Fish Tank Story Comments - The Pirate Queen

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From: Mat Twassel
Re: The Pirate Queen, by Nick
Date: 03 Sep 2001 16:20:38 GMT

Main strengths: Plotting. Pace. Ability to show the characters. They seem real. The dialogue is generally excellent, illuminating the characters and advancing the action.

Things to work on: fine tuning the prose. Often I'm swept up in it, but often, too, slowed by awkward patches. It's the main thing that keeps this from being "professional." Watch out for extra words and needless explanation. Here are just a few examples:

The contents of the head of a teenage girl are a complete mystery, thought Mr Towler as he watched his daughter picking at her food that evening. He wondered if even she fully understood it all. He was unaware that only hours earlier she had been lying naked on her back, being forced to make love to a bottle of one of those newfangled Alco-pops by a couple of her schoolmates. If he had known he might have found his daughters current mood a little less mysterious.

Not bad. But there are a couple of things. In the second sentence, for example, we have two words (fully, and all) which all seem to wrap around the same vague thing. "All" would be my choice for he axe.

There is something a little blocky about the second to last sentence. And "make love" is a curious word choice. Because the point of view here is allied with Mr Towler, and for the sake of flow, you might consider integrating the final sentences:

Had Mr Towler known that only hours earlier his daughter had been lying naked on her back while a couple of her school mates forced a bottle of Alco-pops into her sex, he might have found his daughter's current mood a little less mysterious.

Then this:

She loved writing stories, and some of this had spilled over into her English essays, sometimes with surprising results.

But we don't see the surprising results. The idea that these essays are shared in public, in class, needlessly complicates the story.

The strategy was successful, at least in part. In fact her state of mind suited what she was writing very well, and the acts of cruelty perpetrated on her happy little band of pirates by the crews of marauding warships mirrored very well the cruelty inflicted on her by Kerry and Sylvie. She wrote with relish, and she wrote for hours until finally she was too tired to write more, and it was time for bed.

The diction is a little stuffy: cf "in fact," repetition of "very well." But there is really no need for the introductory sentence; you go on to show what is successful and what happens following. Why the preface?

Her state of mind lent itself to the tale she penned; the acts of cruelty ...

- Mat Twassel

From: Frank McCoy
Re: The Pirate Queen, by Nick
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 17:10:17 GMT

[email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote:

2 positive comments

I like the idea that SHE ended up in control. (I hate those torture-stories where the bottom is abused forever.) The bit with her father knowing something was wrong, felt real.

The bit at the end about the pirate fantasy-story being enacted was a nice touch.

2 things for improvement

SOMETHING ought to have been done to close off the part about her father worrying ... If only just having her father notice that whatever it was, wasn't there any more. It left an unfinished feel to the story. Threads left dangling.

Something about the scene where she was the "victim" at the house bothered me ... It didn't quite match with the next day, and the comment made by the author about when she arrived. Some indication I think, about how the other two were feeling. Maybe only a word of objection by Kerry, like a hesitant, "Sylvie?"? SOME idea that she wasn't quite comfortable with it herself.

Try not to repeat.

Tried.

/ ' /
,-/-, . __ /

(/ / ((/|/ / </ <

From: Joyce Melton
Re: The Pirate Queen, by Nick
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 06:51:59 GMT

I guess the thing I liked best about this story was the sly sense of fun, lurking just out of sight. Over and over, I read a line of dialogue or a description and I had to smile.

The motivations seemed both mysterious and true to life at the same time. Real people are this sort of complicated, though maybe not exactly like this. :)

Areas that could be improved; more careful proofreading for grammatical mistakes like "different to other girls," also with the sometimes changing POV the story loses focus in a couple of places.

I'm pretty impressed with this Fish Tank thing, BTW. :)

Joyce

From: dennyw
Re: The Pirate Queen, by Nick
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 00:16:32 -0700

On Tue, 04 Sep 2001 06:51:59 GMT, Joyce Melton <[email protected]> held forth, saying:

Areas that could be improved; more careful proofreading for grammatical mistakes like "different to other girls," also with the sometimes changing POV the story loses focus in a couple of places.

