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From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Subway Sweets, by Ray
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 12:54:47 -0600
On 29 Oct 2001 14:58:44 GMT, [email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote:
First, I found the description of the train environment very good. You could imagine the situation very well, and it slowly draws you into the sexy situation.
Second, I really liked the teasing romance. That kind of situation on a bus or train, where you see someone often, even bump into them, isn't too uncommon, so having a tale of it turning into more than just teasing was nice. That she only wanted her affair to happen as a one time thing was also nice (Is that too many nice things?). There wasn't any strong hint that it would be otherwise, but it was nice to see the lady go after what she wanted.
It is a lot harder to think up negatives about it, since I liked it a lot.
OK, while I got the impression that the guy was an American, or perhaps English, it wasn't all that clear what he was like. Maybe that doesn't matter, since it lets the reader imagine that he is like whatever they are. All that I am fairly sure of is that he looked foreign, and read English language papers.
The ending praise about his pleasure at a succession of firsts seems to contrast strongly with how willing he was to go along with her seduction of him. He doesn't give the impression of being one who is quite so innocent - maybe, he's only had a few partners, not enough variety? Still, somewhere earlier, I think that he might compare this new girl to his past ones, especially if she stands out as unusual (and no panties on the subway might qualify).
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Subway Sweets, by Ray
Date: 29 Oct 2001 20:40:51 GMT
I was working in Japan and daily had to ride the subway trains back and forth to work. It was July and ungodly hot, with humidity levels off the scale. During the morning and afternoon rush hours, the trains were horrible. Always packed to capacity, plus extra people. The subways were so over-worked and over-packed, that they hired 'packers'. During rush hours, these people showed up in uniforms, with little white pith helmets on their heads and did their jobs on the subway platforms. Their jobs? Train packing. When everyone had squeezed into a car, and it was obvious that no one else could fit, it was there job to force another two or three bodies into each car, literally tugging and pushing people to make them fit like sardines in a can.
It's interesting how the expression of "packing" itself gets packed in this opening. Intentional? I'm not sure that it wouldn't be better if it were steamlined. I'm not sure I understand the tugging. Are the packers inside the car? If so, how do they get out?
After I'd been there a few weeks, I began
A bit of humor (intentional?). "There" is too vague for my taste.
her right
hand was resting dead on the crotch of my pants
dead: interesting word choice
That afternoon,
"That" makes us think this trip will be significant, but it's really not.
Her white
skirt rising slowly like a curtain, in a fine theater play. Revealing first the tops of her thighs. Then the tips of fine ...
I like this scene, this description (generally), this image and action.
The hand was not still today as she pulled herself tightly to me, but hidden by the length of my jacket was rubbing slowly and squeezing gently at my scrotum. Her hips, instead of pulling tight against my leg, she held back slightly, allowing me to use my fingers to raise the front of her skirt slightly for access
I find this erotic. You need to review the grammar and syntax here and elsewhere. Lots of little cleanups needed!
and I had
pleasant thoughts til my departure at the next stop.
Implying that he doesn't think about her during the day?
It was a day of firsts in more ways than one for me. It was the
Too much summarizing. The pace and tension of the story up to here is excellent. Nothing wrong with a burst balloon ending, but these details are at cross-purposes. I would have enjoyed the same detailed attention to their locker room sex that you provided duirng the train rides. Give us at least a few strong paragraphs of passion. Then figure out an ending which completes the connection and reveals the characters. One other suggestion: The line of the story, especially near the end, might be easier to manage if you change the "effective" tense. The story shouldn't be told from a distant vantage. Even if recounted in past tense, it should be more immediate; it might even be worth trying present tense.
I enjoyed this story. I like it so much that I urge you to rewrite it.
- Mat Twassel
From: Frank McCoy
Re: Subway Sweets, by Ray
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 00:52:37 GMT
[email protected] (Gary) wrote:
1) 2 positve comments
1. The slow buildup before deliberate contact was made was an erotic tease. You just knew it was coming, but it took its own sweet time, like Christmas when you were five.
