, explained, and it made the fetish all the more real. But when it
came to the young girl, everyone just accepted it like it was the most
normal thing in the world. What if while the daughter is contemplating why
it's a good thing to set her father up, what if she just says something to
address the age thing. "So what if she's my age, she seems to like my dad."
I don't know, I've gone on about this much more than I needed to so I'm the
one who should be apologizing not you!
That it wasn't for
you, is sufficient. But. I want to say I'm sorry, particularly to
you and to any others that it rankled (and not just as a Canadianism).
Since the story was intended as a tribute, especially, I'm sorry
that it touched your nerve. I know. I nearly lost a friendship with
a writer who dared to write about a rape as something erotic. I
couldn't get past the horrific implications of the piece. In no way
would I ask you to do that with this story either. The issue is a
real one, but to one person or another, so is most of the fodder of
erotica. Story codes might help (although not in this case) in the
extreme. This wasn't extreme. My stuff isn't.
Bummer. Of all the people in the tank, I hoped that you would like
it.
Ah, but John, I did like it! Very much. I think it's a great story. I love
the plot. I like the way you presented the history. It was only that one
minor point that I had difficulty with. And it may very well be that I'm the
only one that did.
But that's the beauty of the FishTank. Differing opinions. My opinion is no
more important than anyone else that contributes! I honestly believe that.
And another thing, this anniversary is for the FishTank, not me. It's to
celebrate its survival for one year. And what better way to do that then to
have a story that raises a little controversy. Consider your submission a
great one. I do.
Des
From: dennyw
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 20:26:32 -0700
On 4 Aug 2002 18:23:36 -0700, [email protected] (john) held forth,
saying:
I've had the misfortune of watching a People's language actually die.
I have to ask - what language?
-denny- (curmudgeon)
"There are two tragedies in life.
One is to lose your heart's desire. The other is to gain it."
- G.B. Shaw
From: dennyw
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 06:36:48 GMT
On Mon, 05 Aug 2002 13:44:50 GMT, "cmsix" <[email protected]> wrote:
- but I'm older than cmsix, so my grasp of how teenage girls think is
far, FAR from good.
You can't be older than me. I'm older than dirt. I distinctly remember the
day the deliverymen brought us the first television in town. (My father
owned the GE dealership then). It couldn't get a picture because there
weren't any stations in range yet.
cmsix
Did the deliveryman use a horse? <g>
Lessee - -leaving out Uther and smilodon, who are special cases - TTBOMK
Garvin is the oldest regular, then Frank McCoy, then me. cmsix is the
only other regular here (IIRC of course) who's >50.
We're all a bunch of dirty old men. :)
From: Gary Jordan
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: 07 Aug 2002 07:09:45 GMT
Up scope.
So Waldorf (AKA Denny) says:
On Mon, 05 Aug 2002 13:44:50 GMT, "cmsix" <[email protected]> wrote:
- but I'm older than cmsix, so my grasp of how teenage girls think is
far, FAR from good.
You can't be older than me. I'm older than dirt. I distinctly remember the
day the deliverymen brought us the first television in town. (My father
owned the GE dealership then). It couldn't get a picture because there
weren't any stations in range yet.
cmsix
Did the deliveryman use a horse? <g>
Lessee - -leaving out Uther and smilodon, who are special cases - TTBOMK
Garvin is the oldest regular, then Frank McCoy, then me. cmsix is the
only other regular here (IIRC of course) who's >50.
We're all a bunch of dirty old men. :)
"If you remembered correctly, I wouldn't be posting this correction," Statler
points out. He sighs. "Memory is the third thing to go."
A long pause ... "Say, are you implying I'm irregular?"
My scope has fallen and it can't get up.
Gary Jordan
"Old submariners never die; they just don't get to go down as often."
<I>"This communicating of a man's self to his friend works two contrary
effects, for it redoubleth joys, and cutteth griefs in half." - Francis Bacon,
Essays </I>
From: dennyw
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 18:21:06 GMT
So Waldorf (AKA Denny) says:
On Mon, 05 Aug 2002 13:44:50 GMT, "cmsix" <[email protected]> wrote:
- but I'm older than cmsix, so my grasp of how teenage girls think is
far, FAR from good.
You can't be older than me. I'm older than dirt. I distinctly remember the
day the deliverymen brought us the first television in town. (My father
owned the GE dealership then). It couldn't get a picture because there
weren't any stations in range yet.
cmsix
Did the deliveryman use a horse? <g>
Lessee - -leaving out Uther and smilodon, who are special cases - TTBOMK
Garvin is the oldest regular, then Frank McCoy, then me. cmsix is the
only other regular here (IIRC of course) who's >50.
We're all a bunch of dirty old men. :)
"If you remembered correctly, I wouldn't be posting this correction," Statler
points out. He sighs. "Memory is the third thing to go."
Why do you think I put in the qualifier?? I knew I didn't remember if
you'd hit the big five-oh yet.
