Comments on Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe.
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From: Bradley Stoke
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 25 Mar 2002 05:40:40 -0800
Nicholas
Phew!
Well! I really enjoyed this.
And as is required, why did I enjoy it?
Well, I can think of more than two good reasons, so, at the risk of
repeating what someone else might say, I’ll exceed my quota and
give a few:
1. I liked the college setting. It was very real. Very much like my
own recollections. Parties, places, beer and semesters. And, of
course, that strange fluidity of sexual relationships. It's great to
read a story not set in some middle-aged, middle-class Middle America.
2. I liked the sex. Normally, I don't. Nomally, the sexual
descriptions in the stuff I read on ASSM are the bits I skip over.
Often rather less erotic than the events leading up to them. But here
they are. Expertly written. And deliciously erotic. I love the
description of the cold fingers and the warm vagina. Like getting into
a warm bath with a cold hand-rail.
3. I love the way that Nicholas satirises all the stuff about rebirth,
astrology and all that while still resisting the temptation to make a
meal of it.
4. I really like the way that relationships and sex and love and
emotion happens in the story as it does in real life. Not necessarily
with the right people at the right time and in the right way.
5. And I love the end. It evolved out of the story's logic. Happens at
the right time. And by both resolving and not resolving the story says
exactly what it ought to be.
And as far as negatives are concerned? Well, I've had problems in
finding negative criticisms before. I tend to agree with celia batau.
Sometimes striving for perfection misses the point altogether. So,
I'll skip on the criticism. And anyway I've already exhausted my
quota.
Bradley Stoke
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 25 Mar 2002 18:13:56 GMT
I liked the stuff about the Fourth Hand but at the same time it seemed sort of
long and meandering and was a little irritating at the time, though
afterwards, coming back to it, it seemed just right.
I liked the opening and how quickly, succinctly we hear about Elle and fucking,
about her fear of infidelity, and then this stays in the background in a way
and in another way it doesn't: we have to wonder what's going on when she keeps
saying, "You should." And the end, of course. But I can't quite get those two
things together - her supposed fear of infidelity and her urging her partner to
have another partner. Neat. Whether it belongs in the story or not, I would
like to hear Ellie's words about being afraid of infidelity.
So is that two comments or four ... or none?
- Mat
From: dennyw
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:33:35 -0800
On 25 Mar 2002 06:37:05 GMT, [email protected] (Desdmona22) held
forth, saying:
Somewhere (Not Here).
A Fish Tank submission by Nicholas Urf�.
a couple of 'proofreader' comments sent by email; I'm too brain-dead
to absorb and comment upon the story itself.
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: Conjugate
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:20:49 -0500
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 things to improve
3) Try not to repeat
Marvelous characterization, nice pace, nice scene-setting. There are a
couple of places where I would have snipped the description a bit shorter.
Mat has already mentioned the "Fourth Arm" scene, so I won't; I'll mention
instead the scene with Louise, which somehow seemed to me to go on a bit
long. Maybe not. It's hard for me to judge. What to cut? Perhaps the
fact that the beer was cheap in green glass bottles? No, that sort of
description lends authenticity. Also, if it had been me writing it, I would
have had the viewpoint character get into a relationship with a woman who
wouldn't be quite so, well, air-headed. Still, that's just me, and perhaps
it's my desire to be in a permanent, or at least lasting, relationship.
Overall, a nice piece; I like it much.
Conjugate
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:23:49 -0600
First quick thing to improve: I had to look up Richard Thomas. I'm
guessing that means the "John-Boy" on the Walton's kid, at some age
appropriate for college, probably blond haired rather than brownish.
I know that the roommate doesn't play a big role, but I think we need
to know more about him. If nothing else, how and why Nick and the
roommate get along (or not).
Conversely, and it probably says more about my viewing habits, Kyle
Maclachlan was no trouble at all to imagine, thinking Twin Peaks
viewpoint. I'm not sure about looking "creepy," unless you just
assume the right sort of odd stare which disturbs you, finding him
looking at you whenever you turn your eyes on him.
Or maybe that is another story. Anyway, the roommate thing bugs me
because it is significant, in terms of limiting liaison locations and
a key in forcing the pattern of the coupling. Neither he nor his
lover say much, but the ending scene seems pretty poignant to me.
Oh, I should give my imagined descriptions from the names: The
roommate is a blond tall innocent looking farm-boy sort, but something
about it makes you think it is an act. The lover, though, he is also
tall and nicely built, with dark hair and piercing eyes. Blue eyes, I
think, but you can imagine it that way and it works well. Both have
longer but not really long hair, not crew cut college boy types.
I like the posted title. That is a suggestion, only because you need
to read the entire story to get it in full. It doesn't lead the
ending, but maybe it explains it? It is hard to make a title for a
story like this one, I think.
I liked the whole college life scene, seemingly reminscent of my own.
Except that maybe I'd be more like Peter than Nick, but I do find it
interesting to read about the guy who just didn't quite "get it" Not
that the thing which Ellie shared with Peter was necessarily any more
real than the place Nick hoped to get to, but at least they felt
they'd found it and were happy with it.
Was Nick lost, not quite with Ellie nor with Kimber? Maybe Nick
didn't find his way to 'somewhere' but it was nice to ride along with
him as he looked. It makes me wonder what happens next, but I think
that is past the scope of the story. The wondering makes me think.
I liked the sexy dancing bit. I think it describes the whole falling
into instant lust or love or whatever thing which sometimes happens.
The reluctance to let it happen shows nicely.
On a minor note, the fourth arm isn't a problem if you don't mind the
tingly achy feeling of having it slept on. Maybe I'm weird, but it
just never bothered me, and I've slept in single beds and cots like
that. I did like the whole thinking about it process, trying to find
the most comfortable arrangement. But sometimes a bit of discomfort
is the best you can arrange.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 26 Mar 2002 17:59:59 GMT
Jeff writes:
On a minor note, the fourth arm isn't a problem if you don't mind the
tingly achy feeling of having it slept on. Maybe I'm weird, but it
just never bothered me, and I've slept in single beds and cots like
that. I did like the whole thinking about it process, trying to find
the most comfortable arrangement. But sometimes a bit of discomfort
is the best you can arrange.
I find that it isn't a problem until you start thinking about it. If I'm
leaning in, which I usually am, on my left side, which I usually am, which
means I'm tilted at about a 45 degree angle, my left arm seems to do okay
simply left on its own behind me.
- Mat
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 18:26:32 -0600
On a minor note, the fourth arm isn't a problem if you don't mind the
tingly achy feeling of having it slept on. Maybe I'm weird, but it
just never bothered me, and I've slept in single beds and cots like
that. I did like the whole thinking about it process, trying to find
the most comfortable arrangement. But sometimes a bit of discomfort
is the best you can arrange.
I find that it isn't a problem until you start thinking about it. If I'm
leaning in, which I usually am, on my left side, which I usually am, which
means I'm tilted at about a 45 degree angle, my left arm seems to do okay
simply left on its own behind me.
I think the story did a fine job of talking about the whole
situation. It is something which I'd guess most people learn once
they share a bed with someone, but it is easy to forget the
inconvenient discoveries after a bit of practice makes them familiar.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: PleaseCain
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 26 Mar 2002 22:32:41 GMT
Wow. Wonderful writing, and story. The characters, the details, the opening,
all richly drawn. I like the voice, and the vocabulary, that fits neatly
inside it. The piece exudes energy and sadness, and just feels genuine.
I'm afraid I don't have much to offer by way of improvement. Rake through it a
few times with the red, ship it to the right publisher, and you've got a sale.
Not a helpful critique, sorry; I think I'm pissy from last week. This is my
favorite of yours I've read, and now I'm hooked to go read the others. I truly
enjoyed it. Please let me know what happens to this one. Thanks.
Cain
From: celia batau
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:32:08 -0800
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 things to improve
3) Try not to repeat
pozzie one: the story had a really old feel to it. like forties old. maybe
it was just yesterday we were pushing through Dostoevsky at school before
class and the chiming bell went off. maybe it was that was in our mind when
we read about Albert Hall. also the gossamer connections between the
characters balanced with the undercurrents pushing them apart added to that
sense of simple concreteness. but then reading about pornos and computers
made us change the time, but we didn't mind. :)
pozzie two: maybe we're reading too much into it, but we think Nick was that
fourth arm. not able to find a place where he could be comfortable.
neggie one: it was like a condensed version of a longer story. the way the
characters were introduced and the way settings changed made us think we had
accidently skipped over something. we liked how it made the characters seem
stronger, but our dissy head had a difficult time knowing we weren't missing
pieces of the story.
neggie two: the beginning of the sex between Nick and Kimber. Nick didn't
seem to be the kind of person to have sex in public (middle of the party),
and even though he was drunk, there wasn't a fuzziness to miss a change in
location. adding the next morning with her hand on the wood floor, and it
didn't seem consistent.
thanks for sharing it. :)
-cb
Somewhere (Not Here).
A Fish Tank submission by Nicholas Urf�.
From: DrSpin
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 26 Mar 2002 22:42:29 -0800
Somewhere (Not Here).
A Fish Tank submission by Nicholas Urf�.
*****************************************************
My Fish Tank submission, attached and embedded. A note to all and
sundry: A) this is still rather first draft-y (appropriate, of course);
there's already a dozen things I want to tweak, and I'm eager to hear
more, and B) the working title was "Pretty Much," but that's really for
another piece which I'd thought this one was going to be but isn't; I
like "Somewhere (Not Here)" better, but it still isn't perfect maybe,
and I'm stealing it from a song by Alpha, not that there's anything
wrong with that. So any suggested titles are also of interest.
About titles. Some writers here go through toothache-like agony over
choosing titles. I won't name names but I know who you are. Urfe is
not one of them, I also know. I love titles. They can be tiny
Flashstories all on their own.
There are many views. The cheerfully manipulative Michael Dalton, for
example, advises his titles like "Amber: The Making Of A Fuck Toy"
gather squillions of hits, and he's not King of the Downloads for
nothing. But I do think random readers are guided by titles, and
"Somewhere (Not Here)", although appropriate, says nothing in that
respect.
But it's author's choice.
About "Somewhere (Not Here)":
I love Urfe's style, not least because it's different. He's the only
one like him. You get originality, and it even feels like originality.
I have some talent at mimicking other writing styles, but no way
could I do Urfe.
It's also hard work. Words and images flash past your eyes at
lightning speed, and he's jumping and jerking all over the place.
Hang on, you say, reading it. What? Who? I'll just have to go backwards
for a second and work that out.
I'm not looking forward to this. I've been putting it off. But here goes.
- Great intro paragraph. Terrific early realistic dialogue, staccato-style.
- I had no problem with the Fourth Arm Thing. Felt right to me.
- What's a Mucha girl? It's a US shampoo brand, I guess. The audience is
global, remember.
I dreamed of that hair: of lying back in
my own narrow bed (I hadn't yet seen hers; imagine the young Richard
Thomas out for the nonce, on an assignation) with her astride my hips,
impaled, slowly bucking up and down and back and forth all at once, her
arms rising as her breasts stretch and climb a little up her chest as
her belly curls and tautens as her hands shovel up that hair, that
hair, up and back, a Mucha girl, a shampoo ad, her neck suddenly
slender and fragile under its glowering weight.
- That's very nearly a 100-word sentence, Nick. I ought to object on
principle alone. But let it be, let it be.
I blew out a breath full of half-voiced syllables, nonsense sounds.
Homina, homina, affazza frazzlefass.
- Geeze, that's good. I'd steal it, but it would keep looking like
Urfe no matter how I disguised it.
OK. I'm finished, Nick. Nothing to pick at, not even any real suggestions
to offer. It's an excellent story verging on brilliant.