I agree that the piece needed proofing; but 'different to' is standard Brit usage. (granted, Nick isn't standard ...)

-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon

"A person reveals his character by nothing so clearly as the joke he resents."

- G. C. Lichtenberg

From: PleaseCain
Re: The Pirate Queen, by Nick
Date: 04 Sep 2001 06:19:38 GMT

The final scene is wonderfully playful. It evokes that freedom and exhilaration of a teenage romance, only in a much more mischievous way. I loved it.

Your third-person narrative voice is also quite good, dipping here and there into the characters' minds and motivations as you relate the story, all accomplished very naturally. I realized how naturally when I encountered this more awkward section:

"'Sylvie ...' Kerry had put her hand on Sylvie's shoulder and was gently turning her round to face her. Sylvie looked at her blankly.

"'Piss off!'

"Kerry took Jenny's arm and gently led her away, while Sylvie stood alone in the playground, mouth open, shifting awkwardly from foot to foot ... by suddenly died.

"Poor Sylvie! One day she would be working as a PA for a newspaper proprietor for whom her lack of imagination ... like most people Sylvie hated uncertainty.

"Kerry and Jenny walked together for a few moments."

It was at first unclear to me who uttered the Piss off - now obviously it was Kerry and not Sylvie and so this exclamation can be tacked on to the previous paragraph, no problem. But the Poor Sylvie paragraph is also jarring, because the narration throughout follows Jenny, except for this one paragraph of pointed observation, after which it returns to Jenny. Perhaps this can be smashed to a single sentence more tailored to the flow of the story. As it stands, it is too obtrusive an aside. Because then, like a good dancer who hits a slick spot on the floor, you bounced right back into rhythm.

I enjoy your writing, and cheers again on the fun ending.

Cain

From: Poison Ivan
Re: The Pirate Queen, by Nick
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 16:06:16 -0400

To me, this read almost like a psychological analysis of Jenny. What kind of person gets enjoyment from being whipped by a belt as if she were a pirate's prisoner? And what kind of events would lead to a school girl actually acting out that fantasy? When you think about it, it's a preposterous situation, yet it reads very believably, and I think it's the underlying psychology that makes the story work.

The type of narrator was perfect. Third person, enough inner thought to give us an inkling of where Jenny was going, but not so close that it gives the story away. This story could not be written in first person, I think. Or, if it was, it would be a very different story.

The scene where Kerry leaves Sylvie for Jenny didn't quite work for me. I think this is very nearly the climax of the story, and the events need to be described clearly. I'd like a little more description of the playground, too, just to help place the action in my head.

My other suggestion is more experimental, and I'm not sure it would be for the better. You have the scene where Sylvie is chasing after Jenny into the bedroom, and Jenny rushes off for home. At the end, you say:

Only as she put the key in the lock of her front door did she realize that Kerry hadn't played any part in her pursuit.

I wonder if this revelation shouldn't be made more dramatically, as part of the action inside Kerry's house? There could be a moment as Jenny rushes through the house on the way to the front door that she finds herself face-to-face with Kerry. A dramatic moment occurs. And then Kerry does nothing; she just lets Jenny rush past. This would let you show (instead of tell) that Kerry hadn't participated in the pursuit.

This story is very close, I think. A little tidying up, as others have pointed out, and it's there.

From: Desdmona
Re: The Pirate Queen, by Nick
Date: 07 Sep 2001 16:29:19 GMT

The Pirate Queen (fff bdsm) {Nick}

(The sequel to 'Alcopops')

I happen to like the title of this story very much. What is it about pirates? They come across as romantic heroes or heroines. Just dangerous enough to intrigue us. <sigh> in reality, most were probably toothless with scurvy, unbathed, greasy, foul breathed - in general icky! Anyway, I digress ...

With this story I really enjoyed the glimpse of the teenage girl. There are wonderful portions, most with the interaction between Jenny and her parents. She rolls her eyes, ignores and generally thinks her father is an idiot. Don't all teenagers feel and act the same way about their parents? She's desperately wanting to be a part of something, even if it is a mixed-up bdsm relationship. And the hidden away tin filled with her fantastical stories. (I had one of those - lost them all in a tornado) Teenage girls are notorious for writing all their teenage angst and keeping it safely hidden somewhere.

