The following is our 41st contribution to the FishTank. Thank you to those
who continue to support this effort. This story is 2111 words in length.
John has tentatively coded it (ROM) Standard FishTank guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
#1. I liked this piece because it was trying to tell the story of a
developing relationship. It takes the time and trouble to build characters
and situation.
#2. Some nice exposition of keenly-observed reality. The little touches of
wry humour are appreciated.
"I'm fine," I gasped. "I'm Steve," exploded with a second breath.
"You ought to take a slower pace to start, Steve."
"I'm Steve."
"Build up gradually. You sure you're okay?"
"Steve." I was really doing great.
Nice
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
#1. There was much pointless, self-indulgent intrusion of the narrator and
his narrational devices into the narrative. They add nothing, distract, and
finally annoy.
I should have said that right at first.
topic, though; I'll cut that in my second draft. "I jog" is where my
story should commence.
she was all big tits or wow what ass. I don't go in for talk like that.
and so on, and on.
#2 Clarity of exposition:
Her skin was dark. Not Black, but maybe partly Black, or partly
Aboriginal,
Does this sentence have meaning? If so, what is it? And why is the meaning
not accessible to the reader?
I'm a painter not an athlete, so I had a hard time keeping up her pace. I
caught her, finally, six weeks later (a dozen days she'd breezed right by
Gawd, what a long run!
Nat
"Father Ignatius" <Father Ignatius at ANTISPAMhot mail dot com>
http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Stories.html
The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 13:04:25 -0500
On Mon, 3 Jun 2002 09:40:25 -0400, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote:
First, I like the whole story, the romantic pursuit and all of the
details. The way it is told through tiny episodes is a little jarring
(needs smoothing, that is a place for improvement) but it overall
illustrates the key bits in making the romance happen.
We get to see Heather visually, at least a little. The description
doesn't seem very precise, but it is there. Janet shows up only as
personality and actions, which makes a contrast. Was Steve more
interested in Heather's body than her personality? Or else, when they
got to be friends the relationship stayed that way?
Ripping off the traffic sign was Janet's plot. Totally her scam. She
planned to take it all, the sign, the metal pole, the street names at the
top. "Two fucking bolts. Thirty seconds tops. Tops!" she'd argued. "You
get to keep the fucking post and 'Stop.' It's fucking crap to me." Her
words. Not mine. Her expletives especially.
Ripping off signs is a fun thing.
OK, it is really that easy to do. Not sure about taking the whole
pole - hereabouts they are well set in the ground, not something to
pull out. But the sign and top are pretty easy if you have the right
tools.
Naming streets after people's names only encourages this. Plus we
happen to have an "Easy Street" which seems like a prime target.
The whole sign ripping off thing might be juvenile, but it is also a
kind of risk. I think that there are more fun risks, if you like
taking chances and are exhibitionistic.
Of course, she wasn't there. Never was again. I was glad, at first, she
wasn't. I would have felt too guilty. That night we stole the sign, I
screwed things up completely. I'm still not sure just how I did. I tried
to take her home. She had a beer. I had a couple. We recounted what we'd
done. We both said "fuck" a lot and laughed. She loved the street sign
with her name and "Princess." She seemed so happy that I let her have her
way. She went to use the john. I heard the tap. She had a shower. She
didn't even ask! "I fucking smelled like shit," she said as she came out in
just a towel. "Got a tee or something I could wear? Or nothing? What the
fuck."
This part is confusing to me. I think that the "she wasn't there"
was Heather, but it isn't so clear from what follows, because it turns
clearly into Janet (her name).
That's Janet for you. She's been here almost every night since then.
Oh yeah, the coffee table. Made by Janet. One evening we were lying on the
chesterfield, a post-coital snack. Naked still, she tossed me grapes and
cracker fish by aiming at my open mouth. "You need a fucking place to put
your shit." The bowl of grapes was cradled underneath her breast; the
biscuit box was nestled where her pubic hair had been. "Where's that
fucking sign?"
The table's kind of weird, of course, and tippy, but it's here to stay,
'cause Janet made it. I love it dearly, really. (I'd never want to let
this out to Janet, though; she's way more fragile than you'd think.) It's
something stolen, something secret. Like a memory of soft, brown eyes.
By this point it seems clear that Janet stayed and Heather bowed
out. Not running into either of them again, though I can't be sure
why.
Minor improvement: more sex in the sex scene :-) I know, it is
well implied, but to me the kicker in the romance is that whole first
time together situation. Before that, they didn't even date, so
changing from friends to semi-permanent lovers could have a lot more
details in that part. Maybe I'm greedy? But to me, that is a pretty
big part in a sex story romance (as opposed to plain romance stories,
where we can skip the sex details just fine).
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Qickless
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: 3 Jun 2002 11:58:50 -0700
Great piece of writing!
"Okay, her eyes were warm and brown. I notice eyes.
They weren't that hurt or mean. Maybe quiet, just a bit. The kind of
eyes
that you could look at over corn flakes half a life and never lose
your
interest, the kind that sparkle even when they're half-asleep, just
waking
up or tuckered out from chasing kids all day."
I love that!
I love the way you slowly contrast those two girls in the story, I
love the way you begin and end, I love the way you build up, I fucking
love Janet!
Even though you twist the narrative about, I found this story to be
uncomplicated, and that in itself is a very good thing. I got the idea
that you were trying to merge Janet and Heather into a single person,
the loss of one somehow compensated by the other.
Perhaps you could rephrase this?
"More abrasive hardly needs a mention. (That
line's superfluous, as well.)"
coz, when I came about there, the story stalled for a long while on
that line. It sorta interuppted the narrative.
To conclude, I think this is a very mature piece of work, it is a
refreshing change from the stories that I've read, my only suggestion
would be to couch the whole story in a little more colloquial aura, I
don't know how better to explain this, but what I mean is something
like introduce a wee bit more spice to the narrative. I don't know if
you can do it without spoiling the whole guy-image of Stephen however.
Very very good.
Qickless,
http://asstr.org/~qickless
The following is our 41st contribution to the FishTank. Thank you to those
who continue to support this effort. This story is 2111 words in length.
John has tentatively coded it (ROM) Standard FishTank guidelines apply:
From: celia batau
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 17:43:03 -0700
Perhaps, but I think, reading is all about trying to understand.
metaphors are good (and your story is good too even though we think we
missed the imaginary part). :) but metaphor needs a key. a map. or something
in the story to help align the reader. otherwise no one would know that
velvet means softness, richness, heaviness, or something else. don't have to
explain, just little something to nudge. we use tons of metaphor and
interconnections in our stories that most prolly would never understand, but
they're there with shadows to hint at the others. you said you're fixing the
flow, but that's what we think we missed in your story to help us understand
(you explained she was rich and getting dressed, then the next paragraph she
was arriving somewhere. we didn't see anything to suggest that the final
mirror was the same one as the beginning, you know?)
but then we're still trying to figure our DrSpin's Monsoon. <sigh> :)
yay Qickless! :)
-celia the never gives up girl
celia batau's story site: http://www.myplanet.net/pinataheart/stories.htm.
make my outsides match my insides
kill the pain that dwells within
make the tears flow from my eyes
instead of from my skin
-Laura
From: oosh
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 02:22:09 +0000 (UTC)
The following is our 41st contribution to the FishTank. Thank you to those
who continue to support this effort. This story is 2111 words in length.
