Fish Tank Story Comments - Starshadow and Friends

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From: Eli the Bearded
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 01:17:43 +0000 (UTC)

In alt.sex.stories.d, Desdmona <[email protected]> wrote:

The story that follows is one chapter in the series/serial 'Starshadow and

The substantial backstory involved just to understand this is a stumbling block. That said, the set up is intriguing.

The details of getting dressed were a good introduction to the characters and their forms.

I had a lot of trouble following the action in this scene:

I reached across and gripped her hand. "Look at Sam and Catherine. I've never seen them so edgy."

We were halfway across the lobby when I heard Thad calmly say "Sam, Catherine, isolate and guard."

I nearly fell as Sam suddenly leaned into my legs and forced me out of the center of the lobby. I shivered when two wolves snarled.

Is Thad directing Sam and Catherine or requesting that they be isolated? It reads like the former and but I think you mean the latter.

Another thing that bothers me about this story is that couples abound. No one seems to act on his or her own, save perhaps Thad above, instead they work in pairs. "Sam and I", "Hello Kalelupus, Koretina. I'm Kate and he's Mark," etc.

Elijah

likes the idea of "biosculpting" but is not attracted to this version of it

From: Stasya T. Canine
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 16:10:37 GMT

On Mon, 06 Jan 2003 17:17:43 -0800, Eli the Bearded wrote:

Thanks for your comments, Eli.

Normally I don't do such extended introductions. In this case, there were some clues and background I felt I had to work in somehow even though they weren't essential to the main story line. It's one of the problems with posting part of an ongoing series without posting the whole series again. The intro will be missing whenever I post it on my site. Instead, there will be a brief summary on the index page and a new part that will serve the same purpose in the story itself.

Another problem is that many of the stories that give the background routinely mention zoo/best themes. I strongly feel that it isn't fair for me to ask that non-readers of those read them just to better understand the background this story takes place against.

I had a lot of trouble following the action in this scene:

I reached across and gripped her hand. "Look at Sam and Catherine. I've never seen them so edgy."

We were halfway across the lobby when I heard Thad calmly say "Sam, Catherine, isolate and guard."

I nearly fell as Sam suddenly leaned into my legs and forced me out of the center of the lobby. I shivered when two wolves snarled.

Is Thad directing Sam and Catherine or requesting that they be isolated? It reads like the former and but I think you mean the latter.

Thad is directing Sam and Catherine to isolate and guard Kalelupus and Koretina. I definitely meant it as an order given during a high threat situation.

Blame this on my background. One of the problems military and security professionals face is clear communications during 'combat'. Short, unambiguous orders need to be given. I thought I left enough clues mixed in to indicate that Sam and Catherine were anticipating a high risk situation that Thad and Lisa had warned them about. 'Isolate and guard' were orders given to trigger a series of actions that had been agreed upon in advance. Sam and Catherine, acting in their bodygurd roles, were told to get their charges away from contact with other people first, then once they had Koretina and Kalelupus isolated, guard them. From Kale's pov, the action was unexpected but he knows that when it all hits the fan, you obey your bodyguard without questions until it's over. Sam's questioning of Thad was that of someone asking his commander if the crisis was over. Consider the whole opening, including the lobby scene a military/security operation seen from the pov of a bystander unexpectedly caught in the middle of it.

In a very real sense, the Nightwraiths are not the primary characters until after the scene in the lobby. They are acted upon and react rather than initiate, as they do for the rest of the story. In the context of the series, this is a major transition chapter that allows me to spin off these two for adventures of their own that explore things I can't explore with any of the other characters in the series.

Another thing that bothers me about this story is that couples abound. No one seems to act on his or her own, save perhaps Thad above, instead they work in pairs. "Sam and I", "Hello Kalelupus, Koretina. I'm Kate and he's Mark," etc.

Well, nobody involved lives in a vacuum. The main characters are independent but due to the nature of who they are, they are closely involved with a lot of other people. Famous, rich, bodyguards, full time video and audio monitoring ... Couples and/or teams are inevitable.

Elijah
- - -
likes the idea of "biosculpting" but is not attracted to this version of it

No problem with that. I enjoy the concept but also went off in a different direction than most people have. If you are interested in a good book (the one that introduced me to the concept many years ago), try Samuel Delany's 'Babel-17'. Some furry authors explore it but I can't recall any specific ones. Most transformation stuff I've read uses a non-surgical approach.

My past is deeply colored by its future. That is the nature of memories. Things forgotten, things remembered dimly.

Some things remembered with a painful clarity.

Past, present, future.
All blur together to create what is now. - Liaya Stevens -

http://storiesonline.net/Stasya_T_Canine no logins, no ads, no banners, no cookies - no other annoyances Free, text, thanks to Lazeez at http://storiesonline.net General audience furry stories: http://www.furnation.com/Nikkolai

My past is deeply colored by its future. That is the nature of memories. Things forgotten, things remembered dimly.

Some things remembered with a painful clarity.

Past, present, future.
All blur together to create what is now. - Liaya Stevens -

From: Leowulf
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: 08 Jan 2003 04:30:37 GMT

"Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

The following submission was intended for our anniversary. (Yay! One whole year and counting..) The author has generously set up the story for us as it is part of a longer series. In his own words: "It's the setup and intro to the rest of the story, which will be the actual sex scenes that take place at 'Mom's Place', in the 'Fish Tank', which is the special area where public sex shows are staged."

FishTank guidelines apply:

1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
3) Try not to repeat!

Questions? Submissions? Comments? Direct them to [email protected] or [email protected].

Once again the FishTank website is a little behind in its postings, but that will be taken care of this week. To find past stories and comments go to: http://www.asstr.org/~Desdmona/FishTank

******************************************** The Fish Tank (furry MF caution) The caution is due to the furry characters having canine shaped external genitals. No bestiality takes place.

Starshadow and Friends - The Nightwraiths By Stasya T. Canine [email protected]

An impressive look into a Furry world! The backstory was not a prob for me - I've been constructing fantasy cultures since childhood, especially after discovering RPGs.

Your setting sounds a bit like White Wolf's "Wearwolf" RPG. Of course, you use science instead of mystical Gaian effects, and your furrys are a recognized part of their society. Your world-building is done very well, and you are be aware of some of the peripheral - and not so peripheral - effects of the alterations you are making to the fabric of reality. :)

There's a lot to like about the way the prologue is told. The dialogue presupposes relationships and expectations that the characters have with and for each other. The scene comes from a larger context, not the macroscopic preamble but on a personal scale. It's believable and provokes curiosity about the larger picture.

Your story probably didn't need the caution, even if it does promise lots of furries and related sorts having sex in future episodes. You show Karen, and the reader, a little of what is in store, providing as explicit a picture as any sex story, but you wisely underplay it enough that those uncomfortable with furry or animal sex shouldn't get upset ...

As too suggestions for improvement, I understood what the knife people were doing in the lobby, but some of the dialog and actions assume more knowledge of lupine behavior than some might have. Explanatory phrases or sentences might slow down the story a little, but it's helpful at times. Once you're a few stories in, these "training wheels" shouldn't be needed.

Thanks for posting this - it's a good example for people (like me) who may want to post a series set in a new world with new sexual norms!

Leo the Wulf

From: Stasya T. Canine
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 21:30:27 GMT

On Tue, 07 Jan 2003 20:30:37 -0800, Leowulf wrote:

Your setting sounds a bit like White Wolf's "Wearwolf" RPG. Of course, you use science instead of mystical Gaian effects, and your furrys are a recognized part of their society. Your world-building is done very well, and you are be aware of some of the peripheral - and not so peripheral - effects of the alterations you are making to the fabric of reality. :)

Thanks for the comments. I wouldn't know about any similarities to any of the RPGs. I don't do them and never have. :)

A lot of the awareness is the result of spending lots of time thinking about how things would be if I were to suddenly find myself living as a furry in the modern world. I mention the problems caused by having a tail when you want to get dressed. There are other problems. Something as simple and routine as closing a door at normal speed can get a person in trouble if their tail isn't clear of the opening. How about getting a drink of water from a drinking fountain or a cup? If you don't do it right, you're going to have problems. It's the unconscious habits learned over a lifetime of being human that are going to cause the most problems, expecially when you are under stress.