If it was my story I'd want to make more of Louise and the general
community feeling of disappointment that he won't really try with
her. I'd be putting Louise up more, standing around like a stale
bottle of piss (as they say hereabouts), making everybody feel
uncomfortable, especially herself. But that's me. I do those depressing
things.
Now, back to the title. Nope. Nothing is emerging. Sorry.
- What's a Mucha girl? It's a US shampoo brand, I guess. The audience is
global, remember.
It came to me later. The art nouveau guy. Sheilas with wild hair.
DrSpin
No, I think they were referring to the character from Shakespeare's play
named after him.
You know.
Mucha Do About Nothing is the title.
Conjugate
"Puns! Never apologize, never explain!" - Dogbert
From: Vinnie Tesla
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 20:10:51 GMT
Uncomfortably familiar.
The dazed passivity of the protagonist, too caught up in new (or
new-ish) powerful emotions and complicated situations and unfamiliar
arrangements to even imagine seizing the rudder rings true from early
collegate experiences of my own. Including the new age stuff. Including
the idiosyncratic definitions of infidelity. Heck, including one of the
names. Eep.
Even on a second read-through, some of the unannounced scene-changes
threw me. A scattering of ***s or hr's would help, if that's not a
deliberate effect.
The line "Did you tell Howie to tell her ...?" made me laugh.
Are they really supposed to be fucking on the dancefloor during the
party? It does read that way, but it doesn't seem right at all.
The incomplete sentences are perhaps.
-Vinnie [email protected]
http://www.asstr.org/~vinnie_tesla/
He polishes birds of the Vista
From: PleaseCain
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 30 Mar 2002 01:50:04 GMT
Vinnie commented that he would have liked more delineation between scenes. I
don't know, I thought the transitions were for the most part ingenious, so that
before I reread the story, I scrolled through to see how they were done. True,
some of the back-and-forth feels murky, but the effect seems to underscore the
protagonist's muddled situation: for all his self-consciousness, he isn't in
control of many of his variables.
I use the three-dots all the time, but apart from affording the eye some
welcome white space on the page, it usually strikes me as an artless device.
Instead of a skillful blending of scenes into a seamless fabric of story, the
double-return usually feels like squealing to a halt at a red light, and then
you wait your thirty seconds and proceed calmly forward. Some can't or
shouldn't be avoided, but others ...
It's something I have been thinking about lately. Probably just a matter of
taste. (Watch, my next story will be an orgy of asterisks, don't you know.)
Cain
From: Vinnie Tesla
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 02:29:08 GMT
I'm actually feeling particularly warm & fuzzy about hr's this week, but
that's essentially becuse they gave me an excuse to use font-variant:
small-caps generously in the HTML copy of Victim/Victorian.
No worse than cross-cutting in film, anyway, I should think.
And I think we're more in agreement than you suggest. I said that visual
delimiters might be desirable if the confusion wasn't deliberate.
On 30 Mar 2002 01:50:04 GMT, quoth the [email protected] (PleaseCain):
Vinnie commented that he would have liked more delineation between scenes. I
don't know, I thought the transitions were for the most part ingenious, so that
before I reread the story, I scrolled through to see how they were done. True,
some of the back-and-forth feels murky, but the effect seems to underscore the
protagonist's muddled situation: for all his self-consciousness, he isn't in
control of many of his variables.
I use the three-dots all the time, but apart from affording the eye some
welcome white space on the page, it usually strikes me as an artless device.
Instead of a skillful blending of scenes into a seamless fabric of story, the
double-return usually feels like squealing to a halt at a red light, and then
you wait your thirty seconds and proceed calmly forward. Some can't or
shouldn't be avoided, but others ...
It's something I have been thinking about lately. Probably just a matter of
taste. (Watch, my next story will be an orgy of asterisks, don't you know.)
Cain
-Vinnie [email protected]
http://www.asstr.org/~vinnie_tesla/
He polishes birds of the Vista
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 30 Mar 2002 03:16:15 GMT
Please Cain writes:
the
protagonist's muddled situation
I've been thinking about this, or something close to this. How long after the
story (after Nick falls asleep on the couch) is the story being told? Does it
matter at all? To a degree it seems that the narrator is still a little
muddled. These transitions are some of the main things that lead me to that
impression.
- Mat
From: oosh
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 05:10:24 GMT
[email protected] (Vinnie Tesla) wrote in news:3ca2240a.22289610
@news.speakeasy.net:
Even on a second read-through, some of the unannounced scene-changes
threw me. A scattering of ***s or hr's would help, if that's not a
deliberate effect.
I have to confess that this really wasn't a problem for me. Perhaps you can
give an example.
O.
From: oosh
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:27:04 GMT
Giving a writer of Nicholas's calibre a list of "things to improve"
suggests impudence, or at least temerity. Most of the preceding comments
have been extremely positive, and I agree with them. I read the story
twice, once for substance (relishing the style) and once for style
(relishing the substance). What I'd prefer to offer is one or two things
to think about - things I might have done differently. Perhaps I'd not
have done them so well.
First, on style - Very many statements and exclamations are interrupted
early on by short touches of attribution or description, for example
"I knew it," he said, "a Gemini".
There were about three of these (my counting isn't my strong point, so
take the numbers as approximate but not wildly), and another seven
where the intervening text was longer. In addition, there were five
cases where the first words of the quotation were repeated, e.g.
"Are you?" [stuff]. "Are you OK?"
Finally, there were a lot of quotations that began '"What?" X said.'
In many instances, these were very nicely done - they were absolutely
fine. I just wonder whether it happens a shade too often. It's a very
expressive device, and it's always used very nicely. I'm not going to
say that any one instance isn't defensible. Perhaps Nicholas should
just consider, though, if he's edging toward the fine line between
style and mannerism. I'm certainly not accusing him of doing so, but
perhaps it's a point to watch.
Second, on substance - As it stands, the piece begins with a gentle
crescendo - nothing violent here - and ends with a gentle diminuendo.
That's nice. But I find myself wondering about those last four
paragraphs. To me, the one beginning "Oh, we fucked again, Ellie and me"
would make a very good ending, and perhaps it would tie in more closely
with the title - which I think is a very good principle to follow. I
wondered if the role of Richard Thomas was to be a foil: the Nick of the
story seems almost to envy him (perhaps without justification) his
apparently untroubled love-life. I don't know - I may have got the wrong
end of the stick here. But I felt that putting Richard at the end gave
him a prominence that I couldn't satisfactorily explain. I'm not saying
that Nicholas should have omitted Richard: I'm merely wondering out loud
whether perhaps the last two paragraphs should be moved further up. It
would also improve the symmetry, by having Nick and Ellie making it (but
not quite) as the first and last scenes of the piece.
On to the points to praise - much easier to find, and others have found
many of them. Fortunately, there are so many good things about
Nicholas's writing that there are still a few left for me, and I'm sure
I won't exhaust them.
First, on style: in the flow of his beautifully rhythmic prose, there
is so much brilliant metaphor and simile, and so many plain but
evocative details, that his writing seems to fizz with brilliance.
Sometimes, when reading less able prose, I feel that simile almost
never works. With Nicholas, it almost never fails: "like a broken wing
and tuck it under my pillow, pressing my pillow to my ear as if I were
listening to it." - two excellent examples coming one upon the other.
Despite the richness of its descriptive power, there's nothing overdone
about Nicholas's writing. All we see of Richard is the mole on his
cheek, but the way Nicholas puts it there, we see the whole person.
Sometimes he just chooses a magical word - "unearthly long fingers" -
and again we see more than we expected. Nicholas knows how to get our
imagination to fill in the blanks, and that is perhaps the secret of
how to make something look more real than any amount of exhaustive
detail can do. The start-of-term party is described as a
"welcome-the-fuck-back" party. This is not only amusing: it tells us
what the party was like, how the people behaved, what they felt about
it. And again: when Nick finds Peter in Ellie's bed, the whole scene is
presented by the simple phrase " ...looked up at me from her pillow".
This kind of economy is what makes Nicholas's writing so fluid, so
gripping, so immensely readable. It's not just that Nicholas's
observation is so good: he uses it with economy and power, and he makes
the picture come alive.
Moving toward the substance, Nicholas's use of dialogue is good always,
but in the sex scenes it is superb: he conveys a very great deal by the
way his characters try to articulate, but fail: far more suggestive of
the intensity of what's going on than screams or grunts or panting. And
sometimes he gets his effect just by general description - I
particularly admired the paragraph that begins "If either of us came I
don't actually remember it."
Finally, I liked the very delicate way that he suggests the romantic
yearning of youth - "Oh, Ellie!" - and yet the uncertainty, the second
thoughts, and the falsity and pretence into which our hopes and desires
can sometimes lead us, often when we're young, and sometimes when we're
not so young.
O.
From: DrSpin
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 27 Mar 2002 20:22:35 -0800
Perhaps Nicholas should
just consider, though, if he's edging toward the fine line between
style and mannerism. I'm certainly not accusing him of doing so, but
perhaps it's a point to watch.
Hah! There's something I've been seeking for a long time - a
Nicholas Urfe definition: He walks the fine line between style and
mannerism.
Brilliant, oosh. I'd be surprised if Urfe doesn't fancy it himself.
Perhaps Nicholas should
just consider, though, if he's edging toward the fine line between
style and mannerism. I'm certainly not accusing him of doing so, but
perhaps it's a point to watch.
Hah! There's something I've been seeking for a long time - a
Nicholas Urfe definition: He walks the fine line between style and
mannerism.
Brilliant, oosh. I'd be surprised if Urfe doesn't fancy it himself.
Yes, he has that certain je ne sais creme ale.
I have no positives nor improvements ot already suggested. (Actually I have no
improvements at all - I've confined myself to taking notes.) I did wonder if
celia hadn't nailed that image of Nick as fourth arm.
In this session of the FT, I'm a fourth arm.
Gary Jordan
"Old submariners never die. It's not within their scope."
I have never done that before.
I didn't do it this time.
And I'll never do it again.
(And this time, I mean it!)
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 28 Mar 2002 15:17:34 GMT
between
style and mannerism. I'm certainly not accusing him of doing so, but
perhaps it's a point to watch.
Hah! There's something I've been seeking for a long time - a
Nicholas Urfe definition: He walks the fine line between style and
mannerism.
Is mannerism something to watch out for? What are some examples of bad
mannerism?
- Mat
From: DrSpin
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 29 Mar 2002 09:17:44 -0800
between
style and mannerism. I'm certainly not accusing him of doing so, but
perhaps it's a point to watch.
Hah! There's something I've been seeking for a long time - a
Nicholas Urfe definition: He walks the fine line between style and
mannerism.
Is mannerism something to watch out for? What are some examples of bad
mannerism?
Bad mannerism? I don't know, but it's not the point. Mannerism was a style
of art which rebelled, broke away from what was considered proper and solid.
This is not my strong suit, by any means. 16th century Italian, I think.
There was a bunch of them. Michaelangelo was one.
From: oosh
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 05:14:04 GMT
[email protected] (mat twassel) wrote in news:20020328101734.20847.00000528
@mb-mm.aol.com:
Is mannerism something to watch out for?
As a reader, not at all! As a writer, perhaps. As a critic, yes.
What are some examples of bad mannerism?
Anything that's effective, but done rather often, may become a mannerism:
it's only bad when it's done so often that it distracts, so that its
effectiveness is diminished. If you really want an example, look at my
FishTank piece and the repeated use of "And then ..." - I'm acutely aware of
it as one of my mannerisms, although nobody picked me up on it. Perhaps I'm
over-sensitive; but then, we're each of us sensitive to different things!
O.
