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From: PleaseCain
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 25 Feb 2002 19:19:19 GMT
Your imagery like caramel mud or being mad as a cut snake, some of your verbs,
your nice handling of present tense - all give the story immediacy. I also like
the fact that you let us readers work regarding the subject matter, to fill in
the blanks on our own, without being too vague. It's a fine line between a
good story such as this, and an unsatisfying one. Also, the sex carries a
primal quality that reflects the muck and storm and anger in the air. Good
touch.
That said, it probably wouldn't hurt to thread in a bit more explanation or
backstory, as long as you can work such details into the text without hindering
the flow (otherwise, I wouldn't do it).
The lead paragraph is more confusing than inviting to me; after the first two
sentences described the weather, the third sentence was too cryptic. I reread
that third sentence a couple times, thinking "how can a river be stuck, trapped
and stripped of purpose?" The statement becomes clear five sentences later,
but I would rather you cut the first paragraph entirely. Or at least the third
and fourth sentences.
Muuuuuhahahaha! I get to go first. Apparently. I hope.
1) 2 positive comments
Father Nat clambers unsteadily onto the banquette, ululating
embarrassingly and sloshing single malt broadcast. "This," he says
owlishly, wagging his finger at the assembled multitude in that
particular manner that everyone finds so annoying, "is what we must
show the next self-indulgent fucker who comes down the pike and says,
'I don't like polishing stories, it bores me,' or whatever. This,
kiddies, is what it's all about. The Real Thing. Audience-indulgent
writing. The kid's doing all the right things."
"There is a peculiar pleasure, as someone once remarked (let's say it
was Mark Twain: it usually is), in watching someone doing something
difficult and doing it really well. The short-short-story (no typo)
is one of the most fiendishly difficult things to do at all, let alone
well - and let any scoffer first try his or her hand at at a pastiche
of, say, H.H. Munro ("Saki"). Of 'Tobermory,' frinstance, or 'Sredni
Vashtar.' And here, kiddies, we have a little gem of a
short-short-story. Well fucking done, that boy."
Father Nat paused for a small, post-prandial belch.
"Oh, shit, what was the other thing? Oh, yes. I remember we had a
thread a while back about what it takes to write a good story. Joyce
eventually killed it ..."
Father Nat squinted through the tobacco-smoke twilight into the the
back of the room, hoping Joyce was there. He waved, Justin Case.
" ...by posting a URL to an excellent essay the refrain of which was,
'But you still gotta have talent.' 'Smy other point [burrrp]. Kid's
got talent. He should think about going pro."
[There will be a small Brownie point for the boy or girl who can find
that post of Joyce's and a somewhat bigger one if they can find the
essay to which it adverted. We should have it on permanent display
around here, framed.]
2) 2 things to improve
1. Ace Dyson was not in the story.
2. The sex scene was coy.
From: dennyw
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 13:30:17 -0800
On 25 Feb 2002 11:40:32 -0800, [email protected] (Father
Ignatius) held forth, saying:
1. Ace Dyson was not in the story.
He's asleep in vehicle #3, having just polished his penultimate bottle
of malt.
"Father Ignatius" <[email protected]>
http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Stories.html
The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
+ This is a complete story by Dr. Spin ... He requests that we
+ show him no mercy in our comments. In fact, he suggests we pull
+ out our knuckle-dusters. (I'm going to have to borrow someone
+ else's.)
Oh, not me. I've been gunning for this Lothario since Day 1. Lock and
load, baby; let's roll! [TM]
But first, a moment of silence for our collective dicta:
+ 1) 2 positive comments 2) 2 things to improve 3) Try not to
+ repeat!
Now: this is, of course, an exercise in voice. (I mean, it's a story,
yes, but the story calls attention to itself mostly through its
voice.) Sparse, stripped sentences heavy on the visual cues and light
on interpretation, the present tense (and as an aside: how can people
make blanket statements like "I hate stories written in the present
tense?" I mean, de gustibus and all that, and yes, it can suck, but it
can also be done very well, and there's an immediacy it gives you - as
well as a certain informality, of a story being told, rather than
written; an air of having been tossed off insouciantly rather than
crafted and sweated over and agonized [though one may very well indeed
have sweated and agonized to carefully craft that air of
insouciance] - I mean, it's another tool in the kit, and one should not
be so quick as to toss it away or reject out of hand the use of it by
others) so deftly setting the scene - take a look. After the basic
setting is laid before us: bridge, rivers, rain, stalled cars, mud mud
and mud, after (if you will) the opening establishing shot, we get -
. Suddenly something different. Hoarse shouting, incoherent. A
. person wearing wet white clothes jerks and lollops down the line
. of vehicles, waving arms erratically, as mad as a cut snake.
Sentence fragments, but so what? We're in service to a higher calling
than Grammar 101, here. You've been lulled by all that "mud, mud,
mud," by the "nine muddy morose people" who mostly "sit in there
vehicles and wait," and then you're jerked, your attention is caught.
Something is different. What? Hoarse shouting. Okay, look - a person,
wet white clothes, lollops, mad as a cut snake. The basic information
you need to parse the scene is shot at you rapid-fire, presented
pretty much as it would occur to you were you there, in one of those
cars: your attention is caught, you hear something, you look. The tone
of voice, sentence and paragraph structure, the rhythm of the
words - all that is what's putting you there, in that scene - moreso
even than the visual cues. (Bonus points for "lollops." Onomatopoeia,
to boot.)
Note also what the voice doesn't do: it doesn't get in the way. Only
rarely does it presume to judge, or give us information that we
couldn't get by being there and seeing it ourselves - it tells us the
woman's skin is clammily cold to the man's touch; it tells us she has
a "sun-burst climax" and that she feels semen trickling down her
thigh, specific details particular to the sense of touch (or
otherwise) of one or another character. Other times, it does some
minor processing of the visual cues for us, but nothing we couldn't
guess ourselves: the collective voice of the woman's "dull audience":
"What's she saying? What's she doing? Christ, when will that fucking
rain stop?"; what runs through the (for want of a better word)
husband's mind as he waves her off dismissively: "He's had enough of
her antics." It does tell us how to read the way she takes off her
clothes: "She might be mad but she's not so crazy she'd drop her
clothes in the mud" - but lightly, suggesting more than telling,
really, making a quick point deftly and getting back the hell out of
the way. (To the extent that anything so attention-getting can be said
to be out of the way, but what is art or criticism without paradox?
- Back, Nicholas. Out of the way.)
So the voice? The voice is good. Pozzie numero uno.
Dva: the scenario. The setting, the show, the collective and singular
insanity of humans under pressure, the claustrophobia of the
relentless rain and the mud mud mud, the quick and nasty sex - "She
hangs to him limply, dizzy, stupid, while he pushes and grinds to his
own satisfaction" - all to the good. Masterful, even.
Unfortunately, these two pozzies are at war with each other.
The voice - the voice that distances us from the particulars of the
characters even as it embeds us in the particulars of the scene - that
voice works best, I think, in circumstances that are familiar to the
reader, and about which the reader can easily make assumptions. (Note
that it can either live up to these assumptions, or yank the rug out
from under them.) It is an objectifying technique, and is ideally
suited to giving us something new to see or think about something we'd
thought was familiar, dull, done to death. - But this circumstance,
this setting, this concatenation of characters and situation and rain
and mud, the madnesses, the problems, the desires stifled and
otherwise - this is wild, rich stuff, and I want to see more of it, all
of it, every bit. (I'm greedy, I am.) - I'm not saying, for inst, that
I want everything about the woman's relationship with her (presumed)
husband explained; nor am I saying I want her to ever say anything at
all to the man she fucks, but I do think the decision to go utterly
dialogueless was a mistake. (In this particular instance.) But more
than that: that final image, of the line of cars united in their
approbation, is powerful enough that it needs to come at the end of a
build-up; it needs something to stand in opposition to, to drive its
point home. We need to see the people in this line AS people, not
solely as a dulled audience. We need to begin earlier in this story,
or begin in the same place, but sketch out more specifics as we go
along, about this car, or that. Show us the faces of each before
melding them into a honking queue. The form is masterful, and
well-constructed, but it ill-serves its beautiful content. (Not, mind
you, that one can ever cleanly separate the two, but let's pretend we
can.)
Neggie two, and I'll cheat and lump some minor considerations
together. The queue and the woman's place in it is unclear at the
start. The establishing shot does not really place us much of anywhere
in the queue at the start, and so I assumed we "were" at the head of
it; thus, when the woman came "down" the queue, I saw her walking from
back to front, and this was reinforced by the ambiguous line "She gets
to the back of the queue, and as she retraces her steps she starts
taking off her clothes." - It's hard to tell if she retraces her steps
AS she gets to the back of the queue, or AFTER. I'd read it as AS, and
so when she ends up at the FRONT of the queue, I was confused. A
little more clarity at the opening will fix this problem - which, I
concede, might not have been a problem at all for some readers.
Also: there is a conceptual rhythm - a structural rhythm - as well as
the more usual rhythm of cadence and tone and timbre and all that
physical stuff. That ineffable conceptual rhythm falters in a couple
of passages, but most notably here:
. He has dark growth of beard on his face. He is wiry and
. weather-hardened, a man of remote distance. He snarls with
. pleasure, and he has a missing front tooth.
The sound of it is fine, full of roughly simple music. But "He snarls
with pleasure, and he has a missing front tooth" - that nags. We're
calling on two different senses in that last sentence - after a sally
of visual cues, and a judgement call based on those cues ("a man of
remote distance," and were I feeling less charitable, I'd quibble with
the seeming redundancy there; there's a better way to put that, I
think); then a sound cue, and then right back to sight. Which is fine,
but a bit off-putting in the same sentence. Also: the snippet about
his missing tooth is something that we discover BECAUSE he snarled in
pleasure; joining it with an "and" like that downplays the causality.
- The "and" would work if we were more fully in her point of view, and
the sentence ran thusly: "He snarls with pleasure, and she sees he has
a missing front tooth" - and I suspect the "and" is a holdover from
that common-enough construction. But I would militate STRONGLY against
putting "she sees" in there. Those two words would wreck the entire
mood (and purpose) that's been built up thus far. Instead, keep to
short, declarative sentences, and break the two pieces of information
each to its own: "He snarls with pleasure. One of his front teeth is
missing." Or even "He snarls with pleasure. There's a gap where one of
his front teeth should be." Something like that.
But overall, we have a curious problem here - at least, as I see it: a
fine handle, and a fine blade, but the knife itself isn't all it could
be. I think we need two knives, each with the blade and handle that
suits it. - Hey! It'd mean more stories from Spin, right? And this is
a bad thing how?
There. Dust off my hands, freshen my drink. Ah. Next?
Best,
- n.
"When they steadied, I looked at them slantwise. Poets will know what
I mean by slantwise: it is a way of looking through a difficult word
or phrase to discover the meaning lurking behind the letters. I saw
that the placard was a titulus, the Roman superscription nailed above
the heads of criminals at the place of execution, explaining their
crime. I found myself reading out: DOMITIANUS CAESAR LEGATOS XTI
VILITER INTERFECIT."
such brilliance, left behind:
http://www.asstr.org/~nickurfe/ift/
http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
+ This is a complete story by Dr. Spin ... He requests that we
+ show him no mercy in our comments. In fact, he suggests we pull
+ out our knuckle-dusters. (I'm going to have to borrow someone
+ else's.)
You very, very quietly added the apostrophe, thinking that no-one would
notice or, if they did, they would be too much of a gentleman to refrain
from commenting.
Think again, bright angel.