2. An aggressive Japanese woman is a stereotype buster. I like that.
2) 2 things to improve
The first time he ever orgasmed during oral sex? I find that difficult to believe. (Make me believe it.)
As said elsewhere, SOME men have a hard time reaching orgasm with oral sex. I know ... I'm one. I LOVE oral sex ... but have an almost impossible time reaching orgasm that way. Which makes it a GREAT way to make love; because I can go for hours that way, remaining hard, without ... uh ... "blowing it." Only I really need regular vaginal intercourse afterwards, or I'll end up with a case of the sorest case of "blue balls" there ever was.
There's another position of "making love" that I enjoy tremendously, for similar reasons. That's with me sitting tailor-fashion between the woman's legs while I fuck her.
The SECOND woman I ever had sex with, I did it that way ... More from inexperience, and not KNOWING any other way to do it, than anything else. A sad (but sexy) scene. After having sex for half an hour, in the TIGHTEST woman I've ever been ... or really ever imagined being in ... I never did get my rocks off. She finally had to call it quits.
It wasn't until my next time that I figured out it was that position that didn't provide the needed body-contact, that was at fault.
For that's what the trouble with oral sex and that position have in common. I NEED body contact, to (even with a hooker) make the fantasy of making-love come real. For some reason, just sex alone doesn't do it. When my wife (finally) managed to get me off orally for the first time, we had almost continuous body-contact. A lot of trouble for her; but I really appreciated it.
I still MUCH prefer normal vaginal intercourse though. Almost any position EXCEPT that one I tried the second time will work. Snuggled up almost side-by-side is a wonderful way to spend hours together, yet reach a most satisfactory conclusion when you both get excited.
(Does that help you believe it? It's true, whether you believe it or not.)
The sex scene is somewhat less graphic than the events leading up to it would lead you to expect, and it seemed that the sequencing was cock-eyed. Some of the revelations of first could have been presented during, rather than after. Although it was touching, it wasn't entirely satisfying.
3) Try not to repeat
I went first! YAY.
Gary
"Old submariners never die as long as they can still get the scope up."
"This communicating of a man's self to his friend works two contrary effects, for it redoubleth joys, and cutteth griefs in half." - Francis Bacon, Essays
/ ' /
,-/-, . __ /
(/ / ((/|/ / </ <
From: Frank McCoy
Re: Subway Sweets, by Ray
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 00:38:54 GMT
[email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote:
1) 2 positve comments
1. I liked it VERY much.
2. I don't like sex stories that leave you hanging.
This one had a satisfactory conclusion to all the teasing.
2) 2 things to improve
Was too busy reading to notice imperfections. Sorry.
Twas sad it had to end that way; but that's life. (I had dreams of them getting married, and all that.)
3) Try not to repeat
Thanks.
/ ' /
,-/-, . __ /
(/ / ((/|/ / </ <
From: Anoninsac
Re: Subway Sweets, by Ray
Date: 29 Oct 2001 13:57:42 -0800
A couple things I liked: First I liked the development of the story. Subtle things like her dress becoming gradually more provocative. The way the touching became gradually more provacative and then slowly acknowledged by the characters.
I liked the setting. How do you set a sex story in the middle of a Tokyo subway car? But you did it, very well done.
Didn't like:
Well, maybe didn't like was overstated, but it struck me as a stretch that a Japanese woman would be wanting to hump this Gaijin just days before her wedding. On the other hand, marriage isn't always what modern Japanese women want so maybe it isn't such a stretch. Anyway, I found myself having to 'get back into' the story and forget about the nagging doubt.
For all the build up and for the narrator's descriptions of all the firsts he experienced I thought the actual sex scene was lacking. Don't tell me, show me. If this really was the culmination of months of build up and the narrator was experiencing all these things for the first time IMHO the story should show these things happening.