The part of the story where Jenny is alone in her room, and sifting through her stories, I was left with really wanting more. I wanted more examples, more description, more of all of it. I think it's the idea place in the story to get inside Jenny's head. I would especially like some thoughts about Kerry inserted here, find out why Jenny is drawn to her, maybe some mixed feelings of being controlled by Kerry. Or maybe how Kerry is like a character in Jenny's stories.

Another place in the story that holds such promise is while the girls are sifting through Kerry's mother's wardrobe. I think here is a great opportunity for Jenny to show off some of her creativity, and consequently, show why Kerry is drawn to Jenny. I'd like to see more descriptions of the outfits in the closet and possibly Jenny's imagination at work concerning the clothes.

I can actually see a whole series of stories written with these characters. There's so much possibility to explore.

Thanks Nick for submitting to the Fish Tank!

Oh, one thing I did forget, I had a slang hurdle to jump in the closet scene when Kerry says, "You taking the piss?" I think I get the general idea, but can I have an explanation just to be sure?

Desdmona

From: Nick
Re: The Pirate Queen, by Nick
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 23:15:18 GMT

Thanks to all who responded. I have to say that sometimes I put off reading stories purely because of their length, and was conscious of the fact that this one was one of the longer submissions. From my point of view, then, I was doubly grateful to those who contributed.

Before I start, does anyone use character sheets? I tried it once, but generally I prefer to get on with the story. In this instance I think it might have been a good idea. It took a long time to write, because I had to do 3 redrafts of it, and Jenny's character wasn't clear enough in my mind. As a result I feel the story was overworked and badly scarred. One can do only so much to hide these scars, and I think the story suffered as a result..

This also connects with the comments on proofreading, and I could have done with leaving it for another week to iron out the final creases. However, since Des was short of stories this week, I thought I'd go for broke.

I'll adopt the same format Anne did:

Mat Twassel:
Thank you for the comprehensive comments on the awkward sentences. I'll certainly change the first sentence you mentioned, and second awkward use of the phrase 'make love' I was unhappy with anyway. I just couldn't think of anything better, but I didn't want to use anything too raw. He was her father after all!

As for the second section, this was still very much in development (see later).

I'm amazed that you regarded it as 'almost professional'. Thanks!

Frank McCoy
The main idea for the story came from a woman who I corresponded with years ago who was a 'sub'. She made it perfectly clear that if anyone did anything to her she didn't like, he (or she) was in deep trouble! I envisaged this poor crestfallen guy holding a whip being given the third degree by his victim. The image appealed to me :-).

I agree, I don't like stories where real cruelty is enacted and yet we are supposed to believe the victim enjoys it all. For this reason like the idea of a fantasy within a fantasy (ie Jenny's within mine). I might use this idea again sometime.

As for the father worrying, as far as I'm concerned he wasn't a part of the story. He was background, like the drone on bagpipes (I mean that in a good way!). He will always worry about his daughter, whther she is being bullied at school or acting out pirate fantasies. nothing changes. Thats what fathers do! He has the honed sensitivities that a caring father has for his daughters and is in tune with her in a way that he could barely articulate, but that's as far as it goes.

The connection between the 'victim' scene and the following day probably needs attention and is an example of the 'scarring' I mentioned earlier. However, Kerry would never question Sylvie!

Joyce Melton

I'm glad you liked the 'fun' bits. A sense of humour can be very particular and if you're not careful, can misfire badly, so I'm pleased that at least one person was in tune!

As for changing POV's, presumably to Jenny's dad, Kerry and then Sylvie, perhaps I need to think of a better way of doing that. I didn't see that it was avoidable though.

Poison Ivan

I had to smile slightly. The whole idea is preposterous. I actually have a 16 yr old daughter, and while writing this, I kept wondering if she or anyone in her circle might be indulging in such a fantasy. Although I don't actually know, I had to shake my head, and say 'Nah, not possible!'. So I had to work hard on working an acceptable scenario.