"Father Ignatius" <[email protected]>
http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Stories.html
The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: celia batau
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:49:43 -0800
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 things to improve
3) Try not to repeat!
pozzie one: the imagery is beautiful. :) esp how the grit or the slime of
the mud seems to coat everything.
pozzie two: we like how the rain and the river form a frame around the
scene. like a moment in time and in place.
neggie one: narration is a bit too vague. there's nothing to hold to. we had
to assemble the line of cars, the river, and the characters together. maybe
the rain was supposed to fog that, make things indestinct, but the story
itself seems clear and concrete enough that it conflicts. like "two days and
no way out" suggests a narrator or a pov in the story, but there's only a
roating perspective like a helicoptor circling the scene.
neggie two: communication. the woman's trying to communicate something. to
the man (dervish dance). to the ppl in the cars (pounding on windows.
throwing clothes on cars). to herself or the situation (hands on hips). to
the guy she has sex with (going back to her car after sex). also the
emphasis on how ordinary she is contrasted with her very unordinary
behavior. but we can't figure out what she's trying to communicate. are the
horns that? is it the strange combination of mud and rain that combine
through the woman?
um, we don't need it spelled out, and maybe we're just missing it, but maybe
something to latch onto?
"celia batau" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<952131851.25306@news3> ...
no way out" suggests a narrator or a pov in the story, but there's only a
roating perspective like a helicoptor circling the scene.
Isn't she wonderful?
neggie two: communication. the woman's trying to communicate something. to
the man (dervish dance). to the ppl in the cars (pounding on windows.
throwing clothes on cars). to herself or the situation (hands on hips). to
the guy she has sex with (going back to her car after sex). also the
emphasis on how ordinary she is contrasted with her very unordinary
behavior. but we can't figure out what she's trying to communicate. are the
horns that? is it the strange combination of mud and rain that combine
through the woman?
She was "bush-happy." It's a well-known condition although, I guess,
maybe not in urban California.
From: celia batau
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:43:04 -0800
"celia batau" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<952131851.25306@news3> ...
She was "bush-happy." It's a well-known condition although, I guess,
maybe not in urban California.
hmm, no. :) prolly not in california. the only "bush-happy" we have is from
too much marijuana. :)
-cb
celia batau's story site: http://www.myplanet.net/pinataheart/stories.htm.
"celia batau" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:952207048.807224@news3 ...
hi Nat!
"Father Ignatius" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] ...
"celia batau" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<952131851.25306@news3> ...
She was "bush-happy." It's a well-known condition although, I guess,
maybe not in urban California.
hmm, no. :) prolly not in california. the only "bush-happy" we have is
from
too much marijuana. :)
We have that, too, but it's not called "bush-happy" hereabouts, it's called
"goofed."
That's a short "oo," ufcawce.
And I worry that the phrase "too much marijuana" may have a null semantic
payload, all same "too much garlic."
"Father Ignatius" <[email protected]>
http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Stories.html
The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
Okay, I've been working on this for a day now. I don't want to repeat, so I
won't - although I think that Urfe has some wonderful observations into the POV.
I had to decide if my first instincts WRT my response were in reaction to the
"knuckle dusters" comments. I have a suspicion that Spin was, perhaps,
challenging us to look past his turn of phrase and wonderful grasp of language
to see that what he's done here is more show than substance.
'Monsoon' very much reminds me of one of the last times I was at the museum.
There's a wonderful exhibit of 'Modern Art' that goes on display a couple of
times each year. There are some marvelous pieces - stunningly beautiful use of
form and line and material. Stark, simplistic, harsh without being painful.
There are also some pieces in the collection that show what happens when an
artist tried too hard, and didn't quite have the talent to back it up.
Had 'Monsoon' been done by almost anybody else, it would easily have fallen
into the second group. As it stands, it's somewhere in between.
Now, a couple of positives first. Spin, you have a grasp of language and
rhythm that is almost unmatched amongst erotic writers, but you already know
this. I'm first struck by your word choices (lolloped) and your use of usual
words in unusual/unexpected ways. Much like Selena's 'Curtains,' you've
written someone real, not someone idealized. She's not beautiful or perfect,
and she shouldn't be. This isn't Kathleen Turner sliding down the mud slide
with whatshisname as they Romance the Stone. This is a woman who has been
stuck in a car for way too long surrounded by way too much monotony. This
helps the reader identify. And, it's a good thing.
Now, back to the 'modern art' thing. One of the best parts about going to the
exhibit is watching everyone else look at, and discuss, the wire pieces spaced
around the room. They all pretend to understand them, but what they're missing
is that there quite often isn't anything to understand. You're just supposed
to look at them and either like 'em or don't. The intent is make a statement,
not to draw the observer into a world. My first impression of 'Monsoon' is
that there is an attempt here to get that same shock-Art feel. It's the
present tense thing, primarily. You've written a visual scene here, and it
would work as a visual scene, but, imho, it doesn't work as a written piece.
The opening paragraphs are just as muddy as the river. We're all stuck in
it - this is one of the good things about the story. We're slodging through it
just like the trucks, and within a few sentences the reader feels the same
desperation to just get out as the woman feels.
However, you stagger your sentence tone too much. You start with this
neo-Indigenous sentence structure, limited articles and choppy transitions.
Then you switch to smooth flowing and highly descriptive sentences, even though
the story is still stuck waiting for the bridge to clear, and then you're right
back to the choppy structure. This would be much more effective if it actually
fit with the flow of the story.
There are some technical things that should be addressed, once the story flows
correctly, but I think that those would work themselves out during a rewrite.
I don't often find myself disagreeing with Nat WRT to these stories, but I
don't think this was " Audience-indulgent writing." The Real Thing,
absolutely, but I believe that this was more writer-indulgent writing. And, as
I said earlier, had it been done by anyone other than Spin (and perhaps a very
small handful of other writers) it would come across as self-indulgent, pompous
crap. However, Spin's got enough flash and mastery of phrase to make it appear
as though he's appealing to our more intellectual side ('look at the hand over
here, look at the hand, look at the hand, while I pull a rabbit out of your
ear")..
Not a bad thing, I suppose, and that part of what he's done, he's done very
well.
Alexis
Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different
speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing.
- Clive James
Had 'Monsoon' been done by almost anybody else, it would easily have
fallen
into the second group. As it stands, it's somewhere in between.
Ouch. Fucking ouch. The unkindest baby-seal-clubbing of all.
Now, a couple of positives first.
[Jaw-hanging gape] What went before wasn't negatives? [Shakes head
dazedly][Cups hands protectively over genitals][Crawls behind banquette and
screams like a girl]
There are some technical things that should be addressed, once the story
flows
correctly, but I think that those would work themselves out during a
rewrite.
self-indulgent, pompous crap.
as though he's appealing to our more intellectual side ('look at the hand
over
here, look at the hand, look at the hand, while I pull a rabbit out of
your
ear")..
Wow. Fucking wow.
Post of the Week.
In your ear, Spin. Apparently.
Oi! Stasya! May I draw The Golden Peeler Committee's attention to the fact
that Alexis appears to have worked through certain of her self-esteem
issues? Thank you.
Eskimo Boy is dead. Long live Pissy Little Bitch. [Applause] You go, girl.
Nat(wading, gobsmacked but incredibly turned on, through blood)
"So, baby, do you come here often?"
"Father Ignatius" <[email protected]>
http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Stories.html
The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
This week I'm posting a second submission. This is a complete story by Dr.
Spin. It is 1,033 words in length. He requests that we show him no mercy in our
comments. In fact, he suggests we pull out our knuckle-dusters. (I'm going to
have to borrow someone elses) Otherwise, same guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 things to improve
3) Try not to repeat!
Monsoon
by DrSpin
Gee whiz. You know, Nicholas and Alexis and celia and Father Nat, I
don't know what they used to say in your elementary school when
someone was taking too long at the water fountain, but in mine they
used to say, "Leave some for the ducks." How am I supposed to avoid
repetition when you've said such wonderful things?
All right. This story reads like something Graham Greene or V.S.
Naipaul or even Barbara Kingsolver wrote on far too much whiskey,
re-read in the morning, and stuffed in a drawer, unable to discard it
because it had such gorgeous promise, unable to publish it because it
wasn't quite there. Other people have already done the theoretical
bits (thanks a lot), so I'll get specific.
Positive: mud. The way you've set it up is a glory and a blessing to
the reader. Every time we see that word, we stop, struck dead in our
tracks, emotionally muted like the string of a piano. This, for
instance, just as we're starting to get into the rhythm of the
striptease: "She throws the wet bundle of her pants at a windscreen
but her aim is not good and it bounces away and falls off a fender and
into the mud." Mud again. Brick wall. Wonderful. (Also no commas,
oh my word that's good.)
Negative: you sometimes work a little too hard at the jarring images.
Sometimes they work perfectly - others have mentioned "mad as a cut
snake," and I'll mention "flattening her breasts against the glass,"
- but at other times they should be a tiny bit better coordinated.
Here, for instance: "She's not a young woman, nor yet old. She's just
a woman of less than medium height, with unremarkable breasts, broad
hips and backside, and strong, heavy thighs." If she's not young, nor
yet old, then why is the next descriptor about her height? That jars,
but in the wrong way. (If you took out "just," it might not, it has
just now occurred to me.) And why "strong" thighs? You've set it up
so that this woman's only characteristic of power is her madness,
communicated through her eyes. I think her thighs could just be
heavy. Same thing with her "fervour and passion," when she's fucking.
Perhaps synonyms for madness would be better.
Positive: the horns. Bip, bip, blare. For the woman? The
disappointment of not having gotten to see what must have happened in
the car? The frustration of being stuck by the bridge? It's utterly
ambiguous and completely right. I had the sense of having read it
before that I only get when something fits perfectly.
Negative: don't let us see into her husband's (? boyfriend's?) mind.
("He's had way too much of her in two days.") I do not wish to
trespass upon Nicholas's POV ground here, because he said it so
breathlessly, so impenetrably, and so well, but again, it jars in the
wrong way. We cannot see into the mind of the mad, and we cannot see
into the mud, and we cannot see into the mind of the utterly selfish
gap-toothed man. Don't spoil it by giving us someone peripheral to
see into.
First, negatives: The sex scene is OK but mechanical. Maybe that is
intentional, less passion involved perhaps than a good masturbation
session, but neither man nor woman seem to get into it that much.
Yes, she moves with passion, the narrator says, but something is
missing there for me. Maybe it is just a hint of her internal
feelings, desires, something to make it feel more intimate?
Not sure if that is really a negative, if the narrative isn't intended
to be blazingly hot.
Where did her shoes go? OK, I don't want to count that as a big
negative, I just wondered. I figure she was barefoot in the car,
otherwise, she took them off or lost them in the mud. Not a big
thing, hard for me to find a *big*negative about this story. Just a
general sign, the tale is about short snippets of imagery, but in a
sex story I'd like a bit more imagery about the main characters. The
stuff there is OK, though the woman is described a bit ambiguously -
intentionally I'd guess, making her seem "average" and therefore
ordinary.
The scene setting with little "sound bite" sentences makes the muddy
raining road come alive. We get drug into the mud with the people in
the cars, and the entertainment of a woman showing off for us - I
don't know which, if any, of the other car occupants we might be, nor
does it matter - is amazing in contrast.
The ending is so smooth, too. The interlude, running around naked in
the rain, then getting in a car and fucking a man she doesn't know,
merely is a break for all, even her man. He says nothing at the end,
just goes on waiting, as if her outburst were as natural as the
monsoon itself.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
Gee whiz. You know, Nicholas and Alexis and celia and Father Nat, I
don't know what they used to say in your elementary school when
someone was taking too long at the water fountain, but in mine they
used to say, "Leave some for the ducks."
Now they just pretty much say, "Ms. S?!?!? He's hogging all the water! Ms.
S!!!! Make him stop! Ms. S! You have to do the drink count!" However,
tomorrow I'm introducing "leave some for the ducks." Thanks.
Alexis.
Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different
speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing.
- Clive James
This week I'm posting a second submission. This is a complete story by Dr.
