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From: Altan
Re: Promise, by Freya More
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 21:38:02 GMT
On Mon, 11 Nov 2002 09:04:16 -0500, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote:
The following story is from a first time author. She had some real doubts about posting this story, but I promised her we could be a gentle group when it was absolutely necessary. It's a complete story at 5,617 words. A story about two people trying to start over in life and using the internet as a beginning mark. FishTank guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
3) Try not to repeat!
Hi Freya, I'm glad you decided to post this story in the FishTank. Once I started, I couldn't stop reading. It is, in one word, beautiful!
Positives are easy here. I already said the story as a whole is just beautiful. Second, I never thought I would care for a "blow-by-blow" description of a romantic evening. But you managed to keep it interesting. Your tale didn't get boring for a single moment.
It is because of the suggestions for improvement that I'm rushing to comment, since it will be difficult to find something original after a few of the people here have commented.
One thing I wondered about is the appearance of his friends at their dinner. That seemed totally out of place at a moment like this. Both he and his friends should have known better. You may have added that to add the secret touching or something like that, but maybe it might have been better to do that in front of the waiter (or waitress - which would work better?)
Another thing that jarred me slightly was the timeline. Here we are well inside the story, they have danced, they had this whole episode with friends coming over - and they haven't even ordered their appetizers. I thought they were well into their meal by then. Maybe this is just because of the kind of restaurants where I've been ...
Anyway, keep up the good work. You're showing a lot of "promise" (stupid pun intended :-) ).
A.
http://www.asstr.org/~altan/
From: Conjugate
Re: Promise, by Freya More
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 22:54:15 -0700
Very nice, pleasant atmosphere. I liked it.
Now, first of all, some small criticisms. You might read over it again, more slowly, or get an editor. Just a few small errors, but they distract from the flow of the story.
For instance,
a causal, summer dress. Her friends teased her that she dressed
That's a "casual" dress. It's things like this, that no spell-checker can reliably find, that need catching. There are others; the cologne he wears ought to be Polo (capitalized), for instance, and "but only they new the secret cause ..." needs a "k" in front of the "new."
Also, it seemed to me that your sentences verged slightly on the short and choppy side. I'm not quite sure what to do about this, and I can't make any useful suggestions without trying to rewrite your story, which I wouldn't want to do. This is your story, in your voice. It's a very pleasant story, and I enjoyed it a great deal, especially the descriptions of her sensations.
I think you will improve to be quite a good writer, if we are lucky enough that you keep at it. Thank you for sharing your story.
Conjugate
From: Tesseract
Re: Promise, by Freya More
Date: 12 Nov 2002 01:48:10 -0800
"Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...
The following story is from a first time author. She had some real doubts about posting this story, but I promised her we could be a gentle group when it was absolutely necessary.
Hey, we're always pussy cats, aren't we?
****************************************** Promise (MF slow rom)
By Freya More [email protected]
This may be the first time you are exposing yourself here but I can't believe this is the first story of this type you've written. It's good. It sets a slow, sensual mood. Someone mentioned the sentences have a repetitive form and style. I think this helps create the hypnotic, almost dreamlike, effect that I like so much.
I asked myself if you should have used more dialogue, rather than indirect quotes, and answered that if you are a very, very good writer you could get the same effect with proper dialogue, but if you are merely a good writer you would lose the effect.
I liked the notes. It could be considered a continuation of their internet relationship, which for most people is written. It also reminded me of a train trip from Paris to Bordeaux (student class) where I learned my written French was much better than my spoken French. Unfortunately she was on her way to see her fiance.
A minor point is
He had the chance to discover her
passion as well, so looking conservative was sort of a tease, hiding her sensuality that lie just beneath the surface.
I think that should be "lies". Or should it be past tense: "lay"?
A bigger one is that most of the story is from her point of view, but at the very end we have a few paragraphs from his point of view. This is a bit jarring. It adds to the story to get his feelings but just one instance of his POV doesn't fit. Maybe he could tell her why he turned around instead.
I'm going to repeat this one:
Anyway, keep up the good work. You're showing a lot of
"promise" (stupid pun intended :-) ).