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 28 Mar 2002 01:26:11 GMT
A few comments.
The narrator seems to be really blurry about what happened when. Sometimes,
especially early on, we move from one sex scene to some kind of contemplation,
to an imagined sex scene, to another sex scene not quite flowing out of the
first, not in any ordinary linear way, in any event. It makes me feel that the
full title should be:
Somewhere (Not Here) Sometime (Not now).
The letter, the only letter Nick ever wrote to Ellie. When did he write it?
After the events of the story? Before? During? Is this a dangling detail or
vital to the flavor or just something?
Nick goes over to find something and finds Peter in Ellie's bed - is this after
he's in fact seen her bed before? Next thing we know there's Stu. I almost had
the feeling Stu was in Eli's bed, too. The Sixth Arm Problem. (SAP). (John
Irving would solve this by importing a couple of exotic animals.)
I suspect all this fuzziness does really show us this guy and that
relationship. Poor sap.
This guy in some ways seemed awfully old and experienced for a college kid.
(Though not so obviously of another time and place as Jack Nicholson in Carnal
Knowledge.) A lot of the characters struck me that way. Probably grad
students, although they don't seem quite like grad students, either. But maybe
it's not so much the guy who seems old and experiences as the writing, the
voice. Seems like a mid to late twenties voice.
Okay now (whenever that is) Nick can't remember whether he came that time on
the floor after the party, but at the time is such a thing possible? It's kind
of neat to think that he didn't and she did, a reversal of roles, and I really
like the fragility and evanescence of the physical evidence.
Exactly what is Ellie learning with Peter, and why does Nick allow it?
Great story - I'll be going back to it a few more times, I'm sure.
- Mat
From: DrSpin
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 27 Mar 2002 20:25:22 -0800
From: Always Horny
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 09:15:06 +0100
Desdmona22 wrote:
1) 2 positive comments
1-I like the pace of the story. The flow, the setting, and the way this is not
like other stories.
2-The scene between this guy and the green-eyed girl is very nicely done.
2) 2 things to improve
1-Have you seen the size of this second paragraph? ouch ...
2-The vocabulary & style are very much inward "provincial" to a US-an subgroup.
Very difficult for a foreigner to understand. (but somehow I feel that you don't
give a damn, as long as it's hip for The In Crowd). The use of many elliptical
sentences, and at times over-use, does not help.
OK, this has already been said by Spin, so I'll give a different one:
2bis-The description of that dejected group is excellent. The description of the
dynamic and the sex are also good and fun. But somehow I don't see that they
re-inforce each other. That Ellie girl being this way kinda pollutes the erotic
value of some scenes for me. You might want to segregate better the dejection on
one side and the erotic part on the other. But hey, that is your story not mine.
Thanks for sharing a nice story.
BTW, this fourth arm: I've always put it outstretched in front of me, under her
head. Gives her a pillow and a hug at the same time. Never had a complaint.
AH
A_H_01 at hotmail. com
From: jane
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 28 Mar 2002 22:11:45 -0800
well done to nick ... my reluctance to read much erotica might be my
fear that it would make me jealous of the writing ... his story tends
to support that argument ...
i love his obvious title ... not his first choice or his second ...
the one he missed ... the one inside his story: "the fourth arm" ...or
even: "the problem of the fourth arm" ... its a lovely anagram for the
whole story ... more than just "nick," i think ... whether he puts it
at the top of the story or not ... i like the symbol ...
and ...
And it was two days after that, or three, that I showed up early one
morning at her room looking for something, not even her, a notebook I
think, and Peter looked up at me from her pillow, blinking owlishly.
i'm not sure fiction gets any better than that ... and i cant really
tell him why ... i dont know enough about writing to put it into
words ... but when you've been punched in the stomach ... you know
it, eh? i wish i could see or say exactly how he pulled that rabbit
out of the hat ... but it moved me ... nick has a very subtle touch ...
that sentence wasn't particularly precious, not like the hair and the
leaves and the wind part, but it had the effect of making me feel
suddenly alone and needing to go stand by the fire ... i think that
deserves a wow ...
when i got to the chirstmas part, though, i got lost ...
That Christmas, my folks went to
Switzerland, and ...,
... I guess, by the wet sounds coming from the TV speakers, the
thick voices, oh, oh God, that feels so good, fuck me fuck me fuck me
please oh yes.
i expected that long part to have some significance later on ... it's
the kind of interlude im often taken to task for ... more of an
impediment than fuel for the impending climax ... unless i missed
something ...
and ...
"Wouldn't that be," I started to ask.
"Not really," said Ellie.
cryptic conversations, like that bit, so deeply carved that the whole
thing took me several readings to see them as gems that decorate his
characters ... little nuggets where i could say, "aha ... i get it now!
im close enough to see what theyre getting at" ... but if he hadn't
trapped this fish and tank-ed it ... i wonder if i would have studied
it ... i'm still not sure about his last few lines ... but with laundry
to do and kids to feed ... i don't think ill read it a fifth time ...
not just now ...
there, i did it, said something out loud ...
jane
ps: i think the others left [of started leaving].. [about five
paragraphs before Kimbers buttons coming undone] perhaps their exit
was less than important to the dancers ...
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:10:14 -0600
well done to nick ... my reluctance to read much erotica might be my
fear that it would make me jealous of the writing ... his story tends
to support that argument ...
i love his obvious title ... not his first choice or his second ...
the one he missed ... the one inside his story: "the fourth arm" ...or
even: "the problem of the fourth arm" ... its a lovely anagram for the
whole story ... more than just "nick," i think ... whether he puts it
at the top of the story or not ... i like the symbol ...
I like that! It is a very memorable part of it, and lots of us have
mentioned it.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Nick
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 29 Mar 2002 13:36:46 GMT
Positive 1 - This is a very visual story:
"But you have to," she said, unshouldering her bra and twisting it
around, "otherwise it isn't fair," deftly unhooking it and tossing it
aside.
"What's fair?" I said, jerking my sweater over my head.
"There has to be a balance," she said, pivoting on one hip, lifting the
covers, folding her knees to her chest so she could tuck her feet still
in those green socks under and pull the covers up over her belly.
"Otherwise," her hands diving under, her hips lifting, "it's like I'm
cheating on you." One hand fishing out and dropping to the floor a pair
of plain cotton underwear, baby blue.
was excellent observational stuff that added life to the characters.
2. Similar to the above, really, in that the characters of the story were
not simply sex objects.
Improvements
1. Too many words e.g.:
She had hair-colored hair,
too light to be brown, but dark enough that calling it blond would have
been
pushing it. Dishwater, I guess, or ash, if you're feeling charitable.
I think you should have stopped at the first line. People tell me that you
should be as economical as with words as possible. Im not sure I hold to
that, but its a good exercise to go thorugh a story, and at least see if
fewer words do it any harm.
2. Again, linked to the above, I felt it had the tendency to become a little
disorganised. There seemed to be too much going on.
I didnt get on with this story at all. I dont think thats your fault as I
cant put a finger on why, so I can't put the reasons in the 'improver'
section. Its certainly at least as well written as other stories I've
enjoyed, though.
Nick
From: oosh
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 05:17:27 GMT
Positive 1 - This is a very visual story:
Not just visual, really. I think of Nicholas's style as visual, too, but
actually it's just very well observed. It's not just full of sights, but
smells and feels and thoughts and feelings. It's well observed all round.
O.
From: Desdmona
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 29 Mar 2002 16:40:35 GMT
Somewhere (Not Here).
A Fish Tank submission by Nicholas Urfé.
Nicholas~
This is a fabulous story, well-written, not over-written, interesting, and
poignantly familiar to anyone who has been a college student.
The things I like especially much:
1)The perfect descriptions such as, "her buttocks nestled in the bowl of my
groin…" and "…then there are the sneakers: you'll be stroking along,
pleasant enough, and no real shift in anything but nonetheless here it comes
suddenly out of nowhere, and there isn't a power on Earth could stop your hips,
your cock, your balls now, not until it's had its way with you." And so many
more, too many to mention.
2) The contrast of another world. Ellie pretends she's from another world
when all the while, it seems all too common and earthly that she uses this as a
rationalization to make her infidelity seem OK. (I note that she has a fear of
infidelity, but it's never pointed out whose infidelity she fears) And it seems
as if Nick wants desperately to understand that other world, "Trying so hard to
act like I was really (if only for a moment) someplace else." When in
actuality, it is he who is the one who stumbles into another world, "The
whole situation was more than a little unreal: I was three sheets to the wind
and busy hauling up a fourth, slipping my hands into the pants of someone I'd
said maybe a dozen words to, total - it was all distant, hard to grasp,
happening to somebody else entirely, something I was hearing about after the
fact."
3) I like Nick. And more than anything, I like him because of this, "I believe
you," I said, after a moment that was arguably too long. Then: "I believe that
you believe."
4) And finally, Ellie fucks with her socks on; Kimber fucks with her socks off.
Socks on, socks off. Socks on, socks off, Little Grasshopper. (It's a learning
experience for Nick after all.)
The things that gave me pause:
1) The lengthy description of the alone time during Christmas break. Reality
is, this may have happened. But what does it add to this story?
2) OK, this is a ridiculous nitpick, but still I noticed it because I'm weird,
I suppose. The use of the word, "muzzy." It's a dynamic, descriptive word. It's
never used wrong. In fact, each time it's used, it's used perfectly, but by the
third time, I wished another dynamic descriptive word had been in its place. (I
told you it was ridiculous.)
I've been hobnobbing with the gallery goers down Canyon Road in Santa Fe this
week, so my take on this story is probably severely colored by that. A man to
my left says, "It's about infidelity and the rationalizations we'll come up
with to try and make the infidelity seem respectable." Another man to my right
says, "It's about a college guy getting fucked."
I'm in the middle saying, "It's just a great piece of art, can't we leave it at
that?"
Thank you Nicholas for submitting it to the FishTank.
Des
PS. Titles are my nemesis, but I like the Fourth Arm idea.
From: Nicholas Urfe
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 29 Mar 2002 22:54:37 -0800
Gee, thanks, guys. I've been checking the newsgroup every day with
this dumb grin on my face and I've had to go and jerry-rig a system of
splints and a neckbrace to hold up my swollen head. And it's all your
fault. I hope you can live with yourselves.
This - this was an odd one. It's a quasi-semi-autobiographical piece,
which I think more than a few of you picked up on, and which really is
nonetheless neither here nor there when it comes to reading the
piece - but had a lot to do, I think, with writing it, and that's
partly what we're here to talk about, I guess. What I most like about
it were the elipses, I guess - those jump cuts, for want of a better
word; the condensed feeling, that left celia dissy; the unannounced
scene-changes, that threw Vinnie. Sorry, guys; they stay, for the most
part (and no announcements, no * or extra carriage returns, either;
this piece, I think, needs that uninterrupted flow). I trust those
effects more than not, and combined with the fragmentary
dialogue - something I am arguably coming to love too, too well, but
it's deliberate, here - it gives the thing a glancing, fragmentary,
evanescent iffiness that I hadn't intended so much going in, but am
very happy with coming out.
The reason I bring this up is, basing this all on "real" people and
"real" events (and should I apologize to the "real" Peter[s], one of
whom I liked much better than this story might suggest? to say nothing
of the "real" Ellie, whom I'm afraid I've used and abused terribly?)
as I did, I was able to trust those glancing cuts and sudden jumps
much more than I've been able to with stuff I just, you know, made up.
- Sobering, that. I'm not sure if it means I need to trust myself more
in leaving out that which is unnecessary, or that my fictional
imagination isn't up to the real, and still needs the crutch of
ghastly explication. Probably both.