From: Desdmona
Re: Subway Sweets, by Ray
Date: 02 Nov 2001 13:50:36 GMT
Subway Sweets (MF Cons)
by Ray1031
Ray~
This is a wonderful story. The scene is well set, I almost feel like I'm on the subway with them. In fact, I was disappointed when they leave the train and go to the bathroom. Other comments have suggested that the sex scene in the bathroom needs to be extended, drawn out, like the teasing on the train itself. I agree that if leaving the train is an integral part of your story then yes, the sex in the bathroom needs extending, but I also tend to think I would have been satisfied with a completion of whatever "act" right on the subway. I realize actual intercourse maybe quite difficult to pull off, but do they have to have actual intercourse?
For me, the subway ride is not only a setting, but also a major "character" in the story. When they leave it behind, it feels like a major character has been left behind as well.
If they stay on the train, she (who's about to be married) still explores something that's been driving her nuts, and he still experiences a "first." Something to think about anyway.
There are a couple of phrases, "Her white skirt rising slowly like a curtain, in a fine theater play ..." and " ...the finest patina of sweat beaded on her upper lip ..." coupled with the entire subway ride being referred to as a "dance" that really work for me. I love the contrast of this "artsy" stuff compared to the mundane, everyday routine of the train ride. It adds a touch of class. Maybe that's another reason why I don't want them to leave the subway (I'm harping, I know) but when they take it to the bathroom, it all of a sudden becomes less of a dance, less special, and less of a "class act."
Anyway, this story has that "something special." It makes me think, how can a story be all about sex, and yet it doesn't seem like a sex story, but rather a story that happens to have sex in it? With a little more proofing, and fine-tuning, it will be one of the best!!
Oh yeah, before I forget ... her outfit in the beginning - yellow sweater, black bra, hot-pink pants, yellow heels, it reminded me of a "Fashion-don't" in Cosmo. All she needed was the black rectangle across her eyes.
And one other thing that made me go, huh? How does her hand from the very beginning end up on his crotch? Every time it's mentioned, I kept thinking, 'so she had to have a pole to hang on to?'
Thanks, Ray!
Des
From: PleaseCain
Re: Subway Sweets, by Ray
Date: 03 Nov 2001 01:33:14 GMT
This story idea is very arousing, the daring and sweet naughtiness of it. There was a similar story posted around 1994-5 called "The Metro," set in Paris, that was very good, but I like your Oriental setting better, with the demure and passive female behaving so brazenly in public. It adds to the turn-on.
The language throughout requires a few editings. Sentences such as
My left arm travelled to it's normal place behind her back, but she trapped my right arm and guided my hand to the front of her short skirt before placing her left hand in it's customary position over my groin.
are clear in meaning, and yet the thought could be conveyed in half the words, so that it doesn't sound like an instruction manual. This is something I am working on as well! Hack away or condense wherever possible, then shelve its to leap previous character for a couple weeks, then give it another read-through, and even more will become apparent to you. Rinse, repeat. Rinse, repeat.
Against all the detailed description of the story, the resolution seemed slapped-together. The characters take coy babysteps into their deepening tryst, featuring nice sexual tension sustained for pages, and then they not only consummate but fuck twice more by the end of the same paragraph. Likewise the aside about Japanese toilets; it's too jolting and set apart, whereas the information could be worked into the prose more naturally.
Good work, great idea. I'm going to read it again now. Imagine, what if they never consummate their flirtation? Or, never actually speak? Do we all have wistful memories like that?
Cain
From: PleaseCain
Re: Subway Sweets, by Ray
Date: 03 Nov 2001 01:48:46 GMT
Hack away or condense wherever possible, then shelve its to leap previous character for a couple weeks, then give it another read-through, and even more will become apparent to you.
You make commence the hacking with this very sentence - sorry, I'm breaking in a voice recognition package.
From: Poison Ivan
Re: Subway Sweets, by Ray
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 23:02:54 -0500
Sorry to have disappeared from the Fish Tank for a couple weeks. Had some other things take most of my attention for a while.
But what a great story to come back to! To me, the key to a good sex story is the opening tease, and you have a first class tease going on here. I love the way the contact changes, from smells, to innocent leaning, to more blatant contact. And having her come back "with a vengeance" after a mild illness was inspired!
