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From: Desdmona
Re: The Secret Admirer, A Fairy Tale, by Anoninsac
Date: 13 Aug 2001 20:41:26 GMT
Whenever you start a new project, you always come across bumps in the road. I don't think Anonisac knew that the submissions were going to go through me. I had already lined up a submission for week 2. After speaking to the other author, I've decided to post his story as well. So this week there will be 2 posted stories in "The Fish Tank." Let's see how it goes!
Now on to the show~
I am a product of my growing up years and so therefore, I love fairy tales. Nearly all of them. I think when you read this story, that's exactly what it will remind you of.
I think women everywhere love the idea of a secret admirer, unfortunately in today's society in stretches to stalker all too quickly in the mind. If you allow yourself to forget fairy tale and stick strictly to what is real, you might have trouble with a couple of things in this story. What woman in her right mind would agree to the requests made by the *hero* under these circumstances? But because it's regarded as fairy tale, maybe that's the way it is suppose to be. However, I think it would be an improvement to have a little more communication between the two before she so willingly agrees to his proposal.
I have to take umbrage with the phrase, "... stupid Disney version." You can't expect me to believe in this fairy tale and disregard those wonderful Disney versions of some of my favorite tales. Magic is magic whether in written form or animation.
And finally, this description,
She stood before me like a Goddess from a Greek temple; a statue of Venus. Her alabaster skin was pale soft marble come to life. Praxtiles never created an ideal of beauty to match this woman that stood before me
Something deep within my romantic soul absolutely loved this.
All in all, hot sex wrapped in a fairy tale. It's a winner!
From: Adrienne Brown
Re: The Secret Admirer, A Fairy Tale, by Anoninsac
Date: 14 Aug 2001 00:48:32 GMT
Something nice: I like the story concept and general line of its development.
The reader does need to suspend her disbelief. For example, only ONE gift of a dozen roses has been sent. There doesn't seem to be enough description of Natana as a modern day "flower child" to believe that the rest of her seduction could occur by E-mail. I mean, I'd need at least ... Well, chocolate would be a nice touch. :-)
Now I don't think Natana would like to hear that her Frog-Prince had described her breasts as "perky." I think it would turn her off, if perchance she reads ASS or ASSM! Same with "belly" as part of the description while she's sitting behind the receptionist desk. I could suggest "tummy," but would not insist. Question: Can the narrator see her well enough to see her bare midriff while he's in the waiting room? Another suspension of disbelief? Do we need that much description at this point? Or does she conveniently get up and stretch to reach for a file in a high bin? My SO likes to watch me stretch for things in the higher cabinets.
Further, I would find it difficult to believe that a doctor or dentist (or vet, since we are talking about the Frog-Prince) would allow an assistant to come to work with a uniform that exposed her midriff while she was seated.
Nevertheless, the story sparked a bit of interest here. Read it straight through, even given the points made above. It made me think that, if it already hasn't been done, it could be interesting to do the story from the POV of Beauty (Princess Natana) rather than that of Beast (the Frog-Prince). What fantasies and fears, doubts and desires would bombard her as she moved from roses through e-mail to blindfold? How would she get by the "don't talk to strangers" warning every little girl gets, not only to give her hand to her "prince" in the parking lot but also to slip between the sheets with him? What emotions as she removed the blindfold?
However, it would probably be difficult to introduce the RL Frog-Prince so that the reader could understand her reaction when the blindfold came off and yet not give away the entire story.
Hmmmm.
From: Katie McN
Re: The Secret Admirer, A Fairy Tale, by Anoninsac
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 02:44:21 GMT
You opened the story with a statement that challenged the idea that this could be a sex story. Since I knew it was, I was intrigued and wondered how we would go from
I was reading a three year old National Geographic about bats in Indonesia.
to the hard core. This was an effective start to your story and got me interested in reading the rest.
Large quantities of narrative summary, as you write in the first part of the story, can slow a story down to a brain deadening pace. You had no choice but to write narrative summary in this case since there was only one character who could be in the scenes where this occurred. You handled it very well and I never noticed that lack of dialog or input from other characters. Well done.
I thought the way you included the email thread between the two people was well done. You were able to build upon the problem resolution with a lot of tension and kept our interest as you got us thinking that maybe this might happen. (We knew in the back of our minds it would, but you wrote well enough so we could 'pretend' we didn't.) nice touch.