A long pause ... "Say, are you implying I'm irregular?"
In the Dictionary of special Usenet terms, Statler is described as an
irregular verb. (we won't go anywhere near the definition)
My scope has fallen and it can't get up.
Waldorf remarks, "Now I know why Statler no longer signs himself
'rom-solo.'"
From: Ray
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 20:08:16 -0400
So Waldorf (AKA Denny) says:
On Mon, 05 Aug 2002 13:44:50 GMT, "cmsix" <[email protected]> wrote:
- but I'm older than cmsix, so my grasp of how teenage girls think is
far, FAR from good.
You can't be older than me. I'm older than dirt. I distinctly remember
the
day the deliverymen brought us the first television in town. (My father
owned the GE dealership then). It couldn't get a picture because there
weren't any stations in range yet.
cmsix
Did the deliveryman use a horse? <g>
Lessee - -leaving out Uther and smilodon, who are special cases - TTBOMK
Garvin is the oldest regular, then Frank McCoy, then me. cmsix is the
only other regular here (IIRC of course) who's >50.
We're all a bunch of dirty old men. :)
Thank you .... since I still have until November, I guess that still makes
me a dirty minded young-un <g>
Oh, for information ... until I was 7, our milk was delivered daily by
horse-drawn cart ... nice and rich and Ice cold in it's ice-house carriage.
Unless you live on the farm, you can't get milk like that today. :)
Ray
From: Uther Pendragon
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: 5 Aug 2002 11:13:24 -0600
But what purpose does it serve the story
to make the set up be with an 18 yr old? If there is a purpose, beyond male
fantasy, great!.
And what is wrong with male fantasy? Did I miss something here, are we
supposed to be writing true life confessions? Do women not think about
younger men? What is the possible purpose of erotica if it isn't to focus
attention on sexual situations that aren't normal in everyday life?
1) No, the purpose of erotica is to arouse. And arousing
situations are quite common in everyday life.
2) I may be missing something obvious here, but.
Why is it necessary for the man to be a High School teacher.
Let him be a college professor, and the situation is much more
believable. Two years out of college (instead of one year out of
high school) and the woman is mature by anyone's standards. And
she is out of the daughter's age grade, if nowhere near the
father's.
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: 06 Aug 2002 22:23:12 GMT
Uther writes:
2) I may be missing something obvious here, but.
Why is it necessary for the man to be a High School teacher.
Let him be a college professor, and the situation is much more
believable. Two years out of college (instead of one year out of
high school) and the woman is mature by anyone's standards. And
she is out of the daughter's age grade, if nowhere near the
father's.
Interesting solution. My take on this story (in its current form) is that the
daughter would be much less likely to matchmake if the ex-student were not more
or less her peer. Lots of reasons for that: the most interesting connects with
a comment made earlier in this thread: the daughter (perhaps unconsciously or
semi-consciously) is looking for someone to substitute for herself. Maybe
she'd deny it, but I think it's there. Okay, the evidence in the story is
slight; but even slight evidence is important, else why have it in the story at
all?
- Mat Twassel
Mat's Erotic Calendar at http://calendar.atEros.com
From: Souvie
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 03:30:39 GMT
The following is a complete story at 2,225 words. It is part of the Fish
Tank anniversary. A daughter encourages her single father to take some
chances in life. FishTank guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
Okay, I'm way late with posting this, so I'm bound to repeat. But I
wanted to let my voice be heard. lol
Positive: Wonderful use of imagery. Some examples:
Patrick hesitated at the curb. Looked lost instead of left-and-right, as if
he'd suddenly forgot his name or azimuth, as if a passing motorist had
splashed him with senility.
and
Refracted seaweed streamers swayed as if to music.
Seadragons, in amongst them, ragged centaurs, danced in perfect time, a
miracle of camouflage.
Positive: No jarring interruption of the narrative or awkward
paragraphs. Made for a nice flow and easy reading.
2) 2 things to improve
Improve: The finding two positives thing was nice, but I had to read
that part twice because I didn't understand it the first time through.
Improve: Mona seemed a bit brazen. Maybe it's just me and I'm out of
touch with teenagers these days, but she struck me as too forward,
there near the end. I enjoy an open relationship with my parents, but
I'm 32 and I wouldn't ever think of saying stuff like:
"No way. He's just shy. He said your tits were cool. The days you didn't wear a bra."
The web site does not currently support submitting comments
on stories. If you want to join in the discussion on this
story, come to the thread in alt.sex.stories.d and post
a follow-up.
Note that all the comments archived here were culled from
active discussions occuring in the Usenet newsgroup
alt.sex.stories.d.
If you want to contribute to the discussion, please join
us in ASSD and say your piece. Everyone is welcome.
If you do not know how to read Usenet newsgroups, there is
a nice web interface on Google:
http://groups.google.com/.
If you have any problems,
send us email.
If we're lucky, we'll get you set up and contributing in no
time!
If you have not done so, please read the
Comment Guidelines. We ask that all comments include two
positive remarks and two suggestions for improvement.