Spin. It is 1,033 words in length. He requests that we show him no mercy
in our
comments. In fact, he suggests we pull out our knuckle-dusters. (I'm going
to
have to borrow someone elses) Otherwise, same guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 things to improve
3) Try not to repeat!
Again, this will be a difficult story to avoid repetition on.
Two things to improve: (Since these are fresh in my mind)
1) As it stands the story has a rather major adverb and conjunction
problem. There are many places where 'the' should have been but wasn't, and
almost an equal number where it was used but shouldn't have been .... (i.e.)
Last line paragraph three would have read better with the addition "After
two days 'the' mud stinks like 'a' rotting animal. Second line, next
paragraph would read better without it .... "Relentless rain weighs down
shoulders, hunches bodies, turns talk (conversations?) inwards.
2) There are places where the wording or word tensing choices interrupt the
flow of the story ... "She's shouting at each of the cars as she passes by.
The rain has got heavier and she's not making sense." The second line here
needs restructuring, something more like "The rain has gotten ..." or "The
rain 'got' heavier, her words make no sense." (yep, I reworded more)
Later: "She gets into the car and closes the door" instead of 'and closes'
use 'closing' - says the same thing ... towards the end of the story, you
seem to over use 'and'.
Two Positive comments:
1) Though some may not feel so, I like that there is no reason or 'at
fault' ascribed to the fight. You don't know if she wanted some and he said
no, or he wanted some and she said no, or over his forgetfulness or her
housekeeping or whatever. Just as there is no reason given for the sex with
the stranger .... whether it is to satisfy her need or to hurt her man ....
it simply is.
2) The choice of scenes was good as well, in it's uniqueness ... stranded
motorists, driving unending rain, frayed tempers, emotional stress, base
despondency, all brought on by an unending cacophony of wet, of mud, and
(though it's not specifically mentioned) the ceaseless drumming of falling
drops on metal roofs, unchanging except in it's intensity.
It's got the makings of a good one, though in this incarnation it all seems
a bit rote and mechanical, not quite reaching magic, but coming very close.
Ray
From: oosh
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:21:19 GMT
2) There are places where the wording or word tensing choices
interrupt the flow of the story ... "She's shouting at each of the cars
as she passes by. The rain has got heavier and she's not making sense."
The second line here needs restructuring, something more like "The
rain has gotten ..." or "The rain 'got' heavier, her words make no
sense." (yep, I reworded more)
Just a remark about "gotten". For some strange reason, "gotten" seems to
have disappeared from British English, I think early in the C19. We would
say "the rain has got heavier," and this may be true in Australia also. As
far as I know, only the USA retains the original participle.
There are quite a few of these dialectal differences in English!
Some of them work the other way, too. The USA has invented some strange
past tense forms. I find "dove" (meaning "dived") extremely bizarre; also
"fit" as the past tense (we'd say "her dress fitted comfortably"); and
"drug" for "dragged"; and "spit" for "spat" - all of which I've seen
recently.
Just a remark about "gotten". For some strange reason, "gotten" seems to
have disappeared from British English, I think early in the C19. We would
say "the rain has got heavier," and this may be true in Australia also. As
far as I know, only the USA retains the original participle.
There are quite a few of these dialectal differences in English!
Some of them work the other way, too. The USA has invented some strange
past tense forms. I find "dove" (meaning "dived") extremely bizarre; also
"fit" as the past tense (we'd say "her dress fitted comfortably"); and
"drug" for "dragged"; and "spit" for "spat" - all of which I've seen
recently.
<sigh>
<deeper sigh>
<sad sigh, accompanied by a morose shake of the head>
Much of it comes down to formal use vs. informal use. "Dove" is most often
acceptable as an informal usage. So, I suspect that you'd be more likely to
see it 'properly' used in dialogue rather than in narrative prose (unless, of
course, the writer was attempting to convey an especially informal or
dialectical sense in the narrative. But that's another topic.)
"Spat" is still considered (in American English) to be the correct past tense
and past participal of spit.
<grumble> I debate even getting started on "drug vs. dragged." Okay, I'll
start. There IS no "drug" vs. "dragged" problem. "Drug" is NOT the past tense
or the past participal of "drag." "Drug" has been used, usually facetiously,
since about 1960 as the past tense and past participal of drag in the sense
that something was boring or annoying ("The lecture drug on for hours.").
Please note that I did not suggest that it was properly used in this manner.
Dragged is still considered THE standard past tense and past participal of
'drag.' Even in America.
I think what we're seeing is that writers are writing the way they speak.
Which is fine for dialogue and dialect. When conveying the spoken word, we
WANT it to 'sound right.' Unfortunately, this tendency has dribbled over to
all writing.
Alexis.
Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different
speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing.
- Clive James
I think what we're seeing is that writers are writing the way they
speak. Which is fine for dialogue and dialect. When conveying the
spoken word, we WANT it to 'sound right.' Unfortunately, this
tendency has dribbled over to all writing.
I admire your pugnacious attitude! Unfortunately, once these abuses have
gone on for 200 years or so, you just can't do anything about them. Once, it
was better to say "the rain has gotten heavier". Now, some quirky-minded
people say "the rain has got heavier". It's a tricky problem, I've got to
admit.
On 28 Feb 2002 06:02:52 GMT, [email protected] (Alexis
Siefert) wrote:
Hey, as long as they're standing out there, I'll keep chasing them down.
Ain't will NEVER be allowed, nor will double negatives. At least not from my
charges.
And, it's "one hundred," not "a hundred."
I seem to recall, back in the misty recesses of my past, that when I
was in about third or fourth grade, I couldn't decide if "himself" or
"hisself" was the proper usage, so, as an experiment (and as a child
who did not tend to ask questions), I used both terms interchangeably
in a school paper. IIRC, that particular question was not resolved by
that particular teacher.
RCM
Reverend Cotton Mather
Senior Pastor,
Church of the Erotic Redemption
http://www.asstr.org/~ReverendCottonMather
http://www.storiesonline.net
*Something clever is supposed to go here, I think*
[email protected] (Alexis Siefert) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]> ...
Hey, as long as they're standing out there, I'll keep chasing them down.
Ain't will NEVER be allowed, nor will double negatives. At least not from
my
charges.
And, it's "one hundred," not "a hundred."
You mean, if you've told us once, you've told us one hundred times?
Hmmm.
I ain't buyin' that one, little lady.
You're right, and since you seem like basically a nice person, I'll let you
call me on it, and I won't exercise my new PLB muscles getting all defensive
:-)
I teach primary school, and we've just passed the 100th day of school. Pet
peeve of mine is to hear parents count with kids and get to ninety-nine, a
hundred. It messes with their number sense.
There isn't a number "a hundred." There is a number "one hundred." There is
an expression "a hundred" (as in the example you used above).
Alexis.
Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different
speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing.
- Clive James
Hey, as long as they're standing out there, I'll keep chasing them down.
Ain't will NEVER be allowed, nor will double negatives. At least not from
my
charges.
And, it's "one hundred," not "a hundred."
You mean, if you've told us once, you've told us one hundred times?
Hmmm.
I ain't buyin' that one, little lady.
You're right, and since you seem like basically a nice person, I'll let you
call me on it, and I won't exercise my new PLB muscles getting all defensive
:-)
I teach primary school, and we've just passed the 100th day of school. Pet
peeve of mine is to hear parents count with kids and get to ninety-nine, a
hundred. It messes with their number sense.
There isn't a number "a hundred." There is a number "one hundred." There is
an expression "a hundred" (as in the example you used above).
I will now write one hundred times, "Alexis is 'most usually always right."
On 28 Feb 2002 15:47:52 GMT, [email protected] (Alexis
Siefert) held forth, saying:
There isn't a number "a hundred." There is a number "one hundred." There is
an expression "a hundred" (as in the example you used above).
<editor>
'an hundred'
</editor>
Denny ... do even you say, "If I've told you once, I've told you an
hundred times"? Or is this just the equivalent of sending me to look
for a left-handed screwdriver?
On 28 Feb 2002 15:47:52 GMT, [email protected] (Alexis
Siefert) held forth, saying:
There isn't a number "a hundred." There is a number "one hundred."
There is
an expression "a hundred" (as in the example you used above).
<editor>
'an hundred'
</editor>
Eeew! Eew eew eew! Yuck. Would you prefer an hamburger or an hotdog
for lunch today, Mr. 'Iggins?
"An historical monument." For some reason, the "h" counts as a vowel
amongst those from abroad.
Conjugate
From: oosh
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 13:42:53 GMT
"Conjugate" <[email protected]> wrote in news:u7togi1hb9rs34
@corp.supernews.com:
"An historical monument." For some reason, the "h" counts as a vowel
amongst those from abroad.
It seems to be an obscure throwback to French, in which language some words
beginning with "h" are said to be "aspirated", and some are not. So,
"l'hotel", "l'histoire" but 'le h�ros'. Hence, in frenchified English, "an
hotel", "an historic", but "a heroic" (and certainly "a hundred" -
"hundred" doesn't come from French).
I have heard some would-be pedants say "an historic" out loud - and
pronounce the "h" as well. This seems to me both ugly and ridiculous. If
you're going to elide in the French style, you should drop the "h".
But personally I see no reason to visit English with these weird historical
inconsistencies.
O.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:17:28 -0600
On 28 Feb 2002 15:47:52 GMT, [email protected] (Alexis
Siefert) held forth, saying:
There isn't a number "a hundred." There is a number "one hundred." There
is
an expression "a hundred" (as in the example you used above).
<editor>
'an hundred'
</editor>
It's a rare day that I disagree with Denny on such a point, but when the "h" is
pronounced, it's "a." The purpose for adding an "n" to make "an" is for easy
in pronounciation. When there is the spoken "h," the need for the "n" is gone.
Alexis.
Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different
speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing.
- Clive James
It's a rare day that I disagree with Denny on such a point, but when
the "h" is pronounced, it's "a." The purpose for adding an "n" to make
"an" is for easy in pronounciation. When there is the spoken "h," the
need for the "n" is gone.
Habsolutely.
O.
From: oosh
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 01:13:49 GMT
You are the first person to ever refer to me as being 'pugnacious.' I like it.
Alexis.
Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different
speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing.
- Clive James
On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 00:27:26 +0200, "Father Ignatius"
<[email protected]> held forth, saying:
And I worry that the phrase "too much marijuana" may have a null semantic
payload, all same "too much garlic."
Too much maryjane is when one's had enough to make one barf.
(yes, BTDT, washed the t-shirt)
yay denny! yay!
but who needs the illegal stuff when the doctors are so happy to give us the
heavy duty stuff? :) makes us more manageable too. :) we did one time puke
up our meds, but that was on purpose and we were on a locked ward anyway. we
were just angry. :(
anyway, was the t-shirt tye-dye? ;)
yay denny! yay!
-cb
celia batau's story site: http://www.myplanet.net/pinataheart/stories.htm.
So it is in
my silence
that I have become
who I am,
and no one even
has an idea
of this monster
hidden behind
the blade.
-Megan
From: dennyw
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 01:30:50 -0800
On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 19:56:04 -0800, "celia batau"
<[email protected]> held forth, saying:
anyway, was the t-shirt tye-dye? ;)
Sadly, no.
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 17:27:32 -0600
On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 19:56:04 -0800, "celia batau"
<[email protected]> wrote:
And I worry that the phrase "too much marijuana" may have a null semantic
payload, all same "too much garlic."
Too much maryjane is when one's had enough to make one barf.