Your sex scene was reported nicely and I think the MF Rom people will be giving it two thumbs up or in some cases, something else up.
I have two suggestions for improvement. The first has to do with the last 25% of the story. Prior to this, you proved you could write narrative summary that didn't hurt. You also showed us how email interaction could be used in a story. When you did these things, I felt you were suggesting that you were going to show us even more ways to use offbeat fiction writing tools to enhance the story. I was a tiny bit disappointed when you got back into narrative summary again. You do it just find, but by the time we see it again, the subconscious is sending out signals saying, "This has been done." You might consider editing this section with more dialog and action.
There are a few places in the story where the writing was challenging the story for attention. While there may be a some people here who know who or what "Praxtiles" is, I suspect the number is very low. I did notice the name of the Athenian sculptor may be spelled incorrectly. In Texas we usually write it "Praxiteles." ;-) I suggest looking at things like this and asking yourself if it really is beneficial to the story or just the author showing off a treasure trove of knowledge?
This is a good story and worth reading for those who like MF Rom and particularly for guys who find Winter/Spring romances fun to read.
From: Poison Ivan
Re: The Secret Admirer, A Fairy Tale, by Anoninsac
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 02:05:37 -0400
There is a lot of good stuff in this story, and many sparkles of brilliance. For me, the main problem was the great parts created a very high expectation, and when the story fell back to merely "good" story-telling, I felt let down.
Let's see ... no repeats? Fortunately there are several good passages to choose from here. One of the nice stretches is the dialogue in the doctor office between Natana, The Frog-Prince, and the other assistant. "Why would anybody do that to their kid?" or "C'mon Natana, you gotta know." Very realistic.
I think the sex scene could use quite a bit of cleaning up. Mat mentioned that he wanted something a little more specific to the characters, but I think there are also a lot of repeated words (I think "cum" is used four times in one paragraph).
I like the email back and forth (doesn't everybody!), but I think I'd like to see a little more about the blindfold. Agreeing to meet a stranger blindfolded is a pretty big jump, but Natana seems more concerned about being able to look at him than in the danger involved. Maybe there needs to be some effort put forth to win trust? (I suppose the blindfold could even be talked about as part of some sex game, although I'm not sure that would work right for this story.)
Honestly, I wasn't quite sure what Katie meant by there being a lot of narrative summary. I assume she means using exposition instead of being "in scene", but I thought you did a good job keeping the story moving with action. There was only a paragraph here and there where you summarize, and it was all in the first third of the story. Perhaps she can clarify with some examples.
I think you have the beginnings of an exceptional story here, Anon.
From: Ray
Re: The Secret Admirer, A Fairy Tale, by Anoninsac
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 20:09:35 -0400
Two days before my next appointment I made a rash decision. I stopped by the flower shop and had them send a dozen red roses to Natana the day of my appointment. But I was still nervous and so I signed the card A Secret Admirer. I just didn't think she'd be all that impressed with me.
Fast-forward a month. On my next appointment the flowers were still the talk of the ladies. The office manager gave me the story. Natana still didn't know who sent them. It was driving everyone crazy trying to figure it out. Natana wanted to know who it was because she wanted to meet the guy. Hmm.
Corrective Suggestion #1:
I accept the Fairy Tales require a willing suspension of disbelief, but the above two paragraphs when combined stretch that to the breaking point. There is one, repeat *one* delivery of some flowers. And a month later and it is still all anyone can talk about.
*In a doctor's office?* I don't think so. A few more odd little things should have occured to capitvate a desireable *young* woman's attentions and fantasies. Also, in this same section, he had indicated a strong desire for redheads and proof that this was a *real* redhead. Yet, later in the story, the only references made were to her 'love triangle' with no mention of color or of his joy in finding her a 'natural' or not.
Corrective Suggestion #2:
Although not severe, and not really affecting the story, there were some minor POV shifts in the story, which gave me pause while reading it. Example:
Her nipple hardened even more. I licked and sucked and a small moan broke from her lips. It was her first sound and was torn from her depths by the rising torrent of her blood.
The story is primarily 1st person POV, which works well for it's telling, however, being in First, our protagonist can't really *know* that this 'was torn from the torrent . . .'. It a true first he could say, 'which it seemed was torn . . . from the torrent. A very slight shift, as I said and it didn't really affect the read or flow of the story beyond simply giving me the slightest pause.