[hope you don't mind, Altan]
Tesseract - prrrr
From: [email protected]
Re: Promise, by Freya More
Date: 12 Nov 2002 05:11:05 -0800
What I liked most about this story was the very personal, emotional nudity, very honest and open. I kept wanting to read faster, to get it all in, but I also wanted to read very slowly to savor the feelings expressed.
I"m going to agree with Conjugate's comments, but for one. The short sentences had a nice cadence, a pleasant flow for me, and a sensous texture. I think it contributed to expressing the progatanist's nervousness. I don't think the story would suffer from a tiny bit of tightening, though. In a few places, there are some words that aren't needed, e.g., "She turned to the bar, searching every face."
The POV shift, from her to him, caused a small twitch, but was, oddly, tolerable. I wonder if you might have him reveal his thoughts and feelings to her after he returns, thereby avoiding the shift. I am definitely not suggesting a rewrite. Call that one a side comment. Although, maybe, a line break might ...
...looked, the way he smelled, and the way he felt."
"He winced at the bright headlights coming towards him."
In the first paragraph, there is a line that jarred me. It feels to me like she made a sudden transition, and therefor feels suspect.
Here's a suggestion:
"She had discovered through this online relationship that she had a very passionate nature."
"She had discovered through this online relationship that she was able to set free her very passionate nature again."
It is your movie playing in your head. Go back and replay that scene, get us a little closer to the bone.
If this is your first, I am definitely eager for your second, your tenth. It's a lovely story. I'll return to it many times. Thank you very much for sharing, as you not only entertained, but also illuminated.
Cal
From: john
Re: Promise, by Freya More
Date: 12 Nov 2002 10:17:18 -0800
a first time author
Perhaps the first time Freva has shared with us, please not her first attempt at writing. "Promise" shows great maturity in both the language and the pace of things. Her characters have substance; she's touched on, perhaps not mastered yet, but flirted with some rather complex ideas dressed up in very sexy duds.
The only suggestion I would make is very general. If she pretends to be a novice, then let me, behind the mask of cyberspace, pretend to be sagacious, even older than I am, and not just parroting the advice of real writers. I think you need a reader. Not a thousand, just one that you can talk to comfortably, intimately. One that you respect. Sometimes I feel you explain too much, repeat, coddle, yea verily, talk down to us. Less is often more. You'd have more impact, for me, if this was half as long and just as pregnant with your images and passion.
There's much to praise. That the chatters had to write their courtship out, even in each other's presence, is one of the most original ideas I've encountered here. It might have been even better to have them write their final promises on a motel memo pad or a pillowcase. Or start to write them, then realize their love is something different. It could be central to your plot - to commit or not - because an essence of internet romance is lack of commitment, also perhaps that makes it so alluring.
Sometimes first time authors win the prize. One won a Governor General's in Canada today. Good luck, Freya. You won't need luck; you possess great skill. S
John
From: Bradley Stoke
Re: Promise, by Freya More
Date: 12 Nov 2002 11:47:28 -0800
Freya
A very convincing account of a first date resulting from an on-line romance. Like the romance itself, the account was awkward, as I guess it has to be. There is so much that could go wrong. And so complicated by the fact that the partners already know each other and at the same time don't. I must admit it would frighten me to meet anyone with whom I've corresponded on the Internet. Isn't it so much better to leave it as it is? Well, maybe not.
I'm not sure about sticking to the game plan for reviewing this story. There are strengths and weaknesses, but for a first time writer it wasn't at all bad. The story had structure, the setting was convincing and I had no difficulty in visualising either of the two unnamed protagonists.
My criticisms aren't severe, but are things that can easily be corrected by practice. I felt that the narrative style was too much like an account. Some more dialogue and perhaps focus on specific external events, rather than a sequence of events might have made the story flow better. I also felt that the switch from the woman's to the man's point of view could have been handled better near the end. It was slightly confusing. It may be worth asking why a change of point of view was felt necessary at all. It's not always that easy to switch from the inside of one head to another. (Giving the characters names might help). There were one or two silly typos (like "causal" for "casual"), but we all do that.