Your story probably didn't need the caution, even if it does promise lots of furries and related sorts having sex in future episodes. You show Karen, and the reader, a little of what is in store, providing as explicit a picture as any sex story, but you wisely underplay it enough that those uncomfortable with furry or animal sex shouldn't get upset ...

Well ... This part probably didn't need it. I did the coding based on the full story, not this part. Then I decided to leave it alone when I sent it to Desdmona.

As too suggestions for improvement, I understood what the knife people were doing in the lobby, but some of the dialog and actions assume more knowledge of lupine behavior than some might have. Explanatory phrases or sentences might slow down the story a little, but it's helpful at times. Once you're a few stories in, these "training wheels" shouldn't be needed.

cough ... Lupine behavior doesn't apply here. We're seeing trained security people in action. Much of this will be taken care of when I do the new opening and dump the intro.

As for being a few stories in ... That's getting back to all the background built in the rest of the series, posted and unposted. Plus, there's a lot of information given that isn't mentioned directly.

Fex: Bioscuplting is thought of as cosmetic surgery and no big deal. Project Transform is known and the 'experimental subjects' are easily recognized public figures even though there are scuplted people who look much the same. Life outside the institute is dangerous (we don't know if this is a general condition or related to them being associated with the institute) so the institute has assigned individual bodyguards in addition to the monitors.

Thanks for posting this - it's a good example for people (like me) who may want to post a series set in a new world with new sexual norms!

Thanks. <blush> ...

My past is deeply colored by its future. That is the nature of memories. Things forgotten, things remembered dimly.

Some things remembered with a painful clarity.

Past, present, future.
All blur together to create what is now. - Liaya Stevens -

From: Leowulf
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 01:51:30 -0000

"Stasya T. Canine" <[email protected]> wrote in news:T10U9.4022$%[email protected]:

cough ... Lupine behavior doesn't apply here. We're seeing trained security people in action. Much of this will be taken care of when I do the new opening and dump the intro.

You know more about your subject than I ever will. But the behavior you describe sounded a bit like behavior that one of my supervisors described in her very loyal wolf-hybrid (though I heard that they aren't called that anymore) once. I don't remember the specifics, but it brought back the memory. It was long ago - maybe the only similarity of the stories was that both descriptions included a wolf-like animal. :)

From: Stasya T. Canine
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 07:20:10 GMT

On Sat, 11 Jan 2003 17:51:30 -0800, Leowulf wrote:

"Stasya T. Canine" <[email protected]> wrote in news:T10U9.4022$%[email protected]:

cough ... Lupine behavior doesn't apply here. We're seeing trained security people in action. Much of this will be taken care of when I do the new opening and dump the intro.

You know more about your subject than I ever will. But the behavior you describe sounded a bit like behavior that one of my supervisors described in her very loyal wolf-hybrid (though I heard that they aren't called that anymore) once. I don't remember the specifics, but it brought back the memory. It was long ago - maybe the only similarity of the stories was that both descriptions included a wolf-like animal. :)

LW

Ah. Wait ...

OK.

I was looking at the overall context rather than individual actions when I replied. I have tried to keep the actions of the individuals consistent with what I know of the behavioral patterns for each species. I've also tried to keep them distinct individuals rather than 'generic'.

One of the problems is that many of the behavior patterns developed by people in security type jobs are very similar to the pack or individual behavior patterns displayed by wolves and other pack-based species.

To get things correct enough so someone familiar with the species can see the action/attitudes as based on that species ...

That's very good news. :)

My past is deeply colored by its future. That is the nature of memories. Things forgotten, things remembered dimly.

Some things remembered with a painful clarity.

Past, present, future.
All blur together to create what is now. - Liaya Stevens -

From: Bradley Stoke
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: 8 Jan 2003 11:11:05 -0800

Stasya

I've not read any of your fiction before, but it's clear that the niche of sex fiction you work in is pretty much different from that of most contributors. A world of "furry" transforms? It sounds pretty horrible really. Like some kind of nightmare to frighten children, but this Doctor Moreau fantasy belongs to a larger world of "furry" sex fiction, which I've seen popping up here and there. I guess we have to accept the fantasy as wholly legitimate, like those for raping children, inserting enemas and eating faeces, which appeals to some but repulses others.

I can't say I really enjoyed the story, but it's clear that you are trying to achieve something more than just zoophile masturbation fantasy. So, I can commend your ambition and intention. I also liked the real attempt to get inside the mindset of these transformed creatures. A bit like Sir Rudyard Kipling in "The Jungle Book", which is also about a human fitting in with wolves. Though of course he was implicitly citing man's superiority over animals as an analogy of the white man's superiority over his native charges in the chauvinistic era of the British Empire.

Your fiction isn't trumpeting the superiority of one race or species over another, but presents the rather odd view that people can have an animal within, perhaps rather like transsexuals say they feel they are really the other sex to the one they most physically resemble. It's not a phenomenon I've come across, but it wouldn't surprise me if it were true of many people.

I didn't like the fact there was so much we needed to know for the story to make any sense at all. And even after all the exposition, it still felt incomplete. This is a very complex universe, and one that demands a great deal from a reader who might not wish to devote the time to understand the universe well. I was also a little uncertain about the dialogue. It didn't read very natural to me. But then, neither does the dialogue in "The Jungle Book". And I didn't warm to this rigid rule-bound society at all, but then wolf packs are hierarchical institutions I guess. If we want a bit of freedom, perhaps we'd be better off if our human protagonists were more enthusiastic about being bonobos rather than wolves.

Bradley Stoke

http://www.asstr.org/~Bradley_Stoke

From: dennyw
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 13:55:20 -0800

On 8 Jan 2003 11:11:05 -0800, [email protected] (Bradley Stoke) wrote:

I've not read any of your fiction before, but it's clear that the niche of sex fiction you work in is pretty much different from that of most contributors

Worth noting, Bradley - and everyone else! - Stasya's zoo/furry sex fiction only makes up about 60% of his work.

-denny (curmudgeon)

"I'm full of good answers - sometimes it's the question that's wrong." Miss Behavin'

From: Leowulf
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: 09 Jan 2003 01:31:21 GMT

Denny Wheeler <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

On 8 Jan 2003 11:11:05 -0800, [email protected] (Bradley Stoke) wrote:

I've not read any of your fiction before, but it's clear that the niche of sex fiction you work in is pretty much different from that of most contributors

Worth noting, Bradley - and everyone else! - Stasya's zoo/furry sex fiction only makes up about 60% of his work.

-
-denny (curmudgeon)

"I'm full of good answers - sometimes it's the question that's wrong." Miss Behavin'

I suspected that was the case for STK9 - he's too skilfull in crafting his stories to be limited only to one kind. But his stories tend to be viewed as "different" and so the "different" stories stand out in his readers' minds. I understand his plight quite well. Consider ...

Leowulf has written 11 stories. Of these

5 stories involved nice, normal adults:

- The Date
- The Fox and the Chick
- Birthday Present
- Christmas Presents
- Winter Holiday

5 stories involved either dominated children or infantilized men:

- After Bedtime
- Four Vignettes
- Sleep Over
- Bath Time
Helping Pete be Gentle

And 1 story involved nonhumans:

- Khathrinia: Leaving Home

But those close to me think that all I'm interested in is the 5 second group of 5 stories. They point to the fact that two of the 5 "normal" stories are set in Bear Valley as confirmation of that fact. I am recognized for less than half of what I have produced. :( I am about more than women dominating their husbands and sons.

Two of my "normal" stories involved "wedded lust," but this doesn't mean that all I want is married people having sex. The fact that one of the other "normal" stories is set in a fantasy universe does not mean that all I like is Dungeons and Dragons, despite the fact that my nonhumans story is the beginning of a series set in a D&D universe.

Over half of Stephen King's stories are set in Maine. This does not mean that all he wants is a nightmare Maine of evil beings and dismembered corpses. Likewise, while I enjoy writing stories in the Bear Valley setting, I'm not all about being a dominated child, especially since I've never even played with such a concept during sex.

Just venting,

Leowulf

From: Leowulf
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: 8 Jan 2003 22:59:02 -0800

Leowulf <[email protected]> wrote in message

Leowulf has written 11 stories.

Actually I've got 12 stories out there.