Titles: Spin is right; "Somewhere (Not Here)" doesn't work. And I'm
afraid "Somewhere (Not Here), Sometime (Not Now)" - while almost
carrying the day with cheeky excess - is in the end more of the same
boat. "The Problem of the Fourth Arm" is a lovely suggestion (thanks,
jane), but -
Actually, let's talk about the Fourth Arm for a minute.
Isaac Asimov told this story (yes, I'm telling the Asimov story again;
if you've already heard it, skip down a couple of paragraphs and have
a beer while I'm covering it for everyone else) about happening upon a
lecture on one of his stories (probably "Nightfall") at some college
campus or another and impishly sitting in, in the back of the room.
The professor said a bunch of stuff that Asimov found quizzical at
best and utterly wrong-headed to boot, and after the lecture the Good
Doctor strode up to the professor and said, "You know, I wrote that
story, and that wasn't what I meant at all!"
And the professor smiled and said, "Just because you wrote the story
doesn't mean you know anything about it at all."
That fourth arm stuff? See, I threw that in because dealing with the
fourth bloody arm is one of the more vivid things I remember about
that particular time and place, or at least in this particular context
it is. I threw it in because so many sex scenes depend on bizarrely
precise descriptions of the placement of body parts, as if sex were
nothing more than logistics and plumbing, and I was pulling what I
doubtless thought was a devilishly clever Urfeian reversal. I threw it
in mostly as a joke, and then I go and read celia's point about its
symbolic value, and let me tell you, you could have pole-axed me with
a goddamn feather. Because she's fucking right, you know, and I had no
idea until she said it.
I can be a terribly stupid reader, sometimes.
Anyway. The fourth arm is now a terribly delicate creature in my eyes;
any prodding and I'm afraid it'll turn into a horribly obvious Gesture
or Symbol as opposed to the lovely sneaky bastard it is currently. (It
is lovely and sneaky. Right?) I'll be dancing oh, so carefully around
it in the re-write. And titling the story with anything to do with a
Fourth Arm will, I'm afraid, privilege that bugger too much for my
comfort.
So. Title. Right now, I'm leaning towards "Not Here, Not Now." Which I
think sums up a lot of what's going on from a couple of different
angles.
Some specific comments: thanks to Denny for pointing out it's "Old
Grand-Dad," not "Old Grandad"; a subsequent trip to the liquor store
not only confirmed this, but reminded me of the swill we drank in
those days when we couldn't get Grand-Dad, for whatever reason: Old
Overholt. Oh, boy.
Conjugate seemed to find Kimber air-headed, which puzzled me;
certainly, she was the sharpest knife in the bunch to my mind - but I
suppose that depends on how you read her reaction to what happened:
was she thrilled to have had the one-night guiltless stand with the
cute(ish) tongue-tied boy she'd spotted at the bar, or had she been
hoping for something more, and so waited fruitlessly by the phone? - I
don't think it's the place of this story to answer that, by any means,
though I know what I think (and what "really" happened. I think).
I'm inordinately pleased Jeff empathized so strongly with Peter and
Ellie, in spite of the story's sneaky insistence otherwise. Makes me
feel better about my manipulative side, and maybe I don't owe an
apology to that "real" Peter, after all.
I like Spin's suggestion about the stale bottle of piss (and THERE'S a
title, you know), but that's really another story about something
else. As he noted.
oosh - oosh, oosh, oosh. I hereby give you license to list any and all
improvements you think I (at least) should make without ever fearing
charges of impudence or temerity. Your close reading of my dialogic
quirks is - though couched with such floridly eloquent
politesse - nonetheless so very close to the bone. Where it ought to
be. Thank you, and I shall be watching it on the rewrite. Not to
reduce them overmuch - it IS a mannerism I happen to like, and a way of
dealing with dialogue I don't see all that much, and I adore dialogue.
But it shouldn't be noticed as a thing in and of itself. (A style, and
not a manner.) So. - On the other hand, I think (rather strongly)
you're wrong about the diminuendo needing to mirror more closely the
opening crescendo, or rather, that the fix lies in tinkering with the
end. There is a little bit of a balance problem with the young Richard
Thomas, but the means to fix it lies back at the beginning.
I would like to point out to Mat that, while the voice is one of
world-weary experience (and who doesn't like looking back on their
college days with that perfect blend of ceremonial celebration
leavened with wry gravitas? It's one of the better emotions, I've
always thought), all of the incidents written - all of them? Let me
think: yes, all of the pertinent ones - occurred during my sophomore
year of college. Also: that I had indeed a sketched note in the margin
of the handwritten first draft: "Include circumstances of letter?"
referring to that one and only letter written to Ellie; I never got
around to typing something up, though. Too much temptation to turn it
into a farce; too much of a distraction. So.
And while I'm pleased as punch that Desdmona likes Nick specifically
for what he says to Ellie: "I believe that you believe," it's
precisely that moment that to me is indicative - taken with the lie he
later indulges in - of some profound moral cowardice. - But we are
overly hard on our younger selves, perhaps.
Things to improve: there's some word choice issues. No one - and I mean
no one - complained about "balls" and "balls," one right after the
other, in that paragraph detailing the difference between brute force
orgasms and sneakers; I look at it now and it grates my eyeballs.
There's a couple of other places like that. Plus, there's the dialogue
to smooth out a little and I think I'm going to cut one of the
"muzzy"s. The one describing Louise's voice. - I'm thinking about it,
mind. I've been doing a lot of that, lately: setting echoes inside a
single piece through repetition of a particular word or a phrase, or a
gesture, but always in a different context each time it comes up. A
serialist trick, maybe. This one has a number of such, or at least I
remember putting several in when I wrote it. But three "muzzy"s might
be one muzzy too much.
Also: em-dashes. I tried to write this as nakedly as possible, or at
least in a voice as close to my "usual" voice, cleaned up a bit for
company. (The difference between style and substance is an illusion,
of course; a story is nothing but verbal style.) I'd played a couple
of tricks with em-dashes, which, in this plain-vanilla ASCII
environment are represented as " - "; at the last minute, I yanked
those out. (Mostly: beginning a sentence with an em-dash, as a way of
signalling the beginning of a new train of thought, but one still
connected with a point in the same paragraph; a definite break, but
not as strong as a paragraph break.) I'm thinking about putting them
back in.
Structurally, we come to the biggest problem (perhaps) and one tied in
with the fact that this is an autobiographical piece, and that I was
trusting those showy jump cuts as a result: Nick and Kimber were NOT
having sex in public. jane got it, but entirely too many other people
didn't, and it caused actual, detrimental confusion (rather than the
impish ambiguity I usually adore). I need to find some way of
indicating that, though a few people were hanging about as Nick and
Kimber began to stagger around with tongues in each other's mouths and
hands in each other's pockets, they'd all left by the time flies were
being unbuttoned. And all without losing the momentum of the scene,
darn it, which is key.
Momentum: those 500 words about Christmas break, maybe a tenth of the
overall piece, nonetheless seems to be stopping some people dead.
What's it doing there? I'm not entirely certain. There needs to be
some distance between set-up and take-down, as it were; a stretch of
not so much dead space as a plateau before the end-game. But this
stretch is a bit self-indulgent - I'm throwing in references to Diane
Duane and Infocom which are more badges to who I am (and was) than
necessary information for the story. On the one hand, I adore those
touches, and despise utilitarian authors who insist on stripping
ancillary details and fillips from their stories (there is no
difference between style and substance, darn it); on the other hand,
it's stopping things too dead, throwing too many new faces into the
mix, and adding to the air of disorganization that Nick Telepneff
mentioned (another Nick? Oy!). (On the third hand: I have no idea
[yet] how to, say, work Stu into the mix earlier or less
intrusively - at the moment, at least. - Howie's not so important; I'm
not so much worried about him, and his punchline will have to wait for
another day and another story.)
And young Richard, who's at once doing a bit too much and not enough.
In part because I wasn't certain what he was doing in the story, or
how important he was. The logistics of beds and dorms are vital, and I
think his relationship needs to be clearly established up front (it
should be a single long-term relationship, I think; at least, I think
it works best that way); I also think Nick should spend a night or two
on a couch before he hooks up with Ellie - or, at least, alude to those
nights now that he's sleeping in someone else's bed and pondering the
Fourth Arm. I think that will handily fix the problem of Richard, and
tie the diminuendo and crescendo together neatly, without losing the
last scene (which I adore, precisely as it is a last scene; thanks,
Bradley).
Also, I think maybe the church bells were a bit much. We'll see.
::
So. Thanks (again) to everyone, especially anyone whom I didn't call
out specifically. I shall indeed be attempting to place this one
somewhere - it started as a trifle, but I think (and with no small debt
to the Fish Tank) it could maybe become something special. We'll see.
Just don't hold your breath. I have two stories to finish already for
Ruthie's (one of them being another quasi-semi-autobiographical piece,
and rather terribly different than this one), and that essay on Amber
I've been promising MichaelD (2500 words and counting already), and,
well, a bunch of other stuff. I have a place I'm going with this one,
though; I don't think there will be much of a fallow period, if any.
And y'all'll be the first (second?) to know what happens to it.
But enough! I'm going to have trouble fitting this head through doors.
Raise a glass with me, now: all hail the Fish Tank, and all who swim
there! And three fuckin' cheers for Desdmona, the hostess with the
mostest!
Viva la glub glub!
Best,
- n.
"When the writer does have a deep sense of the model that's
controlling his or her work, however, and someone makes a criticism
that points up where the model has, for a moment, not been followed,
often the writer can hardly wait to make the suggested change. (I've
seen writers sit down on the classroom floor to correct a manuscript
before leaving the workshop.)"
hang on, I'll be with you in a minute:
http://www.asstr.org/~nickurfe/ift/
http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 16:36:35 -0600
On 29 Mar 2002 22:54:37 -0800, [email protected] (Nicholas Urfe)
wrote:
Conjugate seemed to find Kimber air-headed, which puzzled me;
certainly, she was the sharpest knife in the bunch to my mind - but I
suppose that depends on how you read her reaction to what happened:
was she thrilled to have had the one-night guiltless stand with the
cute(ish) tongue-tied boy she'd spotted at the bar, or had she been
hoping for something more, and so waited fruitlessly by the phone? - I
don't think it's the place of this story to answer that, by any means,
though I know what I think (and what "really" happened. I think).
Wasn't it Ellie he thought was air-headed? Or maybe it was
everyone?
I'm inordinately pleased Jeff empathized so strongly with Peter and
Ellie, in spite of the story's sneaky insistence otherwise. Makes me
feel better about my manipulative side, and maybe I don't owe an
apology to that "real" Peter, after all.
Oh, you probably still do. In my later college years I was in
relationships which had some resemblance to Peter and Louise. Not a
perfect match, but the threesome/foursome relationship at the end with
the open "exploring" with other people definitely feels similar. I do
think I was less condescending to those who weren't as enlightened as
I :-)
And while I'm pleased as punch that Desdmona likes Nick specifically
for what he says to Ellie: "I believe that you believe," it's
precisely that moment that to me is indicative - taken with the lie he
later indulges in - of some profound moral cowardice. - But we are
overly hard on our younger selves, perhaps.
It takes some work to forgive ourselves. It is easier perhaps to
try to forget about our past mistakes, but that means forgetting about
all of the good things which happeneed too.
Maybe that is the whole good point to doing the story?
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Jacques LeBlanc
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 30 Mar 2002 15:15:39 -0800
Anyway. The fourth arm is now a terribly delicate creature in my eyes;
any prodding and I'm afraid it'll turn into a horribly obvious Gesture
or Symbol as opposed to the lovely sneaky bastard it is currently. (It
is lovely and sneaky. Right?