On the Plus side, I'm biased here, as I too have always enjoyed a good fairy tale, so I did want to suspend the beliefs necessary. It is a good read. I especially enjoyed the posting of the photo of San Francisco and his added commentary of the 'proposed' evening.
No matter what anyone else says, I like the ending. The simple two word recognition, without any other descriptive terms being applied. Leaves it all up to the reader concerning her liking or not liking the situation.
Over all, I did enjoy the story, even recognizing it's other minor syntax errors and missing words.
From: Katie McN
Re: The Secret Admirer, A Fairy Tale, by Anoninsac
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 03:29:17 GMT
I'm not formally educated in writing and so I may be using definitions which are different from someone in academia. I'll try to explain what I mean by narrative summary. I'm going to use information from "Self Editing for Fiction Writers," by Browne and King in my examples. I recommend this book highly and it is available on Amazon.com.
The typical use of narrative summary is to allow the narrator to explain something repetitive or to present some information which is not worth including in an action scene. Here is an example,
"I wrote 7,000 words a day for two weeks and had the draft ready for the deadline."
The important information was that the person was able to work hard and get the job done. Hearing about sitting at the computer, editing, using writing tools and all the other things that could go into the creation of the book is unimportant and would probably leave the reader numb if a lot more information was included. This is a good use of narrative summary.
Narrative summary is also used to move a story along to a place where the author wants to start the action. In this case we read sentences that essentially say, "This happened and then this happened and then this happened."
Narrative summary can be used for exposition. For example we might read something like this,
"Suzi was the most popular girl in school, at least as far as the boys were concerned. Her long blonde hair curled down to her waist. Her tiny waist made her big tits look like a treasure trove. None of the boys cared that her only detectable skill was bending over. ... "
The same sort of thing could be done for other characters, the setting, back story and other story components. we see this sort of thing all the time in porn stories.
Almost everything in a story is summarized in a sense. We don't see dialog such as,
"Well, uh, I'm not sure what you want. I read the report, but don't understand some of this. It's not just the, uh, conclusion either, but this stuff in the second section and this graph. Oh, and besides I think we should, uh, well, wait until Suzi gets back from where ever and are you still coming over tonight?"
This is how people actually talk. Dialog in stories is far more focused and targeted and might show up looking like this:
"I've got some real problems with your report, Bob. Don't worry, we can clean it up when Suzi gets back tomorrow." Josh pushed the document aside as if it no longer mattered. "Hey, guy, are you and Sally still coming over tonight."
The author summarized the dialog. Extraneous commentary, pauses to think, asides and the typical stream of consciousness we see in everyday conversation don't usually appear in fiction. When they do, it is often difficult to read they story. OTOH we get a much better picture of the scene and the feelings of at least one of the characters starts to come through.
When we something like this
"The conversation was barely begun before I discovered that our host was more than simply a stranger to most of his guests. He was an enigma, a mystery. And this was a crowd that doted on mysteries. In the space of no more than five minutes, I heard several different people put forth their theories--all equally probable or preposterous--as to who and what he was. Each theory was argued with the kind of assurance that can only come from a lack of evidence, and it seemed that, for many of the guests, these arguments were the main reason to attend his parties."
we have an example of narrative summary. Nothing wrong with the paragraph technically and it provides enough information for the reader to know there is a party with some interesting characters who are concerned with an even more interesting character. We say, "That's nice." and wait for something to happen.
Here is the same paragraph written as a scene in a book some may recognize
'"I like to come," Lucille said. "I never care what I do, so I always have a good time. When I was here last, I tore my gown on a chair, and he asked me my name and address--within a week I got a package from Croirer's with a new evening gown in it.
'Did you keep it?" asked Jordan.
'"Sure I did. I was going to wear it tonight, but it was too big in the bust and had to be altered. It was gas blue with lavender beads. Two hundred and sixty-five dollars."
'"There's something funny about a fellow that'll do a thing like that," said the other girl eagerly. "He doesn't want any trouble with anybody."
'"Who doesn't?" I inquired.
'"Gatsby. So embody told me--"
'The two girls and Jordan leaned together confidentially.
'"Somebody told me they thought he killed a man."
'A thrill passed over all of us. The three Mr. Mumbles bent forward and listened eagerly.
'"I don't think it's so much _that_," argued Lucille skeptically, "it's more that he was a German spy during the war."
'One of the men nodded in confirmation.
'"I heard that from a man who knew all about him, grew up with him in Germany," he assured us positively.