On the negative side, I thought the opening couple paragraphs were a little bit "loose." For a short story, especially at the start, it's best to make all your words work hard. While there were no sentences that exactly repeat the thoughts of other sentences, there is quite a bit of overlap.
So my primary suggestion: cut the opening two paragraphs down to 150 words (currently, they're 231 words). That's pretty ambitious, and 150 words might be too much cutting, but I think you should be able to say what you're saying here in a lot less space.
My second suggestion is to come up with a more imaginative simile than "sardines" for your people-packing. "Sardines" is a bit of a clich,, and since you refer to it a couple times during the story, I think it's worth coming up with something unique.
But mostly, you just have a good, sexy, story here. I really liked the ending, the way she drifted away. It wrapped up the story nicely.
Great job, Ray.
Poison Ivan
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Subway Sweets, by Ray
Date: 01 Nov 2001 02:23:13 GMT
3) Try not to repeat
Seems there's been a lot of repitition regarding the ending, i.e. not enough detail. I'm one of the guilty parties. So let me pick something fresh - the title. I don't get it. I don't like it.
- Mat
From: Uther Pendragon
Re: Subway Sweets, by Ray
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 01:45:04 GMT
From: [email protected] (Desdmona22)
A couple of Fishtank updates:
[snip]
Recently, I sent a post requesting feedback about the future of the FishTank. Because my initial intent was always to encourage discussion in ASSD, I'm giving more thought to what is next. I appreciate those who commented both publically and privately.
I will try to keep participating as long as the tank is still posted on ASSD. I might read the web, but I won't post there.
And without futher ado, presenting our 15th submission. FishTank guidelines:
1) 2 positve comments
The situation. The narrator was in the woman's control.
The slow build up.
2) 2 things to improve
I'll just go with it needs a proof-read. "Simply standing against me in as complete a contact as she could manage unobtrusively," e.g. is not a sentence.
I would have prefered the same attention to detail in the sex scene as in the lead-up to it.
Uther Pendragon FAQs http://www.nyx.net/~anon584c [email protected] fiqshn http://www.asstr.org/~Uther_Pendragon
From: Ray
Re: Subway Sweets, by Ray
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 02:43:12 -0500
Let me start by thanking all of the respondents for their time and thoughts.
Second, there did seem to be one thing repeated all week ... Compliments on the scene and the slow build up. The description of the on-going flirtation as a dance was also well received. For these complimentary words, I thank you.
There was also a secondary issue that was constantly remarked upon, all week. The general dissatisfaction with the ending - a feeling I also share but is something I will address again, in a few moments.
Let me apologize first, for taking a comment by Gary, 'to the streets' immediately after he posted it. I should have waited, but it did create a rather interesting side-thread for a few days. I think I may have actually exorcised an old demon, doing it.
Everyone who understood the public image personified over the years in the docile, submissive Japanese female enjoyed the image busting aspects of her aggressiveness. That was a wholly contrived effect and I' happy it was successful.
Frank commented that he so thoroughly enjoyed the story he didn't look for mistakes (one hell of a commentary by itself) I thank you for the comment, sir.
Jeff had 'trouble locating negatives' But pointed up something to me I had missed. The newspaper was 'English language' - My Boo Boo - I intentionally left the male's characterization rather bland, without specific identifications. I wanted him simply a Foreigner; a Gaijin'. With as little individual personality displayed as possible. In this way I wanted to allow the reader to fill himself into the roll for a more fluid fantasy effect.
Matt, the 'packers and their job' have already been more thoroughly, if briefly explained.
Anoninsac, you found another omission I missed. In Japanese, there are a few different words for Marriage. One such almost always implies an 'arranged' affair (usually familial). I had full intent of mentioning reference to this. Though, even today, it is a practice that does still thrive.
Anoninsac or Cain disliked the Title, and it was submitted with the wrong name attached. Though the actual title was not much different. It was intended to be named "Subway Sweetness" and will be when it is posted.
Desdmona and Cain, both brought up an interesting point. Why take the action to the Locker Room at all?