(yes, BTDT, washed the t-shirt)
Barf? How can you manage that? I mean, even if you eat it that
shouldn't happen :-) Not with good stuff anyway.
yay denny! yay!
but who needs the illegal stuff when the doctors are so happy to give us the
heavy duty stuff? :) makes us more manageable too. :)
It's illegal? I thought you just went out to the corn field and
picked it. How can that possibly illegal? It just grows there,
free for anyone to collect :-)
we did one time puke
up our meds, but that was on purpose and we were on a locked ward anyway. we
were just angry. :(
Hmm, the wrong meds could do that too. Good ones shouldn't mess you
up that way. Other ways, but puking it up is a bad side effect.
isn't it?
anyway, was the t-shirt tye-dye? ;)
I had a few of them. No more. Maybe I should teach the kids how to
make the things, before the art is lost forever - or they think you
can only get them at the mall /-)
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 00:27:26 +0200, "Father Ignatius"
<[email protected]> held forth, saying:
And I worry that the phrase "too much marijuana" may have a null semantic
payload, all same "too much garlic."
Too much maryjane is when one's had enough to make one barf.
(yes, BTDT, washed the t-shirt)
I thought it was the point where you say, "Dude, I'd like, smoke
another joint, but I'm just too stoned to roll one!"
Later,
Jacques (who doesn't actually use the stuff - when I want to alter my
mind, I read science fiction)
"I smoke two joints in the morning; I smoke two joints at night.
I smoke two joints in the afternoon; it makes me feel alright.
I smoke two joints in time of peace, and two in time of war.
I smoke two joints before I smoke two joints, and then I smoke two
more!
Smoke two joints!" - - -Bob Marley, who may have meant it literally
From: Sagittaria
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 03:21:27 -0000
Monsoon
by DrSpin
Was hard to get into, but turned out to be a fascinating read.
Positives:
1- The staccato sentences made it feel like we were really hearing
someone's thoughts, rather than reading an expository narrative.
2- Revelation or understanding builds as you read the story (at least
it did for me). Sometimes that's more interesting than laying it all
out at the beginning.
Negatives:
1- you knew this was coming - the staccato voice again. That's part of
what made it hard to get into the story at first. "River? Rain? Mud?
This doesn't sound like sex."
2- It's hard to get a good understanding of exactly what's going on in
the story. I'm a very simple person (or as Nicholas said, greedy). I
want to know more. fex, What's the woman's purpose? Why is she banging
on car windows? Is she just looking for sex? Companionship? A fight?
And, a Question For The Author [TM]: Is this meant to be a realistic
scenario? I suppose there are places where rain stops traffic for
days, but are there cars in those places? Are the people in those cars
white? Is there nowhere the cars can return to, so that they must wait
by the bridge? These are serious questions, spurred mostly by my
profound ignorance. :) Whether the scenario is realistic or not, I
don't mean to imply that it would detract from the story at all.
- - >Sagittaria< - -
I could never be a Democrat, because I like to spend the money I earn
myself. But I could never be a Republican, because I like to spend it
on drugs and whores. -Jim David
From: Desdmona
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 02 Mar 2002 05:45:48 GMT
Monsoon
by DrSpin
Spin~
I had a conversation with another writer a while back about getting a story
on the first read. I don't think we can read or watch, for that matter, any
story and not find more on the second or third read than we did on the first.
So maybe our goal should be to write a story that makes someone want to read it
again. I wanted to read this story again.
The things I like about it include the poetic flow, the lovely imagery, and the
use of the word, queue. Others have already addressed the imagery, so I'll skip
over it, and just say it was done masterfully.
I enjoyed the flow. The short choppy sentences &/or fragments followed by
lengthier, more involved sentences remind me of rain itself. Days of rain here
in the American Midwest have short periods of torrential downpour where you
can't see anything - everything is muddled, and then periods where the rain goes
on and on without stopping, but you can still see clearly. The way it's done in
the very first paragraph - confusion that's explained quickly in the following
paragraphs. Beyond that, there's a real sense of poetry in the way the story
reads. I happen to love poetry.
When I was young I'd sit for hours and play "Scrabble" with my grandmother. It
took hours because she would labor over each and every word. Somehow she would
always end up with the "Q" and queue happened to be her favorite word to spell.
It's not a commonly used word here in the states, but when I see it in print it
brings back fond memories. (I know, I know this information does nothing to
help the author.)
The things I'd like to see improved in this story: first, "wet white clothes."
A couple of paragraphs later even her bra is gray, so why are her clothes
white? Is it because the image of wet white means transparent? It's not
necessary, and I like it even less because when she's nude her skin is "pasty
white." If the idea is transparency then try gauzy or just leave out the
description altogether.
Secondly,
"She clenches her hands into fists and puts them on her hips, stands
rebelliously with legs apart, bare feet stuck in mud."
The phrasing of this made me stop every time I read it. Is it just me or would
it read better as, "She clenches her hands into fists, puts them on her hips,
and stands rebelliously with legs apart, bare feet stuck in mud"?
And,
"She stops, lifts her face to the sky as the rain becomes torrential. Her eyes
are closed. She gets to the back of the queue, and as she retraces her steps
she starts taking off her clothes."
Does she get to the back of the queue with her face to the sky and eyes closed?
It sort of had me imagining her groping along blindly.
And finally, I'm wondering if you need this paragraph,
"She looks at him. He has ratty hair and awful teeth. He looks rough and mean,
a man of few manners and little education, a man accustomed to doing it tough
and doing it alone."
Since we've already learned about his ratty hair and awful teeth prior to the
sex, there's no reason to include it again, but more importantly this paragraph
tells us his motivation. We don't know the motivation of the woman or her
husband. I think I'd like it better if the same vagueness was applied to this
man in the car.
At first I wondered why the people in the cars would be so blas� about the
whole thing, but I thought about and decided if I were caught in rain for 2
days without relief, I can imagine I'd either be antsy like the woman or I'd be
blank like the people.
Thanks Spin for giving us this chance. It's a great story!
Des
From: Leowulf
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 06:27:25 -0000
Here is my response to this story, aside from the wet milieu being so
appropriate for a "Fish Tank" story. <g> The easiest improvement thing to
spot is quite minor: The lady is wearing either a skirt and pants but no
undies, or she is wearing a skirt and misspelled panties. Of course, that
could be a positive - a spelling error is easy to jump on. :)
The other is just a feeling of improbability to the whole thing. On the
surface, it could be Borneo or Papua New Guinea or some such, perhaps a
British holding in the third world, during the post-war years when cars
were plentiful in Britain's rapidly dwindling colonies but reliable
communication and weather forcasting was not. That would explain six cars
stranded at a bridge in a monsoon.
But if I heard of what properly could be called a natural disaster in the
making, I wouldn't be out and travelling cross-country unless I had no
choice. It would be interesting to find out why these people are there,
and how they will survive. Will their cars still function after such an
inundation? Will they be mired to the axle? Do the motorists have the
benefit of food? I'm assuming that water is no problem (could they collect
rain water?) and toilets are not an issue?
On a positive note:
"She batters her way to a sun-burst climax ..."
What a beautiful counterpoint to the dismal rainy weather - most well done!
Also putting the story in present tense makes the reader feel the setting
more than reading a past-tense account.
But what I enjoyed most was what I saw as the Hemingway style of this work.
I can't really expand on that, or really put it in better words. I haven't
even read much Hemingway. But the gritty, real-world imagery, the ... the
style is so good. Like painting with words. I didn't like the look of all
I read. But the whole picture presented was very compelling.
Leo W. Ulf
post scriptum
Oh dear! I seem to have forgotten my knuckle dusters! Well even amateur
writers can improvise when needed ...
-poof!-
A lady materialises out of thin air. She is tall - about 2 metres - and
dressed in a black leather corset, black knee-high boots, and black evening
gloves. Her blond hair hangs in a thick braid. In her hand is a thickly
braided whip. She sits daintily in a high-backed wooden chair, smiles at
the good doctor and says:
"Vell, herr Schpin, ve meet again. If you vill kindly kneel across my lap,
ve can discuss ze many errors of your schtory ..."
Leowulf [email protected]
Date: 3/1/02 9:27 PM Alaskan Standard Time
<snip>
The other is just a feeling of improbability to the whole thing. On the
surface, it could be Borneo or Papua New Guinea or some such, perhaps a
British holding in the third world, during the post-war years when cars
were plentiful in Britain's rapidly dwindling colonies but reliable
communication and weather forcasting was not. That would explain six cars
stranded at a bridge in a monsoon.
<snipping practical considerations of being stuck somewhere>
Not to be persnickety (who, me?), but there are many areas in the developed
world in which this type of situation could be highly probable. I've been
stuck, unexpectedly, for long periods of time - once overnight - on a highway, a
real, honest-to-goodness highway. It was due (that time) to a fatal traffic
accident somewhere between Seward and Anchorage. No way to get traffic in or
out. Mountain on one side, ocean on the other. Sorry, folks. Traffic is
backed up for miles and miles and miles, I'd suggest you get to know your
car-neighbor. Anything you've got extras of, let someone know 'cause someone
probably needs it. So we did. Someone pulled out a hibachi and someone else
pulled salmon out of the cooler. I threw in a trout and a gallon of lemonade
and cookies. Someone else had the music, and when night came we all offered up
extra sleeping bags and blankets for those people who didn't want to get cold.
I've also been stuck for hours (up to 8, iirc) due to an unexpectedly heavy and
sudden snowfall which caused an avalance and blocked off a part of a different
highway.
There have been mudslides along the Seward Highway between Anchorage and
Girdwood that have blocked traffic (and thereby cutting off the entire Kenai
Peninnsula from the rest of the state) for days. Unexpected and unavoidable.
Checking my car this evening, I find that I've still got three days worth of
water, food, books, a change of clothes, my Sorels, a radio, a deck of cards,
and a blanket. All boxed up nice and neatly behind the back seat. Anyone up
here who travels differently is asking for problems and is looked upon with
extreme distain after they've been rescued from frostbite, starvation, or
mud-flat drowning (which is another story entirely).
I found the mud-washed bridge and mired cars to be completely believable.
Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different
speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing.
- Clive James
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 11:49:13 -0600
On Sat, 02 Mar 2002 06:27:25 -0000, Leowulf
<[email protected]> wrote:
Here is my response to this story, aside from the wet milieu being so
appropriate for a "Fish Tank" story. <g> The easiest improvement thing to
spot is quite minor: The lady is wearing either a skirt and pants but no
undies, or she is wearing a skirt and misspelled panties. Of course, that
could be a positive - a spelling error is easy to jump on. :)
Pants = underwear, panties. Or knickers, and possibly other words
depending on locale. In Oz, they are pants - or at least, I've heard
it used that way. They have "funny" words for other things too. :-)
The other is just a feeling of improbability to the whole thing. On the
surface, it could be Borneo or Papua New Guinea or some such, perhaps a
British holding in the third world, during the post-war years when cars
were plentiful in Britain's rapidly dwindling colonies but reliable
communication and weather forcasting was not. That would explain six cars
stranded at a bridge in a monsoon.
Any place where a monsoon could hit, away from a big city, seems
like a reasonable possibility to me. Australia seems like it has lots
of places where it would be possible.
But if I heard of what properly could be called a natural disaster in the
making, I wouldn't be out and travelling cross-country unless I had no
choice. It would be interesting to find out why these people are there,
and how they will survive. Will their cars still function after such an
inundation? Will they be mired to the axle? Do the motorists have the
benefit of food? I'm assuming that water is no problem (could they collect
rain water?) and toilets are not an issue?
People get caught by such surprises a lot. Weather prediction
doesn't always let people know when the rains will be so intense -
and for some areas, it always rains a lot.
Other things, I don't know. Water should be collectable, maybe they
have some food in the cars.
In the USA, flooding definitely can affect traffic. People can be
stranded, though we tend to have air (helicopters primarily) to help
people get rescued. But bad storms can make such things difficult or
impossible. Mudslides can close roads. Winter weather also does
that, but people tend to plan better for such problems. A sudden
flooding rainstorm is harder to predict.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: dennyw
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 21:50:43 -0800
On Sat, 02 Mar 2002 11:49:13 -0600, Jeff Zephyr <[email protected]>
held forth, saying:
The other is just a feeling of improbability to the whole thing. On the
surface, it could be Borneo or Papua New Guinea or some such, perhaps a
British holding in the third world, during the post-war years when cars
were plentiful in Britain's rapidly dwindling colonies but reliable
communication and weather forcasting was not. That would explain six cars
stranded at a bridge in a monsoon.