5 stories involved nice, normal adults:

- The Date
- The Fox and the Chick
- Birthday Present
- Christmas Presents
- Winter Holiday

5 stories involved either dominated children or infantilized men:

- After Bedtime
- Four Vignettes
- Sleep Over
- Bath Time
- Helping Pete be Gentle

And 1 story involved nonhumans:

I've posted 2 stories with nonhumans, including

- Sentient Encounter

- Khathrinia: Leaving Home

I know, it's not really important, but I liked my story with the Sentient (self-aware computer program like those villians described in "Odyssey 5" on Showtime) <g>

Leo the Wulf

From: Stasya T. Canine
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 05:03:09 GMT

Thanks, Denny.

For those who are curious enough to visit my site, the site is organized in a way that lets people avoid the zoo/best stuff. In most cases I have either codes or summaries on the index pages to help people find or avoid things.

The link on the site to 'The Tails of Rabelaisia' no longer works. Use the furnation link in my sig. Those are all general audience furry works. A few have 'mature' themes but at worst they are 'young adult' in content.

Rabelaisian furrys are more traditional in their origins. They were originally created by magic wielders to help them during what are now called 'The Mage Wars'.

My past is deeply colored by its future. That is the nature of memories. Things forgotten, things remembered dimly.

Some things remembered with a painful clarity.

Past, present, future.
All blur together to create what is now. - Liaya Stevens -

From: Stasya T. Canine
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 04:50:47 GMT

Back to the original thread. :)

Bradley, thanks for your honesty and comments.

On Wed, 08 Jan 2003 11:11:05 -0800, Bradley Stoke wrote:

Stasya

I've not read any of your fiction before, but it's clear that the niche of sex fiction you work in is pretty much different from that of most contributors. A world of "furry" transforms? It sounds pretty horrible really. Like some kind of nightmare to frighten children, but this Doctor Moreau fantasy belongs to a larger world of "furry" sex fiction, which I've seen popping up here and there. I guess we have to accept the fantasy as wholly legitimate, like those for raping children, inserting enemas and eating faeces, which appeals to some but repulses others.

Pretty strong, but if that's your view, that's your view. :)

I've already pointed out that 'furry' is actually much more common than what is seen here in ASS*.

As for nightmares, etc ... Well, Native American shamans and others would be extremely surprised to hear themselves compared to the things you mention. So would the folks who have animal totems. As for 'popping up', the probable reason for that is that it has its own heirarchy and those who are involved don't often post here.

I can't say I really enjoyed the story, but it's clear that you are trying to achieve something more than just zoophile masturbation fantasy.

No problem with you not enjoying it. It's written with a specific audience in mind and if it isn't your type of story, I wouldn't expect you to find it worthwhile. I appreciate your taking the time to read it in spite of your lack of interest otherwise.

Furry masturbation fantasy, yes. Zoophile? No. Two distinct orientations. They have some things in common but not to the extent you seem to feel.

So, I can commend your ambition and intention. I also liked the real attempt to get inside the mindset of these transformed creatures.

Thank you. Making the mindset feel real is always something I strive for.

Your fiction isn't trumpeting the superiority of one race or species over another, but presents the rather odd view that people can have an animal within, perhaps rather like transsexuals say they feel they are really the other sex to the one they most physically resemble. It's not a phenomenon I've come across, but it wouldn't surprise me if it were true of many people.

See above. The view isn't that odd and is actually a fairly normal theme in some areas of science fiction. Andre Norton, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Anne McAffrey, Piers Anthony ... Some major writers have used it in some extremely popular works.

A more correct analogy would be transgendered folks.

Some reading about 'totemism' and the concept of having a guiding animal spirit might be a way to help understand what makes some people feel they have 'an animal within'. Perhaps one of the furry folks in the ng could explain 'furryness'. I know I can't do the idea the justice it deserves.

I don't see myself as a furry even though I readily admit that I feel that some aspects of my personality are heavily influenced by my lifelong association with canines. :)

I didn't like the fact there was so much we needed to know for the story to make any sense at all. And even after all the exposition, it still felt incomplete.

As I mentioned earlier, I didn't care for the way I had to use the introduction. I couldn't, at that time, see any other way to do it. Comments here have pointed me in a direction that will solve most of that problem.

Yes, it is incomplete. It is written to flow into the sex scene, which isn't done yet. I don't usually leave things hanging in this fashion but rl put me in a position where I felt I should get what I had done to Desdmona.

This is a very complex universe, and one that demands a great deal from a reader who might not wish to devote the time to understand the universe well.

<cough> ... It isn't written for a casual reader so your observation is spot on. :)

I was also a little uncertain about the dialogue. It didn't read very natural to me. But then, neither does the dialogue in "The Jungle Book".

All I can say here is that the dialog is natural for the people involved in the story. It is also reasonably natural for the people I generally spend my rl time with. This could be do to regional differences, a generational one or a lot of other reasons. About all I can do is work to keep it internally consistent, which is something I have to do anyway.

And I didn't warm to this rigid
rule-bound society at all, but then wolf packs are hierarchical institutions I guess. If we want a bit of freedom, perhaps we'd be better off if our human protagonists were more enthusiastic about being bonobos rather than wolves.

I can't figure out where you picked up this impression. The society is actually far more relaxed than ours is. There is routine cosmetic surgery that adds non-human aspects. There is a relaxed attitude about sexual matters.

Otoh, implied is one very rigid 'rule' that people are expected to live by. 'Personal responsibility'. One that concept is embraced fully, the resulting worldview can look very rigid to someone who doesn't embrace it or understand it.

The rigidity in this story so far is due to the setting. It deals with a group of people involved in a security matter. That sort of situation is naturally handled according to a rigid set of rules. But, once it's dealt with, there's obviously a lot of individual freedom available or the apparrent 'rule-bending' wouldn't be possible.

Let's see what the story is really about.

If we change the characters to humans, we have the following:

Two people are subjects involved in a special research project. That's the only thing that makes them 'special'. Otherwise they are pretty ordinary people.

The video and audio recording of their daily lives is a normal part of this project. This is also fairly ordinary and something we would expect to see when a project is this long term. It's routine documentation. The subjects of the study have learned to ignore the people doing all the recording so that all of their reactions are normal. This is no different than 'reality TV' that films real people. It's not unusual for the film crew to become 'part of the family' during the course of the filming.

The project is either controversial or one that has generated a lot of media interest. This too is normal for many types of research. Thus, in order to help the subjects get on with their lives, bodyguards are assigned to help buffer them from overenthusiastic people. This too is nothing out of the ordinary for people who find themselves public figures.

What it boils down to is that the story is about people who aren't really that unusual, who find themselves in what is actually a situation many people would find themselves able to visualize themselves in.

That's how the story should be read.

Once the 'rules' for making furry characters believable are met, the story telling rules for this 'niche' are exactly the same as they are for any other 'niche'.

My past is deeply colored by its future. That is the nature of memories. Things forgotten, things remembered dimly.

Some things remembered with a painful clarity.

Past, present, future.
All blur together to create what is now. - Liaya Stevens -

From: john
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: 8 Jan 2003 21:14:10 -0800

Grrrrr ...

Fantasy, like poems I guess, is a more difficult read. With consequently greater rewards, one hopes. Maybe one gets more adept with practice. I really enjoyed thinking though this one. It's universe is interesting. The questions that I posed while reading entertained me: how do these creatures look? do they stand on hind legs mainly? have hands instead of paws? could you have a canine sense of smell without a canine muzzle? and how would a muzzle work in sexy interactions with a human? did the sculpting somehow change their sense of crime and punishment or their idea of modesty? are they lower or higher status in the eyes of humans? That the answers aren't in the story, isn't a criticism. What we have is just a shard. Not enough to judge the vase's overall design. The good thing is that the shard was well enough wrought that the questions occurred. The puzzle piece looked like a puzzle piece. Not a bit of cardboard. Good.

The author's purpose (what do author's know) is to set other things up. That's done in quite an entertaining way. Perhaps the subconscious purpose was to entertain. Things happen. There's fear and suspense and sex and envy, acrimony, gosh a bunch of stuff. The second cool thing is that rather than "set up something" the author told a story. I don't think that's an easy thing to do in a long and complex work where the author thinks the main course is on the other side of the puzzle. Maybe it's lupine to keep one's focus on the task at hand.

It's hard to find improvements (except for the commas in the compound sentences like "..all the seats are taken, and we wind up ...") of significant things without a better understanding of the world they live in.