I do know, however, that some girls (and guys) do act out secret fantasies alone, and I find that tremendously exciting! (the idea that a frumpy housewife might, say, dress up as Supergirl while the kids are at school sounds like real fun!) So it was partly that idea i was playing on.

I think that your suggestion that I could have strengthened the fact that Kerry wasn't chasing Jenny, was good, and might have gone some way to satisfying you (and others) on the way Kerry left Sylvie.

Desdemona

In reality too, a captured Pirate Queen would probably have the skin stripped off her back by a cat o' nine tails - and that would be the least of her worries! As I said to Frank, that was not a story I wanted to write, and if I had, it would not be a sex story. But as you say, we have a romantic image of pirates, and it is that 'fantasy within a fantasy' idea that I was trying to explore.

Although Jenny isn't modelled on my daughter, what you say is true about teenage girls. I can say 'been there, done that'! She does think I'm an idiot, and she doesn't want me anywhere near the inside of her head! (Can you blame her!?;-))

You managed to pick on two areas of the story that were late additions and which definitely needed more development. Originally the idea that she was writing a story called the Pirate Queen was just a simple statement, then I thought, 'Hey, I should make more of that!'. The same with the wardrobe. It was just that I'd run out of ideas at the time. I'll revisit it and put more in.

As for 'taking the piss', it means 'making fun of..' or 'taking the mickey'. I did wonder how it would translate, but since I could 'see' Kerry standing there, scowling at Jenny as she held up the school uniform, and uttering those words, I just couldn't change it. Sorry!

PleaseCain

As for the fun ending, it was never going to be anything else! :-)

I almost didn't put the 'Poor Sylvie' paragraph in. The point was that up until then she didn't have a point of view at all. She was just an extension of Kerry's point of view. Then, suddenly, she was alone and for the first time she did have a point of view. I also wanted to make the reader just a little sorry for her. In order to do that, I had to jar just a little.

Thanks again for all your comments and for your patience.

Cheers

Nick

From: Poison Ivan
Re: The Pirate Queen, by Nick
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 23:15:59 -0400

"Nick" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...

Before I start, does anyone use character sheets? I tried it once, but generally I prefer to get on with the story. In this instance I think it might have been a good idea.

What do you mean by "character sheets"? I assume it's a mini-biography of your character, distilled down to a few paragraphs? Was yours a form of some kind? When you did one, what was on it?

If it's what I think it is, then I've never used them voluntarily. Although, I suppose, if I ended up with a complicated story, they could be useful, just to help keep focussed. I think it would be more useful for minor characters than major characters, though, because I feel like I know my main characters pretty intimately already.

Poison Ivan
^ very curious to hear about Nick's character sheets

From: Anne747
Re: The Pirate Queen, by Nick
Date: 09 Sep 2001 04:11:24 GMT

Nick asked:

Before I start, does anyone use character sheets? I tried it once, but generally I prefer to get on with the story.

I did a character-type exercise for one story that never got off the ground. It was going to have mystery overtones, and I thought it would be a good idea to identify the people, their links to others in the story, and perhaps their secrets.

Yikes, I just looked at the date on that ... never mind.

Anne

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From: Nick
Re: The Pirate Queen, by Nick
Date: 9 Sep 2001 01:56:43 -0700

"Poison Ivan" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...

What do you mean by "character sheets"? I assume it's a mini-biography of your character, distilled down to a few paragraphs? Was yours a form of some kind? When you did one, what was on it?

If it's what I think it is, then I've never used them voluntarily. Although, I suppose, if I ended up with a complicated story, they could be useful, just to help keep focussed. I think it would be more useful for minor characters than major characters, though, because I feel like I know my main characters pretty intimately already.

I was sent a 'sawn-off' version of a charcter sheet that the 'eclectic writers' group provide (I'll check the web address if anyones interested). It reads very much like an intrusive job application form. The full version runs on for pages and pages and covers all kinds of stuff, most of which will be irrelevant to any story (e.g. name of the characters favourite teacher). The one I have is a bit more useful, but will still contain lots of irrelevant information. The point is, however, that the more you know about your character, the more realistic they'll be. It's the 'iceberg' principle, which I believe Hemingway espoused.