John has tentatively coded it (ROM) Standard FishTank guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
3) Try not to repeat!
Submissions, comments, guideline rules and FAQ can all be found at
http://www.asstr.org/~Desdmona/FishTank/base. Further questions can be
directed to [email protected] or [email protected].
********************************************
Not Getting Caught
By [email protected]
I liked it overall. The technique of jumping back and forth in time
helps keep it interesting while not revealing too much of the
characters at once. And it sets up the twist. We first meet Janet but
I get the impression that he doesn't really like her. Then we meet and
learn to love Heather. But he ends up with ...
The self denigration is also a nice touch, but, as some others have
said, I think it's a bit overdone.
I like the way the dialogue flows with the story, but I got lost with
the
dialogue near the end and had to work at figuring out who said what.
"I'm wiped. You go ahead."
"Heather?"
"I'll prob'ly see you Tuesday in the park, okay."
"Okay."
"You were fucking cool, girl! Thanks."
"See ya, Janet."
"Tuesday. By the fountain? Six?" I hoped.
This is not a big problem but I think there are some things at which a
reader should not have to work. Symbolism, deeper themes, yeah, but
not parsing the story.
Of course it could use more sex, but that could be said of most
stories.:)
Tesseract
From: Desdmona
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 16:26:13 -0400
This is a wonderfully, naive story written in a sophisticated way. It's
simplicity of boy meets two girls and ends up with one, always wondering
"what if" about the other is told in such a way it has oomph! I like it a
lot. The problem is I want to like it more, but confusion gets in my way.
After a second reading, most of the fuzziness was clear, but I'm wondering
if some simple changes wouldn't prevent confusion all together, such as
changing some of the "she's" and "hers" to actual names.
Instead of "That's where I met her, met them both, I guess. Heather
first, a year ago almost, so I should start with her.
How about "That's where I met them both. Heather and Janet, but Heather
first, a year ago almost, so I should start with her."
And
"Of course, she wasn't there. Never was again. I was glad, at first, she
wasn't. I would have felt too guilty. That night we stole the sign, I
screwed things up completely. I'm still not sure just how I did. I tried
to take her home."
Changes to "Of course Heather wasn't there. Never was again. I was glad at
first, she wasn't. I would have felt too guilty. The night we stole the
sign, I screwed things up completely. I'm still not sure how I did. I tried
to take Janet home ..."
You also might consider losing the nickname - Jan - or maybe use it more than
once. Although I think if other things are cleared up, then I might not have
stopped to wonder if this was a completely different character.
A couple of other things that could be fixed to clear away confusion:
"Princes St. S." and "Janet Ct." Just like that, the one above the other."
I think this is meant to be Princess St. At this point in the story, it was
vague why it was such a cool thing to have both street signs.
And
"The van rolled smoothly onto Jasper Ave., flooding us with neon. Mission
accomplished. Janet straightened up, but left her fingers resting on my
thigh. "Fucking A," she chimed in celebration.
Heather didn't say a word. I couldn't see where she was driving."
If he couldn't see where she was driving, how did he know the van rolled
smoothly onto Jasper Ave.?
And finally,
"The table's kind of weird, of course, and tippy, but it's here to stay,
'cause Janet made it. I love it dearly, really. (I'd never want to let
this out to Janet, though; she's way more fragile than you'd think.) It's
something stolen, something secret. Like a memory of soft, brown eyes."
I'm trying to understand this paragraph better. I've decided it's meant to
say that the table stays because Janet stays. But because you've put the
parenthetical phrase after the "I love it dearly, really ..." I thought at
first he didn't want Janet to know he loved the table, but of course he
means he doesn't want Janet to know his reasons for loving the table.
In circumspect, it seems like I've pointed out a lot, but in my mind it all
points to the same thing - clearing away confusion. I may be missing some
point that makes areas of vagueness important to the story, so if I have, I
apologize.
The story is really good, too good to be thought less of, if simple changes
can prevent it.
And now I'm afraid I've given the impression I didn't like the story, but
the truth is - I loved it - especially after the second reading.
Thank you, John, for your willingness to contribute to the FishTank. We're
lucky to have you join us.
Des
From: Bradley Stoke
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: 4 Jun 2002 14:22:54 -0700
John
What makes this story is its rhythm. It jogs along. Well paced. Fluid. Back
and forth. The conversation is natural. The structure is just right. Not a
bad story at all.
I've seen some of your critiques for other submissions to the Fish Tank, and
from the general intelligence and perceptiveness of your comments, I wasn't
at all surprised that your story was so well-structured and fluid.
As is the nature of these things: first the praise and then the nits.
My most favourite bit of all is the jogging scene. It captured very well
those snatched moments and repetitions. That was done exceptionally well.
And the first time I've seen it in any piece of fiction, so there's a fair
chance this was absolutely original. So congratulations for achieving
something that's not that easy to do.
The second major plus for me is the overall conversational style. I might
have thought it laid on the "fuck"s a bit heavily, but I guess a lot of
people do say "fuck" a lot. I do when I've had a bit too much to drink. So,
what the fuck! The style was just right. You handled it with incredible
fluency. It was like sitting in someone's room while he lets forth on
something or other. (Although you wisely moderated the style for the jogging
scenes).
My only major concern was motive. Just why did Steven and Janet want to drag
Heather into stealing a traffic sign? Perhaps the initial paragraph is all
the explanation I needed. But if this Janet is such an oddball, perhaps we
needed to know a bit more about her to make her actions more credible.
My other concern was just why it was necessary to get Heather in particular
involved at all. Again a motive question. Does it really take three people to
steal a traffic sign? (I must confess my ignorance here. I've never even
stolen a traffic cone!)
However, motive schmotive. It gave a lovely opportunity for us to get to
know Heather better. And although at the end, I wasn't sure I knew Heather's
personality particularly well, she sounds like a very attractive woman to
me. And there aren't enough attractive women in the stories submitted to
ASSM.
Bradley Stoke
For More : http://www.asstr.org/~Bradley_Stoke
(mirror: http://bradley-stoke.fsn.net)
From: Tesseract
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: 5 Jun 2002 00:00:50 -0700
My only major concern was motive. Just why did Steven and Janet want to drag
Heather into stealing a traffic sign? Perhaps the initial paragraph is all
the explanation I needed. But if this Janet is such an oddball, perhaps we
needed to know a bit more about her to make her actions more credible.