'"On, no." said the first girl, "it couldn't be that, because he was in the American army during the war." As our credulity switched back to her, she leaned forward with enthusiasm. "You look at him sometimes when he thinks nobody's looking at him. I bet he killed a man."'
The second passage from F. Scott Fitzgerald's The Great Gatsby provides the reader with similar information as was given in the first example. The method of presenting the information is so much better the way Fitzgerald wrote it.
The Fish Tank story in question provides substantial back story, character information and story summarization using narrative summary in the first quarter of the story. It's done well enough so it is not troubling. Just as we see above, there is a great difference between the first paragraph which summarized what Fitzgerald said in the scene given above, it would be possible for the author of the story to develop the information he provides in one or more scenes. In this case, there is little reason to do this since the first part of the story was a set up for what was to follow.
I've been working on a collaboration that has been in process for more than a year. There are some technical problems with the story which could be cleaned up. There is a scene where one of my characters is humiliated in a way that I would not do myself that could be ignored or edited. However, the part that is stopping me from working on the story is the ending where the final scenes were provided in narrative summary form. The story has Claudette as one of the characters and several other characters from my collaborator and myself who are all noted for their action. Given this, having a story end with the narrator say, "This happened, this happened, this happened, ... " is not very pleasing. If the story can be salvaged a lot of work is required to provide the reader with a decent ending with action scenes instead of narrative summary that appears to be nothing more than just an attempt to end the story.
Anon Sacto used the narrative summary method to end his story. There are two problems with this approach. First, a large part of the story was already written in this form. The email interaction that comes after the first narrative summary section promised more from the author in language usage and technique. Getting back to narrative summary to end the story was a let down for me. Second, it is hardly ever a good idea to end a story using narrative summary. The reader is looking for an exciting scene where he or she can decide what happened and how everyone felt about it. The narrator gets in the way when summarizing the ending and trying to do this for the reader.
From: Anne747
Re: The Secret Admirer, A Fairy Tale, by Anoninsac
Date: 16 Aug 2001 02:28:08 GMT
Okay, brave soul...
I like the imagery with the Frog Prince and the Princess. It helps put you into a fantasy mood.
Most of my 'nit picks' are small, and I think most have been covered. Little things like - how does he know she's 5'9" if she's sitting down? And I've got to admit, as a woman, there's no way I'd agree to meet a guy I don't know, in a parking lot, with a blindfold.
I have a radical suggestion. Have you considered writing it from a switched POV? (ie. tell the story from both sides) You didn't identify the type of office, but if it's dental the trips could be three or four close together. Take the 'romancing' over a number of trips and let the reader see her side as she first guesses, and then confirms who the sender is. That would solve the 'no way' my mind keeps repeating.
Writing a story from more than one POV is not simple. Uther, or someone more into grammar and styles could probably make a better suggestion (I'm guessing but isn't there a 3rd person omniscient that might do the trick).
If she's under 21 you could also go the 'dear diary' type of thing, although that almost immediately makes me think teenager. (Although I kept a journal until just after I left college - they will be auctioned off to the highest bidder if I'm ever completely broke. They may not be particularly erotic, but ideas, characters and brief descriptions of events....)
From: PleaseCain
Re: The Secret Admirer, A Fairy Tale, by Anoninsac
Date: 16 Aug 2001 05:47:37 GMT
I like your writing, Anoninsac. The voice has plenty of personality, and you do a great job of evoking the charm, excitement and awkwardness of new romance: I have thought all of those thoughts myself! Stirring empathy in the reader is one of the most important things a writer accomplishes.
My suggested improvement would be to reappraise the way by which you describe sex in your story, something all writers of sex stories must do, obviously -- I would suggest you focus on what portrayal, what spin, what variety, what connotation of sex you are conveying and to dress up your prose accordingly.
Let me explain. The sexual scene in your story stretches a good length, which is probably apt because it is a sex story after all, but the longer the sex scene, the longer you must sustain the tension and the more likely things begin to break down:
-- first I did this, then she did that, then I did this, and she countered with that, begins to sound like play-by-play announcing,
-- sentences tend to become homogeneous, because how many tricks can you pull out of a bag? There are only long and short sentences. I happen to believe in just less sentences. Go for the kill.