That depends on whether the reader has seen Kevin Smith's "Mallrats."
There's a scene in which Brodie Bruce describes having the "fourth arm
problem" with his ex-girlfriend, and when his rather literal-minded
buddy T.C. Quint asks, "So?" he replies, "So? So it's a metaphor for
our entire relationship!"
Later,
Jacques
From: Conjugate
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 19:06:38 -0500
Gee, thanks, guys. I've been checking the newsgroup every day with
this dumb grin on my face and I've had to go and jerry-rig a system of
splints and a neckbrace to hold up my swollen head. And it's all your
fault. I hope you can live with yourselves.
You're welcome; thank you for posting the story.
Conjugate seemed to find Kimber air-headed, which puzzled me;
certainly, she was the sharpest knife in the bunch to my mind - but I
suppose that depends on how you read her reaction to what happened:
was she thrilled to have had the one-night guiltless stand with the
cute(ish) tongue-tied boy she'd spotted at the bar, or had she been
hoping for something more, and so waited fruitlessly by the phone? - I
don't think it's the place of this story to answer that, by any means,
though I know what I think (and what "really" happened. I think).
Certainly, Kimber was sharp. I mean, Ellie was an airhead. See, I wrote:
"Also, if it had been me writing it, I would have had the viewpoint
character get into a relationship with a woman who wouldn't be quite so,
well, air-headed." I meant the relationship that the viewpoint character
got into before the story started, not the one he was probing into later in
the story. But that wasn't really a criticism; it was a half-hearted effort
to find two things to improve.
Conjugate
From: oosh
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 01:37:20 GMT
On the other hand, I think (rather strongly)
you're wrong about the diminuendo needing to mirror more closely the
opening crescendo, or rather, that the fix lies in tinkering with the
end. There is a little bit of a balance problem with the young Richard
Thomas, but the means to fix it lies back at the beginning.
You know best. I appreciate that this is an autobiographical piece, and so
perhaps these structural issues are rather impious - I think the truth
deserves our respect however it is couched. But if I were to judge it as
pure fiction, then I'd like to see a close relationship between the ending
and the title, and your indecision about the title led me to think you
might be undecided about the ending too. Really, I'm just nagging you into
deciding what unifying thread you're going to go for, and suggesting that
the ending should have a role in that unifying scheme.
But as a very honest and brilliantly observed reminiscence, this piece
already has my complete trust and admiration.
O.
From: PleaseCain
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 26 Mar 2002 23:05:12 GMT
Frivolous, I know, but just this morning I saw "I Was a Male War Bride," and
Cary Grant performed this great little bit about the extra hand while trying to
sleep on a straight-backed wooden chair. He had all that physical training
from an acrobatic troop in vaudeville, which Howard Hawks obviously
appreciated, always turning him loose. (The missing French accent was quite
another thing.) Cary Grant was something special.
Cain
From: Uther Pendragon
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 2 Apr 2002 14:20:03 -0700
If you put your arm under her pillow and her head, then that hand has
pretty good access to her breasts. (And, yes, the arm does tend to "go to
sleep.") To quote Jeanette, "There is room for two in a twin bed (but not
room for two and a wet spot.)"
If you put your arm under her pillow and her head, then that hand has
pretty good access to her breasts. (And, yes, the arm does tend to "go to
sleep.") To quote Jeanette, "There is room for two in a twin bed (but not
room for two and a wet spot.)"
Yes, that is my solution for the fourth arm.
But what about the Sixth Arm thing, when you have three in a small
bed?
(I think the solution is the same, for me at least. It just gets a
lot harder to get comfy in a small bed with more people in it.)
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: oosh
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 12:19:49 GMT
But what about the Sixth Arm thing, when you have three in a small
bed?
Perhaps you should ask the goddess Kali (see
http://www.exoticindiaart.com/kali.htm) - but be careful how you address
her, or you could end up swinging from her belt ...
O.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 08:54:01 -0600
But what about the Sixth Arm thing, when you have three in a small
bed?
Perhaps you should ask the goddess Kali (see
http://www.exoticindiaart.com/kali.htm) - but be careful how you address
her, or you could end up swinging from her belt ...
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Comments on Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe.
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From: Bradley Stoke
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 25 Mar 2002 05:40:40 -0800
Nicholas
Phew!
Well! I really enjoyed this.
And as is required, why did I enjoy it?
Well, I can think of more than two good reasons, so, at the risk of repeating what someone else might say, I’ll exceed my quota and give a few:
1. I liked the college setting. It was very real. Very much like my own recollections. Parties, places, beer and semesters. And, of course, that strange fluidity of sexual relationships. It's great to read a story not set in some middle-aged, middle-class Middle America.
2. I liked the sex. Normally, I don't. Nomally, the sexual descriptions in the stuff I read on ASSM are the bits I skip over. Often rather less erotic than the events leading up to them. But here they are. Expertly written. And deliciously erotic. I love the description of the cold fingers and the warm vagina. Like getting into a warm bath with a cold hand-rail.
3. I love the way that Nicholas satirises all the stuff about rebirth, astrology and all that while still resisting the temptation to make a meal of it.
4. I really like the way that relationships and sex and love and emotion happens in the story as it does in real life. Not necessarily with the right people at the right time and in the right way.
5. And I love the end. It evolved out of the story's logic. Happens at the right time. And by both resolving and not resolving the story says exactly what it ought to be.
And as far as negatives are concerned? Well, I've had problems in finding negative criticisms before. I tend to agree with celia batau. Sometimes striving for perfection misses the point altogether. So, I'll skip on the criticism. And anyway I've already exhausted my quota.
Bradley Stoke
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 25 Mar 2002 18:13:56 GMT
I liked the stuff about the Fourth Hand but at the same time it seemed sort of long and meandering and was a little irritating at the time, though afterwards, coming back to it, it seemed just right.
I liked the opening and how quickly, succinctly we hear about Elle and fucking, about her fear of infidelity, and then this stays in the background in a way and in another way it doesn't: we have to wonder what's going on when she keeps saying, "You should." And the end, of course. But I can't quite get those two things together - her supposed fear of infidelity and her urging her partner to have another partner. Neat. Whether it belongs in the story or not, I would like to hear Ellie's words about being afraid of infidelity.
So is that two comments or four ... or none?
- Mat
From: dennyw
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:33:35 -0800
On 25 Mar 2002 06:37:05 GMT, [email protected] (Desdmona22) held forth, saying:
a couple of 'proofreader' comments sent by email; I'm too brain-dead to absorb and comment upon the story itself.
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: Conjugate
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:20:49 -0500
"Desdmona22" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
Marvelous characterization, nice pace, nice scene-setting. There are a couple of places where I would have snipped the description a bit shorter. Mat has already mentioned the "Fourth Arm" scene, so I won't; I'll mention instead the scene with Louise, which somehow seemed to me to go on a bit long. Maybe not. It's hard for me to judge. What to cut? Perhaps the fact that the beer was cheap in green glass bottles? No, that sort of description lends authenticity. Also, if it had been me writing it, I would have had the viewpoint character get into a relationship with a woman who wouldn't be quite so, well, air-headed. Still, that's just me, and perhaps it's my desire to be in a permanent, or at least lasting, relationship.
Overall, a nice piece; I like it much.
Conjugate
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:23:49 -0600
On 25 Mar 2002 06:37:05 GMT, [email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote:
First quick thing to improve: I had to look up Richard Thomas. I'm guessing that means the "John-Boy" on the Walton's kid, at some age appropriate for college, probably blond haired rather than brownish. I know that the roommate doesn't play a big role, but I think we need to know more about him. If nothing else, how and why Nick and the roommate get along (or not).
Conversely, and it probably says more about my viewing habits, Kyle Maclachlan was no trouble at all to imagine, thinking Twin Peaks viewpoint. I'm not sure about looking "creepy," unless you just assume the right sort of odd stare which disturbs you, finding him looking at you whenever you turn your eyes on him.
Or maybe that is another story. Anyway, the roommate thing bugs me because it is significant, in terms of limiting liaison locations and a key in forcing the pattern of the coupling. Neither he nor his lover say much, but the ending scene seems pretty poignant to me.
Oh, I should give my imagined descriptions from the names: The roommate is a blond tall innocent looking farm-boy sort, but something about it makes you think it is an act. The lover, though, he is also tall and nicely built, with dark hair and piercing eyes. Blue eyes, I think, but you can imagine it that way and it works well. Both have longer but not really long hair, not crew cut college boy types.
I like the posted title. That is a suggestion, only because you need to read the entire story to get it in full. It doesn't lead the ending, but maybe it explains it? It is hard to make a title for a story like this one, I think.
I liked the whole college life scene, seemingly reminscent of my own. Except that maybe I'd be more like Peter than Nick, but I do find it interesting to read about the guy who just didn't quite "get it" Not that the thing which Ellie shared with Peter was necessarily any more real than the place Nick hoped to get to, but at least they felt they'd found it and were happy with it.
Was Nick lost, not quite with Ellie nor with Kimber? Maybe Nick didn't find his way to 'somewhere' but it was nice to ride along with him as he looked. It makes me wonder what happens next, but I think that is past the scope of the story. The wondering makes me think.
I liked the sexy dancing bit. I think it describes the whole falling into instant lust or love or whatever thing which sometimes happens. The reluctance to let it happen shows nicely.
On a minor note, the fourth arm isn't a problem if you don't mind the tingly achy feeling of having it slept on. Maybe I'm weird, but it just never bothered me, and I've slept in single beds and cots like that. I did like the whole thinking about it process, trying to find the most comfortable arrangement. But sometimes a bit of discomfort is the best you can arrange.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 26 Mar 2002 17:59:59 GMT
Jeff writes:
I find that it isn't a problem until you start thinking about it. If I'm leaning in, which I usually am, on my left side, which I usually am, which means I'm tilted at about a 45 degree angle, my left arm seems to do okay simply left on its own behind me.
- Mat
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 18:26:32 -0600
On 26 Mar 2002 17:59:59 GMT, [email protected] (mat twassel) wrote:
I think the story did a fine job of talking about the whole situation. It is something which I'd guess most people learn once they share a bed with someone, but it is easy to forget the inconvenient discoveries after a bit of practice makes them familiar.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: PleaseCain
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 26 Mar 2002 22:32:41 GMT
Wow. Wonderful writing, and story. The characters, the details, the opening, all richly drawn. I like the voice, and the vocabulary, that fits neatly inside it. The piece exudes energy and sadness, and just feels genuine.
I'm afraid I don't have much to offer by way of improvement. Rake through it a few times with the red, ship it to the right publisher, and you've got a sale. Not a helpful critique, sorry; I think I'm pissy from last week. This is my favorite of yours I've read, and now I'm hooked to go read the others. I truly enjoyed it. Please let me know what happens to this one. Thanks.
Cain
From: celia batau
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:32:08 -0800
hi Nicholas!
"Desdmona22" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
pozzie one: the story had a really old feel to it. like forties old. maybe it was just yesterday we were pushing through Dostoevsky at school before class and the chiming bell went off. maybe it was that was in our mind when we read about Albert Hall. also the gossamer connections between the characters balanced with the undercurrents pushing them apart added to that sense of simple concreteness. but then reading about pornos and computers made us change the time, but we didn't mind. :)
pozzie two: maybe we're reading too much into it, but we think Nick was that fourth arm. not able to find a place where he could be comfortable.
neggie one: it was like a condensed version of a longer story. the way the characters were introduced and the way settings changed made us think we had accidently skipped over something. we liked how it made the characters seem stronger, but our dissy head had a difficult time knowing we weren't missing pieces of the story.
neggie two: the beginning of the sex between Nick and Kimber. Nick didn't seem to be the kind of person to have sex in public (middle of the party), and even though he was drunk, there wasn't a fuzziness to miss a change in location. adding the next morning with her hand on the wood floor, and it didn't seem consistent.
thanks for sharing it. :)
-cb
From: DrSpin
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 26 Mar 2002 22:42:29 -0800
In article <[email protected]>, Nicholas Urfe posted ...