Please, try not to repeat!
Comments on Of Things No Longer There, by john.
The separator between the comment pane and the story pane is moveable. Drag it up or down if you need more room to read on the screen.
From: Iconoclast
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 19:04:57 GMT
"Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote on Mon 29 Jul 2002 03:56:33a
My overall impression of this story was that it was very good. It kept my interest up and the narrative and plot line were engaging.
The vocabulary was just right. Lots of use of words not commonly found, yet they were all accessible to an ordinary reader. Lots of turns of phrase which captured a feeling or an action and brought it to vivid life. For example:
A great image.
Or:
All in all, a great use of language and image.
The second good thing about the story was the curve of the father/ daughter relationship. Mona going from fear and digust of the missing digit when she was younger to showing it off to her friends to erotic fetishism to acceptance as a part of the person.
The whole thing seemed very true to life.
The use of the two positives and two things to improve in a real life situation was a nice conceit, and as far as I know a first for these Fish Tank Anniversary stories. But I got lost with the first positive:
And then the story slides into another nice narrative about the curve of her father's dysfunctional relationship with his wife, and the myriad clues to the mother's character. So I kept wondering why this was a positive. I think the only answer is that the mother left them when Mona was twelve, bringing peace to the household and ending the bleeding. In that case, the positive should be stated as such. That is, it was the leaving that was positive, not the mother herself.
I got lost again when, at the start of the next section, we see:
So again we have a different positive number one, followed by positive number two. This should probably be corrected so that the mother leaving is positive number one and the "Five years was long enough" is a comment at the end of the first positive, since it doesn't seem like a positive to me at all. (As an aside, the use of the spelling posie bothered me, since I kept reading it as Posey pronounced like Rosie rather than what I think was the intended pronunciation of possie like Auzzie. But I don't really know how the slang term should be spelled, so I may be way off base.)
My number two item in things to improve is a nit of the tiniest size. The father's nickname for Mona (which I assume is already a nickname for Desdmona, is "Mon" instead of Mona. I could think of only two ways to pronounce it, and neither seemed right to me. "Mon" pronounced like moan seemed too over the top to me. And "Mon" pronounced with a short 'o' sound made me think of a Jamaican accent. Not a big deal, but I would be inclined to stick with Mona as the nickname, and explain that her real name was Desdmona.
3) Try not to repeat!
I'll try not to repeat. I'll try not to repeat. I'll try not to repeat.
Good job,
Iconoclast
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 16:37:36 -0600
On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 06:56:33 -0400, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote:
One, a minor issue of sorts: this is a (no-sex) story and I wasn't warned about that by the codes! Not exactly a negative, as far as stories in general go. Nor do I see a spot to fit any sex into it, barring a sequel.
Two, this is a repeat, but the:
and ...
... are really the same issue. Mom and dad, the relationship, it all kinds of blends together. It feels like the first part was written maybe after the ttwo "posie's".
Again on a repeat thing, "posie" won't translate to positive for everyone. If you're going to use it, you need to have the explanation for it right before the paragraph above.
I don't want to stick with repeat things though.
A kind of in-between thing is Connie. Mona's dad isn't so old as to not be sexy. Of course, being old isn't really always unsexy, even if some people (and the media) make it look that way. Connie is flirty, and mature. Moreso maybe than Mona. And yet, there is something missing in the situation.
Romance is often tricky anyway. The mystery of why one person seems to connect is mysterious, you know? But here, we have Connie, who has a crush on her old teacher and misses him, is of age, knows he is unattached. So why does it take the daughter to point out this, or make things happen? Somewhere in there, I think a clearer sign or reaction might apply. Sure, Mona should be intuitive. But it is still a big gamble to ask the question she does, without more of a clue. And since they are schoolmates, or nearly so, things like school gossip or even friendly chat could have let her know that Connie was one of the serious flirters. Things like being braless in class tend to be noticed by people other than the braless one and teacher.
It was a nice touch, when she explained taking her bra off before class. A giveaway of the sort of crush which isn't just emotional infatuation. However, we didn't really get a comment about what Pat thought about it. Maybe like he is resisting and in shock, but if it were me, I think some sign of embarrasment or interest would show up in the tone. Maybe a bit more attention to that part would make it flow well.
The whole flowing memory-thinking thing about mom is very good. It has a nice chaotic feel to it, grasping at the straws of memory, finding clues to what should happen next.
Altogether it makes a nice story, about familial love, and maybe a bit of awareness of the needs of a parent as a person, not just as a parent.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: cmsix
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 00:07:04 GMT
I hate to say it but I loved the whole routine with the stump of the finger. It reminded of my daughter's reaction to a friend of mine. He had part of a thumb missing and it was all she wanted to see when they met. It gave the story a beginning authenticity, for me at least.
I also loved the description of the aquarium. It sent me back to ones I'd visited with, who else, my daughter. Sadly my daughter never helped me with any braless young girls.