It's weird though. I have a tail, I look like a wolf, I think like a wolf a bit at least, and that doesn't seem to squick me. I do get upset because someone sees me copulate with my wife. Duh? The perverts who have disseminated sexy pics of me must be punished ... by copulating with me in public. Eh? I found those both a bit strange. But anything can happen in fantasy. I think though when logic is tampered with, the explanations will have to be extensive elsewhere in the greater work. For me. No doubt they are. s

You can tell I don't read a lot of fantasy. But wolves can be some scary creatures when you're all alone in the bush. Two paws up.

John

From: Stasya T. Canine
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 06:23:53 GMT

On Wed, 08 Jan 2003 21:14:10 -0800, john wrote:

Grrrrr ...

Fantasy, like poems I guess, is a more difficult read. With consequently greater rewards, one hopes. Maybe one gets more adept with practice. I really enjoyed thinking though this one.

Yes. I hope so too and have generally found that to be true. Definitely. Glad to hear it. :)

Thaks for your comments, John.

It's universe is interesting.

Shouldn't that be 'its'? Anyway, I've certainly enjoyed building it. I've been working in it since sometime in 1998. I also stole Starshadow Stealthwolf from the series and turned him into my longest used talker personna. I suspect that long term familiarty with the world shows up in places.

The questions that I posed while reading entertained me: how do these creatures look?

Depends on the species they 'transformed to. In this case, mostly human in form but with enhanced musculature, faces surgically reshaped to look wolflike, the outer ears reshaped and shifted to the tops of their heads. Toally fur covered. Tails that are attached and that have their muscles and nerves extensively mapped into the human brain areas that are closest in function to the corresponding areas in wolves. There was a lot of brain mapping done before the changes were made. The tails and ears are tied in well enough that many of their movements are unconscious and reflect the current mental state of the person.

do they stand on hind legs mainly?

Yes.

have hands instead of paws?

Yes but with cosmetic surgery done to provide fur on them and non-retractile claws.

could you have a canine sense of smell without a canine muzzle?

A toughie. The long muzzle would allow more receptors that could be tied into the normal olfactory links. I postulated that the technology is advanced enough that wolf receptors could be grown and carefully transplanted and used to replace the humans ones as well.

The long time to complete the transformation process is due to it being incremental and to allow each stage to be successfully completed/stabilized before the next is attempted. This allows for problems due to tissue rejection or poorly made nerve connections, etc.

and how would a muzzle work in sexy interactions with a human?

Difficult to lie about your interest/readiness or lack of it. <g>

With the muzzle and long tongue it would also make oral sex a lot easier. You could get into those otherwise unreachable nooks and crannies without a lot of contortions.

You didn't consider what you could do with a tail? No more looking for a feather or other fuzzy object to use during tickling or cuddling. How about using your tails instead of your hands during foreplay? Ummm ... Nice!

did the sculpting somehow change their sense of crime and punishment or their idea of modesty?

No. These people already see themselves as more animal that human in these situations. The full change has made it easier for them to openly express what they already feel is normal for them.

Living in a world that is 'scent rich' would probably make the person extremely direct. You wouldn't see a need to lie about something when your scent says you are lying. Normal humans might be uneasy or shun a transform because of this. It's an aspect I haven't explored in the context of society at large. Within the institute I've explored the results pretty thouroughly. One of the results there, on private grounds, is that sexual activity of any sort is indulged when and where the partners decide they want to do it - and everyone considers it 'normal and unremarkable'.

To steal from E.E 'Doc' Smith: "Scientists are as capable of dealing with the facts of life as easily as they do any other facts." <g>

are they lower or higher status in
the eyes of humans?

Good question. Legally they are humans. Because sculpting is so common, if they aren't recognized as 'transforms' they are treated just as casually as anyone with cosmetic changes only would be. However, since Kale and Kore are members of the second batch processed, they are extremely well known. Their decision to not work at the institute and live as members of society has a lot of 'test case' involved.

To the average person, they are just normal folks who took the next logical step. Mostly there's curiousity and a recognition of their courage.

I haven't taken the time to clarify the status of the speech capable wolves although I do imply that they are legally equal to humans.

That the answers aren't in the story, isn't a criticism. What we have is just a shard.

Yup. Eventually there will be more that fills in some of the blanks or duplicates what is already mentioned in the zoo/best part of the series.

Not enough to judge the vase's overall design. The good thing is that the shard was well enough wrought that the questions occurred. The puzzle piece looked like a puzzle piece. Not a bit of cardboard. Good.

Thanks you. You're the type of reader I most enjoy writing for. Someone who looks at more than the surface story.

The author's purpose (what do author's know) is to set other things up. That's done in quite an entertaining way. Perhaps the subconscious purpose was to entertain. Things happen. There's fear and suspense and sex and envy, acrimony, gosh a bunch of stuff. The second cool thing is that rather than "set up something" the author told a story. I don't think that's an easy thing to do in a long and complex work where the author thinks the main course is on the other side of the puzzle. Maybe it's lupine to keep one's focus on the task at hand.

Thank you, again. It's a heady feeling to see someone say they've seen what I wanted them to see - and enjoyed it while they did so.

Actually I was working from one of my strengths. I find it easy to write short, vivid scenes. For me, a 'long work' is anything over about 2000 words or so. :/

In this case maintaining focus is a canine trait.

It's hard to find improvements (except for the commas in the compound sentences like "..all the seats are taken, and we wind up ...") of significant things without a better understanding of the world they live in.

I knew someone else was on my 'pedant list'. <g>

One of the purposes of a comma is to indicate a short pause. That's how I used it. Kore is remembering and making a short pause in her speech that emphasizes how she feels about having to stand instead of sit. The pause before the 'and' subtly changes the emotional nuances and flow of the sentence. If I've added a comma in front of an 'and' it's because I wanted it there to shift the pacing of the flow and the emotional tone. :)

"Artistic License."

It's weird though. I have a tail, I look like a wolf, I think like a wolf a bit at least, and that doesn't seem to squick me.

You're a furry. It's normal for you. <g>

I do get upset because someone sees me copulate with my wife. Duh?

Oops ... The issue isn't that they've seen the sex. The real issue is that they violated an agreement they made. They filmed the sex AND distributed the tapes without permission. They've probably filmed Kore and Kale screwing each other as part of the normal documantation proceedures. But, those times they've done so with permission and the willing cooperation of the filmees.

The perverts
who have disseminated sexy pics of me must be punished ... by copulating with me in public. Eh? I found those both a bit strange.

Not perverts. We don't know all the circumstances that led up to the making and distribution of the tapes but money was probably part of the incentive.

The punishement is somewhat involved and it requires a pretty good understanding of what it's like to live as a public figure. Tom and Karen, because of their roles as monitors, have a pretty good idea of what's involved. They prefer to remain in the shadows as part of the scenery. Most of that is because they know they don't want to live in the spotlight 24/7. They are also close friends with Kore and Kale and have spent a lot of time listening to them vent or talk about how their lives have changed.

For Tom and Karen public notoriety is something they know they don't want to deal with. Kore and Kale know this. They also know that Tom and Karen are intensely excited by thoughts of having sex with them.

Thus, they are giving them a choice: Destroy their professional reputations and lose their current jobs - or satisfy their deepest desires in a way that forces tham into the situation they most fear. Plus, if it was money that led them to make the tapes, they'll be able to get all the money they want - after they are famous.

The removal from the 'high security list' then becomes an internal affair that nobody outside the institute will know about unless Tom and Karen decide to quit.

It's sometimes called 'poetic justice'. <vbg>

But anything
can happen in fantasy. I think though when logic is tampered with, the explanations will have to be extensive elsewhere in the greater work. For me. No doubt they are. s

I hope that explains the situation better.

You can tell I don't read a lot of fantasy. But wolves can be some scary creatures when you're all alone in the bush. Two paws up.

Again, thank you. :)

My past is deeply colored by its future. That is the nature of memories. Things forgotten, things remembered dimly.

Some things remembered with a painful clarity.

Past, present, future.
All blur together to create what is now. - Liaya Stevens -

From: Sagittaria
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: 10 Jan 2003 04:57:12 GMT

I too found it difficult to get through the introduction, so I skimmed most of it and went straight to the story. :) I don't think the full background is needed to understand the vignette. If you wanted it to be a stand-alone story, add a sentence near the beginning explaining how they've been transformed and what that means, and the rest of the story is fairly clear. Sure, I'm probably missing lots of details that I would understand better if I had read previous chapters, but that's always true of a multi-part work (or a complex fantasy universe).