I think you are very brave to submit your story to the Fish Tank. Braver than me, for instance. But it's a useful process to read criticisms from people with very different ideas as to what sex fiction should be like. Your story is pretty much on the romantic end of the spectrum, and like a lot of "rom" stories is similarly self-conscious and almost embarrassed about sex. In fact, although this is sex fiction, it's not that easy writing sex scenes. Although I've written loads of them now, I still feel quite embarrassed about the whole business. After all, it is something quite private. And then we flaunt our sexual fantasies on the Internet for anyone to read! For me, the most erotic part of your story is the exchange of napkins in the bar. It was almost a disappointment when the couple got down to business. But sex scenes, like everything else, takes practice and you did pretty well overall.
Well done. I hope to read more of your stories,
Bradley Stoke
http://www.asstr.org/~Bradley_Stoke
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Promise, by Freya More
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:39:03 -0600
Quick positives:
I loved the flow of the romance, the online friendship turning into real life dating. The whole scene was nicely done. I did like the awkward ending, the indecision about getting closer at the end. The turn-around wasn't foreshadowed strongly, something which would be tempting for a lot of writers.
I've never tried to turn online flirtation into a date. Born at the wrong time I guess :-) But I could see it going so strangely, compared to a pure blind date or even a casual date between coworkers or such. The flirting with napkin notes is a neat idea. Doing a couple of them seems normal, an ordinary thing to think about doing. After all, we write our requests for songs (and other things) for the DJ/band on napkins, don't we? The whole conversation done with them while others watched, that was inspired.
The sex was nicely done, and that isn't so easy in a romantic story. It is tempting to make the sex less graphic to fit into the loving theme. The end, with its promise, seems the highlight of the entire date. A nice relationship depends on trusting in certain things, and a promise is a nice way to establish that trust.
The direct dialog, the actual spoken conversation, is very minimal. I'm not sure if it should be increased or not, but the bulk of the dialog is in the napkin messages, not the conversation everyone hears. We know what they talk about.
Maybe we need to hear just a little bit, especially her reactions to the conversation as it happens?
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: PleaseCain
Re: Promise, by Freya More
Date: 14 Nov 2002 20:27:18 GMT
I liked reading the woman's thoughts throughout the evening: that's always of interest to men. Good writing, although further varying the structure and length of sentences might make the prose even more interesting - not a criticism, just something to try. There were a couple of phrases, like arguing about teams or telling drinking stories, that struck me as more overview than storytelling, as telling instead of showing.
This is one of those hot stories that makes me miss the thrills (and overlook the pitfalls) of dating. Thanks for trusting us with it.
Cain
From: Desdmona
Re: Promise, by Freya More
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 09:50:49 -0500
Promise
(MF slow rom)
By Freya More [email protected]
Freya~
I'm struck by how you've shown us such depth of the woman without us ever knowing her name. Her vulnerability jumps off the page. Her hesitancy balanced with her wanting in every move is superb. She's a real woman with fears and needs and insecurities. I think because of this, I sort of miss knowing as much about him. We see glimpses of his "realness" but I wonder if you couldn't show us a bit more. Someone else has already mentioned the POV issue, but I'd like to second it. You might be able to add a couple of shifts to his POV throughout the story, so that when we do shift to him in the car at the end, it's not so abrupt. You have single sentences here and there where you are actually in his POV. Such as:
"He read the edginess in her gesture. It pleased him."
Maybe at moments like this, you could add a bit more about how he's feeling or what he thinks about her. Just for balance in the story.
There's a sweet seductiveness in this story that really relates to online courtships. It's a different sort of relationship that gets to know a person mentally or spiritually, before you get to know him physically. You've done a great job of capturing this high-tech phenomenon. This one statement that sums it all is very affecting:
"He led her outside, leaving their notes on the table. More words replaced by reality."
I'm torn at times, wishing there was more actual dialogue, rather than a telling of what's being said, but can't help but wonder, if by doing this, you would change the whole mood of the story. It might be something you could try and see how it goes.