Again, if anyones interested i can dig around for the web address, or even post my copy of the form somewhere.

Nick

From: Nick
Re: The Pirate Queen, by Nick
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 17:14:08 GMT

I mentioned the idea of using character sheets in the Fishtank. I don't myself, mainly through laziness, but if anyone is interested, here is a link:

http://www.eclectics.com/articles/character.html

Nick

From: Anne747
Re: The Pirate Queen, by Nick
Date: 09 Sep 2001 19:04:41 GMT

Nick wrote:

I mentioned the idea of using character sheets in the Fishtank. I don't myself, mainly through laziness, but if anyone is interested, here is a link:

Good link. I think this would be very helpful if you were doing a novel, especially with a number of characters. To some extent I already do some of this with even short stories, just not in a formal way. I always know the characters' motivations, even when the reader doesn't. ;-)

Anne

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From: Jordan Shelbourne
Re: The Pirate Queen, by Nick
Date: 10 Sep 2001 08:17:08 -0700

[email protected] (Nick) wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...

I mentioned the idea of using character sheets in the Fishtank. I don't myself, mainly through laziness, but if anyone is interested, here is a link:

http://www.eclectics.com/articles/character.html

Nick

I did not read the original reference in the Fishtank, so I don't know if I'm repeating anything here.

I hope this chart is useful to those who try it and is ignored by those who don't find it useful.

I say this specifically because when I was much younger I ran across a similar chart and sweated over it for each character. I spent several years figuring out my characters' heights and weights and mother's maiden names and how they related to each other. For me, it was a cat-vacuuming exercise: it looked like writing without being writing.

I repeat: your mileage will vary. If you feel this is useful to you, do it. I encourage everyone who writes to try it, just to see if it's useful. But if it doesn't work for you, don't feel any guilt about abandoning it.

I find some of it useful to know in advance. For example, motivation is important to me, for a major character. Self-image is the other; there was an old psych theory of personality that I find useful. (People will act in accordance with their self-image - it's just like your mother guilting you into doing something because you're a "good" boy, and whatever it is is what good boys do.) (That would be the Self-Perception and Goals parts of the character sheet.)

I remember Jimmy Stewart once spoke about the difference between how he and Henry Fonda prepared for roles: For Fonda, the character came from the outside in, and it came with the mannerisms and the costume; for Stewart, it came from the inside out. (Now someone will point out I've swapped the two actors, or got the wrong people entirely. Ah, well; I'm old, I forget things.)

If you're the kind of writer for whom this kind of concrete detail is essential, then do this chart. If your the kind of writer for whom this kind of concrete detail is irrelevant or stifling, since you'll create the appropriate detail when you need it, then ignore it. Detail what you need to detail.

If you're writing a novel, though, do keep a list of these details as you've created them. It makes it much easier to avoid unexpected hair color changes.

From: Nick
Re: The Pirate Queen, by Nick
Date: 10 Sep 2001 15:30:13 -0700

[email protected] (Jordan Shelbourne) wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...

I hope this chart is useful to those who try it and is ignored by those who don't find it useful.

If you're the kind of writer for whom this kind of concrete detail is essential, then do this chart. If your the kind of writer for whom this kind of concrete detail is irrelevant or stifling, since you'll create the appropriate detail when you need it, then ignore it. Detail what you need to detail.

Absolutely! There has to be a certain amount of 'pig-headedness' when you're learning to write otherwise you'll never find what works for you. If you allow yourself to become hidebound by rules and disciplines that even succesful writers have come up with, then it'll stop being fun and eventually you might find it kills the muse altogether.

That said, I think one has to apply the lash of self-disipline at least a bit, in order to learn the art.

If you're writing a novel, though, do keep a list of these details as you've created them. It makes it much easier to avoid unexpected hair color changes.

Or even when a skirt magically changes to a pair of shorts, before being dispensed with altogether!

Nick

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