My other concern was just why it was necessary to get Heather in particular
involved at all. Again a motive question. Does it really take three people to
steal a traffic sign? (I must confess my ignorance here. I've never even
stolen a traffic cone!)
Bradley Stoke
One to steal the sign, one to provide moral (immoral?) support and one
to drive the getaway car. People seldom do really stupid things
without someone else to egg them on.
Which reminds me - This was Janet's idea. Why didn't she do the
actual deed?
Tesseract
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 12:46:03 -0500
My only major concern was motive. Just why did Steven and Janet want to drag
Heather into stealing a traffic sign? Perhaps the initial paragraph is all
the explanation I needed. But if this Janet is such an oddball, perhaps we
needed to know a bit more about her to make her actions more credible.
My other concern was just why it was necessary to get Heather in particular
involved at all. Again a motive question. Does it really take three people to
steal a traffic sign? (I must confess my ignorance here. I've never even
stolen a traffic cone!)
Bradley Stoke
One to steal the sign, one to provide moral (immoral?) support and one
to drive the getaway car. People seldom do really stupid things
without someone else to egg them on.
The moral support person also handles the tools and helps carry the
things away. They are not light :-)
Which reminds me - This was Janet's idea. Why didn't she do the
actual deed?
Maybe she wanted her friends to get naughty. She was already
willing to do it; there is a thrill to getting someone "nice" to break
the rules.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: celia batau
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 22:43:47 -0700
The following is our 41st contribution to the FishTank. Thank you to those
who continue to support this effort. This story is 2111 words in length.
John has tentatively coded it (ROM) Standard FishTank guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
3) Try not to repeat!
pozzie one: we liked the conversational style. if you read it fast and don't
go back to reread the part you missed, it carries a strong conversational
style and the funky grammar works. :)
pozzie two: the part in the back of the van was good. :)
neggie one: the story sems to assume that the reader knows Janet. she isn't
mentioned in the "them" of the second paragraph. her "Janet saids" are
completely left out of the dialogue, and the part where the three meet by
the fountain is presented in a way that suggests all three already knew each
other. and even Janet's whole introduction is left out. we didn't think the
very first paragraph counted.
neggie two. the first sentence of the second paragraph. we liked it the
first time we read it. was kind of "eh" the second time, and didn't like it
at all the third time we read it. :)
thanks for sharing the story. :)
-celia
From: PleaseCain
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: 07 Jun 2002 23:26:52 GMT
The voice sounds genuine, his self-effacement and self-absorption at once, and
so the story has a flair that keeps us reading. You've vested your narrator
with a lot of personality. Finally, you captured the sentimental longings of
lost love, because he really wanted to be with Heather instead of Janet, didn't
he? No small feat, there.
The dialogue of the third segment (beginning with "'Princes St. S.' and 'Janet
Ct.'") is confusing, needs attributions - three-way conversations, like
three-way sex, requires extra care to keep straight between writer and reader.
(By the way, I assume that the street name is supposed to be "Princess St. S."
as mentioned later in the story.) I am still unclear as to why they nicked
those particular signs: "Janet" is easy enough, but does "Princess" also refer
to Janet, as in "Princess Janet," or is it a nickname for Heather? I think the
answer is the former, but the words Princess and Janet are not used in
conjunction with each other elsewhere in the story, and so I have my doubts.
What you accomplished with the voice is the most significant thing, the natural
tone that is lively and easy to read (but not so to write, I know). It will
keep me looking for more of your stories.
Cain
From: H. Jeckyll
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: 8 Jun 2002 06:32:27 -0700
This is an exercise, in a couple of ways, the first being an
accomplished writer telling a story from the POV of a naive story
teller, the shifting back and forth in time, leaving things out and
having to return to them, etc. Personal, off topic statements. I'm not
saying Huck Finn or anything (I wouldn't be that bold), but it reads
as a legitimate draft of the narrator's. It's very well done.
The second is the love story. So much is invested in Heather, who is
thoroughly nice and likeable, but >pow< suddenly she is gone because,
frankly, she can't bring herself to compete with Janet's dynamism.
She's a lot like Steve, needing someone else to move her story along
(e.g., she'd actually noticed Steve, though he didn't know it; we know
this because she tells him later; she's a lot like him that way).
Frankly I didn't like Heather's disappearance fron the story, but it
was deliberate, so I don't know that I can "complain." This isn't a
"neggie" as we say, because it doesn't detract from the story. It's a
constituent part of the story. I don't like that aspect of the
story, but I can't chastise JohnDear for not writing exactly the story
I want to read.
Things like that really do happen in life, and JohnDear wants to
follow the dynamics of relationships, where the active,
non-introspective, headstrong really do win. It's not easy being shy.
It is easy for Steve to let someone else (Janet of course) run his
life. He'd never have done anything with Heather, I think, and -
reading into this - I think Heather leaves not because she sees them
making out, or because she is put off by the petty pilferage, but
because she recognizes that Janet gets what she wants, and she
doesn't.
Neggie: More sex! (well, there are supposed to be things to
"improve")
Suggestion: Write Heather's story someday.
H. Jekyll
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: 08 Jun 2002 15:34:53 GMT
H Jekyll writes:
Suggestion: Write Heather's story someday.
Yes. Otherwise, for all we know, Janet turned her in, and she's been serving
time these past months for sign theft.
- Mat Twassel
From: celia batau
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 14:13:46 -0700
Yes. Otherwise, for all we know, Janet turned her in, and she's been
serving
time these past months for sign theft.
<gasp> and she's been passed around for a pack of cigarettes and a bottle of
nail polish!
<fans herself>
-cb
celia batau's story site: http://www.myplanet.net/pinataheart/stories.htm.
Dame cafe con leche. Dame cafe con leche.
-don't remember but it's a good song
From: john
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: 8 Jun 2002 23:05:58 -0700
The following is our 41st contribution to the FishTank. Thank you to those
who continue to support this effort. This story is 2111 words in length.
John has tentatively coded it (ROM) Standard FishTank guidelines apply:
Dear everyone,
This will be more difficult by far than the writing of the story.
Of course, thank you. It a heady experience, a head-swelling
experience, and also humbling.
First off, admissions. Thanks Des. The "s" in Princess was an
oversight; and Jan was just bad judgement. I write in rhythms [thank
you, those that noticed that] and sometimes I sacrifice the meaning
just to make the metre come out right. Bad judgement like I said.
Almost all the rest, the too long sentences, the drab asides, the
indecision was (Father I forgive me) my intention. Not just the ones
you all discovered, but awful things like "real a meal", "atop a
drop." The burbs were like Siberia! Not to mention alliterations,
"plethora of pick-up lines", "memorize the moment." (Thank you,
Henri! I just read your comment. But then you've had some practice
with my mind.) You were all too kind, too generous. You, all of you,
write much too well to be forgiving of such stuff. Except ...