I always have a hard time keeping up with dialog if it doesn't start a new paragraph. Then again I'm old and have a hard time with new tricks, or any tricks.
cmsix
From: Hammon Wry
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 04:04:39 GMT
On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 06:56:33 -0400, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> asked us to consider "Of Things No Longer There" by johndear. What follows is my considered response:
1. This piece passes the "read it out loud" test with full marks, straight A, flying colors! It is lyrical, metered, and who gives a damn if it doesn't rhyme? It's Poetry!
2. Imagery is fabulous. I agree with Iconoclast:
"Looked lost instead of left-and-right, as if he'd suddenly forgot his name or azimuth, as if a passing motorist had splashed him with senility." is Bloody Brilliant! Again, for a treat, say it outloud. I'm telling you, johndear, you're a poet.
OK, ok, I repeated. But I did it with originality! ;)
Now for the real second possitive comment: Pay close attention to this little gem:
"Mr. Worthy!" A woman's voice. ... "'Member me?"
Didja catch that? heh. Nice play on words, johndear. <grin>
Tough. Tough, indeed.
1. This is a piece where the poetry is held reluctantly bound. It needs to dance freely. But it's constrained by the prose of it.
2. Who is Kathy at the end?
Hammon Wry.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:35:40 -0600
On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 04:04:39 GMT, [email protected] (Hammon Wry) wrote:
"my friend Kathy ..." could replace the first reference. One of Mona's friends, someone who she could sleep over without advance warning.
Now, in a real conversation, if Connie knew who Kathy was Mona wouldn't have to spell it out. So putting in "my friend" is just for the reader.
It is possible that Kathy is an aunt or other adult family friend, though, so spelling it out can't hurt.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Tesseract
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: 29 Jul 2002 22:47:06 -0700
"Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...
I liked it. Other people have already mentioned why. The controlled, easy language. The scheming of the daughter to enable her father to act.
It is very well written, so a couple of items really stand out. 'd. This is not a contraction with Mona, and since you leave a space,"Mona 'd", you aren't using it as such. In dialogue it can be used to indicate a speech pattern. But used in the narrative text, especially since it is third person, it is an affectation that detracts from the story.
"he had toured her th[r]ough the waterfront aquarium." I don't think tour takes an indirect object. I have some conflicts about this one. It is a nice turn of phrase, but I often take offence to people re-inventing the English language, as what's left is diminished.
Tesseract
From: Gary Jordan
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: 30 Jul 2002 06:46:33 GMT
"Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...
Up scope.
I really liked that turn of phrase ... wait, that's been said before, at least twice.
I was caught up in the poetic rhythm ... no, that's been pointed out, too.
The aquarium reminded ... (oh, fudge!).
Ratspit. Consider all the previous positives seconded, including that I liked it.
All my negatives are taken as well, except:
That should be " ...tr�s obvious ..." We can use some of the upper ASCII now.
I really did like it. :)
Down scope.
Gary Jordan
"Old submariners never die; they just don't get to go down as often." <I>"This communicating of a man's self to his friend works two contrary effects, for it redoubleth joys, and cutteth griefs in half." - Francis Bacon, Essays </I>
From: PleaseCain
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: 30 Jul 2002 07:55:40 GMT
You've developed Mona into a strong character, the entire range of her: her growth, her changing relationship to her father, her thoughts and voice, all quite an achievement. For an improvement, I would recommend more of her - physical details, more with and about her father and his finger and her mother - not because of any real shortcomings in your story, but because you have whetted our curiosity about these people, and now that you've accomplished the creation of them, why not let them live even more?
Good details and description. His 'freshly baked' name on Connie's tongue. The sea life in the aquarium. The oval of blood on a wall.
While I like the flashback about the mother, done so naturally, the preceding description of the daughter's thought-exercise confused me, the adding-two-words part. I don't know if that is important - my precise understanding - because it is explained with that same seventeen-year-old conviction; in other words, it works for her, so that's that. Hey, it's difficult to nitpick about writing this good.
Fine stuff, and now I'm off looking for more of your stories. Thanks for contributing it.
Cain
From: Bradley Stoke
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: 30 Jul 2002 02:41:11 -0700
johndear
A sad and poignant story of loss and possible salvation. The severed finger was a nice parable for the pain and loss of Patrick's wife, and it was nice to see little Mona being so concerned (in such a practical way) for her father's welfare.
One thing I liked, and here is the first "posie", is the quite fresh way in which all these Fish Tank themes are used in this story. I liked the way that the essential core of the "Fish Tank" process of two positives and two suggestions for improvement are extracted and reapplied. I must admit I was beginning to get a bit bored with all these fish, fish tanks and women called Desdmona, but johndear has done an excellent job in keeping on with the flow.
I liked the relaxed pace of the story. A day out in the aquarium and a chance meeting with an ex-student (one who knows about raves and techno too! Though I didn't know you could dance to plastic bricks before). The switch of focus from father to daughter was nicely understated, even though I felt that johndear was better able to understand Patrick's thoughts than the ones he'd attributed to the daughter.