As this was just an intro, I don't have a lot of comments. I think I would rather have read more of the sex! :)

Positive: I like the sweeping changes occurring or being implied, such as some of the transforms deciding not to wear clothes anymore. It's good for an author to think through all of the big and small effects a change like this will have on the world and the worldview of the characters in it. I also like the little touches that show their transformed state: "My lips twisted into an almost snarl," and "Kore's ears twitched in agreement."

Negative: The story seems choppy in places, hard to follow, and some of the dialogue struck me as trite. I can't find any examples as I go back through the story, so this doesn't make a very good suggestion for improvement; nevertheless, I can't find anything else that hasn't already been said. The feeling I got from it may have been a result of this story being just a setup for the sex stories yet to come.

As an avid sci-fi reader I found this universe intriguing and would like to tune in later for some of the sex scenes. Thanks for sharing it with us!

- - >Sagittaria< - -

The eastern moon looks ready for a wet kiss to make the tide rise again. Moonlight feels right ....

From: Stasya T. Canine
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 14:53:16 GMT

I need to get rid of that intrusive RL ...

Hello, Sagittaria. Thanks for your comments. :)

On Thu, 09 Jan 2003 20:57:12 -0800, Sagittaria wrote:

I too found it difficult to get through the introduction, so I skimmed most of it and went straight to the story. :)

As noted earlier, I'll be redoing the intro by removing it. :/

As this was just an intro, I don't have a lot of comments. I think I would rather have read more of the sex! :)

Yeah, well ... They'll get there. Eventually. <g>

Positive: I like the sweeping changes occurring or being implied, such as some of the transforms deciding not to wear clothes anymore. It's good for an author to think through all of the big and small effects a change like this will have on the world and the worldview of the characters in it. I also like the little touches that show their transformed state: "My lips twisted into an almost snarl," and "Kore's ears twitched in agreement."

Thanks for crediting me with some forethought. Some of that detail was put in place as a result of spending over a year using a furry wolf as an online persona on some talkers. I had to learn how to express myself in that form during live chat. Thinking in 'anthro-wolf' comes naturally at this point. :)

Negative: The story seems choppy in places, hard to follow, and some of the dialogue struck me as trite. I can't find any examples as I go back through the story, so this doesn't make a very good suggestion for improvement; nevertheless, I can't find anything else that hasn't already been said. The feeling I got from it may have been a result of this story being just a setup for the sex stories yet to come.

The choppy part might be due to my habit of burying a lot in the background or not spenfing a lot of time giving every detail. I like to put down the bare bones and let the reader fill in the rest. Sometimes I overdo it, especially when I'm writing in a series and for myself as the primary reader. (Yes, this was for the FT aniversary but I wasn't attempting to target any special audience.)

As an avid sci-fi reader I found this universe intriguing and would like to tune in later for some of the sex scenes. Thanks for sharing it with us!

You're welcome. It's been moved to the front burner and set to simmer ...

From: Tesseract
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: 10 Jan 2003 04:59:58 -0800

"Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...

Starshadow and Friends - The Nightwraiths By Stasya T. Canine [email protected]

I'm not a furry fan, so this was a nice introduction to the genre. You have converted me but if I have time this story, the complete version, would be a pleasant diversion.

You've created a believable world within the parameters you set and paint your characters well. I assume anything missing in their descrption would have been in the previous chapters.

One point that made the story hard to follow was that Tom and Karen were only mentioned by name near the end, and by any reference at all, as monitors, only when the group entered the lobby. I know you mentioned in the introduction that the monitors were almost inseparable from their subjects but I thought some mention of their existance in the story would have helped. It took a bit of thought to sort out all the players in the lobby even after I remembered that part of the intro.

You committed one of my grammar peeves. It is in dialog so you could say that is the character - if so then educate your character a bit more:-)

Kore laughed. "Nothing much. You and Tom work the Fish Tank at Mom's with Kale and I for four weeks, six days a week - for free. Anything you would have made gets turned over to Mom's Place." When Karen started to smile in relief, Kore set the hook. "You'll be in front of the cameras - with Kale and I."

Should be:

Kore laughed. "Nothing much. You and Tom work the Fish Tank at Mom's with Kale and {me} for four weeks, six days a week - for free. Anything you would have made gets turned over to Mom's Place." When Karen started to smile in relief, Kore set the hook. "You'll be in front of the cameras - with Kale and {me}."

Would you say:

Kore laughed. "Nothing much. You and Tom work the Fish Tank at Mom's with I for four weeks, six days a week - for free. Anything you would have made gets turned over to Mom's Place." When Karen started to smile in relief, Kore set the hook. "You'll be in front of the cameras - with I."

Tesseract

From: dennyw
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 18:51:47 -0800

On 10 Jan 2003 04:59:58 -0800, [email protected] (Tesseract) wrote:

You committed one of my grammar peeves. It is in dialog so you could say that is the character - if so then educate your character a bit more:-)

It's one of my peeves too. But - unfortunately - a LOT of people are convinced that one never uses 'me' in combination with another name. Too much previous use of 'George and me went to the fair' fex. In process of discouraging this misuse, a lot of teachers and parents mistakenly caused the rejection of 'The bus took George and me to the fair'. - I am NOT saying Stasya misuses 'me' or 'I' in his writing or speech - but his characters' doing so is merely a reflection of a sad reality.

From: Stasya T. Canine
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 08:26:04 GMT

On Sat, 11 Jan 2003 18:51:47 -0800, Denny Wheeler wrote:

On 10 Jan 2003 04:59:58 -0800, [email protected] (Tesseract) wrote:

You committed one of my grammar peeves. It is in dialog so you could say that is the character - if so then educate your character a bit more:-)

<snip example of using 'I' in an object-phrase where it should be 'me'>

It's one of my peeves too. But - unfortunately - a LOT of people are convinced that one never uses 'me' in combination with another name. Too much previous use of 'George and me went to the fair' fex. In process of discouraging this misuse, a lot of teachers and parents mistakenly caused the rejection of 'The bus took George and me to the fair'. - I am NOT saying Stasya misuses 'me' or 'I' in his writing or speech - but his characters' doing so is merely a reflection of a sad reality.

OK ...

I'm ONLY the author here ...

And you've managed to illustrate one of MY peeves wrt to pedants. You get so fixated on the rules and details you sometimes refuse to admit an author has the option of ignoring the 'rules' if doing so will let them say something the way they need to. :)

Let's take a look at that sentence:
"You'll be in front of the cameras - with Kale and I."

The sentence could have been 'said': "The two of you, Kale, and I - will be in front of the cameras." However, this doesn't place the emphasis where Kore and I wanted it. If I used the second version we'd be emphasizing that they'd be in front of the cameras. The real emphasis desired was a focus on who Tom and Karen would be in front of the cameras with.

Anyway, using the singular example, would it be 'I will' or 'me will'? If you want to sound silly, go ahead and use 'me will'.

What Kore has done here is shift the phrase 'Kale and I' to the end of the sentence after she has paused to give Tom and Karen just enough time to start to realize what kind of a mess they've managed to create for themselves - and who is in control of their immediate future. This changes the tone and also subtly tells them that she and Kale are well aware of the fact thet both of them have been sexually interested in Kore and Kale. Kore confirms this knowledge by explicitly mentioning it as part of 'helping' them make their decision.

Human nature being what it is, the average person who has spent years building their professional reputation is going to look for any option that lets them keep as much of it intact as they can when they make a mistake of this magnitude. Plus, as Kore hints, after their time in the tank they will be famous for being people with firsthand experience of what it's like to have sex with the transforms. They will be able to easily convert that 'fame' into cash when the four weeks are over. So what if they loose their current jobs? Play their cards right and they'll be making more than they were before the mistake. <g>

I'll have more to say on this 'justice' in a later post.

As for common usage being somehow 'wrong' or 'sad', those are your opinions, which I suspect are based on rules that are just a bit older than we are - and those opinions aren't shared by everyone. IRL, many people resort to pedantic precision as a form of insulting emphasis and the people on the receiving end of such sometimes form the opinion that the speaker is something of a rules bound, stuck up, nose in the air idiot who insists on the superiority of their opinion when the evidence indicates there's no real reason to be upset in the first place. :)

I'll allow the two of you your peeves. After all, I have my own. <vbg>

Thanks for giving me the chance, as a writer, to point out that the rules of English, while they are well worth following most of the time, should not be treated as if they are cast in stone and never to be ignored or bent if they get in the way of telling the story.