I'll cut that in my second draft.
I somehow thought that line would flash much louder than it did. I
meant the story to be Steven's first draft. And I meant that to be
the real story. As Des and Cain, I think, mostly understood, it is a
confession that he's written, one that his new gf Janet wouldn't be
all that pleased to read. I thought somehow that you, like me, as
secret writers would read "not getting caught" as something that we
all have tried to do. Our vandalism is erotica. Stephen is a pretty
uncool guy. But he takes a chance and writes a story, a love story
about a woman that he'd met, how he'd "been caught" by someone very
different, someone so jagged she takes anything she wants (right on
again dear jekyl), yet vulnerable enough (Stephen suspects) to be hurt
by his first attempt at fiction.
Why is it a "first" draft only? I think the unthinkable must have
happened, the thing that many of us dread. A spouse or offspring or a
friend or gf sees a paper out of place or a computer file left open.
It's the only reason I can think of why Stephen wouldn't polish this,
his quiet ode to Heather.
Tagging Janet? Very observant, Celia. Not once. But not one speech
of her's without the f word either. Not one. Heather is too sweet to
use that word. Stephen (until he's caught!) finds it abrasive too,
makes the point that the expletives are hers alone.
Some of you liked Janet far too much. <s> I'd take the blame for that,
except the Janets that I've let control my life are oh so likeable, so
strong, so independent, they're fucking attractive on their own. <eg
to Qickless> I'm loath to more than try exposing her. I'm scared to
death to really sling some mud at Janets.
Brad's motive thing. <sigh. I missed again.> Stephen wanted Heather
there ... because he wanted Heather there. Janet probably gave a
flying f about the sign, in retrospect; she had her sights on Steve.
She knew that she could ease out Heather when the time was ripe.
Heathers never make a fuss. (Mine Got, Henri did you hack into my
computer and read this letter.) Janet wanted to do something,
anything with Steve that would loosen him up a bit and scare those
pretty Heather eyes away.
More sex for Jeff and Qickless (and Henri). Perhaps, in another
story. One written by a Janet. For Steve, like me, the largest sex
organ amongst humans, the most sensitive indeed, is certainly the
brain.
The reason this is hard is that I feel defensive, pedantic even. I
missed a lot of things in the writing, and I didn't really pull it off
for most of you at all, not what I wanted. There is no easy fix for
that. [I've already added the s on princes and the et on jan.] The
rest was obviously more in my head than on the paper. It's a bit like
adding just the right amount of salt into a stew to make it sweet
without so much it tastes offensive.
I'll see you in a month. I'm off to see Seattle. Raise high the
Kingdome, Carpenters. As Ares comes the writer!
Enough,
John
Not enough! OMG! The things one sees when reading over what one's
writ.
The cure might be, right at the end, to double line ======== and
write:
What shit! What fucking crap this is! And, duh, he leaves it
underneath the cushion of his couch? He's fucking blonde or what!
Okay. My side. The fucking truth about the three of us and ripping
off the sign. And then I'll post it on the fucking Internet and see
whose laughing then.
First off, since Steve's too bland to tell you who I am, I'm Janet. I
am the reigning champ at a singles badminton ...
and so on for a page or two, the story from her side ... and maybe even
some ever fucking explicit fucking, Janet style. I'll think about it
on the plane.
Now that's enough for sure.
John
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 10:15:26 -0500
This is an exercise, in a couple of ways, the first being an
accomplished writer telling a story from the POV of a naive story
teller, the shifting back and forth in time, leaving things out and
having to return to them, etc. Personal, off topic statements. I'm not
saying Huck Finn or anything (I wouldn't be that bold), but it reads
as a legitimate draft of the narrator's. It's very well done.
But that can be confusing, because a rough draft feel can make the
story feel rougher, harder to read. I think it is a valid thing to
try to do. It just is kind of easy for the reader to get distracted
by that.
Opening with a false attribution to the fictional narrator might
make that more clear.
Though I think the most impressive (or at least attention-getting)
use of a false narrator is Norman Spinrad's "Iron Dream", 'written' by
the famous science fiction writer Adolf Hitler, along with a review
:-)
However, once you accept that the story is a somewhat naive telling
by the narrator, that works fine. I've used language in some stories,
in the prose telling, to reflect the narrator's POV rather than my own
conversational style. I'll do it again, too.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 10:52:33 -0500
I somehow thought that line would flash much louder than it did. I
meant the story to be Steven's first draft. And I meant that to be
the real story. As Des and Cain, I think, mostly understood, it is a
confession that he's written, one that his new gf Janet wouldn't be
all that pleased to read. I thought somehow that you, like me, as
secret writers would read "not getting caught" as something that we
all have tried to do. Our vandalism is erotica. Stephen is a pretty
uncool guy. But he takes a chance and writes a story, a love story
about a woman that he'd met, how he'd "been caught" by someone very
different, someone so jagged she takes anything she wants (right on
again dear jekyl), yet vulnerable enough (Stephen suspects) to be hurt
by his first attempt at fiction.
That line isn't perfectly clear to me, and to others. It looks like
the editorial comments we writers make, and hope won't get left in the
story after editing. A bit more thought, and I could see that it was
intentional. But it didn't stand out as such. If the tale had a
byline from stephen at the start, maybe that would help clarify it?
Not getting caught, only in part. It depends on who is going to see
the thing. My writing I intend to be seen, and I have some people I
feel safe showing it to. Without knowing who Stephen intended to tell
the story to, it is a little harder to see that; writing is an attempt
to communicate.
My SOs are big on the list of people who I would show my stories to.
A private story, a letter to a different friend, I might let out some
secrets I'm not yet willing to tell my SO. But OTOH, I've had really
good experiences telling my SO all, and don't have a big habit of
keeping secrets like that.
Why is it a "first" draft only? I think the unthinkable must have
happened, the thing that many of us dread. A spouse or offspring or a
friend or gf sees a paper out of place or a computer file left open.
It's the only reason I can think of why Stephen wouldn't polish this,
his quiet ode to Heather.
Maybe. But then, why would Janet be all so upset? A bit unhappy,
but probably not so much as to ruin the relationship. The tale seemed
pretty positive to me. I liked Janet a lot.
Of course, I'm not so much like Stephen, so maybe I don't get, in my
own heart, the problems he has. When my SO happens to adore someone
else, that is just fine. I know that some people have a problem
sharing like that, but that isn't me. It doesn't seem like Janet was
unaware of Heather's presence or Stephen's feelings for her, so why
would she be upset to find out more about it? After all, she still is
with him.