About titles. Some writers here go through toothache-like agony over choosing titles. I won't name names but I know who you are. Urfe is not one of them, I also know. I love titles. They can be tiny Flashstories all on their own.
There are many views. The cheerfully manipulative Michael Dalton, for example, advises his titles like "Amber: The Making Of A Fuck Toy" gather squillions of hits, and he's not King of the Downloads for nothing. But I do think random readers are guided by titles, and "Somewhere (Not Here)", although appropriate, says nothing in that respect.
But it's author's choice.
About "Somewhere (Not Here)":
I love Urfe's style, not least because it's different. He's the only one like him. You get originality, and it even feels like originality. I have some talent at mimicking other writing styles, but no way could I do Urfe.
It's also hard work. Words and images flash past your eyes at lightning speed, and he's jumping and jerking all over the place. Hang on, you say, reading it. What? Who? I'll just have to go backwards for a second and work that out.
I'm not looking forward to this. I've been putting it off. But here goes.
- Great intro paragraph. Terrific early realistic dialogue, staccato-style.
- I had no problem with the Fourth Arm Thing. Felt right to me.
- What's a Mucha girl? It's a US shampoo brand, I guess. The audience is global, remember.
- That's very nearly a 100-word sentence, Nick. I ought to object on principle alone. But let it be, let it be.
- Geeze, that's good. I'd steal it, but it would keep looking like Urfe no matter how I disguised it.
OK. I'm finished, Nick. Nothing to pick at, not even any real suggestions to offer. It's an excellent story verging on brilliant.
If it was my story I'd want to make more of Louise and the general community feeling of disappointment that he won't really try with her. I'd be putting Louise up more, standing around like a stale bottle of piss (as they say hereabouts), making everybody feel uncomfortable, especially herself. But that's me. I do those depressing things.
Now, back to the title. Nope. Nothing is emerging. Sorry.
DrSpin
* also at [email protected] and at http://www.ruthiesclub.com
From: DrSpin
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 27 Mar 2002 05:03:03 -0800
In article <[email protected]>, DrSpin asked ...
It came to me later. The art nouveau guy. Sheilas with wild hair.
DrSpin
* also at [email protected] and at http://www.ruthiesclub.com
From: Conjugate
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 18:43:30 -0500
"DrSpin" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
No, I think they were referring to the character from Shakespeare's play named after him.
You know.
Mucha Do About Nothing is the title.
Conjugate
"Puns! Never apologize, never explain!" - Dogbert
From: Vinnie Tesla
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 20:10:51 GMT
Uncomfortably familiar.
The dazed passivity of the protagonist, too caught up in new (or new-ish) powerful emotions and complicated situations and unfamiliar arrangements to even imagine seizing the rudder rings true from early collegate experiences of my own. Including the new age stuff. Including the idiosyncratic definitions of infidelity. Heck, including one of the names. Eep.
Even on a second read-through, some of the unannounced scene-changes threw me. A scattering of ***s or hr's would help, if that's not a deliberate effect.
The line "Did you tell Howie to tell her ...?" made me laugh.
Are they really supposed to be fucking on the dancefloor during the party? It does read that way, but it doesn't seem right at all.
The incomplete sentences are perhaps.
-Vinnie
[email protected]
http://www.asstr.org/~vinnie_tesla/
He polishes birds of the Vista
From: PleaseCain
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 30 Mar 2002 01:50:04 GMT
Vinnie commented that he would have liked more delineation between scenes. I don't know, I thought the transitions were for the most part ingenious, so that before I reread the story, I scrolled through to see how they were done. True, some of the back-and-forth feels murky, but the effect seems to underscore the protagonist's muddled situation: for all his self-consciousness, he isn't in control of many of his variables.
I use the three-dots all the time, but apart from affording the eye some welcome white space on the page, it usually strikes me as an artless device. Instead of a skillful blending of scenes into a seamless fabric of story, the double-return usually feels like squealing to a halt at a red light, and then you wait your thirty seconds and proceed calmly forward. Some can't or shouldn't be avoided, but others ...
It's something I have been thinking about lately. Probably just a matter of taste. (Watch, my next story will be an orgy of asterisks, don't you know.)
Cain
From: Vinnie Tesla
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 02:29:08 GMT
I'm actually feeling particularly warm & fuzzy about hr's this week, but that's essentially becuse they gave me an excuse to use font-variant: small-caps generously in the HTML copy of Victim/Victorian.
No worse than cross-cutting in film, anyway, I should think.
And I think we're more in agreement than you suggest. I said that visual delimiters might be desirable if the confusion wasn't deliberate.
On 30 Mar 2002 01:50:04 GMT, quoth the [email protected] (PleaseCain):
-Vinnie
[email protected]
http://www.asstr.org/~vinnie_tesla/
He polishes birds of the Vista
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 30 Mar 2002 03:16:15 GMT
Please Cain writes:
I've been thinking about this, or something close to this. How long after the story (after Nick falls asleep on the couch) is the story being told? Does it matter at all? To a degree it seems that the narrator is still a little muddled. These transitions are some of the main things that lead me to that impression.
- Mat
From: oosh
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 05:10:24 GMT
[email protected] (Vinnie Tesla) wrote in news:3ca2240a.22289610 @news.speakeasy.net:
I have to confess that this really wasn't a problem for me. Perhaps you can give an example.
O.
From: oosh
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:27:04 GMT
Giving a writer of Nicholas's calibre a list of "things to improve" suggests impudence, or at least temerity. Most of the preceding comments have been extremely positive, and I agree with them. I read the story twice, once for substance (relishing the style) and once for style (relishing the substance). What I'd prefer to offer is one or two things to think about - things I might have done differently. Perhaps I'd not have done them so well.
First, on style - Very many statements and exclamations are interrupted early on by short touches of attribution or description, for example
"I knew it," he said, "a Gemini".
There were about three of these (my counting isn't my strong point, so take the numbers as approximate but not wildly), and another seven where the intervening text was longer. In addition, there were five cases where the first words of the quotation were repeated, e.g.
"Are you?" [stuff]. "Are you OK?"
Finally, there were a lot of quotations that began '"What?" X said.'
In many instances, these were very nicely done - they were absolutely fine. I just wonder whether it happens a shade too often. It's a very expressive device, and it's always used very nicely. I'm not going to say that any one instance isn't defensible. Perhaps Nicholas should just consider, though, if he's edging toward the fine line between style and mannerism. I'm certainly not accusing him of doing so, but perhaps it's a point to watch.
Second, on substance - As it stands, the piece begins with a gentle crescendo - nothing violent here - and ends with a gentle diminuendo. That's nice. But I find myself wondering about those last four paragraphs. To me, the one beginning "Oh, we fucked again, Ellie and me" would make a very good ending, and perhaps it would tie in more closely with the title - which I think is a very good principle to follow. I wondered if the role of Richard Thomas was to be a foil: the Nick of the story seems almost to envy him (perhaps without justification) his apparently untroubled love-life. I don't know - I may have got the wrong end of the stick here. But I felt that putting Richard at the end gave him a prominence that I couldn't satisfactorily explain. I'm not saying that Nicholas should have omitted Richard: I'm merely wondering out loud whether perhaps the last two paragraphs should be moved further up. It would also improve the symmetry, by having Nick and Ellie making it (but not quite) as the first and last scenes of the piece.
On to the points to praise - much easier to find, and others have found many of them. Fortunately, there are so many good things about Nicholas's writing that there are still a few left for me, and I'm sure I won't exhaust them.
First, on style: in the flow of his beautifully rhythmic prose, there is so much brilliant metaphor and simile, and so many plain but evocative details, that his writing seems to fizz with brilliance. Sometimes, when reading less able prose, I feel that simile almost never works. With Nicholas, it almost never fails: "like a broken wing and tuck it under my pillow, pressing my pillow to my ear as if I were listening to it." - two excellent examples coming one upon the other.
Despite the richness of its descriptive power, there's nothing overdone about Nicholas's writing. All we see of Richard is the mole on his cheek, but the way Nicholas puts it there, we see the whole person. Sometimes he just chooses a magical word - "unearthly long fingers" - and again we see more than we expected. Nicholas knows how to get our imagination to fill in the blanks, and that is perhaps the secret of how to make something look more real than any amount of exhaustive detail can do. The start-of-term party is described as a "welcome-the-fuck-back" party. This is not only amusing: it tells us what the party was like, how the people behaved, what they felt about it. And again: when Nick finds Peter in Ellie's bed, the whole scene is presented by the simple phrase " ...looked up at me from her pillow". This kind of economy is what makes Nicholas's writing so fluid, so gripping, so immensely readable. It's not just that Nicholas's observation is so good: he uses it with economy and power, and he makes the picture come alive.
Moving toward the substance, Nicholas's use of dialogue is good always, but in the sex scenes it is superb: he conveys a very great deal by the way his characters try to articulate, but fail: far more suggestive of the intensity of what's going on than screams or grunts or panting. And sometimes he gets his effect just by general description - I particularly admired the paragraph that begins "If either of us came I don't actually remember it."
Finally, I liked the very delicate way that he suggests the romantic yearning of youth - "Oh, Ellie!" - and yet the uncertainty, the second thoughts, and the falsity and pretence into which our hopes and desires can sometimes lead us, often when we're young, and sometimes when we're not so young.
O.
From: DrSpin
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 27 Mar 2002 20:22:35 -0800
In article <[email protected]>, oosh said ...
Hah! There's something I've been seeking for a long time - a Nicholas Urfe definition: He walks the fine line between style and mannerism.
Brilliant, oosh. I'd be surprised if Urfe doesn't fancy it himself.
DrSpin
* also at [email protected] and at http://www.ruthiesclub.com
From: Gary Jordan
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 28 Mar 2002 08:29:40 GMT
DrSpin commented:
Yes, he has that certain je ne sais creme ale.
I have no positives nor improvements ot already suggested. (Actually I have no improvements at all - I've confined myself to taking notes.) I did wonder if celia hadn't nailed that image of Nick as fourth arm.
In this session of the FT, I'm a fourth arm.
Gary Jordan
"Old submariners never die. It's not within their scope." I have never done that before. I didn't do it this time.
And I'll never do it again.
(And this time, I mean it!)
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 28 Mar 2002 15:17:34 GMT
Is mannerism something to watch out for? What are some examples of bad mannerism?
- Mat
From: DrSpin
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 29 Mar 2002 09:17:44 -0800
In article <[email protected]>, Mat Twassel said ...
Bad mannerism? I don't know, but it's not the point. Mannerism was a style of art which rebelled, broke away from what was considered proper and solid. This is not my strong suit, by any means. 16th century Italian, I think. There was a bunch of them. Michaelangelo was one.
Most appropriate to Urfe, I think.
DrSpin
* also at [email protected] and at http://www.ruthiesclub.com
From: oosh
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 05:14:04 GMT
[email protected] (mat twassel) wrote in news:20020328101734.20847.00000528 @mb-mm.aol.com:
As a reader, not at all! As a writer, perhaps. As a critic, yes.
What are some examples of bad mannerism?
Anything that's effective, but done rather often, may become a mannerism: it's only bad when it's done so often that it distracts, so that its effectiveness is diminished. If you really want an example, look at my FishTank piece and the repeated use of "And then ..." - I'm acutely aware of it as one of my mannerisms, although nobody picked me up on it. Perhaps I'm over-sensitive; but then, we're each of us sensitive to different things!