Things to improve. Well, I thought there was a certain self-consciousness about the language. At times it felt like it was trying too hard. A little bit of lightening up might be in order. Perhaps more attention to the kind of language and syntax that a young girl might use (although I liked the odd "Chill!" for instance). The expression "supper incognito" somehow jarred on me.
I also felt there could be some improvement on the dialogue that led to Mona leaving her father with young Connie. I wasn't sure it flowed naturally. That may just because I don't understand the psychology of whatever it is that makes students lust after their teachers or lecturers. Forty-year-old men seem to have quite magnetic sexual attraction in Fish Tank submissions.
An excellent addition to the Fish Tank Anniversary. I hope, however, that next year's anniversary will take a different nature. Fish are just not very sexy (although I daresay someone is bound to disagree).
Bradley Stoke
http://www.asstr.org/~Bradley_Stoke
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: 02 Aug 2002 03:05:32 GMT
On the plus side: the missing finger thing was handled well all through, as was everything else.
- Mat Twassel
Mat's Erotic Calendar at http://calendar.atEros.com
From: Uther Pendragon
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: 3 Aug 2002 05:51:18 -0600
From: "Desdmona" <[email protected]>
1) Once, long ago, I commented that the "Watson" POV - 1st person, but somebody other than the protagonist - was fine for detective stories, but probably shouldn't be used for sex stories. I changed my mind and later wrote two stories ("He Doesn't" and "For Now") from that POV. That said, having the POV character other than one of the two lovers is a hard but effective technique. The author brings it off delightfully.
2) The author plays out the opening conceit/theme of the presence of the missing very well. (What the dog did in the night, speaking of Watson.)
1) Since Mona is the POV character, you might consider starting from her point of view. Starting with "Patrick" doesn't help the reader into the Mona POV.
2) The parenthesis in this sentence lacks something. "Her father wasn't old (Well, forty wasn't ancient!) just easily distracted, engaged sometimes in conflicts with inertia." Or maybe it has more that it needs - or both.
If you have a parenthesis inside a sentence, it doesn't take a period inside the parenthesis, much less an exclamation mark.
Alternatively, you could write: "Her father wasn't old. (Well, forty wasn't ancient!) He was just easily distracted, engaged sometimes in conflicts with inertia."
Uther Pendragon FAQs http://www.nyx.net/~anon584c [email protected] fiqshn http://www.asstr.org/~Uther_Pendragon
From: Desdmona
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 08:46:35 -0400
John~
What a very nice story. I really like the relationship between father and daughter. I was a little surprised though that Mona was so willing to set him up with someone her own age.(Or at least one year older) I can fully believe that Mona is ready to have her dad branch out, start to date, etc. But the dynamics here are a little more difficult. Not only is there the dating, and dad won't be all hers anymore. (After all, they've only had each other for a while) But we also have to believe that Mona isn't disturbed by her dad dating someone in Mona's peer group. The majority of teenage girls would think it's an abomination. That's not to say, I don't believe it ever happens, it does, but I'm having difficulty believing that Mona's pushing it. In fact, it seems more plausible to me that Mona's reaction would be more like, "God, dad, she's my age! That's gross!" And remember, if Patrick were dating someone in Mona's peer group, it would suddenly become the topic of conversation for the rest of the peers.
If Connie were older, say by 5 years, two things would happen for me, Mona, at 17, would easily think Connie at 23 was someone older. And Patrick would be able to look at Connie more as a woman, and less as a student. Patrick has morals, and I absolutely love that about him. He's a teacher. And teacher/student relationships are still frowned upon. It would be difficult to only know a girl as your student and in one year's time change that whole way of thinking. Whereas, after 5 years, there would be slight changes in Connie's appearance and maybe her mannerisms that would attract Patrick in a different way. Would he really want to date a girl that might say, "Chill?"
And the banter between the girls about the flirting wouldn't even have to change much, Patrick would have been as attractive five years earlier as he was a year ago. Maybe more so, he was still brooding then. Nothing more attractive than a brooding English teacher. I can even see Mona asking, "Girls liked my dad back then, too?"
I've belabored the point. I'm sorry. Maybe because this storyline touches a chord with me or maybe because this story is just too good not to want it to be even better. I realize that men date women twenty years their junior, but daughters usually need a little time to adjust to it.
Thanks so much John for contributing! The fishtank anniversary stories, though parts similar, I'm still amazed at the creative and unique ways that keep popping up.
Des
From: cmsix
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 14:35:14 GMT
"Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
Mom's been gone since Mona's birthday number twelve. That's five years, nearly a third of her life and more than a third of her significant memory.
I think we got more than enough of Mona's character to keep anything like that from entering her mind or exiting her mouth. Just because she is seventeen and female we don't have to automatically make her an airhead. She worked it out on her own that her mother was cheating on her father and that it finally destroyed their home. She's lived with just her father for five years and watched him "missing Mom or missing something".