Some of you liked Janet far too much. <s> I'd take the blame for that,
except the Janets that I've let control my life are oh so likeable, so
strong, so independent, they're fucking attractive on their own. <eg
to Qickless> I'm loath to more than try exposing her. I'm scared to
death to really sling some mud at Janets.
My kind of girl. Not exactly, but I've known more than a few
(including sisters) who share some of that behavior. I figure that it
is normal and likeable.
More sex for Jeff and Qickless (and Henri). Perhaps, in another
story. One written by a Janet. For Steve, like me, the largest sex
organ amongst humans, the most sensitive indeed, is certainly the
brain.
Of course it is. But that doesn't mean we don't enjoy observing
things in the intimate moments. Maybe Stephen felt a bit odd trying
to write about that part. Of course, he knew what happened after the
shower. The rest of us have to fill in the details with our own
fantasies.
Except that we might want to imagine someone other than those two.
The story might set the mood, but the follow-up is something else.
The reason this is hard is that I feel defensive, pedantic even. I
missed a lot of things in the writing, and I didn't really pull it off
for most of you at all, not what I wanted. There is no easy fix for
that. [I've already added the s on princes and the et on jan.] The
rest was obviously more in my head than on the paper. It's a bit like
adding just the right amount of salt into a stew to make it sweet
without so much it tastes offensive.
True. But some of us like more spicy stuff, and find a lot of food
too bland for our tastes.
The Princess and Janet street sign was OK for me. Just that it
needed an introduction if the writer was trying to be clear.
Not enough! OMG! The things one sees when reading over what one's
writ.
The cure might be, right at the end, to double line ======== and
write:
What shit! What fucking crap this is! And, duh, he leaves it
underneath the cushion of his couch? He's fucking blonde or what!
Okay. My side. The fucking truth about the three of us and ripping
off the sign. And then I'll post it on the fucking Internet and see
whose laughing then.
First off, since Steve's too bland to tell you who I am, I'm Janet. I
am the reigning champ at a singles badminton ...
and so on for a page or two, the story from her side ... and maybe even
some ever fucking explicit fucking, Janet style. I'll think about it
on the plane.
Now that's enough for sure.
Of course.
It does depend on how she feels about the whole situation. I figure
that your Janet would react that way, upset and all even though she
has some affection for Stephen.
It is hard to be sure, though. A "Janet" sort of person I know told
me that she lived with guys for sex, not love. She felt no more for
them than any other roommate/friend, maybe even less. She might think
she was in love for a week or two, but after that, it was just lust,
not love.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: dennyw
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 15:30:40 -0700
On 8 Jun 2002 23:05:58 -0700, [email protected] (john) held forth,
saying:
I'm off to see Seattle. Raise high the
Kingdome, Carpenters.
Well, how about the new Seahawk Stadium on the site where the Kingdome
used to be? Take in a Mariners game at Safeco Field - possibly the
best ballpark in baseball.
email me if you wish; I could suggest some things ...
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: Souvie
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:19:58 -0400
On Mon, 3 Jun 2002 09:40:25 -0400, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote:
The following is our 41st contribution to the FishTank. Thank you to those
who continue to support this effort. This story is 2111 words in length.
John has tentatively coded it (ROM) Standard FishTank guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
Very late, but better late than never, maybe? <hopeful smile>
Positive: I like the beginning. The image of the red stop sign being
used as coffee table. I'm also a sucker for start at the end, and
then go back and fill in the blank kind of stories.
Positive: The adrenalin rush when the stop sign was stolen. I remember
how it was to do things that were "forbidden" when I was younger, and
I thought that johndear got the feeling down just right.
Negative: Can't think of anything at the moment.
- Souvie
From: dennyw
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:54:33 -0700
On Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:19:58 -0400, Souvie <[email protected]>
held forth, saying:
I thought that johndear got the feeling down just right.
Oh, you're just partial to the nym.
-denny- (curmudgeon)
"There are two tragedies in life.
One is to lose your heart's desire. The other is to gain it."
- G.B. Shaw
From: Souvie
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 16:57:12 -0400
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From: Father Ignatius
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 17:37:29 +0200
"Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
#1. I liked this piece because it was trying to tell the story of a developing relationship. It takes the time and trouble to build characters and situation.
#2. Some nice exposition of keenly-observed reality. The little touches of wry humour are appreciated.
Nice
#1. There was much pointless, self-indulgent intrusion of the narrator and his narrational devices into the narrative. They add nothing, distract, and finally annoy.
story should commence.
and so on, and on.
#2 Clarity of exposition:
Does this sentence have meaning? If so, what is it? And why is the meaning not accessible to the reader?
Gawd, what a long run!
Nat
"Father Ignatius" <Father Ignatius at ANTISPAMhot mail dot com> http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Stories.html The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 13:04:25 -0500
On Mon, 3 Jun 2002 09:40:25 -0400, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote:
First, I like the whole story, the romantic pursuit and all of the details. The way it is told through tiny episodes is a little jarring (needs smoothing, that is a place for improvement) but it overall illustrates the key bits in making the romance happen.
We get to see Heather visually, at least a little. The description doesn't seem very precise, but it is there. Janet shows up only as personality and actions, which makes a contrast. Was Steve more interested in Heather's body than her personality? Or else, when they got to be friends the relationship stayed that way?
Ripping off signs is a fun thing.
OK, it is really that easy to do. Not sure about taking the whole pole - hereabouts they are well set in the ground, not something to pull out. But the sign and top are pretty easy if you have the right tools.
Naming streets after people's names only encourages this. Plus we happen to have an "Easy Street" which seems like a prime target.
The whole sign ripping off thing might be juvenile, but it is also a kind of risk. I think that there are more fun risks, if you like taking chances and are exhibitionistic.
This part is confusing to me. I think that the "she wasn't there" was Heather, but it isn't so clear from what follows, because it turns clearly into Janet (her name).
By this point it seems clear that Janet stayed and Heather bowed out. Not running into either of them again, though I can't be sure why.
Minor improvement: more sex in the sex scene :-) I know, it is well implied, but to me the kicker in the romance is that whole first time together situation. Before that, they didn't even date, so changing from friends to semi-permanent lovers could have a lot more details in that part. Maybe I'm greedy? But to me, that is a pretty big part in a sex story romance (as opposed to plain romance stories, where we can skip the sex details just fine).
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Qickless
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: 3 Jun 2002 11:58:50 -0700
Great piece of writing!
"Okay, her eyes were warm and brown. I notice eyes. They weren't that hurt or mean. Maybe quiet, just a bit. The kind of eyes that you could look at over corn flakes half a life and never lose your interest, the kind that sparkle even when they're half-asleep, just waking up or tuckered out from chasing kids all day."
I love that!
I love the way you slowly contrast those two girls in the story, I love the way you begin and end, I love the way you build up, I fucking love Janet!