O.
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 28 Mar 2002 01:26:11 GMT
A few comments.
The narrator seems to be really blurry about what happened when. Sometimes, especially early on, we move from one sex scene to some kind of contemplation, to an imagined sex scene, to another sex scene not quite flowing out of the first, not in any ordinary linear way, in any event. It makes me feel that the full title should be: Somewhere (Not Here) Sometime (Not now).
The letter, the only letter Nick ever wrote to Ellie. When did he write it? After the events of the story? Before? During? Is this a dangling detail or vital to the flavor or just something?
Nick goes over to find something and finds Peter in Ellie's bed - is this after he's in fact seen her bed before? Next thing we know there's Stu. I almost had the feeling Stu was in Eli's bed, too. The Sixth Arm Problem. (SAP). (John Irving would solve this by importing a couple of exotic animals.)
I suspect all this fuzziness does really show us this guy and that relationship. Poor sap.
This guy in some ways seemed awfully old and experienced for a college kid. (Though not so obviously of another time and place as Jack Nicholson in Carnal Knowledge.) A lot of the characters struck me that way. Probably grad students, although they don't seem quite like grad students, either. But maybe it's not so much the guy who seems old and experiences as the writing, the voice. Seems like a mid to late twenties voice.
Okay now (whenever that is) Nick can't remember whether he came that time on the floor after the party, but at the time is such a thing possible? It's kind of neat to think that he didn't and she did, a reversal of roles, and I really like the fragility and evanescence of the physical evidence.
Exactly what is Ellie learning with Peter, and why does Nick allow it?
Great story - I'll be going back to it a few more times, I'm sure.
- Mat
From: DrSpin
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 27 Mar 2002 20:25:22 -0800
In article <[email protected]>, Mat Twassel said ...
Yes, that's very good. Perhaps even, adjusting slightly:
Somewhere (not here), Sometime (not now).
Like it.
DrSpin
* also at [email protected] and at http://www.ruthiesclub.com
From: Always Horny
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 09:15:06 +0100
Desdmona22 wrote:
1-I like the pace of the story. The flow, the setting, and the way this is not like other stories.
2-The scene between this guy and the green-eyed girl is very nicely done.
1-Have you seen the size of this second paragraph? ouch ...
2-The vocabulary & style are very much inward "provincial" to a US-an subgroup. Very difficult for a foreigner to understand. (but somehow I feel that you don't give a damn, as long as it's hip for The In Crowd). The use of many elliptical sentences, and at times over-use, does not help. OK, this has already been said by Spin, so I'll give a different one:
2bis-The description of that dejected group is excellent. The description of the dynamic and the sex are also good and fun. But somehow I don't see that they re-inforce each other. That Ellie girl being this way kinda pollutes the erotic value of some scenes for me. You might want to segregate better the dejection on one side and the erotic part on the other. But hey, that is your story not mine.
Thanks for sharing a nice story.
BTW, this fourth arm: I've always put it outstretched in front of me, under her head. Gives her a pillow and a hug at the same time. Never had a complaint.
AH
A_H_01 at hotmail. com
From: jane
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 28 Mar 2002 22:11:45 -0800
well done to nick ... my reluctance to read much erotica might be my fear that it would make me jealous of the writing ... his story tends to support that argument ...
i love his obvious title ... not his first choice or his second ... the one he missed ... the one inside his story: "the fourth arm" ...or even: "the problem of the fourth arm" ... its a lovely anagram for the whole story ... more than just "nick," i think ... whether he puts it at the top of the story or not ... i like the symbol ...
and ...
i'm not sure fiction gets any better than that ... and i cant really tell him why ... i dont know enough about writing to put it into words ... but when you've been punched in the stomach ... you know it, eh? i wish i could see or say exactly how he pulled that rabbit out of the hat ... but it moved me ... nick has a very subtle touch ... that sentence wasn't particularly precious, not like the hair and the leaves and the wind part, but it had the effect of making me feel suddenly alone and needing to go stand by the fire ... i think that deserves a wow ...
when i got to the chirstmas part, though, i got lost ...
i expected that long part to have some significance later on ... it's the kind of interlude im often taken to task for ... more of an impediment than fuel for the impending climax ... unless i missed something ...
and ...
cryptic conversations, like that bit, so deeply carved that the whole thing took me several readings to see them as gems that decorate his characters ... little nuggets where i could say, "aha ... i get it now! im close enough to see what theyre getting at" ... but if he hadn't trapped this fish and tank-ed it ... i wonder if i would have studied it ... i'm still not sure about his last few lines ... but with laundry to do and kids to feed ... i don't think ill read it a fifth time ... not just now ...
there, i did it, said something out loud ... jane
ps: i think the others left [of started leaving].. [about five paragraphs before Kimbers buttons coming undone] perhaps their exit was less than important to the dancers ...
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:10:14 -0600
On 28 Mar 2002 22:11:45 -0800, [email protected] (jane) wrote:
I like that! It is a very memorable part of it, and lots of us have mentioned it.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Nick
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 29 Mar 2002 13:36:46 GMT
Positive 1 - This is a very visual story:
was excellent observational stuff that added life to the characters.
2. Similar to the above, really, in that the characters of the story were not simply sex objects.
Improvements
1. Too many words e.g.:
I think you should have stopped at the first line. People tell me that you should be as economical as with words as possible. Im not sure I hold to that, but its a good exercise to go thorugh a story, and at least see if fewer words do it any harm.
2. Again, linked to the above, I felt it had the tendency to become a little disorganised. There seemed to be too much going on.
I didnt get on with this story at all. I dont think thats your fault as I cant put a finger on why, so I can't put the reasons in the 'improver' section. Its certainly at least as well written as other stories I've enjoyed, though.
Nick
From: oosh
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 05:17:27 GMT
Not just visual, really. I think of Nicholas's style as visual, too, but actually it's just very well observed. It's not just full of sights, but smells and feels and thoughts and feelings. It's well observed all round.
O.
From: Desdmona
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 29 Mar 2002 16:40:35 GMT
Nicholas~
This is a fabulous story, well-written, not over-written, interesting, and poignantly familiar to anyone who has been a college student.
The things I like especially much:
1)The perfect descriptions such as, "her buttocks nestled in the bowl of my groin…" and "…then there are the sneakers: you'll be stroking along, pleasant enough, and no real shift in anything but nonetheless here it comes suddenly out of nowhere, and there isn't a power on Earth could stop your hips, your cock, your balls now, not until it's had its way with you." And so many more, too many to mention.
2) The contrast of another world. Ellie pretends she's from another world when all the while, it seems all too common and earthly that she uses this as a rationalization to make her infidelity seem OK. (I note that she has a fear of infidelity, but it's never pointed out whose infidelity she fears) And it seems as if Nick wants desperately to understand that other world, "Trying so hard to act like I was really (if only for a moment) someplace else." When in actuality, it is he who is the one who stumbles into another world, "The whole situation was more than a little unreal: I was three sheets to the wind and busy hauling up a fourth, slipping my hands into the pants of someone I'd said maybe a dozen words to, total - it was all distant, hard to grasp, happening to somebody else entirely, something I was hearing about after the fact."
3) I like Nick. And more than anything, I like him because of this, "I believe you," I said, after a moment that was arguably too long. Then: "I believe that you believe."
4) And finally, Ellie fucks with her socks on; Kimber fucks with her socks off.
Socks on, socks off. Socks on, socks off, Little Grasshopper. (It's a learning experience for Nick after all.)
The things that gave me pause:
1) The lengthy description of the alone time during Christmas break. Reality is, this may have happened. But what does it add to this story?
2) OK, this is a ridiculous nitpick, but still I noticed it because I'm weird, I suppose. The use of the word, "muzzy." It's a dynamic, descriptive word. It's never used wrong. In fact, each time it's used, it's used perfectly, but by the third time, I wished another dynamic descriptive word had been in its place. (I told you it was ridiculous.)
I've been hobnobbing with the gallery goers down Canyon Road in Santa Fe this week, so my take on this story is probably severely colored by that. A man to my left says, "It's about infidelity and the rationalizations we'll come up with to try and make the infidelity seem respectable." Another man to my right says, "It's about a college guy getting fucked."
I'm in the middle saying, "It's just a great piece of art, can't we leave it at that?"
Thank you Nicholas for submitting it to the FishTank.
Des
PS. Titles are my nemesis, but I like the Fourth Arm idea.
From: Nicholas Urfe
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 29 Mar 2002 22:54:37 -0800
Gee, thanks, guys. I've been checking the newsgroup every day with this dumb grin on my face and I've had to go and jerry-rig a system of splints and a neckbrace to hold up my swollen head. And it's all your fault. I hope you can live with yourselves.
This - this was an odd one. It's a quasi-semi-autobiographical piece, which I think more than a few of you picked up on, and which really is nonetheless neither here nor there when it comes to reading the piece - but had a lot to do, I think, with writing it, and that's partly what we're here to talk about, I guess. What I most like about it were the elipses, I guess - those jump cuts, for want of a better word; the condensed feeling, that left celia dissy; the unannounced scene-changes, that threw Vinnie. Sorry, guys; they stay, for the most part (and no announcements, no * or extra carriage returns, either; this piece, I think, needs that uninterrupted flow). I trust those effects more than not, and combined with the fragmentary dialogue - something I am arguably coming to love too, too well, but it's deliberate, here - it gives the thing a glancing, fragmentary, evanescent iffiness that I hadn't intended so much going in, but am very happy with coming out.
The reason I bring this up is, basing this all on "real" people and "real" events (and should I apologize to the "real" Peter[s], one of whom I liked much better than this story might suggest? to say nothing of the "real" Ellie, whom I'm afraid I've used and abused terribly?) as I did, I was able to trust those glancing cuts and sudden jumps much more than I've been able to with stuff I just, you know, made up. - Sobering, that. I'm not sure if it means I need to trust myself more in leaving out that which is unnecessary, or that my fictional imagination isn't up to the real, and still needs the crutch of ghastly explication. Probably both.
Titles: Spin is right; "Somewhere (Not Here)" doesn't work. And I'm afraid "Somewhere (Not Here), Sometime (Not Now)" - while almost carrying the day with cheeky excess - is in the end more of the same boat. "The Problem of the Fourth Arm" is a lovely suggestion (thanks, jane), but -
Actually, let's talk about the Fourth Arm for a minute.
Isaac Asimov told this story (yes, I'm telling the Asimov story again; if you've already heard it, skip down a couple of paragraphs and have a beer while I'm covering it for everyone else) about happening upon a lecture on one of his stories (probably "Nightfall") at some college campus or another and impishly sitting in, in the back of the room. The professor said a bunch of stuff that Asimov found quizzical at best and utterly wrong-headed to boot, and after the lecture the Good Doctor strode up to the professor and said, "You know, I wrote that story, and that wasn't what I meant at all!"
And the professor smiled and said, "Just because you wrote the story doesn't mean you know anything about it at all."
That fourth arm stuff? See, I threw that in because dealing with the fourth bloody arm is one of the more vivid things I remember about that particular time and place, or at least in this particular context it is. I threw it in because so many sex scenes depend on bizarrely precise descriptions of the placement of body parts, as if sex were nothing more than logistics and plumbing, and I was pulling what I doubtless thought was a devilishly clever Urfeian reversal. I threw it in mostly as a joke, and then I go and read celia's point about its symbolic value, and let me tell you, you could have pole-axed me with a goddamn feather. Because she's fucking right, you know, and I had no idea until she said it.
I can be a terribly stupid reader, sometimes.