Mona sees a chance for him to get laid. The girl is attractive to him and he to her. It's legal, and she already knows that he isn't going to do any fishing on his own. Her early introductory incestuous fantasies seem to have evaporated completely. I just can't see Mona with any heavy morality trip over the age difference and I can't see her passing up this chance to get him started. Constance will no doubt be back at the U soon and if anything more long lasting develops you'll have a little extra time to get comfortable with it.
cmsix
From: Desdmona
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 12:52:58 -0400
"cmsix" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
<snip>
I believe that Mona's maturity is what allows her to want to set her dad up. It's not easy for her. She takes the time to list (in her mind) why it's a good thing to do. The fact that an opportunity arises to force her to make this decision is a good plot tool. But what purpose does it serve the story to make the set up be with an 18 yr old? If there is a purpose, beyond male fantasy, great!. But I'd like to know the reason, which only the author can supply. Knowing the reason might go a long way in reducing the credibility issue that I have with a 17 yr old having no issues with her dad dating/fucking an 18 yr old.
Your explanation "it's legal and they're attracted to one another" sounds like the rationalization most men who are 40, and dating an 18 yr old probably have. Or worse, a 40 yr old who just wants to get laid by an 18 yr old. In another story, a story about fantasy, that works. In this story, wrought with painful history such as Mona huddling behind a toilet in fear, or the tender emotions of childhood fantasies not easily discussed, ending with male fantasy #2 seems like a cheat. That's my point, which I may have failed to get across.
Des
From: cmsix
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 18:17:09 GMT
"Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
And what is wrong with male fantasy? Did I miss something here, are we supposed to be writing true life confessions? Do women not think about younger men? What is the possible purpose of erotica if it isn't to focus attention on sexual situations that aren't normal in everyday life?
cmsix
"Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
From: Desdmona
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 17:35:28 -0400
"cmsix" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
There's absolutely nothing wrong with male fantasy. I applaud it. But I don't agree with your conclusion that erotica's possible purpose is to focus on sexual situations that aren't in normal everyday life. I believe erotica can also be about sex that must be considered normal by your definition. But I can certainly believe that the father in this story has/had fantasies about this young girl, and if the story had been told from his point of view, her young age would probably be paramount to the story. But the story we are talking about is being told from the viewpoint of a 17 yr. old girl.
The author makes the effort to show us how difficult the decision was for the daughter to even set her father up. I think there should be at least a little effort shown how she feels about her 40 year old father with an 18 yr. old girl.
Maybe the author decided to make the other girl 18 because of his own male fantasy. Then that's fine, he is the author, after all. But for me (and maybe just me) it does a disservice to the rest of the story in ways I've already stated in previous posts.
Des
From: cmsix
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 22:16:06 GMT
I guess we can agree to disagree at least. It made the story better in my opinion and since I'm fifty three I guess I should be ashamed of myself. Somehow I'm not though.
cmsix
"Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
From: dennyw
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 20:35:40 -0700
On Sun, 4 Aug 2002 17:35:28 -0400, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> held forth, saying:
(I've not -yet- read the story)
and, upthread:
My first thought was - who would his 17yo daughter be able to set him up with? Would she have that sort of relationship with a 30yo woman? Probably not. But she might well have such with someone basically of her own age, yes?
Would her feelings be that different about her father with a (fex) 30yo than with an 18yo? (I truly don't know.) My feeling is that she'd have 'oh, ickypoo' sorts of thoughts wrt any woman her father was sexually involved with. ("Parents? Sex? My parent??") - but I'm older than cmsix, so my grasp of how teenage girls think is far, FAR from good.
-denny- (curmudgeon)
"There are two tragedies in life.
One is to lose your heart's desire. The other is to gain it." - G.B. Shaw
From: cmsix
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 13:44:50 GMT
You can't be older than me. I'm older than dirt. I distinctly remember the day the deliverymen brought us the first television in town. (My father owned the GE dealership then). It couldn't get a picture because there weren't any stations in range yet.
cmsix
<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 18:44:22 -0600
On Sun, 04 Aug 2002 18:17:09 GMT, "cmsix" <[email protected]> wrote:
The rest of the story sets up a situation which which could be true, doesn't fall into the realm of just fantasy. So while Connie may be OK as an 18 yo falling for a man over twice her age, and the man's daughter might be OK with that too, it needs a bit more explanation of why all three seem OK with the situation.
It isn't an impossible situation. It just requires all three to be in agreement about the propriety of the situation. Connie, to have a serious crush, one which she is willing to pursue now that she is an adult. There are 18 yo's who feel that is appropriate; I was one of those sorts (my judgement on who was too old to go out with changed once I turned 18, though over twice my age was still a stretch).
He has to be OK with the situation. Not just as a fantasy, because that is easy to get into. In a real dating situation, especially after not doing it at all for so long, being pushed into it by two younger people might seem intrusive. It makes more sense if, in his heart, he's already considered doing that. At least as a fantasy, but with the seriousness which an adult should apply fantasy desires.