Besides, language evolves and the rules need to reflect what is - rather than what was.

Bottom line? The sentence will stay as it is. Changing it to the pedantic version shifts the overall tone from what I wanted.

And now I will attempt to return to answering the other, earlier posts in the thread.

BTW, Denny knows that I know the difference in usage. He's been my proof-reader for quite awhile. However, in this case, he never had a chance to see this story so we never got to have this discussion in private. :)

My past is deeply colored by its future. That is the nature of memories. Things forgotten, things remembered dimly.

Some things remembered with a painful clarity.

Past, present, future.
All blur together to create what is now. - Liaya Stevens -

From: Child of Sauternes
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 21:18:43 +1100

Stasya T Canine wrote:

On Sat, 11 Jan 2003 18:51:47 -0800, Denny Wheeler wrote:

On 10 Jan 2003 04:59:58 -0800, [email protected] (Tesseract) wrote:

You committed one of my grammar peeves. It is in dialog so you could say that is the character - if so then educate your character a bit more:-)

<snip example of using 'I' in an object-phrase where it should be 'me'>

It's one of my peeves too. But - unfortunately - a LOT of people are convinced that one never uses 'me' in combination with another name. Too much previous use of 'George and me went to the fair' fex. In process of discouraging this misuse, a lot of teachers and parents mistakenly caused the rejection of 'The bus took George and me to the fair'. - I am NOT saying Stasya misuses 'me' or 'I' in his writing or speech - but his characters' doing so is merely a reflection of a sad reality.

OK ...

I'm ONLY the author here ...

And you've managed to illustrate one of MY peeves wrt to pedants. You get so fixated on the rules and details you sometimes refuse to admit an author has the option of ignoring the 'rules' if doing so will let them say something the way they need to. :)

Let's take a look at that sentence:
"You'll be in front of the cameras - with Kale and I."

The sentence could have been 'said': "The two of you, Kale, and I - will be in front of the cameras." However, this doesn't place the emphasis where Kore and I wanted it. If I used the second version we'd be emphasizing that they'd be in front of the cameras. The real emphasis desired was a focus on who Tom and Karen would be in front of the cameras with.

Anyway, using the singular example, would it be 'I will' or 'me will'? If you want to sound silly, go ahead and use 'me will'.

What Kore has done here is shift the phrase 'Kale and I' to the end of the sentence after she has paused to give Tom and Karen just enough time to start to realize what kind of a mess they've managed to create for themselves - and who is in control of their immediate future. This changes the tone and also subtly tells them that she and Kale are well aware of the fact thet both of them have been sexually interested in Kore and Kale. Kore confirms this knowledge by explicitly mentioning it as part of 'helping' them make their decision.

Human nature being what it is, the average person who has spent years building their professional reputation is going to look for any option that lets them keep as much of it intact as they can when they make a mistake of this magnitude. Plus, as Kore hints, after their time in the tank they will be famous for being people with firsthand experience of what it's like to have sex with the transforms. They will be able to easily convert that 'fame' into cash when the four weeks are over. So what if they loose their current jobs? Play their cards right and they'll be making more than they were before the mistake. <g>

I'll have more to say on this 'justice' in a later post.

As for common usage being somehow 'wrong' or 'sad', those are your opinions, which I suspect are based on rules that are just a bit older than we are - and those opinions aren't shared by everyone. IRL, many people resort to pedantic precision as a form of insulting emphasis and the people on the receiving end of such sometimes form the opinion that the speaker is something of a rules bound, stuck up, nose in the air idiot who insists on the superiority of their opinion when the evidence indicates there's no real reason to be upset in the first place. :)

I'll allow the two of you your peeves. After all, I have my own. <vbg>

Thanks for giving me the chance, as a writer, to point out that the rules of English, while they are well worth following most of the time, should not be treated as if they are cast in stone and never to be ignored or bent if they get in the way of telling the story.

Besides, language evolves and the rules need to reflect what is - rather than what was.

Bottom line? The sentence will stay as it is. Changing it to the pedantic version shifts the overall tone from what I wanted.

And now I will attempt to return to answering the other, earlier posts in the thread.

BTW, Denny knows that I know the difference in usage. He's been my proof-reader for quite awhile. However, in this case, he never had a chance to see this story so we never got to have this discussion in private. :)

Excuse I for saying so, but that effable riposte leaves we native speakers of the universal English language speechless. It deserves to be sent to either of the ESL or transpondal newsgripes alt.english.yousage and alt.yousage.english.

- Child of Sauternes, another air idiot (but wrt to to to pedantry, me hasten to add that me am not a pedant - me have perfectly above-board relations with people of any age)

From: Kelli Halliburton
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 19:37:02 GMT

Stasya T. Canine wrote:

Bottom line? The sentence will stay as it is. Changing it to the pedantic version shifts the overall tone from what I wanted.

Even if the pedantic version merely changes it to, "You'll be in front of the cameras - with Kale and me," a change of one word? Okay. No big whoop.

From: oosh
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 20:41:04 +0000 (UTC)

"Stasya T. Canine" <[email protected]> wrote in news:wE9U9.22896 [email protected]:

Let's take a look at that sentence:
"You'll be in front of the cameras - with Kale and I."

To me, this sounds like faux pedantry. Using " ...and me" in the nominative is commonplace in colloquial English. "With Kale and I" is not colloquial. It's piss-elegant.

From: Stasya T. Canine
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 03:31:16 GMT

On Sun, 12 Jan 2003 12:41:04 -0800, oosh wrote:

"Stasya T. Canine" <[email protected]> wrote in news:wE9U9.22896 [email protected]:

Let's take a look at that sentence:
"You'll be in front of the cameras - with Kale and I."

To me, this sounds like faux pedantry. Using " ...and me" in the nominative is commonplace in colloquial English. "With Kale and I" is not colloquial. It's piss-elegant.

O.

Isn't that interesting? 'Piss-elegant' is a good summation of the reasons I didn't use 'Kale and me'.

From: dennyw
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 02:49:06 -0800

On Sun, 12 Jan 2003 20:41:04 +0000 (UTC), oosh <[email protected]> wrote:

"Stasya T. Canine" <[email protected]> wrote in news:wE9U9.22896 [email protected]:

Let's take a look at that sentence:
"You'll be in front of the cameras - with Kale and I."

To me, this sounds like faux pedantry. Using " ...and me" in the nominative is commonplace in colloquial English. "With Kale and I" is not colloquial. It's piss-elegant.

But - and I can only speak for the US, in particular the part of it I infest - that 'piss-elegant' type of use is endemic. My wife was taught - by parents mainly - to use " ...and I" in places where it's clearly correct to use " ...and me".

What I was trying to say in my post above - and evidently I missed my mark - was that whether the usage is correct or not is irrelevant in dialogue. What the author is trying to do is what matters. The classic case in point - at least of works by Americans - is Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain.

From: oosh
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 15:13:19 +0000 (UTC)

Denny Wheeler <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

What I was trying to say in my post above - and evidently I missed my mark - was that whether the usage is correct or not is irrelevant in dialogue. What the author is trying to do is what matters. The classic case in point - at least of works by Americans - is Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain.

Yes, it's not appropriate to quibble about grammar in quoted speech. Also, there are times when quite non-standard punctuation may be necessary to convey the rhythm (or lack thereof!) of casual discourse.

From: Stasya T. Canine
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 15:10:07 GMT

On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 04:59:58 -0800, Tesseract wrote:

Starshadow and Friends - The Nightwraiths By Stasya T. Canine [email protected]

I'm not a furry fan, so this was a nice introduction to the genre. You have converted me but if I have time this story, the complete version, would be a pleasant diversion.

Thanks for the comments and kudos, Tesseract. :)

I don't consider myself a furry, nor do I consider my work 'typical' of what's available. That said, there's a lot of good furry writing and artwork out there just on usenet.

When I'm done answering all the posts in this thread I'll take some time and point out the non zoo/best furry work in this series. I have a 'pure' general audience furry series also. It's in my sig. <end plug>

You've created a believable world within the parameters you set and paint your characters well. I assume anything missing in their descrption would have been in the previous chapters.