Des also brought up the rather gaudy and distasteful color of the woman's attire when first noticed. I have only one explanation for this (okay, two explanations). First, I'm male. Worse, I'm an unmarried male - always have been. Women don't usually start beating fashion sense into their men until after they have them shackled and bound to servitude. Second, I did actually see this particular clothing selection on a young college age Japanese woman while in Japan. Of course, that was in the early to mid-seventies and at the beginnings of the Disco era there. Lots of weird combination back then. If you have better - more apt - color combinations in mind, email them to me.
Finally: a small note to all ... This story was submitted to Des over a week before it was posted. In the intervening time I had already rewritten it twice. Many of the recommended changes had already been made by the time posting occurred. I did not send a replacement because I wanted to see if I was moving in the right direction.
As for the ending of the story, the actual sex was always intended to be downplayed ... thought not as cryptically or unsubtly as it was. Since attempting to rewrite it four times since, trying to both increase the graphics a bit, yet still keep it subtle (and failing miserably I might add). I had reached a conclusion. The same one proposed - somewhat - by both Desdmona and Cain. Get rid of the LockerRoom entirely and keep all the action on the train. The ending will be somewhat more bittersweet this way, but the overall story should be smoother and just as erotic.
Thoughts?
Thanks
Ray
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Subway Sweets, by Ray
Date: 03 Nov 2001 23:43:08 GMT
Ray writes:
The same one proposed - somewhat - by both Desdmona and Cain. Get rid of the LockerRoom entirely and keep all the action on the train. The ending will be somewhat more bittersweet this way, but the overall story should be smoother and just as erotic.
Thoughts?
I'm happy you liked the Desdomona/Cain suggestion about the ending, and I'm eager to see what you do with it. Are you going to post the next version? Maybe we need an arena for the rewrites. The Frying Pan?
- Mat Twassel
From: PleaseCain
Re: Subway Sweets, by Ray
Date: 03 Nov 2001 23:56:43 GMT
Good on you, Ray, for bravery.
For as vast an arena as sex is, I can never understand why every story must end in coitus and simultaneous orgasms and fluids splooshed on all four walls and ceiling.
Cain
From: Ray
Re: Subway Sweets, by Ray
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 20:52:17 -0500
"mat twassel" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
Ray writes:
The same one proposed - somewhat - by both Desdmona and Cain. Get rid of the LockerRoom entirely and keep all the action on the train. The ending will be somewhat more bittersweet this way, but the overall story should be smoother and just as erotic.
Thoughts?
I'm happy you liked the Desdomona/Cain suggestion about the ending, and I'm eager to see what you do with it. Are you going to post the next version? Maybe we need an arena for the rewrites. The Frying Pan?
- Mat Twassel
Someone already mentioned reposting stories to the Fish Tank, after rewrites. Simply no one has done it yet.
I will probably go with the posting route, though.
Ray
From: Ray
Re: Subway Sweets, by Ray
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 01:21:33 -0500
"PleaseCain" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
Good on you, Ray, for bravery.
For as vast an arena as sex is, I can never understand why every story must end in coitus and simultaneous orgasms and fluids splooshed on all four walls and ceiling.
Cain
Uh ... The room needed repainting? <g>
Ray
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From: Gary Jordan
Re: Subway Sweets, by Ray
Date: 29 Oct 2001 16:24:50 GMT
1. The slow buildup before deliberate contact was made was an erotic tease. You just knew it was coming, but it took its own sweet time, like Christmas when you were five.
2. An aggressive Japanese woman is a stereotype buster. I like that.
The first time he ever orgasmed during oral sex? I find that difficult to believe. (Make me believe it.)
The sex scene is somewhat less graphic than the events leading up to it would lead you to expect, and it seemed that the sequencing was cock-eyed. Some of the revelations of first could have been presented during, rather than after. Although it was touching, it wasn't entirely satisfying.
I went first! YAY.
Gary
"Old submariners never die as long as they can still get the scope up."
"This communicating of a man's self to his friend works two contrary effects, for it redoubleth joys, and cutteth griefs in half." - Francis Bacon, Essays