Even though you twist the narrative about, I found this story to be uncomplicated, and that in itself is a very good thing. I got the idea that you were trying to merge Janet and Heather into a single person, the loss of one somehow compensated by the other.
Perhaps you could rephrase this?
"More abrasive hardly needs a mention. (That line's superfluous, as well.)"
coz, when I came about there, the story stalled for a long while on that line. It sorta interuppted the narrative.
To conclude, I think this is a very mature piece of work, it is a refreshing change from the stories that I've read, my only suggestion would be to couch the whole story in a little more colloquial aura, I don't know how better to explain this, but what I mean is something like introduce a wee bit more spice to the narrative. I don't know if you can do it without spoiling the whole guy-image of Stephen however.
Very very good.
Qickless,
http://asstr.org/~qickless
"Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...
From: celia batau
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 17:43:03 -0700
hi Qickless!
"Qickless" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
metaphors are good (and your story is good too even though we think we missed the imaginary part). :) but metaphor needs a key. a map. or something in the story to help align the reader. otherwise no one would know that velvet means softness, richness, heaviness, or something else. don't have to explain, just little something to nudge. we use tons of metaphor and interconnections in our stories that most prolly would never understand, but they're there with shadows to hint at the others. you said you're fixing the flow, but that's what we think we missed in your story to help us understand (you explained she was rich and getting dressed, then the next paragraph she was arriving somewhere. we didn't see anything to suggest that the final mirror was the same one as the beginning, you know?)
but then we're still trying to figure our DrSpin's Monsoon. <sigh> :)
yay Qickless! :)
-celia the never gives up girl
celia batau's story site: http://www.myplanet.net/pinataheart/stories.htm.
make my outsides match my insides
kill the pain that dwells within
make the tears flow from my eyes
instead of from my skin
-Laura
From: oosh
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 02:22:09 +0000 (UTC)
[email protected] (Qickless) wrote in news:[email protected]:
Sorry to be so stupid.
O.
From: Tesseract
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: 4 Jun 2002 01:22:57 -0700
"Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...
I liked it overall. The technique of jumping back and forth in time helps keep it interesting while not revealing too much of the characters at once. And it sets up the twist. We first meet Janet but I get the impression that he doesn't really like her. Then we meet and learn to love Heather. But he ends up with ...
The self denigration is also a nice touch, but, as some others have said, I think it's a bit overdone.
I like the way the dialogue flows with the story, but I got lost with the dialogue near the end and had to work at figuring out who said what.
This is not a big problem but I think there are some things at which a reader should not have to work. Symbolism, deeper themes, yeah, but not parsing the story.
Of course it could use more sex, but that could be said of most stories.:)
Tesseract
From: Desdmona
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 16:26:13 -0400
John~
This is a wonderfully, naive story written in a sophisticated way. It's simplicity of boy meets two girls and ends up with one, always wondering "what if" about the other is told in such a way it has oomph! I like it a lot. The problem is I want to like it more, but confusion gets in my way. After a second reading, most of the fuzziness was clear, but I'm wondering if some simple changes wouldn't prevent confusion all together, such as changing some of the "she's" and "hers" to actual names.
Instead of "That's where I met her, met them both, I guess. Heather first, a year ago almost, so I should start with her.
How about "That's where I met them both. Heather and Janet, but Heather first, a year ago almost, so I should start with her."
And
"Of course, she wasn't there. Never was again. I was glad, at first, she wasn't. I would have felt too guilty. That night we stole the sign, I screwed things up completely. I'm still not sure just how I did. I tried to take her home."
Changes to "Of course Heather wasn't there. Never was again. I was glad at first, she wasn't. I would have felt too guilty. The night we stole the sign, I screwed things up completely. I'm still not sure how I did. I tried to take Janet home ..."
You also might consider losing the nickname - Jan - or maybe use it more than once. Although I think if other things are cleared up, then I might not have stopped to wonder if this was a completely different character.
A couple of other things that could be fixed to clear away confusion:
"Princes St. S." and "Janet Ct." Just like that, the one above the other."
I think this is meant to be Princess St. At this point in the story, it was vague why it was such a cool thing to have both street signs.
And
"The van rolled smoothly onto Jasper Ave., flooding us with neon. Mission accomplished. Janet straightened up, but left her fingers resting on my thigh. "Fucking A," she chimed in celebration.
Heather didn't say a word. I couldn't see where she was driving."
If he couldn't see where she was driving, how did he know the van rolled smoothly onto Jasper Ave.?
And finally,
"The table's kind of weird, of course, and tippy, but it's here to stay, 'cause Janet made it. I love it dearly, really. (I'd never want to let this out to Janet, though; she's way more fragile than you'd think.) It's something stolen, something secret. Like a memory of soft, brown eyes."
I'm trying to understand this paragraph better. I've decided it's meant to say that the table stays because Janet stays. But because you've put the parenthetical phrase after the "I love it dearly, really ..." I thought at first he didn't want Janet to know he loved the table, but of course he means he doesn't want Janet to know his reasons for loving the table.
In circumspect, it seems like I've pointed out a lot, but in my mind it all points to the same thing - clearing away confusion. I may be missing some point that makes areas of vagueness important to the story, so if I have, I apologize.
The story is really good, too good to be thought less of, if simple changes can prevent it.
And now I'm afraid I've given the impression I didn't like the story, but the truth is - I loved it - especially after the second reading.
Thank you, John, for your willingness to contribute to the FishTank. We're lucky to have you join us.
Des
From: Bradley Stoke
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: 4 Jun 2002 14:22:54 -0700
John
What makes this story is its rhythm. It jogs along. Well paced. Fluid. Back and forth. The conversation is natural. The structure is just right. Not a bad story at all.
I've seen some of your critiques for other submissions to the Fish Tank, and from the general intelligence and perceptiveness of your comments, I wasn't at all surprised that your story was so well-structured and fluid.
As is the nature of these things: first the praise and then the nits.
My most favourite bit of all is the jogging scene. It captured very well those snatched moments and repetitions. That was done exceptionally well. And the first time I've seen it in any piece of fiction, so there's a fair chance this was absolutely original. So congratulations for achieving something that's not that easy to do.
The second major plus for me is the overall conversational style. I might have thought it laid on the "fuck"s a bit heavily, but I guess a lot of people do say "fuck" a lot. I do when I've had a bit too much to drink. So, what the fuck! The style was just right. You handled it with incredible fluency. It was like sitting in someone's room while he lets forth on something or other. (Although you wisely moderated the style for the jogging scenes).
My only major concern was motive. Just why did Steven and Janet want to drag Heather into stealing a traffic sign? Perhaps the initial paragraph is all the explanation I needed. But if this Janet is such an oddball, perhaps we needed to know a bit more about her to make her actions more credible.