Some of them, yes. Thad, Ridgeback, Lisa, Saddle, Mark and Kate are all players in earlier parts. Kalelupus, Koretina, Tom and Karen are all new ones that will be developed further in this spin off.

One point that made the story hard to follow was that Tom and Karen were only mentioned by name near the end, and by any reference at all, as monitors, only when the group entered the lobby.

I did mention them as monitors when they started the walk to the institute. I did it this way because for Kale and Kore, they are 'part of the furniture' in their lives and they don't think of them more specifically unless something brings them into focus. My intent was to have them visible but not have anyone realize they would become significant to the story until events forced them to the front. Hopefully this 'trick' gives things a bit more of a 'real life' feeling.

I know you mentioned in
the introduction that the monitors were almost inseparable from their subjects but I thought some mention of their existance in the story would have helped. It took a bit of thought to sort out all the players in the lobby even after I remembered that part of the intro.

I did mention them. In that casual throwaway line as Kore and Kale went out the door.

'Kore and I exchanged grimaces as our bodyguards and monitors joined us for the walk to the institute.'

You committed one of my grammar peeves. It is in dialog so you could say that is the character - if so then educate your character a bit more:-)

This one's been answered and beat to death ... <g>

"Artistic License." :/

From: Souvie
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: 10 Jan 2003 08:23:38 -0800

On Mon, 6 Jan 2003 10:05:04 -0500, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote:

The following submission was intended for our anniversary. (Yay! One whole year and counting..) The author has generously set up the story for us as it is part of a longer series. In his own words: "It's the setup and intro to the rest of the story, which will be the actual sex scenes that take place at 'Mom's Place', in the 'Fish Tank', which is the special area where public sex shows are staged."

FishTank guidelines apply:

1) 2 positive comments

I like the ease with with everyone interacts with everyone else. I get the sense that they are old friends, and that just makes the story more believable to me.

I also like the descriptions in the story - of the institute, of the anthrowolves, of the talking wolves. There's not a lot of description, I know that, but I'm glad that the story doesn't get bogged down with it. Keeping it simple and straightforward works with the story.

2) 2 suggestions for improvement

My only problem with the story was remembering who was who and role they played in the story. With the explanation at the beginning I would have been totally lost. :)

- Souvie

From: Stasya T. Canine
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 15:20:25 GMT

On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:23:38 -0800, Souvie wrote:

Ahh ... My one fan checks in ... <g>

Thanks for the comments, Souvie.

I like the ease with with everyone interacts with everyone else. I get the sense that they are old friends, and that just makes the story more believable to me.

That was something I was striving for.

I also like the descriptions in the story - of the institute, of the anthrowolves, of the talking wolves. There's not a lot of description, I know that, but I'm glad that the story doesn't get bogged down with it. Keeping it simple and straightforward works with the story.

I'm a minimalist in my writing. I say what I feel has to be said - and stop. I'm not a fan of the 'Dick and Jane' school of writing/reading that needs everything described in nitpicking detail.

2) 2 suggestions for improvement

My only problem with the story was remembering who was who and role they played in the story. With the explanation at the beginning I would have been totally lost. :)

Did you mean to say without?

Anyway, the reader is supposed to have to work at keeping track. That's how I suck them into the story - by forcing them to get involved and then stay involved if they hope to follow what's going on. It's that 'failed teacher' backgound: "Class, pay attention! I'll be testing you on this later." <g>

From: Mat Twassel
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: 10 Jan 2003 14:59:58 -0800

"Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...

1) 2 positive comments

I really like the opening. "Once I smoothed her dress out I carefully fluffed her tail back to its normal appearance" is my favorite sentence in the story. It makes me smile every time I read it.

The story generates palpable suspense. Even though I'm not sure what's going on, there's the mood and feel of suspense, and I do want to know what's going to happen next and how things will play out.

2) 2 suggestions for improvement

After that first sentence the story doesn't give me many useful images of the characters or goings on. I can't "see" things as clearly as I want to. I felt like I was reading the story blind. For instance, this gathering - do they drive cars to it? Do I understand that this is the first chapter of the story? I get the feeling I've come in in the middle.

The characters' dialogue seems a bit stilted sometimes - I think because dialogue is over-used to explain things to the reader. And yet even with the explanation, I'm not sure I understand the FishTank at all. Maybe over-explain isn't the heart of the problem - maybe the main problem is I don't see the characters yet. Or I haven't really understood the tensions and connections. Anyway, my suggestion is to supplement the dialogue with narration to set the scene, to show the characters, to divulge the history and relationships ....

- Mat Twassel

reposted via Google because of AOL News problems

Mat's Erotic Calendar at http://calendar.atEros.com

From: Stasya T. Canine
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:52:17 GMT

On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 14:59:58 -0800, mat twassel wrote:

Thanks for taking the time to comment, Mat.

2) 2 suggestions for improvement

After that first sentence the story doesn't give me many useful images of the characters or goings on. I can't "see" things as clearly as I want to. I felt like I was reading the story blind. For instance, this gathering - do they drive cars to it? Do I understand that this is the first chapter of the story? I get the feeling I've come in in the middle.

A lot of the stuff is deliberately vague. Their shapes, for example. As I pointred out elsewhere, I believe, much of the opening situation is unknown from the pov of Kalelupus, the person telling the story. A lot of the surroundings are implied rather than being detailed. Where they live, other than away from the institute, is something I'll be developing later because I'm not sure myself. They haven't told me a lot of their background yet.

Ahh ... I mentioned twice in the story that they are walking to the meeting. The first time was: "Kore and I exchanged grimaces when our bodyguards and monitors joined us for the walk to the institute." The second time was a seperate paragraph consisting of the line "We resumed our interrupted walk."

This is the first chapter in a spin off. Yes, it started in the middle. A lot of that was because I started this for the FT aniversary. In the completed version there will most likely be earlier chapters or sections that build their background.

The characters' dialogue seems a bit stilted sometimes - I think because dialogue is over-used to explain things to the reader.

Actually, the dialogue wasn't intended to convey a lot of information. Most of the information is developed by the context and background. The surface story isn't the full story and I never meant it to be. There are many sub stories in this one. Some are continuations of the series. Others are stories about peripheral characters and still others are seting things up for later, when characters from the exsisting parts of the series interact with characters mentioned in this one.

And yet even with
the explanation, I'm not sure I understand the FishTank at all. Maybe over-explain isn't the heart of the problem - maybe the main problem is I don't see the characters yet. Or I haven't really understood the tensions and connections. Anyway, my suggestion is to supplement the dialogue with narration to set the scene, to show the characters, to divulge the history and relationships ....

This is my fault. The opening of the next section explains the Fish Tank.

Briefly, 'Mom's Place' is a whorehouse modeled after 'Lady Callahan's' but with differences that reflect the attitudes of this society and the characters. In the opening to 'Project Transform', Silky, one of the major characters, who worked there for many years and was planning on taking it over, bought it outright and gave it legitimacy by making it a part of the institute.

Since this section of the series is hopefully going to stay 'furry' with no zoo/best, I plan to find ways to work in most of the early history of Project Transform. The problem, of course is to do that with making it feel like I'm just explaining it to help people understand the story. I want the explanations to follow from the context. Won't be easy. :/

Fex: Working in the slowly forming tradition that the anthrowolves take two part first names and two part surnames is going to be a challenge. Added to that is the fact the surnames hint about their background of living in the shadows ... (Stealthwolf, Nightwraith)

From: Desdmona
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 20:13:48 -0500

Due to the recent propagating misfortune of those who use AOL, I'm reposting these comments from PleaseCain that were made earlier in the week.

Subject: Re: {ASSD} FT # 74 Starshadow and Friends by Stasya T. Canine From: [email protected] (PleaseCain) Date: 01/07/2003 4:01 PM Eastern Standard Time Message-id: <[email protected]>

I really like the way your married couple relates to one another, the way you mix the fantastic with the mundane: despite the way-out set up, they come across as a couple in love. Similarly, your details, like her trembling leg muscles. Very creative and well done.

I had a little bit of a problem with the characters' motivations, like what does the wronged couple gained by forcing the others into the Fish Tank, and why does he forgive their breach of trust so readily? However, I may have missed a few subtle nuances (of which I'm sure there are plenty, judging by the quality of your writing), because I was focused on keeping the characters sorted in my head. This last point won't be an issue in the longer work.