Any place where a monsoon could hit, away from a big city, seems
like a reasonable possibility to me. Australia seems like it has lots
of places where it would be possible.
For example, the north coast of that island continent, which is
blessed with the same tropical climate as Borneo or New Guinea. The
hot and rainy season, and the hot and monsoon season. (or something
like that)
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: Always Horny
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 12:44:46 +0100
Heya Spin
this present tense choice of yours is really hard on the reader. I can't do the
usual commentary because I could never get into this story. The harsh present
tense, and the IMO-overdone sordid side kept throwing me out.
Just one clause which feels like a no-no to me:
She's not a young woman, nor yet old. She's just a woman of
less than medium height, ....
This "she's just" feels really nasty.
AH
A_H_01 at hotmail. com
From: DrSpin
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 3 Mar 2002 04:55:21 -0800
this present tense choice of yours is really hard on the reader. I can't do the
usual commentary because I could never get into this story. The harsh present
tense, and the IMO-overdone sordid side kept throwing me out.
That mournful sound you heard a little while ago, AH, was the ship
leaving the dock and heading for the horizon. You were a day late
for the farewell party. Bad luck. People laughed and cried, as usual,
and a few lies were told.
What's that over there floating in the water? Two roses, once part of
a glorious bouquet. And there is the pink ribbon that bound it.
The other is just a feeling of improbability to the whole thing. On the
Foreign-ness, maybe. Improbability, no.
surface, it could be Borneo or Papua New Guinea or some such, perhaps a
Or most of Africa, Asia or South America. Since the author is an
Australian, I took it for Australia, part of which lies in the monsoon belt.
British holding in the third world, during the post-war years when cars
Why British, especially, I wonder?
were plentiful in Britain's rapidly dwindling colonies but reliable
communication and weather forcasting was not. That would explain six cars
stranded at a bridge in a monsoon.
I keep reading this and my brow keeps wrinkling. Major worldview dichotomy
here.
But if I heard of what properly could be called a natural disaster in the
making, I wouldn't be out and travelling cross-country unless I had no
choice. It would be interesting to find out why these people are there,
Well, I've seen similar occurrences in Africa (not in monsoon territory)
happening routinely when the dry season ends. They are regarded as being
part of life. In weather forecasting terms the tough thing is predicting
not that there'll be rain but how much there will be. It's also difficult
to predict how much flooding will occur because the first rains are
swallowed whole by the parched earth. Figuring out if there will be a
surplus and, if so, when it will begin to run off and, if it does, how much
flooding will result is hydrology and not meteorology and it's basically a
crap-shoot. In the meantime, life goes on and people move about because
they have to.
The novel "In the Wet," by Nevil Shute describes what it's like living in
areas affected by such weather.
Monsoons are not natural disasters, BTW. They are parts of the annual
cycle.
[ ...]
"Father Ignatius" <[email protected]>
http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Stories.html
The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: Leowulf
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 21:21:48 -0000
The other is just a feeling of improbability to the whole thing. On
the
Foreign-ness, maybe. Improbability, no.
Yes, foreignness works, but also improbability, from my myopic (been
wearing glasses since I was a child) Americocentric perspective. I've
driven across the continental U.S. several times, and was stopped at a
bridge only once, when the Red River flooded parts of North Dakota and
Minnesota. It was on the news for about a week before hand, as the U.S.
watched from their living rooms, the rains fell over the northern plains,
the flatlanders got out the sandbags to save their farms, and my family
prepared to move from Tennessee to Idaho.
surface, it could be Borneo or Papua New Guinea or some such, perhaps
a
Or most of Africa, Asia or South America. Since the author is an
Australian, I took it for Australia, part of which lies in the monsoon
belt.
monsoon ... belt? Do they sell those at Sears? Sorry, I'm a product of
the American public school system. <g>
British holding in the third world, during the post-war years when
cars
Why British, especially, I wonder?
His expressions and spelling were so British I could taste the tea and
crumpets.
It also fit with my view of people in motorcars in a monsoon. Only British
colonials would have ignored the signs that Mother Gaia surely gave that
the Monsoon would be blowing in from sea (kidding), like only the
Virginians would settle their colony in a swamp and start out by trying to
grow cash crops rather than real food. :)
Hmmm ... I bet I can get more ethnocentric if I tried ...
Surely the motorists wouldn't have been indigenous people - the locals
would have been huddled in reed huts with their oxen, eating stockpiled
rice and telling stories around cunningly built fires. <g>
were plentiful in Britain's rapidly dwindling colonies but reliable
communication and weather forcasting was not. That would explain six
cars stranded at a bridge in a monsoon.
I keep reading this and my brow keeps wrinkling. Major worldview
dichotomy here.
The closest we get to your monsoon is the Hurricaine season in the gulf
coast, or maybe the blizzard season in the Rockies and Great Plains.
Usually people have a couple of days warning before things really get
going.
But if I heard of what properly could be called a natural disaster in
the making, I wouldn't be out and travelling cross-country unless I
had no choice. It would be interesting to find out why these people
are there,
Well, I've seen similar occurrences in Africa (not in monsoon
territory) happening routinely when the dry season ends. They are
regarded as being part of life. In weather forecasting terms the
tough thing is predicting not that there'll be rain but how much there
will be. It's also difficult to predict how much flooding will occur
because the first rains are swallowed whole by the parched earth.
Figuring out if there will be a surplus and, if so, when it will begin
to run off and, if it does, how much flooding will result is hydrology
and not meteorology and it's basically a crap-shoot. In the meantime,
life goes on and people move about because they have to.
Sounds like it makes sense, but then again, you could have told me that
dry-to-rainy season flash floods were caused by elves and I would not have
been able to prove you wrong. It does sound like you have a common core of
experience with Dr S that made the setting work well for you.
The novel "In the Wet," by Nevil Shute describes what it's like living
in areas affected by such weather.
Is Shute Australian? I remember that On the Beach was also set in
Australia.
Monsoons are not natural disasters, BTW. They are parts of the annual
cycle.
No, no. I meant the American view of any force of nature that can
inconvenience or harm people or property as a natural disaster. <g>
Leo the Wulf
From: oosh
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 03:14:28 GMT
His expressions and spelling were so British I could taste the tea
and crumpets.
It would be interesting to imagine this story with French (I don't know off
hand when or where - maybe Indochina cir 1948?) or Spanish characters
(Maybe in South America or the Phillipines?) ... how would it have been
described the same or differently?
How would you like to be told that you were a British colonial, I
wonder?
Oh, but we were. That's why I included the Virginia colony example (I'm
originally a Virginian). Of course, the Crown colonies here in the New
World (the Carolinas and Georgia, I think) were not necessarily settled by
volunteers, and I'm sure the original settlers of Australia were not all
volunteers either, but both settings I believe qualified as colonies of the
British empire. Of course, a few decades or centuries ago, both the U.S.
and Australia became our own little independent countries, and so people of
neither locale are properly called colonials today.
But it was easy to see the setting of this short story as a land that is
still "only" a colony of the Empire, perhaps still only sparsely populated
by "civilized" people. Perhaps the muddy, unpaved roads are better suited
to indigenous elephants or oxen, and the natives point and jabber in some
primitive dialect when a motorcar passes. It's easy to imagine a
Hemingway-esque figure on one of his many travels, now that the War is over
and travel is easier, stuck at a river in the middle of such a place, glad
to have brought along a bottle of spirits, wiling away the time by writing
notes to himself about the goings-on.
Or perhaps it's set in a modern Australia, a nice, civilized independent
nation, where such events as sudden bridge wash-outs are nevertheless not
uncommon. Having no information on the setting beyond what the good Doctor
provided in his story, the reader must rely only upon his experience and
imagination to place the story properly.
It's also possible, after all, for these to be colonists on a wet, muddy
world orbiting a far distant sun, for all the information provided in the
tale. :) The reader may assume otherwise, but only because of his world-
view and expectations. If I were to read of a pilot chash-landing in a
swamp and being "helped" by an irritating local who speaks oddly, I might
picture a barnstormer and a Cajun in Depression-era Louisiana as readily as
I would Luke Skywalker meeting Yoda in the Degoba system.
It does occur to me from your choice of words that you may have either
taken offense to the term British colonial or see the possibility of
another doing so; this possibility presents an opportunity for a Leonine
apology, which is hereby provided.
I think it's time you paid Australia a visit. I'm sure they will be
able to explain everything to you.
She was "bush-happy." It's a well-known condition although, I guess,
maybe not in urban California.
I don't know about the rest of you (oosh), but I, myself, am
ASTONISHED: six days and countless stoner jokes and NO ONE, not ONE of
you, leaps to the immediate joke. - On a sex story discussion board,
no less.
I weep for the decadent youth of today.
Best,
- n.
"Muff. The private parts of a woman. To the well wearing of your muff,
mort; to the happy consummation of your marriage, girl; a health."
wear it well indeed:
http://www.asstr.org/~nickurfe/ift/
http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: oosh
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 00:21:52 GMT
I don't know about the rest of you (oosh), but I, myself, am
ASTONISHED: six days and countless stoner jokes and NO ONE, not ONE of
you, leaps to the immediate joke. - On a sex story discussion board,
no less.
Well, the rest of me would be really grateful to have the word "stoner"
explained. Sorry to be so crass!
I weep for the decadent youth of today.
I'm still too busy weeping for the decadent youth of yesterday! (People,
she was beautiful.)
O.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 20:00:40 -0600
I don't know about the rest of you (oosh), but I, myself, am
ASTONISHED: six days and countless stoner jokes and NO ONE, not ONE of
you, leaps to the immediate joke. - On a sex story discussion board,
no less.
Well, the rest of me would be really grateful to have the word "stoner"
explained. Sorry to be so crass!
Stoner is pretty easy. It is someone who gets stoned. That is,
stoned on drugs, pot being the preferred favorite.
I weep for the decadent youth of today.
I'm still too busy weeping for the decadent youth of yesterday! (People,
she was beautiful.)
The youth of today lacks the really good forms of decadence we had
in the past. They get some new ones - the Internet is just great
for finding new ideas and stuff - but it just isn't quite the same.
Ignorance has its advantages.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Conjugate
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 21:57:35 -0500
I don't know about the rest of you (oosh), but I, myself, am
ASTONISHED: six days and countless stoner jokes and NO ONE, not ONE of
you, leaps to the immediate joke. - On a sex story discussion board,
no less.
Okay, okay. "Bush crazy: Gee, that would describe quite a few of us,
wouldn't it? Smirk, smirk, wink wink, nudge nudge." There ya go.
Well, the rest of me would be really grateful to have the word "stoner"
explained. Sorry to be so crass!
"Stoner" refers (especially in high school or college) to one who uses
recreational drugs with sufficient enthusiasm as to be clearly under their
influence much of the day. AKA pothead, druggy.
See, in many high schools, there are cliques formed based on broad
personality types. There are the athletes (Jocks), the stoners, the geeks,
and a few other groups that may vary based on region and/or culture. For
instance, many people who identify themselves with their love of music might
not fall into any of those categories.
I weep for the decadent youth of today.
I'm still too busy weeping for the decadent youth of yesterday! (People,
she was beautiful.)
Yeah, I know. One of the sad aspects of being socially backward is the
memory of all the girls in high school that I believe in retrospect I could
have had sex with, but didn't understand what was going on at the time.
Sigh.
Yeah, I know. One of the sad aspects of being socially backward is the
memory of all the girls in high school that I believe in retrospect I could
have had sex with, but didn't understand what was going on at the time.
Sigh.
What is this? James Dean cocksure (ahem, pardon) hindsight, or
massive present-day humility, or the reverse, or both?