My other concern was just why it was necessary to get Heather in particular involved at all. Again a motive question. Does it really take three people to steal a traffic sign? (I must confess my ignorance here. I've never even stolen a traffic cone!)
However, motive schmotive. It gave a lovely opportunity for us to get to know Heather better. And although at the end, I wasn't sure I knew Heather's personality particularly well, she sounds like a very attractive woman to me. And there aren't enough attractive women in the stories submitted to ASSM.
Bradley Stoke
For More : http://www.asstr.org/~Bradley_Stoke
(mirror: http://bradley-stoke.fsn.net)
From: Tesseract
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: 5 Jun 2002 00:00:50 -0700
[email protected] (Bradley Stoke) wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...
<snip>
One to steal the sign, one to provide moral (immoral?) support and one to drive the getaway car. People seldom do really stupid things without someone else to egg them on.
Which reminds me - This was Janet's idea. Why didn't she do the actual deed?
Tesseract
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 12:46:03 -0500
On 5 Jun 2002 00:00:50 -0700, [email protected] (Tesseract) wrote:
The moral support person also handles the tools and helps carry the things away. They are not light :-)
Maybe she wanted her friends to get naughty. She was already willing to do it; there is a thrill to getting someone "nice" to break the rules.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: celia batau
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 22:43:47 -0700
hi Des and John!
"Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
pozzie one: we liked the conversational style. if you read it fast and don't go back to reread the part you missed, it carries a strong conversational style and the funky grammar works. :)
pozzie two: the part in the back of the van was good. :)
neggie one: the story sems to assume that the reader knows Janet. she isn't mentioned in the "them" of the second paragraph. her "Janet saids" are completely left out of the dialogue, and the part where the three meet by the fountain is presented in a way that suggests all three already knew each other. and even Janet's whole introduction is left out. we didn't think the very first paragraph counted.
neggie two. the first sentence of the second paragraph. we liked it the first time we read it. was kind of "eh" the second time, and didn't like it at all the third time we read it. :)
thanks for sharing the story. :)
-celia
From: PleaseCain
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: 07 Jun 2002 23:26:52 GMT
The voice sounds genuine, his self-effacement and self-absorption at once, and so the story has a flair that keeps us reading. You've vested your narrator with a lot of personality. Finally, you captured the sentimental longings of lost love, because he really wanted to be with Heather instead of Janet, didn't he? No small feat, there.
The dialogue of the third segment (beginning with "'Princes St. S.' and 'Janet Ct.'") is confusing, needs attributions - three-way conversations, like three-way sex, requires extra care to keep straight between writer and reader. (By the way, I assume that the street name is supposed to be "Princess St. S." as mentioned later in the story.) I am still unclear as to why they nicked those particular signs: "Janet" is easy enough, but does "Princess" also refer to Janet, as in "Princess Janet," or is it a nickname for Heather? I think the answer is the former, but the words Princess and Janet are not used in conjunction with each other elsewhere in the story, and so I have my doubts.
What you accomplished with the voice is the most significant thing, the natural tone that is lively and easy to read (but not so to write, I know). It will keep me looking for more of your stories.
Cain
From: H. Jeckyll
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: 8 Jun 2002 06:32:27 -0700
This is an exercise, in a couple of ways, the first being an accomplished writer telling a story from the POV of a naive story teller, the shifting back and forth in time, leaving things out and having to return to them, etc. Personal, off topic statements. I'm not saying Huck Finn or anything (I wouldn't be that bold), but it reads as a legitimate draft of the narrator's. It's very well done.
The second is the love story. So much is invested in Heather, who is thoroughly nice and likeable, but >pow< suddenly she is gone because, frankly, she can't bring herself to compete with Janet's dynamism. She's a lot like Steve, needing someone else to move her story along (e.g., she'd actually noticed Steve, though he didn't know it; we know this because she tells him later; she's a lot like him that way).
Frankly I didn't like Heather's disappearance fron the story, but it was deliberate, so I don't know that I can "complain." This isn't a "neggie" as we say, because it doesn't detract from the story. It's a constituent part of the story. I don't like that aspect of the story, but I can't chastise JohnDear for not writing exactly the story I want to read.
Things like that really do happen in life, and JohnDear wants to follow the dynamics of relationships, where the active, non-introspective, headstrong really do win. It's not easy being shy. It is easy for Steve to let someone else (Janet of course) run his life. He'd never have done anything with Heather, I think, and - reading into this - I think Heather leaves not because she sees them making out, or because she is put off by the petty pilferage, but because she recognizes that Janet gets what she wants, and she doesn't.
Neggie: More sex! (well, there are supposed to be things to "improve") Suggestion: Write Heather's story someday.
H. Jekyll
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: 08 Jun 2002 15:34:53 GMT
H Jekyll writes:
Yes. Otherwise, for all we know, Janet turned her in, and she's been serving time these past months for sign theft.
- Mat Twassel
From: celia batau
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 14:13:46 -0700
hi Mat!
"mat twassel" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
<gasp> and she's been passed around for a pack of cigarettes and a bottle of nail polish!
<fans herself>
-cb
celia batau's story site: http://www.myplanet.net/pinataheart/stories.htm.
Dame cafe con leche. Dame cafe con leche. -don't remember but it's a good song
From: john
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: 8 Jun 2002 23:05:58 -0700
Dear everyone,
This will be more difficult by far than the writing of the story. Of course, thank you. It a heady experience, a head-swelling experience, and also humbling.
First off, admissions. Thanks Des. The "s" in Princess was an oversight; and Jan was just bad judgement. I write in rhythms [thank you, those that noticed that] and sometimes I sacrifice the meaning just to make the metre come out right. Bad judgement like I said.
Almost all the rest, the too long sentences, the drab asides, the indecision was (Father I forgive me) my intention. Not just the ones you all discovered, but awful things like "real a meal", "atop a drop." The burbs were like Siberia! Not to mention alliterations, "plethora of pick-up lines", "memorize the moment." (Thank you, Henri! I just read your comment. But then you've had some practice with my mind.) You were all too kind, too generous. You, all of you, write much too well to be forgiving of such stuff. Except ...
I somehow thought that line would flash much louder than it did. I meant the story to be Steven's first draft. And I meant that to be the real story. As Des and Cain, I think, mostly understood, it is a confession that he's written, one that his new gf Janet wouldn't be all that pleased to read. I thought somehow that you, like me, as secret writers would read "not getting caught" as something that we all have tried to do. Our vandalism is erotica. Stephen is a pretty uncool guy. But he takes a chance and writes a story, a love story about a woman that he'd met, how he'd "been caught" by someone very different, someone so jagged she takes anything she wants (right on again dear jekyl), yet vulnerable enough (Stephen suspects) to be hurt by his first attempt at fiction.