Cool fiction, thanks for letting us see it.

Cain

From: Stasya T. Canine
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 16:12:54 GMT

Thanks for the repost Desdmona. I never saw this one on my server.

Thank you, PleaseCain for taking the time to read and comment on my work. :)

On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:13:48 -0800, Desdmona wrote:

Due to the recent propagating misfortune of those who use AOL, I'm reposting these comments from PleaseCain that were made earlier in the week.

Subject: Re: {ASSD} FT # 74 Starshadow and Friends by Stasya T. Canine From: [email protected] (PleaseCain) Date: 01/07/2003 4:01 PM Eastern Standard Time Message-id: <[email protected]>

I really like the way your married couple relates to one another, the way you mix the fantastic with the mundane: despite the way-out set up, they come across as a couple in love. Similarly, your details, like her trembling leg muscles. Very creative and well done.

That feeling of mundaneness is something I usually try for when I'm doing furry or zoo/best. I guess it goes back to the reasons I started writing and posting. Very darn little of the work outside of the specialty ngs was trying to capture that pov, which is how I feel someone actually living the lifestyle would feel. It's always nice to know I've succeeded with at least one person other than myself. <g>

Tanks for the well done. The ripples in the leg fur were something I came up with when I was looking for an analogue reaction to how a human woman would look if she was supporting someone who was leaning on her. That pov is what is behind most of the 'creative details. I'm trying to actually see the world from inside the changed character. And, as I mentioned, since I used a furry persona in live chat, I already had some background that let me make the transition while writing this story. Glad it felt right for you.

I had a little bit of a problem with the characters' motivations, like what does the wronged couple gained by forcing the others into the Fish Tank, and why does he forgive their breach of trust so readily? However, I may have missed a few subtle nuances (of which I'm sure there are plenty, judging by the quality of your writing), because I was focused on keeping the characters sorted in my head. This last point won't be an issue in the longer work.

I explained the motivations in another post. Summarized they are based on a strong sense of personal accountability, a quirky sense of humor and poetic justice. That and a knowledge of human nature lets them ask the offenders to decide their own fate. Also, I have strong feelings about no good thing ever happening without the possibility of it having a price that is paid immediately or later - or the other way around. And, to be effective, the punishment needs to be able to deter the criminal from repeating the crime.

The crime, as Sam points out, must be paid for. The deep friendship between them demands that Tom and Karen be allowed to keep their basic dignity intact. Since Kale and Kore were aware that they were the ones most likely to be spied on, this was their way of tailoring the punishment to the people who did the spying. Had it been strangers, they would have chosen a much different punishment.

Reread it as many times as you like.

One of the things I try to do is make my work complex enough that it changes depending on how the reader feels and how many times they've read it when they read it again. I also like to get people to go 'Oh, how did I miss that when I read it? It's so obvious now ...' <vbg>

Cool fiction, thanks for letting us see it.

You're welcome.

From: Stasya T. Canine
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 16:01:57 GMT

On Mon, 06 Jan 2003 07:05:04 -0800, Desdmona wrote:

The Fish Tank
Starshadow and Friends - The Nightwraiths by Stasya T. Canine - -

A heartfelt 'Thank you!' to everyone who took the time to read and comment.

This is a sort of generic response and then I'll be responding to all of the individual posts.

OK ...

I imagine some of you figured out that I'm a real taskmaster when it comes to my work. I don't dumb down my work and I expect the readers to pay attention when they read it. <g>

Yes, this one does sort of start in the middle, in the sense that it's a spin off from an existing series that has put down massive amounts of background. I confess that I didn't care for the introduction either but I knew that there would be a lot of people unwilling to read some of the other work in this world because it contains zoosexuality and bestiality.

The comments made here were the clues I needed to get rid of that clunky intro and replace it with something a bit better. The version I eventually post will reflect that change.

There was a lot of focus on the dialog. Fair enough. I had reasons for making it choppy and simple. People in stressful situations, as a rule, don't talk in long involved sentences. The structure was one of the methods I was using to help build the suspence and convey the idea that the characters were operating under stress.

Yes, some of it was trite. On the other hand, some people really do talk that way. The dialog is realistic and representative of how some people talk.

When I write, I try to write the story as a gestalt. There is a surface story consisting of the words, which often looks fairly simple. At the same time, I try to use the word choices, the order they are in and the punctuation to enhance the story and tell much of the emotional tone of the story.

Oh, yes ... Every word used, every phrase, every punctuation mark, even what is not said - is part of the story. As some folks learned, if you skim one of my stories you risk missing important details. <g>

For those of you who want to know about 'furrys', both human and fictional, take a look at the following newsgroups:

fur.answers has most of the important FAQs and is a good place to start alt.fan.furry and alt.lifestyle.furry these are the two most popular groups where discussions take place. Lurk a bit, get the feel for the places and go from there.

There is a fur.* hierarchy of furry ngs covering most interests, including stories and artwork. A search for ngs with 'furry' in their names will turn up the other groups.

There are many furry web servers. One of the largest and best known is the one where the 'Tails of Rabelaisia' live: www.FurNation.com

Now ...

On to the individual responses. :)

From: Altan
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 15:45:30 GMT

On Mon, 6 Jan 2003 10:05:04 -0500, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi Stasya,

I know I'm late this week - I noticed you have already replied to the other comments (which I haven't read yet). I wanted to read your story a second time before commenting, and never found time for that. However, there is one comment that has been buzzing around my head since I read your story on Monday, and I want to write it down now.

When I started reading your story, it was with great reluctance because of the "furry" story code. I thought I would not be interested in that part at best, maybe even squicked.

However, by the time I came to the end of your story, I felt actually disappointed that there had not been an actual sex scene. Your story built up anticipation so well that I was looking forward to it, rather than being hesitant about it.

Thanks,
A.

http://www.asstr.org/~altan/

From: Stasya T. Canine
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 15:49:13 GMT

On Sun, 12 Jan 2003 07:45:30 -0800, Altan wrote:

I know I'm late this week - I noticed you have already replied to the other comments (which I haven't read yet).

No problem from my pov. I'm still replying ...

When I started reading your story, it was with great reluctance because of the "furry" story code. I thought I would not be interested in that part at best, maybe even squicked.

Thanks for reading it and commenting. The extra effort involved is something I appreciate.

However, by the time I came to the end of your story, I felt actually disappointed that there had not been an actual sex scene. Your story built up anticipation so well that I was looking forward to it, rather than being hesitant about it.

Well, now ... That 'disappoinment' a bonus I try for but never count on. To have the same person admit they went in unsure if they'd like the story makes the admission something I add to my little store of treasured comments.

Thanks. I'll try to get the rest of it finished 'real soon now'. :/

From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Starshadow and Friends, by Stasya T. Canine
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:14:54 -0600

On Mon, 6 Jan 2003 10:05:04 -0500, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote:

I'm sorry that I didn't have time to comment right away. I had nothing quick to add, and no time to do more than a quick read, liking it. I still don't have much to add, but I think that the background is quite interesting.

"What if?"

In this story, I continue to explore some of the individual and social implications that arise when 'surgical furrys' are possible.

The story that follows is one chapter in the series/serial 'Starshadow and Friends'. Because of that heritage it depends heavily on the works that are already finished. In the following introduction, I'll try to give you the missing essentials that will help you during your reading of this chapter.

In this world, 'cosmetic biosculpting' is a common practice. Essentially it is a cosmetic changing of a person's body by adding non-human parts. An unstated number of years before this story, 'therapeutic sculpting' had started to be used as part of the treatment programs that involved people who were more comfortable when they thought of themselves as an animal in human form. In therapeutic sculpting the parts are not only added, they are integrated into the person's nervous system.

I think that the surgical/medical sculpting works as well as magical, presuming that the technology achieves a good conversion. The method doesn't matter, same as with any science fiction when the science can do nearly magical things.

As such I wouldn't think about it as being so much "furry" even though it achieves that as a more general science fiction theme. Once you can safely transform people into other body types, I think that after a while, transformed people would be simply "people", just as aliens would eventually be accepted as people, different but still just folks.

The story reflects on that in part, while showing an outside world where the transformed people are still unusual. I think there is a lot of room for interesting tales with this background.

Jeff

Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/

There is nothing more important than petting the cat.

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