-- same thing with punctuation, there are only so many ways to juke and shake the reader before the rhythm acquires a numbing sameness. A string of sentences like "As her passion built I concentrated on her clitoris sucking it into my mouth and massaging it with my lips" and "We clutched at each other kissing gently" convey the necessary intelligence and move the pieces to the next square on the narrative board, but tighter and more varied sentences and punctuation can convey even more punch, sustaining reader interest,
-- long sexual descriptions can also force you into a corner with word choice too, because you don't want to be repetitious and yet, again, there are so many words to go around before you are perpetrating such awful deeds as rutting and copulating, etc. You are not guilty of such egregious offenses, but for example, "combined spendings" hints in that direction.
I don't know if I've made my points clearly enough, but in essence I'm saying that we all understand the basic mechanics of the bedroom, as well as the florid synonyms and adjectives to dress them up, so I would urge anyone writing sex stories to first consider what it is they are trying to say.
You can make a lifelong impression on someone using only a handful of words. I remember one sentence I read when I was 11, from Ian Fleming's "The Spy Who Loved Me," that contains not a single "dirty" word: "Then he had me take it off to see how beautiful I really was." In the context, it was dynamite. Then, I open a book of published capital-E Erotica by some of these acclaimed sex writers with their chapter-length epic sessions and say "Oh God, it's S&M again" and flip, flip, flip, 15 pages later there is sperm all over the ceiling and ouch her poor nipplesies and she has orgasmed in 12 different words.
Build up, yes, but then go in after them, straight for the jugular. They want you to do it, the readers do. Think of how the sex, the exchange or the relationship affects the characters, and that is how to portray the bodily functions. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule. This story is a romance, and may justify a long and exquisite sexual communion. I also like Katie McN's point about 'showing, not telling' but don't fairy tales usually end with "and they lived happily ever after"?
From: Mat Twassel
Re: The Secret Admirer, A Fairy Tale, by Anoninsac
Date: 16 Aug 2001 14:43:55 GMT
I agree with PleaseCain. One of the things I sometimes struggle with is how much sex to put in a sex story. The conventional adage is "less is more." Back when I was first learning about sex, just a single sex word was thunderously exciting. I spent time in study hall in high school looking through my dictionary for sex words. Something as innocent as labia was enough to give me an erection. In fiction it was the same way: We read 1984, and the single sentence with the words "made love" in it was the most erotic prose I'd ever encountered.
As I grew up I discovered stronger passages, pornography which went on for pages, and in a way the glut was wonderful: I wouldn't have wanted one juicy word left out. But as Goldwater said, Sex at the expense of Story is no Virtue. I'm not really advocating restraint; I'm arguing for care: Judge the importance and effect of every scene, every sentence, every word. If the sex adds only sex to the story, something is amiss.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: The Secret Admirer, A Fairy Tale, by Anoninsac
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 12:48:00 -0600
For the first rule, I liked the story idea. The secret admirer thing can be a lot of fun, in theory, if things work out well.
We don't know quite enough about *why* the admirer felt he had to keep the situation secret, nor quite enough about why, and how, Natana reacted to the attention as she did. I feel a desire for a few more details about each in that area, some private thoughts, maybe, even with its 1st person viewpoint, we could see a 3rd person take on Natana's conversations and thoughts, or perhaps a dialog with another person where she expressed her interest directly to someone *other* than her admirer.
Some places had less than smooth grammar and structure. Fixable in a rewrite, but for the most part -- I didn't look too hard for obvious ones -- not just a matter of adding punctuation. I have a tendency to write out sentences with clauses in the order I think them in, whereas in speech and careful writing I would change the order to make them more comprehensible. If pressed, I might dig up some examples.
I'd like to know more about how the admirer feels about the girl. We know he lusts after her, for sure. But even though we know that, we don't see enough about *what* he is imagining with her. Lust alone won't cut it -- something about this girl makes his desire very strong, and there is also something almost as well hidden which makes him feel he can't simply approach her for a date, or even a longer friendly conversation which might lead to a date.
We know he is older, but unless he is over 60 or so, it is hard to say that a given 18-something sort might not appreciate the attention. OTOH, if he had just gone for it, and she'd said yes or no, the whole secret admirer thing would have been messed up. Still, it might be nice to know *why* he felt so unacceptable in person. Or at least, have him dwell more on that reaction.