From: dennyw
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 17:50:55 -0800
On 3 Mar 2002 21:49:54 -0800, [email protected] (Nicholas Urfe) held
forth, saying:
She was "bush-happy." It's a well-known condition although, I guess,
maybe not in urban California.
I don't know about the rest of you (oosh), but I, myself, am
ASTONISHED: six days and countless stoner jokes and NO ONE, not ONE of
you, leaps to the immediate joke. - On a sex story discussion board,
no less.
Far TOO obvious.
I weep for the decadent youth of today.
<editor>
'decadent' <add the single-quotes, that is>
</editor>
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 20:28:47 -0600
On 3 Mar 2002 21:49:54 -0800, [email protected] (Nicholas Urfe)
wrote:
She was "bush-happy." It's a well-known condition although, I guess,
maybe not in urban California.
I don't know about the rest of you (oosh), but I, myself, am
ASTONISHED: six days and countless stoner jokes and NO ONE, not ONE of
you, leaps to the immediate joke. - On a sex story discussion board,
no less.
Enamored of the President of the USA? OK, that may not happen in
urban California, but it probably comes up somewhere.
Hot for Gavin and the rest of the band? Last I heard, Gavin was
stuck tight to sweet Gwen from No Doubt, and though that fact is
lamentable for those male fans hoping for a personal miracle, I can
see this coming up in California.
Same goes for those hot for Kate Bush, hoping to turn into nice
Bush-happy groupies. She's taken by Del.
OK, maybe she is the sort of girl who goes for girls with copious
body hair on certain locations. But last I checked, in California
shaving, or at least trimming, was pretty popular. So it is possible
that they wouldn't be familiar with that particular situation there.
I weep for the decadent youth of today.
I think they can find new fun decadent things to do. As well as
finding new ways to do the old stuff, or do the same thing and call it
new.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: DrSpin
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 2 Mar 2002 18:16:27 -0800
My sincere thanks to all who participated. My
turn in the bowl was most interesting and enjoyable.
"Monsoon" was a departure for me. I have not
previously written a story in present tense and
I am unlikely to do so in the near future. It
was a brief writing exercise, brought on by two
months of writing a big bunch of stuff for
another place. Much of that stuff was formulaic,
and "Monsoon" was like taking a little holiday
from myself.
I planned to do a whole series of short stories
in markedly different styles, each based on a
colour, with no real idea about posting them
anywhere. Typically I stopped at one. The point
is, however, I really wrote the story for me.
Personally, I thought the story didn't quite work.
But enough of the caveat thing. Let's discuss.
Please Cain:
Your imagery like caramel mud or being mad as a
cut snake, some of your verbs, your nice
handling of present tense - all give the story
immediacy.
Clever old Cain to pick that out. I started the
whole exercise with only the word "caramel" in
my head, and built the story around it.
I also like the fact that you let us readers
work regarding the subject matter, to fill in
the blanks on our own, without being too vague.
Pretty much my bedded-down style. If you can get
a reader to be thinking "WTF is gonna happen
here?", then I think that adds to entertainment
value, at least.
It's a fine line between a good story such as
this, and an unsatisfying one.
More on this anon. See Alexis and Nicholas Urfe
sections.
That said, it probably wouldn't hurt to thread
in a bit more explanation or backstory, as long
as you can work such details into the text
without hindering the flow (otherwise, I
wouldn't do it).
Don't wanna. For one thing, I've long moved on
to other stories. I hate going back.
If anything, I might have overdone the
explanations, and that's what got me into some
POV problems. More on this, too, anon. See Urfe
and celia sections.
The lead paragraph is more confusing than
inviting to me; after the first two sentences
described the weather, the third sentence was
too cryptic. I reread that third sentence a
couple times, thinking "how can a river be
stuck, trapped and stripped of purpose?" The
statement becomes clear five sentences later,
but I would rather you cut the first paragraph
entirely. Or at least the third and fourth
sentences.
Absolutely bang on. This is what can happen when
you upgrade words and phrases after you've
written the thing. The upgrades may be nice, but
along the way you can forget the context and
lose flow and clarity. Agreed and applied.
Nice work, Cain.
Father Ignatius:
Muuuuuhahahaha! I get to go first.
Apparently. I hope.
You didn't. You ran second again. Story of your
life, really.
Audience-indulgent writing.
Writer-indulgent, rather. See Alexis section.
Ace Dyson was not in the story.
"Monsoon" in fact was an adverse reaction to a
surfeit of Ace Dyson stories. After many
thousands of smart-arse words I needed a
holiday.
The sex scene was coy.
<Gasp! He dares!> My lecture on "coy" is
available on request.
Nicholas Urfe:
Now: this is, of course, an exercise in voice.
Yes.
Sparse, stripped sentences heavy on the visual
cues and light on interpretation, the present
tense (and as an aside: how can people make
blanket statements like "I hate stories written
in the present tense?"
But be very careful. Don't make a habit of it,
dear. Writing in the present tense is perilously
close to living in a town called Wankersville. I
reckon. "Artist at work" sort of stuff.
I dropped "Monsoon" in the Tank blithely, and
then I realised with an uncomfortable lurch when
I saw it there that it could so easily be
printed in the Wankersville Gazette.
Urfe will not take this unkindly. Of all the
writers here, he can get away with it most. I
cannot even begin to contemplate writing like
the splashy Urfe. <Whew. I think I'm relaxed and
relieved about that.>
I want everything about the woman's
relationship with her (presumed) husband
explained; nor am I saying I want her to ever
say anything at all to the man she fucks, but I
do think the decision to go utterly
dialogueless was a mistake.
In other settings and other stories, I am a
dialogue writer. In this one I was not. It would
be a difficult mix-'n-match, Nick. Maybe a line
or two. Maybe. As a spoken comment, perhaps. An
observation, exclamation. Possibly.
Neggie two, and I'll cheat and lump some minor
considerations together. The queue and the
woman's place in it is unclear at the start.
Agreed. I was aware of it, too, and tried to get
it right. But failed.
Also: there is a conceptual rhythm - a
structural rhythm - as well as the more usual
rhythm of cadence and tone and timbre and all
that physical stuff. That ineffable conceptual
rhythm falters in a couple of passages, but
most notably here:
. He has dark growth of beard on his face. He is
. wiry and weather-hardened, a man of remote distance. He
. snarls with pleasure, and he has a missing front tooth.
The "and" would work if we were more fully in
her point of view, and the sentence ran thusly:
"He snarls with pleasure, and she sees he has a
missing front tooth" - and I suspect the "and"
is a holdover from that common-enough
construction. But I would militate STRONGLY
against putting "she sees" in there. Those two
words would wreck the entire mood (and purpose)
that's been built up thus far. Instead, keep to
short, declarative sentences, and break the two
pieces of information each to its own: "He
snarls with pleasure. One of his front teeth is
missing." Or even "He snarls with pleasure.
There's a gap where one of his front teeth
should be." Something like that.
Yep. Agreed. Your way is much better.
Jesus, Nick, you are exhausting.
celia:
narration is a bit too vague. there's nothing
to hold to. we had to assemble the line of
cars, the river, and the characters together.
True. But you gotta work, celia. That's a good
thing.
like "two days and no way out" suggests a
narrator or a pov in the story, but there's
only a rotating perspective like a helicoptor
circling the scene.
Very good point. If the story goes anywhere, I
promise to fix that and a whole bunch of things
in the same vein. celia is absolutely right. The
POV is muddled.
communication. the woman's trying to
communicate something.
All celias must work to solve this puzzle.
um, we don't need it spelled out, and maybe
we're just missing it, but maybe something to
latch onto?
Tsk tsk. Which celia read this story? Whichever
one it was, she was not working hard enough. You
should speak to her. I remember a celia story
about a road accident, blue lights, and half-
recalled fragments that made me work really,
really hard, which was why I liked it so much.
Alexis:
I had to decide if my first instincts WRT my
response were in reaction to the "knuckle
dusters" comments. I have a suspicion that
Spin was, perhaps, challenging us to look past
his turn of phrase and wonderful grasp of
language to see that what he's done here is
more show than substance.
Always trust your first instincts. But I was not
doing it as arrogantly or deliberately as that.
See opening comments.
'Monsoon' very much reminds me of one of the
last times I was at the museum. There's a
wonderful exhibit of 'Modern Art' that goes on
display a couple of times each year. There are
some marvelous pieces - stunningly beautiful use
of form and line and material. Stark,
simplistic, harsh without being painful. There
are also some >pieces in the collection that
show what happens when an artist tried too
hard, and didn't quite have the talent to back
it up.
Acute. See "Wankersville" comments earlier.
My first impression of 'Monsoon' is that there
is an attempt here to get that same shock-Art
feel. It's the present tense thing, primarily.
You've written a visual scene here, and it
would work as a visual scene, but, imho, it
doesn't work as a written piece.
Inclined to agree.
However, you stagger your sentence tone too
much. You start with this neo-Indigenous
sentence structure, limited articles and choppy
transitions. Then you switch to smooth flowing
and highly descriptive sentences, even though
the story is still stuck waiting for the bridge
to clear, and then you're right back to the
choppy structure. This would be much more
effective if it actually fit with the flow of
the story.
One hundred or so (note use of number, Alexis!)
stories written has made me much more smooth
than I used to be. The choppy stuff was
experimental. I agree I slipped back into my
standard style inappropriately.
I don't often find myself disagreeing with Nat
WRT to these stories, but I don't think this
was " Audience-indulgent writing." The Real
Thing, absolutely, but I believe that this was
more writer-indulgent writing.
Guilty as charged. Explained in introductory
comments.
However, Spin's got enough flash and mastery of
phrase to make it appear as though he's
appealing to our more intellectual side ('look
at the hand over here, look at the hand, look
at the hand, while I pull a rabbit out of your
ear")..
Conjurer's tricks. Beware of Flash Rat writers.
Good spotting, Alexis. I almost got away with
it.
Selena:
You sometimes work a little too hard at the
jarring images. Sometimes they work perfectly -
- others have mentioned "mad as a cut
snake," and I'll mention "flattening her
breasts against the glass," - but at other
times they should be a tiny bit better
coordinated. Here, for instance: "She's not a
young woman, nor yet old. She's just a woman of
less than medium height, with unremarkable
breasts, broad hips and backside, and strong,
heavy thighs." If she's not young, nor yet
old, then why is the next descriptor about her
height? That jars, but in the wrong way. (If
you took out "just," it might not, it has just
now occurred to me.)
Agreed. Much better. One word deleted and it
improves leaps and bounds.
Don't let us see into her husband's (?
boyfriend's?) mind. ("He's had way too much of
her in two days.") I do not wish to trespass
upon Nicholas's POV ground here, because he
said it so breathlessly, so impenetrably, and
so well, but again, it jars in the wrong way.
We cannot see into the mind of the mad, and we
cannot see into the mud, and we cannot see into
the mind of the utterly selfish gap-toothed
man. Don't spoil it by giving us someone
peripheral to see into.
Also agreed. That POV problem I mentioned in the
celia section. It shall be fixed.
Jeff Zephyr:
The sex scene is OK but mechanical. Maybe that
is intentional, less passion involved perhaps
than a good masturbation session, but neither
man nor woman seem to get into it that much.
It was intentional. If anything, I didn't de-
humanise it enough. The whole point of the sex
scene is that it makes no logical sense.
External forces at work.
Where did her shoes go?
I say somewhere she was barefooted. You don't
wear shoes in a monsoon. You'll only wear them
once if you do.
The interlude, running around naked in the
rain, then getting in a car and fucking a man
she doesn't know, merely is a break for all,
even her man. He says nothing at the end, just
goes on waiting, as if her outburst were as
natural as the monsoon itself.
That's a good summary of the story. Thank you,
Jeff.
Ray:
As it stands the story has a rather major
adverb and conjunction problem. There are many
places where 'the' should have been but
wasn't, and almost an equal number where it was
used but shouldn't have been ....