Anyway. The fourth arm is now a terribly delicate creature in my eyes; any prodding and I'm afraid it'll turn into a horribly obvious Gesture or Symbol as opposed to the lovely sneaky bastard it is currently. (It is lovely and sneaky. Right?) I'll be dancing oh, so carefully around it in the re-write. And titling the story with anything to do with a Fourth Arm will, I'm afraid, privilege that bugger too much for my comfort.
So. Title. Right now, I'm leaning towards "Not Here, Not Now." Which I think sums up a lot of what's going on from a couple of different angles.
Some specific comments: thanks to Denny for pointing out it's "Old Grand-Dad," not "Old Grandad"; a subsequent trip to the liquor store not only confirmed this, but reminded me of the swill we drank in those days when we couldn't get Grand-Dad, for whatever reason: Old Overholt. Oh, boy.
Conjugate seemed to find Kimber air-headed, which puzzled me; certainly, she was the sharpest knife in the bunch to my mind - but I suppose that depends on how you read her reaction to what happened: was she thrilled to have had the one-night guiltless stand with the cute(ish) tongue-tied boy she'd spotted at the bar, or had she been hoping for something more, and so waited fruitlessly by the phone? - I don't think it's the place of this story to answer that, by any means, though I know what I think (and what "really" happened. I think).
I'm inordinately pleased Jeff empathized so strongly with Peter and Ellie, in spite of the story's sneaky insistence otherwise. Makes me feel better about my manipulative side, and maybe I don't owe an apology to that "real" Peter, after all.
I like Spin's suggestion about the stale bottle of piss (and THERE'S a title, you know), but that's really another story about something else. As he noted.
oosh - oosh, oosh, oosh. I hereby give you license to list any and all improvements you think I (at least) should make without ever fearing charges of impudence or temerity. Your close reading of my dialogic quirks is - though couched with such floridly eloquent politesse - nonetheless so very close to the bone. Where it ought to be. Thank you, and I shall be watching it on the rewrite. Not to reduce them overmuch - it IS a mannerism I happen to like, and a way of dealing with dialogue I don't see all that much, and I adore dialogue. But it shouldn't be noticed as a thing in and of itself. (A style, and not a manner.) So. - On the other hand, I think (rather strongly) you're wrong about the diminuendo needing to mirror more closely the opening crescendo, or rather, that the fix lies in tinkering with the end. There is a little bit of a balance problem with the young Richard Thomas, but the means to fix it lies back at the beginning.
I would like to point out to Mat that, while the voice is one of world-weary experience (and who doesn't like looking back on their college days with that perfect blend of ceremonial celebration leavened with wry gravitas? It's one of the better emotions, I've always thought), all of the incidents written - all of them? Let me think: yes, all of the pertinent ones - occurred during my sophomore year of college. Also: that I had indeed a sketched note in the margin of the handwritten first draft: "Include circumstances of letter?" referring to that one and only letter written to Ellie; I never got around to typing something up, though. Too much temptation to turn it into a farce; too much of a distraction. So.
And while I'm pleased as punch that Desdmona likes Nick specifically for what he says to Ellie: "I believe that you believe," it's precisely that moment that to me is indicative - taken with the lie he later indulges in - of some profound moral cowardice. - But we are overly hard on our younger selves, perhaps.
Things to improve: there's some word choice issues. No one - and I mean no one - complained about "balls" and "balls," one right after the other, in that paragraph detailing the difference between brute force orgasms and sneakers; I look at it now and it grates my eyeballs. There's a couple of other places like that. Plus, there's the dialogue to smooth out a little and I think I'm going to cut one of the "muzzy"s. The one describing Louise's voice. - I'm thinking about it, mind. I've been doing a lot of that, lately: setting echoes inside a single piece through repetition of a particular word or a phrase, or a gesture, but always in a different context each time it comes up. A serialist trick, maybe. This one has a number of such, or at least I remember putting several in when I wrote it. But three "muzzy"s might be one muzzy too much.
Also: em-dashes. I tried to write this as nakedly as possible, or at least in a voice as close to my "usual" voice, cleaned up a bit for company. (The difference between style and substance is an illusion, of course; a story is nothing but verbal style.) I'd played a couple of tricks with em-dashes, which, in this plain-vanilla ASCII environment are represented as " - "; at the last minute, I yanked those out. (Mostly: beginning a sentence with an em-dash, as a way of signalling the beginning of a new train of thought, but one still connected with a point in the same paragraph; a definite break, but not as strong as a paragraph break.) I'm thinking about putting them back in.
Structurally, we come to the biggest problem (perhaps) and one tied in with the fact that this is an autobiographical piece, and that I was trusting those showy jump cuts as a result: Nick and Kimber were NOT having sex in public. jane got it, but entirely too many other people didn't, and it caused actual, detrimental confusion (rather than the impish ambiguity I usually adore). I need to find some way of indicating that, though a few people were hanging about as Nick and Kimber began to stagger around with tongues in each other's mouths and hands in each other's pockets, they'd all left by the time flies were being unbuttoned. And all without losing the momentum of the scene, darn it, which is key.
Momentum: those 500 words about Christmas break, maybe a tenth of the overall piece, nonetheless seems to be stopping some people dead. What's it doing there? I'm not entirely certain. There needs to be some distance between set-up and take-down, as it were; a stretch of not so much dead space as a plateau before the end-game. But this stretch is a bit self-indulgent - I'm throwing in references to Diane Duane and Infocom which are more badges to who I am (and was) than necessary information for the story. On the one hand, I adore those touches, and despise utilitarian authors who insist on stripping ancillary details and fillips from their stories (there is no difference between style and substance, darn it); on the other hand, it's stopping things too dead, throwing too many new faces into the mix, and adding to the air of disorganization that Nick Telepneff mentioned (another Nick? Oy!). (On the third hand: I have no idea [yet] how to, say, work Stu into the mix earlier or less intrusively - at the moment, at least. - Howie's not so important; I'm not so much worried about him, and his punchline will have to wait for another day and another story.)
And young Richard, who's at once doing a bit too much and not enough. In part because I wasn't certain what he was doing in the story, or how important he was. The logistics of beds and dorms are vital, and I think his relationship needs to be clearly established up front (it should be a single long-term relationship, I think; at least, I think it works best that way); I also think Nick should spend a night or two on a couch before he hooks up with Ellie - or, at least, alude to those nights now that he's sleeping in someone else's bed and pondering the Fourth Arm. I think that will handily fix the problem of Richard, and tie the diminuendo and crescendo together neatly, without losing the last scene (which I adore, precisely as it is a last scene; thanks, Bradley).
Also, I think maybe the church bells were a bit much. We'll see.
::
So. Thanks (again) to everyone, especially anyone whom I didn't call out specifically. I shall indeed be attempting to place this one somewhere - it started as a trifle, but I think (and with no small debt to the Fish Tank) it could maybe become something special. We'll see. Just don't hold your breath. I have two stories to finish already for Ruthie's (one of them being another quasi-semi-autobiographical piece, and rather terribly different than this one), and that essay on Amber I've been promising MichaelD (2500 words and counting already), and, well, a bunch of other stuff. I have a place I'm going with this one, though; I don't think there will be much of a fallow period, if any. And y'all'll be the first (second?) to know what happens to it.
But enough! I'm going to have trouble fitting this head through doors. Raise a glass with me, now: all hail the Fish Tank, and all who swim there! And three fuckin' cheers for Desdmona, the hostess with the mostest!
Viva la glub glub!
Best,
- n.
"When the writer does have a deep sense of the model that's controlling his or her work, however, and someone makes a criticism that points up where the model has, for a moment, not been followed, often the writer can hardly wait to make the suggested change. (I've seen writers sit down on the classroom floor to correct a manuscript before leaving the workshop.)"
hang on, I'll be with you in a minute:
http://www.asstr.org/~nickurfe/ift/
http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 16:36:35 -0600
On 29 Mar 2002 22:54:37 -0800, [email protected] (Nicholas Urfe) wrote:
Wasn't it Ellie he thought was air-headed? Or maybe it was everyone?
Oh, you probably still do. In my later college years I was in relationships which had some resemblance to Peter and Louise. Not a perfect match, but the threesome/foursome relationship at the end with the open "exploring" with other people definitely feels similar. I do think I was less condescending to those who weren't as enlightened as I :-)
It takes some work to forgive ourselves. It is easier perhaps to try to forget about our past mistakes, but that means forgetting about all of the good things which happeneed too.
Maybe that is the whole good point to doing the story?
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Jacques LeBlanc
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 30 Mar 2002 15:15:39 -0800
[email protected] (Nicholas Urfe) wrote in message news:
That depends on whether the reader has seen Kevin Smith's "Mallrats." There's a scene in which Brodie Bruce describes having the "fourth arm problem" with his ex-girlfriend, and when his rather literal-minded buddy T.C. Quint asks, "So?" he replies, "So? So it's a metaphor for our entire relationship!" Later,
Jacques
From: Conjugate
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 19:06:38 -0500
"Nicholas Urfe" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
You're welcome; thank you for posting the story.
Certainly, Kimber was sharp. I mean, Ellie was an airhead. See, I wrote:
"Also, if it had been me writing it, I would have had the viewpoint character get into a relationship with a woman who wouldn't be quite so, well, air-headed." I meant the relationship that the viewpoint character got into before the story started, not the one he was probing into later in the story. But that wasn't really a criticism; it was a half-hearted effort to find two things to improve.
Conjugate
From: oosh
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 01:37:20 GMT
[email protected] (Nicholas Urfe) wrote in news:[email protected]:
You know best. I appreciate that this is an autobiographical piece, and so perhaps these structural issues are rather impious - I think the truth deserves our respect however it is couched. But if I were to judge it as pure fiction, then I'd like to see a close relationship between the ending and the title, and your indecision about the title led me to think you might be undecided about the ending too. Really, I'm just nagging you into deciding what unifying thread you're going to go for, and suggesting that the ending should have a role in that unifying scheme.
But as a very honest and brilliantly observed reminiscence, this piece already has my complete trust and admiration.
O.
From: PleaseCain
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 26 Mar 2002 23:05:12 GMT
Frivolous, I know, but just this morning I saw "I Was a Male War Bride," and Cary Grant performed this great little bit about the extra hand while trying to sleep on a straight-backed wooden chair. He had all that physical training from an acrobatic troop in vaudeville, which Howard Hawks obviously appreciated, always turning him loose. (The missing French accent was quite another thing.) Cary Grant was something special.
Cain
From: Uther Pendragon
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: 2 Apr 2002 14:20:03 -0700
If you put your arm under her pillow and her head, then that hand has pretty good access to her breasts. (And, yes, the arm does tend to "go to sleep.") To quote Jeanette, "There is room for two in a twin bed (but not room for two and a wet spot.)"
Uther Pendragon FAQs http://www.nyx.net/~anon584c [email protected] fiqshn http://www.asstr.org/~Uther_Pendragon
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 19:42:26 -0600
On 2 Apr 2002 14:20:03 -0700, Uther Pendragon <[email protected]> wrote:
Yes, that is my solution for the fourth arm.
But what about the Sixth Arm thing, when you have three in a small bed?
(I think the solution is the same, for me at least. It just gets a lot harder to get comfy in a small bed with more people in it.)
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: oosh
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 12:19:49 GMT
Jeff Zephyr <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
Perhaps you should ask the goddess Kali (see http://www.exoticindiaart.com/kali.htm) - but be careful how you address her, or you could end up swinging from her belt ...
O.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Somewhere (Not here), by Nicholas Urfe
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 08:54:01 -0600
On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 12:19:49 GMT, oosh <[email protected]> wrote:
Hmm, I'm always polite to Kali. Why not, she's pretty nice ;-)
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
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