Natana went on a date which would include sex, and wanted sex with her anonymous lover. While *not* unreasonable, I did find it odd that they didn't talk more once it got to the action. I figure that *I* certainly would have. For that matter, I'd want to learn more about the girl I was obsessed with, things that hadn't come up before we got together in person. The emails didn't get into personal background details, and yet, that seems like a definite thing to ask about. Sure, no pics -- but why not a few more inquiries, or even revelations? What is Natana's desire in this situation? Why is she so willing to get into a sexual relationship where she may never know who her lover is, and to trust him so easily?
My answer. "Have you ever read Beauty and the Beast? Not the stupid Disney version. The original story. The Beast had to stay hidden from the Beauty. Revealing himself would have led to tragic consequences for the Beauty. And he loved her too much to risk her. Sometimes it is best that way."
Her response. "You must think I'm pretty shallow. Is it looks? You seem a good person. Why would I care about how you look? I think I should be insulted."
Shouldn't she ask more about the fairy tale, or make some more comment on it? The beast had problems with more than just looks, after all. As well, I don't think that it should be taken as a given that someone knows the written fairy tale, especially for an 18-something. Disney movies are a stronger part of our popular culture, overwhelming the literary side.
The invitation: "No. I don't think you are shallow. And no, it isn't looks. But that's the only clue I can give you. I hope you won't judge me harshly. Perhaps we can converse this way."
OK, it isn't looks, and it isn't *exactly* age. Age shows in skin tone and other things. Now, I understand the idea of *not* giving the thing away, but the intensity of the need to keep it secret is hard to accept. It seems, somehow, pathetic or pathological. Maybe there is something there, a feeling on his part which does need to be exposed, if not the reason for it. Right around this point in the tale, I'd like more of his throughts and reaction to the new situation, not just the email conversation.
Given that there is time between the events, the reaction and thoughts would let us know more about why he feels as he does, and perhaps what he imagines this girl will think when he goes ahead.
The sex scenes also need more thoughts, and perhaps conversation. Reading it made me wonder why neither one spoke at all. That can certainly happen -- the situation is good for making it hard to converse -- but I'd expect that they'd think about things, and I'd find it odd that the girl didn't try to ask more questions, or try to find out more overtly what she had got herself into.
As a fairy tale, BTW, it vaguely reminds me of Cupid's story, where he made love in the dark rather than reveal himself to his lover.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: The Secret Admirer, A Fairy Tale, by Anoninsac
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 13:17:13 -0600
The reader does need to suspend her disbelief. For example, only ONE gift of a dozen roses has been sent. There doesn't seem to be enough description of Natana as a modern day "flower child" to believe that the rest of her seduction could occur by E-mail. I mean, I'd need at least ... Well, chocolate would be a nice touch. :-)
I thought there were more gifts. But yes, chocolate *would* be nice. Or something that she really liked. For that matter, talking with her after the first time or two would give him a chance to learn what things she'd really like. For that matter, he could (and probably should have) done a bit more to investigate, asking the doctor or others around for details. "Just curious, you know?" Like, what are her life goals, what does she like, etc.?
he's in the waiting room? Another suspension of disbelief? Do we need that much description at this point? Or does she conveniently get up and stretch to reach for a file in a high bin? My SO likes to watch me stretch for things in the higher cabinets.
Or it is an open enough desk to let him see? I agree, knowing a bit more about it can be good. I think seeing her stand would explain it more.
Further, I would find it difficult to believe that a doctor or dentist (or vet, since we are talking about the Frog-Prince) would allow an assistant to come to work with a uniform that exposed her midriff while she was seated.
I think it depends on the size of the place and environment; it can fit in some locations. Still, while seated behind a desk it is not something I'd expect to see easily.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: The Secret Admirer, A Fairy Tale, by Anoninsac
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 13:37:19 -0600
I agree with PleaseCain. One of the things I sometimes struggle with is how much sex to put in a sex story. The conventional adage is "less is more." Back when I was first learning about sex, just a single sex word was thunderously exciting. I spent time in study hall in high school looking through my dictionary for sex words. Something as innocent as labia was enough to give me an erection. In fiction it was the same way: We read 1984, and the single sentence with the words "made love" in it was the most erotic prose I'd ever encountered.
I like longer scenes, but you have to keep the tempo up in them. If it is nothing but sex and more sex, with no dialog, no direct observations, nothing but simple actions, it loses our attention. Mine, at least -- some of my least favorite kinds of stories are ones with non-stop sex, even though the individual scenes may be quite hot.