Sorry, Ray. Disagree. I usually place such
things with considerable care. In other words,
that is what I intended. I like to use words
slightly out of place, pull a few stunts, light
a couple of spot fires. See "conjurer's tricks"
in Alexis section.
(i.e.)
Last line paragraph three would have read
better with the addition "After two days 'the'
mud stinks like 'a' rotting animal.
Much prefer it without the 'the' and the 'a'.
Read it aloud. Tell me if you change your mind.
There are places where the wording or word
tensing choices interrupt the flow of the story
... "She's shouting at each of the cars as she
passes by. The rain has got heavier and she's
not making sense." The second line here needs
restructuring, something more like "The rain
has gotten ..." or "The rain 'got' heavier, her
words make no sense."
Ah. The American love affair with the peculiarly
ugly word "gotten" (addressed nicely by oosh in
a sidetrack). I've even had trouble with Ruthie
over it.
The choice of scenes was good as well, in it's
uniqueness ... stranded motorists, driving
unending rain, frayed tempers, emotional
stress, base despondency, all brought on by an
unending cacophony of wet, of mud, and (though
it's not specifically mentioned) the ceaseless
drumming of falling drops on metal roofs,
unchanging except in its intensity.
No, it's not mentioned, and it probably should
be. I'm underboard on sound effects, and it is
the sort of story where that could work very
well. Agreed, Ray. Drumming drops should go in.
Conjugate:
First of all, there's nothing to comment on,
really, that others have not beaten me to; I
liked the story, by the way. Secondly, I go
away for a few days, and find others flirting
with Alexis, and the thread where she and I
were flirting enthusiastically has vanished,
with no new posts.
A Fish Tank problem, I think. You see all the
posts and you think it's all about you and your
story. Then you discover it's a bunch of people
flirting. Very frustrating.
Sagittaria:
Revelation or understanding builds as you read the story
(at least it did for me). Sometimes that's more
interesting than laying it all out at the beginning.
Certainly my intention.
You knew this was coming - the staccato voice again.
That's part of what made it hard to get into the story at
first. "River? Rain? Mud? This doesn't sound like sex."
True. I know other writers here have had this problem, but
sometimes I forget I'm writing a sex story. I get immersed
in the story-telling, and I have to keep telling myself I
have a primary focus. Then again, I've never claimed any
status as a stroke writer.
It's hard to get a good understanding of exactly what's
going on in the story. I'm a very simple person (or as
Nicholas said, greedy). I want to know more. fex, What's
the woman's purpose? Why is she banging on car windows?
Is she just looking for sex? Companionship? A fight?
Yes, it was a bit of a tease, Saggy. Sometimes I like to
leave options open to the reader for interpretation. It
doesn't always work, either.
And, a Question For The Author [TM]: Is this meant to be a
realistic scenario? I suppose there are places where rain
stops traffic for days, but are there cars in those
places? Are the people in those cars white? Is there
nowhere the cars can return to, so that they must wait by
the bridge? These are serious questions, spurred mostly
by my profound ignorance.
Oh yes, entirely realistic. I live in tropical northern
Australia, Saggy. The rivers rise by up to 20 metres in the
wet season. Out there in the bush, you're bloody stranded,
and you can be cut off for up to two weeks. Food supplies
are winched across rivers or dropped in by chopper. Not
sure about the sex, but many stories of people getting
blind drunk for days at a time. All sorts of travellers get
caught, including tourists and backpackers. We're talking
big, wide-open spaces here with hundreds of kilometres
between towns.
Desdmona:
Beyond that, there's a real sense of poetry in the way the
story reads. I happen to love poetry.
I am uneasy about this, because I am very wary about
poetry. But thanks.
The things I'd like to see improved in this story: first,
"wet white clothes." A couple of paragraphs later even her
bra is gray, so why are her clothes white? Is it because
the image of wet white means transparent? It's not
necessary, and I like it even less because when she's nude
her skin is "pasty white." If the idea is transparency
then try gauzy or just leave out the description
altogether.
This made some work for me in the writing. What colours are
wet clothes? The original colour, now wet? Or a different
colour, once they are wet? But I think you're right -
leaving out the "white" might fix it.
"She clenches her hands into fists and puts them on her
hips, stands rebelliously with legs apart, bare feet stuck
in mud."
The phrasing of this made me stop every time I read it. Is
it just me or would it read better as, "She clenches her
hands into fists, puts them on her hips, and stands
rebelliously with legs apart, bare feet stuck in mud"?
Hmm. Unconvinced. I'll think about it.
"She stops, lifts her face to the sky as the rain becomes
torrential. Her eyes are closed. She gets to the back of
the queue, and as she retraces her steps she starts taking
off her clothes."
Does she get to the back of the queue with her face to the
sky and eyes closed? It sort of had me imagining her
groping along blindly.
Yes, agreed. The whole queue thing, and where she was and
where others were in what cars and why, came out muddled.
That needs work.
And finally, I'm wondering if you need this paragraph,
"She looks at him. He has ratty hair and awful teeth. He
looks rough and mean, a man of few manners and little
education, a man accustomed to doing it tough and doing it
alone."
Since we've already learned about his ratty hair and awful
teeth prior to the sex, there's no reason to include it
again, but more importantly this paragraph tells us his
motivation. We don't know the motivation of the woman or
her husband. I think I'd like it better if the same
vagueness was applied to this man in the car.
Maybe. But you're robbing me of a writer's chance to
emphasise the incongruity and the ugliness. And I also have
a huge weakness for repetition, largely bashed out of me
now by ruthless editors but still lurking under the
surface.
Leowulf:
The lady is wearing either a skirt and pants but no
undies, or she is wearing a skirt and misspelled panties.
Of course, that could be a positive - a spelling error is
easy to jump on.
"Panties" is largely, though not totally, American usage.
And I am not American.
It's one of those words we non-American writers here have
to grapple with. There are many others.
The other is just a feeling of improbability to the whole
thing. On the surface, it could be Borneo or Papua New
Guinea or some such ...
I dealt with this in the Sagittaria section. Trust me, it's
real. Or at least it is in big underpopulated places with
lots of rivers - Australia, Africa, South America. It's all
a matter of perspective. For example, I can scoff at some
city-dwellers who have to deal with two-hour traffic jams.
Unheard of. Ridiculous. Why would anybody put up with that?
Clearly, it's fabrication.
"Vell, herr Schpin, ve meet again. If you vill kindly
kneel across my lap, ve can discuss ze many errors of your
schtory ..."
Hey, watch it, babe. This is the Herr Doktor you're talking
to. I'll administer the unpleasant medicine, thanks.
"Und now, Herr Leowulf, you will swallow this highly
concentrated salt pill, and you will take twenty more
before this day is out."
Many thanks to all. I recommend Fish Tank to any who have
not yet participated. It is quite the best writing self-
improvement course I have struck.
Only one problem. It took me longer to write this response
than it did to write the story.
My sincere thanks to all who participated. My
turn in the bowl was most interesting and enjoyable.
My apologies for not feeling able to take part.
Personally, I thought the story didn't quite work.
I wouldn't be so harsh.
That said, it probably wouldn't hurt to thread
in a bit more explanation or backstory, as long
as you can work such details into the text
without hindering the flow (otherwise, I wouldn't do it).
Don't wanna. For one thing, I've long moved on
to other stories. I hate going back.
Some readers want everything explained, and get distressed if anything
isn't clear. I think it's worth a separate discussion topic.
But be very careful. Don't make a habit of it,
dear. Writing in the present tense is perilously
close to living in a town called Wankersville. I
reckon. "Artist at work" sort of stuff.
I don't want anyone bad-mouthing my home town, please. I lost the ability
to write in the past at the age of twelve (some earlier, some later ...).
I'm sorry for those who still can. I'm even sorrier for those who used to
be able to write in the future.
Neggie two, and I'll cheat and lump some minor
considerations together. The queue and the woman's place in it is
unclear at the start.
Agreed. I was aware of it, too, and tried to get
it right. But failed.
Everything was totally clear to me. I couldn't understand the others'
perplexity.
Jesus, Nick, you are exhausting.
Yeah. Nick, your wife is a lucky woman. If I had my time again ...
I am uneasy about this, because I am very wary about
poetry. But thanks.
It's the poets you need to watch.
Many thanks to all. I recommend Fish Tank to any who have
not yet participated. It is quite the best writing self-
improvement course I have struck.
You've given me courage.
Only one problem. It took me longer to write this response
than it did to write the story.
I realize I'm totally out of order commenting on your response,
particularly when I've done nothing to help. But I enjoyed it at least as
much as the story.
I didn't dare comment on the original story, because I didn't (and don't)
feel capable of it - except to say that I was sufficiently impressed by its
positive points not to want to find any negatives. I was impressed by some
of the insights you received, and just "lurking' was a very helpful
experience.
O.
From: Desdmona
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 03 Mar 2002 15:48:33 GMT
I didn't dare comment on the original story, because I didn't (and don't)
feel capable of it -
Ah, but Oosh, you're missing half the point of the FishTank. It's not only
about writers critiquing writers, it's also about readers letting writers
know why something works or doesn't work for them.
I understand all to well the intimidation factor with some some of the talent
floating about around here, but anything a reader might say or feel is just as
valuable as something someone else might write.
And besides all that generality, more specifically to you - you're selling
yourself way too short. You're definitely on my list of people whose opinion
and insight I value. And not being a betting woman, I'd still bet the farm that
I'm not alone in that.
OH, and one more thing:
I realize I'm totally out of order commenting on your response,
particularly when I've done nothing to help. But I enjoyed it at least as
much as the story.
The FishTank has guidelines not hard-set rules and another of its purposes is
to promote discussion - while a story is on display and after. I promise not to
send out the FishTank militia without due provocation.<smile>
Des
From: DrSpin
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 3 Mar 2002 10:04:04 -0800
I didn't dare comment on the original story, because I didn't (and don't)
feel capable of it -
Ah, but Oosh, you're missing half the point of the FishTank. It's not only
about writers critiquing writers, it's also about readers letting writers
know why something works or doesn't work for them.
Agreed. There is no doubt at all about oosh's "qualifications", even
if she thought she needed any. She posts stories that are well-received,
and she posts eloquently on matters of grammar and usage. Her input
would be very welcome.
Ah, but Oosh, you're missing half the point of the FishTank. It's not
only about writers critiquing writers, it's also about readers
letting writers know why something works or doesn't work for them.
Sometimes I'm afraid that to dissect is to kill.
...I promise not to send out the FishTank militia without due
provocation.<smile>
Thanks!
O.
From: Ray
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 01:12:56 -0500
My sincere thanks to all who participated. My
turn in the bowl was most interesting and enjoyable.
Last line paragraph three would have read
better with the addition "After two days 'the'
mud stinks like 'a' rotting animal.
Much prefer it without the 'the' and the 'a'.
Read it aloud. Tell me if you change your mind.
Sorry Dr. But it still doesn't quite have that 'lilt' to me.
Not without adding a pause, mid-sentence, say just after mud. Now, if you
added a comma there, denoting a pause and separating/delineating the mud
and what it smelled like. 'That' would work for me.
I realize, though that it is a matter of taste and my US school system
language perversions (sorry Alexis), and it's delineations from the 'mother
tongue'. Having become a hodge podge of influences from numerous languages
as people immigrated (something that is still happening - the most recent
influences seeming to come primarily from So/East Asia and the Middle East).
Yet, to my ear and palate, as an unbroken single sentence it simply is not
pleasing - it keeps screaming pause to me, either after 'days' or after
'mud' but it wants one, to my ear.
Hate to be disagreeable, but ...
<g>
Ray
From: DrSpin
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 3 Mar 2002 23:14:28 -0800
Last line paragraph three would have read
better with the addition "After two days 'the'
mud stinks like 'a' rotting animal.