The only other suggestion I would make at this time is to try and find those places in the story where you tend to use the last sentence of a paragraph to sum up all that the paragraph has already said. Example:
"His hand touched her thigh under the table. The warmth of it penetrated the thin, cotton material covering her leg. He squeezed the muscle and then left his hand there. She tried to remain calm, even though it drove her wild. He was teasing her and she liked it."
(This might not be the best example, but I think you'll understand what I mean.) We can tell by the action that he's teasing her, and we know she likes it by the statement "drove her wild." Sometimes it's best to let the reader surmise things.
All in all, this is a wonderful first story. It reads as a real event in your life. Whether it is or not doesn't really matter. Just the fact that it feels real is a tribute to the truthfulness of the woman.
Thank you, so much, Freya. I know you hesitated about putting this story in the FishTank, but I hope you'll find the experience was worth the "heebie-jeebies!"
Des
PS. The cocktail napkin "chatting" was fantastic!
From: Freya More
Re: Promise, by Freya More
Date: 17 Nov 2002 22:39:10 GMT
hi everybody in the fish tank!
thank you very much for the nice things you had to say about my story. you made my week.
everyone liked the napkin notes. that part is a true story that really happened to me. this whole story is semi-autobiographical. if it seems real it's because it mostly is real.
altan, i think i need to keep his friends intruding on the couple at the restaurant. i need the friends or they don't have a good excuse to pass napkin notes. and it does really happen, because it happened to me! :)
i will need to work on fixing my sentences so they aren't so choppy. my first draft was even worse, if you can believe it! :) i'm not good at dialogue. every time i try to make people say something, it comes out sounding like spock talking.
the point of view shift to him is a mistake by me. the first draft was twice as long and had more sex in the second half. more of the story is in his point of view in the second half. but the second half was too messed up to save and i threw it all away. i forgot to take out the part from his point of view. but maybe i can add more of his point of view. i will think about it.
i would like to give a special warm thanks to des. she not only put my story in the fish tank, but she helped me a lot with the first draft of this story. my first draft was pretty bad and she helped me fix it up. she insisted on capitalization and paragraphs. :) i wouldn't have done this without des's encouragement.
and thank you, mat, altan, conjugate, tesseract, cd riter, john (a special thanks for the x-tra email stuff), bradley, jeff, and cain. you gave me a lot to think about.
freya
if we couldn't laugh, we would all go insane.
From: Uther Pendragon
Re: Promise, by Freya More
Date: 19 Nov 2002 23:14:27 -0700
1) 2 positive comments
Although I wouldn't have read a cyber-friends-meet-for-real story outside the fishtank, I was glad I read this one.
The hesitations in the middle make the resolution much sexier.
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
They seemed to have gone awfully far in the near-public atmosphere of the bar for him to have backed off afterwards, although the phone call from her son might explain it.
She giggled in triumph, knowing the "I want to use my hand to guide you into me" was enough to shake his control.
Occasionally, the action was so complicated that I got a little lost.
She shook her head, no. She wanted him. She wanted this. And she moved her arms away from the buttons on her shirt. When he got to the last one, he left the shirt hanging open but didn't take it off.
I'd prefer, " ... She dropped her arms, and he started unbuttoning the shirt."
BTW, When women wear men's dress shirts for bedclothes, I would think that those would be so loose that they would go off and on without bothering with the buttons.
Uther Pendragon FAQs http://www.nyx.net/~anon584c [email protected] fiqshn http://www.asstr.org/~Uther_Pendragon
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From: Mat Twassel
Re: Promise, by Freya More
Date: 11 Nov 2002 20:24:40 GMT
The notes work well. The first one is the best, the strongest, but it's a thoroughly neat idea - telling the story through a series of cocktail napkin notes.
Although having so many sentences of the same form and style has a certain power, variety might be more effective.
Back to those notes: I think it might be interesting to limit the story even more, to trim away almost everything but the notes and whatever minimal information is necessary to support them. Of course everyone has a his own idea of minimal.
- Mat
Mat's Erotic Calendar at http://calendar.atEros.com