Now, when we have a long sex scene in real life, a lot goes on. There are limits to just how long I'll go on without talking, and especially without thinking about the situation, let alone changing positions, taking a break, enjoying our reactions. If you leave out too much of that, it turns into a poor porn movie version of sex -- the actors go through the motions, but don't show any passion for their work. This is most especially true for romantic sex, but I think that almost *every* first time with a new lover situation involves a huge amount of anticipation, "previewing", imagination, and reaction -- as well as often a lot of conversation.
When the conversation is absent, you need to have observations and thoughts. Something to fill the void among the actions.
As I grew up I discovered stronger passages, pornography which went on for pages, and in a way the glut was wonderful: I wouldn't have wanted one juicy word left out. But as Goldwater said, Sex at the expense of Story is no Virtue. I'm not really advocating restraint; I'm arguing for care: Judge the importance and effect of every scene, every sentence, every word. If the sex adds only sex to the story, something is amiss.
I think it is wanting more to the story than the sex which makes the excessive sex seem too much. It isn't the amount of it, but the lack of other elements to flesh it out. Sex, even in a purely lusty encounter, involves much more than just simple physical contact and pleasure.
From: Nick
Re: The Secret Admirer, A Fairy Tale, by Anoninsac
Date: 16 Aug 2001 15:26:48 -0700
What do you mean? It's all nice!
Trouble is, although I read this story before anyone else had a chance to comment, I couldnt get my comments in fast enough to avoid breaking the second rule - no repetitions.
Also, in the light of the quality of the comments already sent I don't have that much to add. But Des threatened us with e-mail if we didnt say something!
Likes 1) I know Mat Twassel has already said nice hook, but I think I can legitimately expand that without breaking the rules.
My answer. "Have you ever read Beauty and the Beast? Not the stupid Disney version. The original story. The Beast had to stay hidden from the Beauty. Revealing himself would have led to tragic consequences for the Beauty. And he loved her too much to risk her. Sometimes it is best that way."
That added a bit more promise than the standard 'Oh, I'm too ugly and you'l run away' scenario. The implication was that she would suffer as a reult of seeing him. Not only that, but by including a reference to the 'original' tale, you added intrigue, and I wanted to see how you used this to undepin the story.
This leads me to:
Development 1) You didn't follow through. The idea that something bad would happen to her if she saw him was just dispensed with. I think you could have made something by developing a sense of angst about what would happen to her when she saw him, rather than what hapened to him.
Likes 2) Your language during the sex scene was not explicit. It would really have ruined a fairy tale to have seen constant references to 'cocks and cunts' in the middle of it. You did start to fall apart in this resect towards the end, but in all you didnt overdo it. However, as Matt said I did find the scene rather ordinary. I thought that was just me, but obviously not.
Development 2) There was an awful line in there, but I can't find it. Sorry.
From: Anoninsac
Re: The Secret Admirer, A Fairy Tale, by Anoninsac
Date: 17 Aug 2001 08:33:58 -0700
Thanks to everybody for your comments. A lot of them echo my own thoughts on the story and why I'm ambivalent.
First, many noted that it needed more to explain how a young woman is willing to go with this guy, and why he has to stay hidden in the first place. Heck, I don't know... lol I got the idea for the story sitting in the reception room and the girl looked just like the girl in the story. The first couple paragraphs are real. Later, the idea came to me about a secret admirer and got combined with the earlier real incident.
I knew going in that there were some 'reality' issues. Why the heck would a girl ever go off with a guy like this? What is his secret? So I took it as a challenge to write the story. I knew reconciling 'reality' with the bones of the story would be the challenge. I tried to use the 'fairy tale' concept to cover these problems. Let's face it, stuff happens in fairy tales that never could in the real world.
Like theatre, for this to work I need the reader to suspend disbelief. I like some of your suggestions and will mull them over to see if I can make them work for me. So, thanks to all.
From: Uther Pendragon
Re: The Secret Admirer, A Fairy Tale, by Anoninsac
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 06:49:01 GMT
I once knew a math teacher who offered his students homework choices from the book's problem sets. Your grade might be 7/10 if you chose a hard problem and got it mostly right, or 4/4 if you chose an easy problem and did it precisely right.
Well, I'd give Anon 9/12.
That is to say (First good thing) he really chose a fascinating challenge.
(Second good thing) He carried me almost with him until nearly the end.
First thing which needs improvement:
"I will not stop you, I merely asked," I said quietly.