Not that all adults do use adult judgement when pursuing relationships. It is just that he seems sufficiently careful, aware of the dangers, to avoid going ahead without thinking it over.
Mona is the last one who needs a better reason to consider a classmate as a potential stepmom. She is mature, but is she old enough to consider herself independent, so that a new step-mom would be a friend, not a competitor or hassle as an authority figure?
Maybe. I think that Mona's decision-making picks up the positives for Dad, but not enough about why she is fine with him going out with someone so young.
Which comes to something I commented on. The whole situation makes more sense if Mona was aware of Connie's crush, including her bra-less teasing, and was also aware that her dad reciprocated this somewhat. To have a chance meeting let her "invent" the relationship on the spot seems like too much.
But if both had desires for the other prior to the meeting, and Mona knew about them beforehand, then pushing them to reveal them (Mona talked with her dad about flirty girls in his class, and she also talked with Connie (or one of Connie's friends) and knew that her intentions were more than just play-flirting.
Mona still plays the key role. She knows their mutual secrets, and a chance meeting lets her kick them both into contact. Once each knows that the other really is interested in a possible relationship, it is easier to see them going for it so casually.
Otherwise, it just seems to awkward. From the older male viewpoint, I think I'd insist that my daughter comes along, rather than moving right into a fresh surprise date. If the relationship is possible, then a day spent talking like adults would be well spent, slowly working my way into a situation where I feel comfortable.
Plus learning whether the other two are really OK with the whole arrangement. It is one thing to have a short fling for fun, and lots of dating situations just don't go anywhere. If this is one where it could work out, but only if the complications are resolved (two biggies, age difference and - always a factor - daughter's approval).
Now, I could read between the lines and say that my presumption of mutual desire is there. If I do that, then it makes more sense as more than just a fantasy. The coincidental meeting is lucky, but sometimes such lucky meetings happen.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Shadow Wolf
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: 5 Aug 2002 12:19:53 -0500
Jeff Zephyr <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
cmsix mentioned Mona's early incestuous fantasies, which she seems to have gotten over. Perhaps, though, she's using Connie as a substitute for herself - she can't have sex with her dad, but her friend can ...
Shadow Wolf
[email protected]
Stories at http://www.asstr.org/~Shadow_Wolf
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 13:38:00 -0600
On 5 Aug 2002 12:19:53 -0500, Shadow Wolf <[email protected]> wrote:
Kind of like having her "sister" do it? Maybe. I still think that the impact on herself would come up. Much easier to consider if this wasn't the first time she'd thought about the subject, if not the exact situation.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: john
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: 4 Aug 2002 18:23:36 -0700
Thank you, of course, all of you. For your kindness and your help. Is it kosher to stop right here? I didn't think so.
About my use of language.
I've had the misfortune of watching a People's language actually die. It is wrenching. I'm not a linguist, but I love English. I would not want to abuse it; I believe the consequences of what we write are potentially severe. I'm simply not always sure how to balance the poetry of sounds with the strictures of convention and the goal of communication. No one is. All of your suggestions seem true, but some need juxtaposing to the music to which I'm trying to dance. Language changes. That's the way it avoids death, I think. I'll review it, though. I do appreciate your careful reading.
About the fantasy.
I don't think it would matter, Des. why I chose to write about that situation. The attraction-abomination-pain-fetish-taboo of it seemed just like the missing finger to me as I wrote. That it wasn't for you, is sufficient. But. I want to say I'm sorry, particularly to you and to any others that it rankled (and not just as a Canadianism).
Since the story was intended as a tribute, especially, I'm sorry that it touched your nerve. I know. I nearly lost a friendship with a writer who dared to write about a rape as something erotic. I couldn't get past the horrific implications of the piece. In no way would I ask you to do that with this story either. The issue is a real one, but to one person or another, so is most of the fodder of erotica. Story codes might help (although not in this case) in the extreme. This wasn't extreme. My stuff isn't.
Bummer. Of all the people in the tank, I hoped that you would like it.
To Cain
Don't look too long or hard. The only things I've written are two short fishtank things and an even shorter Rom Fest piece.
From: Desdmona
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 23:14:03 -0400
"john" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
That's just my point, John. What you wrote about the missing finger was detailed, explained, and it made the fetish all the more real. But when it came to the young girl, everyone just accepted it like it was the most normal thing in the world. What if while the daughter is contemplating why it's a good thing to set her father up, what if she just says something to address the age thing. "So what if she's my age, she seems to like my dad."
I don't know, I've gone on about this much more than I needed to so I'm the one who should be apologizing not you!
That it wasn't for
Ah, but John, I did like it! Very much. I think it's a great story. I love the plot. I like the way you presented the history. It was only that one minor point that I had difficulty with. And it may very well be that I'm the only one that did.