Why is it a "first" draft only? I think the unthinkable must have happened, the thing that many of us dread. A spouse or offspring or a friend or gf sees a paper out of place or a computer file left open. It's the only reason I can think of why Stephen wouldn't polish this, his quiet ode to Heather.
Tagging Janet? Very observant, Celia. Not once. But not one speech of her's without the f word either. Not one. Heather is too sweet to use that word. Stephen (until he's caught!) finds it abrasive too, makes the point that the expletives are hers alone.
Some of you liked Janet far too much. <s> I'd take the blame for that, except the Janets that I've let control my life are oh so likeable, so strong, so independent, they're fucking attractive on their own. <eg to Qickless> I'm loath to more than try exposing her. I'm scared to death to really sling some mud at Janets.
Brad's motive thing. <sigh. I missed again.> Stephen wanted Heather there ... because he wanted Heather there. Janet probably gave a flying f about the sign, in retrospect; she had her sights on Steve. She knew that she could ease out Heather when the time was ripe. Heathers never make a fuss. (Mine Got, Henri did you hack into my computer and read this letter.) Janet wanted to do something, anything with Steve that would loosen him up a bit and scare those pretty Heather eyes away.
More sex for Jeff and Qickless (and Henri). Perhaps, in another story. One written by a Janet. For Steve, like me, the largest sex organ amongst humans, the most sensitive indeed, is certainly the brain.
The reason this is hard is that I feel defensive, pedantic even. I missed a lot of things in the writing, and I didn't really pull it off for most of you at all, not what I wanted. There is no easy fix for that. [I've already added the s on princes and the et on jan.] The rest was obviously more in my head than on the paper. It's a bit like adding just the right amount of salt into a stew to make it sweet without so much it tastes offensive.
I'll see you in a month. I'm off to see Seattle. Raise high the Kingdome, Carpenters. As Ares comes the writer!
Enough,
John
Not enough! OMG! The things one sees when reading over what one's writ.
The cure might be, right at the end, to double line ======== and write:
What shit! What fucking crap this is! And, duh, he leaves it underneath the cushion of his couch? He's fucking blonde or what!
Okay. My side. The fucking truth about the three of us and ripping off the sign. And then I'll post it on the fucking Internet and see whose laughing then.
First off, since Steve's too bland to tell you who I am, I'm Janet. I am the reigning champ at a singles badminton ...
and so on for a page or two, the story from her side ... and maybe even some ever fucking explicit fucking, Janet style. I'll think about it on the plane.
Now that's enough for sure.
John
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 10:15:26 -0500
On 8 Jun 2002 06:32:27 -0700, [email protected] (H. Jekyll) wrote:
But that can be confusing, because a rough draft feel can make the story feel rougher, harder to read. I think it is a valid thing to try to do. It just is kind of easy for the reader to get distracted by that.
Opening with a false attribution to the fictional narrator might make that more clear.
Though I think the most impressive (or at least attention-getting) use of a false narrator is Norman Spinrad's "Iron Dream", 'written' by the famous science fiction writer Adolf Hitler, along with a review :-)
However, once you accept that the story is a somewhat naive telling by the narrator, that works fine. I've used language in some stories, in the prose telling, to reflect the narrator's POV rather than my own conversational style. I'll do it again, too.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 10:52:33 -0500
On 8 Jun 2002 23:05:58 -0700, [email protected] (john) wrote:
That line isn't perfectly clear to me, and to others. It looks like the editorial comments we writers make, and hope won't get left in the story after editing. A bit more thought, and I could see that it was intentional. But it didn't stand out as such. If the tale had a byline from stephen at the start, maybe that would help clarify it?
Not getting caught, only in part. It depends on who is going to see the thing. My writing I intend to be seen, and I have some people I feel safe showing it to. Without knowing who Stephen intended to tell the story to, it is a little harder to see that; writing is an attempt to communicate.
My SOs are big on the list of people who I would show my stories to. A private story, a letter to a different friend, I might let out some secrets I'm not yet willing to tell my SO. But OTOH, I've had really good experiences telling my SO all, and don't have a big habit of keeping secrets like that.
Maybe. But then, why would Janet be all so upset? A bit unhappy, but probably not so much as to ruin the relationship. The tale seemed pretty positive to me. I liked Janet a lot.
Of course, I'm not so much like Stephen, so maybe I don't get, in my own heart, the problems he has. When my SO happens to adore someone else, that is just fine. I know that some people have a problem sharing like that, but that isn't me. It doesn't seem like Janet was unaware of Heather's presence or Stephen's feelings for her, so why would she be upset to find out more about it? After all, she still is with him.
My kind of girl. Not exactly, but I've known more than a few (including sisters) who share some of that behavior. I figure that it is normal and likeable.
Of course it is. But that doesn't mean we don't enjoy observing things in the intimate moments. Maybe Stephen felt a bit odd trying to write about that part. Of course, he knew what happened after the shower. The rest of us have to fill in the details with our own fantasies.
Except that we might want to imagine someone other than those two. The story might set the mood, but the follow-up is something else.
True. But some of us like more spicy stuff, and find a lot of food too bland for our tastes.
The Princess and Janet street sign was OK for me. Just that it needed an introduction if the writer was trying to be clear.
Of course.
It does depend on how she feels about the whole situation. I figure that your Janet would react that way, upset and all even though she has some affection for Stephen.
It is hard to be sure, though. A "Janet" sort of person I know told me that she lived with guys for sex, not love. She felt no more for them than any other roommate/friend, maybe even less. She might think she was in love for a week or two, but after that, it was just lust, not love.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: dennyw
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 15:30:40 -0700
On 8 Jun 2002 23:05:58 -0700, [email protected] (john) held forth, saying:
Well, how about the new Seahawk Stadium on the site where the Kingdome used to be? Take in a Mariners game at Safeco Field - possibly the best ballpark in baseball.
email me if you wish; I could suggest some things ...
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: Souvie
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:19:58 -0400
On Mon, 3 Jun 2002 09:40:25 -0400, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote:
Very late, but better late than never, maybe? <hopeful smile>
Positive: I like the beginning. The image of the red stop sign being used as coffee table. I'm also a sucker for start at the end, and then go back and fill in the blank kind of stories.
Positive: The adrenalin rush when the stop sign was stolen. I remember how it was to do things that were "forbidden" when I was younger, and I thought that johndear got the feeling down just right.
Negative: Can't think of anything at the moment.
- Souvie
From: dennyw
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:54:33 -0700
On Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:19:58 -0400, Souvie <[email protected]> held forth, saying:
Oh, you're just partial to the nym.
-denny- (curmudgeon)
"There are two tragedies in life.
One is to lose your heart's desire. The other is to gain it." - G.B. Shaw
From: Souvie
Re: Not Getting Caught, by john
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 16:57:12 -0400
On Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:54:33 -0700,
[email protected] wrote:
I'm partial to a lot of things. <g>
- Souvie
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