"No, I have given myself to you. I need to know who you are."
She raised the blindfold from her eyes. She blinked a few times as her eyes adjusted to the light in the room and then they focused. "It's you!?!"
This *ain't* the end to this story. First of all, we don't know what that means -- who is the patient to her? And Anon could have told us earlier in the story. But we need to have Natana finish with "Please take me back to my car," or "You didn't need the blindfold," or SOMETHING.
Second suggestion:
I think the idea of sex with a blindfolded woman needs to be developed. What does he do to excite her *mentally*? What does he do to reassure her.
My first thought is talking throughout this process. "You can't see me, and you're not missing anything. But what beauty you reveal to my eyes. Those breasts are the most enticing sight, let me kiss them." But then Uther's first solution to any problem is talk.
From: OlgaKnagina
Re: The Secret Admirer, A Fairy Tale, by Anoninsac
Date: 19 Aug 2001 02:28:55 GMT
I'm very sorry, but I must disagree with Uther on one point.
This *ain't* the end to this story. First of all, we don't know what that means -- who is the patient to her? And Anon could have told us earlier in the story. But we need to have Natana finish with "Please take me back to my car," or "You didn't need the blindfold," or SOMETHING.
I know I'm a bit weird, and perhaps it's because I grew up with radio (rather than TV), but I find Anon's a satisfactory ending. It allows the reader to make her own interpretation of why Natana says, "It's you!?!"
OK
From: Poison Ivan
Re: The Secret Admirer, A Fairy Tale, by Anoninsac
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 12:01:57 -0400
I thought you were on the verge of getting away with it, too. I think the realism of the story works against you here. A couple random ideas, which may not work, but what the heck:
(1) Use fairy tale language ("Once upon a time, in a land far, far away ...") or
(2) follow the Beauty and the Beast plot a lot more closely, to the point where there can be no doubt that you're tracking a particular fairy tale. In the original Beauty and the Beast, the courtship is most of the story. Mix up the online chat with gifts lifted from the fairy tale: poetry, music, flowers, jewelry. In the original fairy tale, Beauty likes to read, and the Beast has a big library. Could you play up something like that?
What about titling the story "Beauty and the Beast"? I suppose if you expanded the wooing part of the story, you wouldn't need to beat the reader over the head with an over-obvious title, but it's a possibility.
I think Jeff made a great point about them talking during the sex scene. I think this would play into your strengths, too - you have a great ear for dialogue.
We had a good couple stories this week, I think.
From: Mat Twassel
Re: The Secret Admirer, A Fairy Tale, by Anoninsac
Date: 19 Aug 2001 16:29:47 GMT
After all the other stuff is fixed, what it comes down to is the ending. Is it a cheat? Is it delicious? I can't quite make up my mind, which probably means it's okay as it is. I think that the more the other stuff is fixed up, the less question about the ending. Hm, am I contradicting my opening sentence?
--Mat Twassel
PS I think there's a risk in making it too fairy tale like. That might work well. But part of the charm of the story as is is that it is grounded in reality--in the here and now. We want these to be real people. If it's just fantasy, then the attitude "this isn't real, it doesn't matter," creeps in.
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From: Mat Twassel
Re: The Secret Admirer, A Fairy Tale, by Anoninsac
Date: 13 Aug 2001 20:21:12 GMT
things to work on:
1. Lots of little grammar, syntax, and other simple slips, for example:
or: in the opening scene if he's looking up at her seated, how are some of the details (an inch of belly) knowable, how is she "moving"?
In short: needs some basic editing.
2. The sex scene is sort of ordinary. Not ordinary sex but an ordinary description. Even if the sex itself turned out ordinary or disappointing (to the participants), I was hoping for something other than the usual ASSM sex prose. I think I would not have minded had the graphics been omitted and the coupling summarized, but in any event, ideally we would have learned more about this couple. I wanted to know them. In keeping one promise (delivering a sex scene) the story breaks another (completing a relationship).
things that worked:
1. It's a good hook.
2. I enjoyed the flow throughout the set up, the back and forth. Nice job establishing and maintaining tension. It's what keeps me reading. I would have liked to see some of this extend throughout the lovemaking, have that chemistry of their email connection maintained.
Interesting blend of fantasy with "reality." Interesting ending. I like the spice of it. Yes, I feel a bit cheated, but the flavor is there, so I'm not upset about it.
Thanks for the story. I enjoyed it.