But that's the beauty of the FishTank. Differing opinions. My opinion is no more important than anyone else that contributes! I honestly believe that. And another thing, this anniversary is for the FishTank, not me. It's to celebrate its survival for one year. And what better way to do that then to have a story that raises a little controversy. Consider your submission a great one. I do.
Des
From: dennyw
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 20:26:32 -0700
On 4 Aug 2002 18:23:36 -0700, [email protected] (john) held forth, saying:
I have to ask - what language?
-denny- (curmudgeon)
"There are two tragedies in life.
One is to lose your heart's desire. The other is to gain it." - G.B. Shaw
From: dennyw
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 06:36:48 GMT
On Mon, 05 Aug 2002 13:44:50 GMT, "cmsix" <[email protected]> wrote:
Did the deliveryman use a horse? <g>
Lessee - -leaving out Uther and smilodon, who are special cases - TTBOMK Garvin is the oldest regular, then Frank McCoy, then me. cmsix is the only other regular here (IIRC of course) who's >50.
We're all a bunch of dirty old men. :)
From: Gary Jordan
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: 07 Aug 2002 07:09:45 GMT
Up scope.
So Waldorf (AKA Denny) says:
"If you remembered correctly, I wouldn't be posting this correction," Statler points out. He sighs. "Memory is the third thing to go."
A long pause ... "Say, are you implying I'm irregular?"
My scope has fallen and it can't get up.
Gary Jordan
"Old submariners never die; they just don't get to go down as often." <I>"This communicating of a man's self to his friend works two contrary effects, for it redoubleth joys, and cutteth griefs in half." - Francis Bacon, Essays </I>
From: dennyw
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 18:21:06 GMT
On 07 Aug 2002 07:09:45 GMT, [email protected] (Gary Jordan) wrote:
Why do you think I put in the qualifier?? I knew I didn't remember if you'd hit the big five-oh yet.
In the Dictionary of special Usenet terms, Statler is described as an irregular verb. (we won't go anywhere near the definition)
Waldorf remarks, "Now I know why Statler no longer signs himself 'rom-solo.'"
From: Ray
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 20:08:16 -0400
<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
Thank you .... since I still have until November, I guess that still makes me a dirty minded young-un <g>
Oh, for information ... until I was 7, our milk was delivered daily by horse-drawn cart ... nice and rich and Ice cold in it's ice-house carriage. Unless you live on the farm, you can't get milk like that today. :)
Ray
From: Uther Pendragon
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: 5 Aug 2002 11:13:24 -0600
1) No, the purpose of erotica is to arouse. And arousing situations are quite common in everyday life.
2) I may be missing something obvious here, but. Why is it necessary for the man to be a High School teacher.
Let him be a college professor, and the situation is much more believable. Two years out of college (instead of one year out of high school) and the woman is mature by anyone's standards. And she is out of the daughter's age grade, if nowhere near the father's.
Uther Pendragon FAQs http://www.nyx.net/~anon584c [email protected] fiqshn http://www.asstr.org/~Uther_Pendragon
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: 06 Aug 2002 22:23:12 GMT
Uther writes:
Interesting solution. My take on this story (in its current form) is that the daughter would be much less likely to matchmake if the ex-student were not more or less her peer. Lots of reasons for that: the most interesting connects with a comment made earlier in this thread: the daughter (perhaps unconsciously or semi-consciously) is looking for someone to substitute for herself. Maybe she'd deny it, but I think it's there. Okay, the evidence in the story is slight; but even slight evidence is important, else why have it in the story at all?
- Mat Twassel
Mat's Erotic Calendar at http://calendar.atEros.com
From: Souvie
Re: Of Things No Longer There, by john
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 03:30:39 GMT
On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 06:56:33 -0400, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote:
Okay, I'm way late with posting this, so I'm bound to repeat. But I wanted to let my voice be heard. lol
Positive: Wonderful use of imagery. Some examples:
and
Positive: No jarring interruption of the narrative or awkward paragraphs. Made for a nice flow and easy reading.
Improve: The finding two positives thing was nice, but I had to read that part twice because I didn't understand it the first time through.
Improve: Mona seemed a bit brazen. Maybe it's just me and I'm out of touch with teenagers these days, but she struck me as too forward, there near the end. I enjoy an open relationship with my parents, but I'm 32 and I wouldn't ever think of saying stuff like:
- Souvie
Submitting new story comments
The web site does not currently support submitting comments on stories. If you want to join in the discussion on this story, come to the thread in alt.sex.stories.d and post a follow-up.
Note that all the comments archived here were culled from active discussions occuring in the Usenet newsgroup alt.sex.stories.d. If you want to contribute to the discussion, please join us in ASSD and say your piece. Everyone is welcome.
If you do not know how to read Usenet newsgroups, there is a nice web interface on Google: http://groups.google.com/. If you have any problems, send us email. If we're lucky, we'll get you set up and contributing in no time!
If you have not done so, please read the Comment Guidelines. We ask that all comments include two positive remarks and two suggestions for improvement. Please, try not to repeat!