Much prefer it without the 'the' and the 'a'.
Read it aloud. Tell me if you change your mind.
Sorry Dr. But it still doesn't quite have that 'lilt' to me.
Not without adding a pause, mid-sentence, say just after mud. Now, if you
added a comma there, denoting a pause and separating/delineating the mud
and what it smelled like. 'That' would work for me.
Hate to be disagreeable, but ...
Not disagreeable at all. Just me, just you. If we all agreed on what
we like to read, there'd be only about 12 writers writing.
language perversions (sorry Alexis), and it's delineations from ...
It's / its - we're only nit-picking here, but this is a bigger ouch for me.
Easily fixed.
Really not wishing to be disagreeable (especially as I've committed some
howlers in my time),
O.
From: dennyw
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 03:45:17 -0800
On 2 Mar 2002 18:16:27 -0800, DrSpin <[email protected]> held forth,
saying:
Ray:
(i.e.)
Last line paragraph three would have read
better with the addition "After two days 'the'
mud stinks like 'a' rotting animal.
the doctor of twirl:
Much prefer it without the 'the' and the 'a'.
Read it aloud. Tell me if you change your mind.
I agree with Spin - but some of Ray's preference (and Spin's) is likely
regional; I think Brits, Assies, Kiwis, and other colonial/former
colonial British-derived English-users drop articles much more freely
than do we in the States. ("she was in hospital" fex)
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: oosh
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 01:00:02 GMT
I agree with Spin - but some of Ray's preference (and Spin's) is likely
regional; I think Brits, Assies, Kiwis, and other colonial/former
colonial British-derived English-users drop articles much more freely
than do we in the States. ("she was in hospital" fex)
Denny, you've touched on something interesting that one of my US readers
picked up (actually, I thought it was you, but I was wrong).
Four words occur to me that have this special treatment in English:
hospital, school, university, college.
If I say "You must go to hospital", I mean that you must go as a patient.
If I say "You must go to school", I mean that you must go as a pupil. If I
say "I am going to university", I mean that you go as an undergraduate.
Ditto for college.
If I were a teacher, I'd not say "I'm going to school". I'd say "I'm going
[over] to the school." To say of a doctor, "He or she is in hospital" would
imply that he or she was a patient. You'd use the article otherwise.
It's a bit like being "in limbo" or "in heaven". These words have a state-
ness about them, and that's the reason the article is dropped. The
following would both be unidiomatic:
"She's in infirmary."
"She's in office." (Or any other room.)
We're really looking at a very special aspect of English usage. Do you say
"I went to school" as opposed to "I went to [a or the] school"? I think
it's the same sort of thing.
O.
From: dennyw
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 19:36:44 -0800
On Tue, 05 Mar 2002 01:00:02 GMT, oosh <[email protected]> held
forth, saying:
I agree with Spin - but some of Ray's preference (and Spin's) is likely
regional; I think Brits, Assies, Kiwis, and other colonial/former
colonial British-derived English-users drop articles much more freely
than do we in the States. ("she was in hospital" fex)
Denny, you've touched on something interesting that one of my US readers
picked up (actually, I thought it was you, but I was wrong).
Four words occur to me that have this special treatment in English:
hospital, school, university, college.
H'm. Wasn't aware of the latter 3.
If I say "You must go to hospital", I mean that you must go as a patient.
If I say "You must go to school", I mean that you must go as a pupil. If I
say "I am going to university", I mean that you go as an undergraduate.
Ditto for college.
These (school,uni, college) we use the same way. Though we rarely use
'university' in that construction. Much more likely 'college.'
If I were a teacher, I'd not say "I'm going to school". I'd say "I'm going
[over] to the school." To say of a doctor, "He or she is in hospital" would
imply that he or she was a patient. You'd use the article otherwise.
I think a teacher here (at any level) would just as likely say "I'm
off to school" as "I'm off to the school."
For the doctor-patient dichotomy, we seem (IME) to use 'at': "Oh, Dr.
Kafka is at the hospital." (suggests that Dr. K works there)
"Dr. Crippen is in the hospital." has the stateness of being a
patient attached.
It's a bit like being "in limbo" or "in heaven". These words have a state-
ness about them, and that's the reason the article is dropped. The
following would both be unidiomatic:
But for both of those (and hell) there's also their uniqueness.
There's only one limbo/heaven/hell.
We very likely would (and in fact I've heard and seen) "Joe's in
University Hospital." I don't think I've ever seen "in the <name>
Hospital."
"She's in infirmary."
"She's in office." (Or any other room.)
We're really looking at a very special aspect of English usage. Do you say
"I went to school" as opposed to "I went to [a or the] school"? I think
it's the same sort of thing.
Unlikely 'to a school' - seems self-evident. Now, if a specific
school were already in play, 'to the school' would be clear. But for
the general condition of having been schooled in an institution (no,
not Borstal!), we'd clearly say 'I went to school.'
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: Ray
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 23:23:31 -0500
language perversions (sorry Alexis), and it's delineations from ...
It's / its - we're only nit-picking here, but this is a bigger ouch for
me.
Easily fixed.
Sorry, Fair Lady. As usual I was responding on the fly and didn't take the
moment required to proof my own finger work. My apologies .... can I offer
you a bandage? <g>
Really not wishing to be disagreeable (especially as I've committed some
howlers in my time),
I agree with Spin - but some of Ray's preference (and Spin's) is likely
regional; I think Brits, Assies, Kiwis, and other colonial/former
colonial British-derived English-users drop articles much more freely
than do we in the States. ("she was in hospital" fex)
Denny, you've touched on something interesting that one of my US readers
picked up (actually, I thought it was you, but I was wrong).
Four words occur to me that have this special treatment in English:
hospital, school, university, college.
<snip>
If I were a teacher, I'd not say "I'm going to school". I'd say "I'm going
[over] to the school."
Oh good, something I can talk about <g>
I say either, "I'm going to school," (usually to people who know I'm a teacher)
or "I'm going to work," (often to people who don't know I'm a teacher. But
this is a hold over from being assumed to be significantly younger than I
actually am. If I say, "I'm going to school," to someone who doesn't know I'm
a teacher, most often the reaction I get is, "oh really? Do you go to Dimond
or Service?" (two of the high schools here in town).
On the weekends (or evenings, or other non-school/work times) if someone asks
me where I'm going, I might say, "I'm going to the school." This assumes that
they know I'm a teacher and they know where I teach.
In terms of 'higher' education, quite often here in the US, college/university
are used interchangeably - at least in conversation.
(The following was quite frequent when I was an undergraduate. I was several
years younger than the average college/university student, AND I looked several
years younger than my actual age - it was a doubly whammy, so to speak.)
"So, do you go to Service or Dimond?"
<me> "Neither. I'm in college."
"Oh, are you at King Career Center?" (a sort of "tech-go while you're in high
school and learn a trade" Jr. College kinda thing.)
<me> "No, I'm over at the University."
So, I'm "in college," at "the University."
Just my two-cents.
Alexis.
Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different
speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing.
- Clive James
I agree with Spin - but some of Ray's preference (and Spin's) is likely
regional; I think Brits, Assies, Kiwis, and other colonial/former
colonial British-derived English-users drop articles much more freely
than do we in the States. ("she was in hospital" fex)
Denny, you've touched on something interesting that one of my US readers
picked up (actually, I thought it was you, but I was wrong).
Four words occur to me that have this special treatment in English:
hospital, school, university, college.
<snip>
If I were a teacher, I'd not say "I'm going to school". I'd say "I'm going
[over] to the school."
Oh good, something I can talk about <g>
I say either, "I'm going to school," (usually to people who know I'm a
teacher)
or "I'm going to work," (often to people who don't know I'm a teacher. But
this is a hold over from being assumed to be significantly younger than I
actually am. If I say, "I'm going to school," to someone who doesn't know
I'm
a teacher, most often the reaction I get is, "oh really? Do you go to Dimond
or Service?" (two of the high schools here in town).
On the weekends (or evenings, or other non-school/work times) if someone asks
me where I'm going, I might say, "I'm going to the school." This assumes
that
they know I'm a teacher and they know where I teach.
In terms of 'higher' education, quite often here in the US,
college/university
are used interchangeably - at least in conversation.
(The following was quite frequent when I was an undergraduate. I was several
years younger than the average college/university student, AND I looked
several
years younger than my actual age - it was a doubly whammy, so to speak.)
"So, do you go to Service or Dimond?"
<me> "Neither. I'm in college."
"Oh, are you at King Career Center?" (a sort of "tech-go while you're in high
school and learn a trade" Jr. College kinda thing.)
<me> "No, I'm over at the University."
So, I'm "in college," at "the University."
Just my two-cents.
I've never had a problem understanding "to hospital." I also understand the in
versus at terminology. But like Alexis, I have a relevant contribution that's
workplace related.
Does anyone recall where I've said I worked? If I say, "I'm going to prison,"
everyone assumes the context of incarceration. If I say I'm in the prison,
same thing. I'm at the prison - I just work there.
Gary Jordan
"Old submariners never die. It's not within their scope."
http://www.asstr.org/~gary/
http://www.asstr.org/~gary/Clitorides/
http://www.asstr.org/~gary/ShonRichards/
http://www.asstr.org/spotlight.html
http://www.storiesonline.net/
Denny, you've touched on something interesting that one of my US readers
picked up (actually, I thought it was you, but I was wrong).
Four words occur to me that have this special treatment in English:
hospital, school, university, college.
If I say "You must go to hospital", I mean that you must go as a patient.
If I say "You must go to school", I mean that you must go as a pupil. If I
say "I am going to university", I mean that you go as an undergraduate.
Ditto for college.
If I were a teacher, I'd not say "I'm going to school". I'd say "I'm going
[over] to the school." To say of a doctor, "He or she is in hospital" would
imply that he or she was a patient. You'd use the article otherwise.
It's a bit like being "in limbo" or "in heaven". These words have a state-
ness about them, and that's the reason the article is dropped. The
following would both be unidiomatic:
"She's in infirmary."
"She's in office." (Or any other room.)
Actually, we do use the latter in referring to politicians, but it
means that they currently hold a political office, rather than that
they're physically present in their offices; the Shrub is in office
(more's the pity) whether he happens to actually be in the Oval Office
or not.
We're really looking at a very special aspect of English usage. Do you say
"I went to school" as opposed to "I went to [a or the] school"? I think
it's the same sort of thing.
We do say "I went to school" and "I went to college," but, oddly
enough, we don't drop the article before "hospital" or "university" in
common American usage. Saying "I'm in hospital" or "I'm going to
university" marks you instantly as a speaker of British (or
Commonwealth) English.
Later,
Jacques
The story "Monsoon" seems to be raising the question of "what is
a monsoon?" The people who know aren't giving all that much
help. They keep using the word to describe the idea.
Okay, "monsoon" applies to two entirely different phenomena which
always come together.
One is a wind blowing always in the same direction (at a given
season of the year). This is utterly unlike a cyclone. (The
equivalent of a cyclone is a "typhoon.") It always blows in the
same direction for months at a time.
The second phenomenon is the rain which accompanies that wind,
especially the onset of that rain.
(To be terribly technical, there are two monsoons. Some places
are hit by both, like Kerala. Some are only hit by one. They
involve winds in different directions and at different times of
the year.)
If you live in the area, you know when the monsoon is coming
within a few days. OTOH, you don't plan to stop moving for the
"rains." People in Minnesnota and N. Dakota don't say: "January?
I can't come to work then; I'll probably be snowbound."
To give you some idea as to how dependable those winds are,
consider the spice trade in the early years of this era.
In those days, the accepted sea route from Palestine to Rome was
coast-wise. Ships did not cross the Mediterranean; they
crawled around the coast in a quite indirect path. (They did
cross the neck of the Adriatic.) Read the voyages of Paul with a
good map in your hand.
At that time someone (I think he was blown off course by
accident) discovered that you could sail on the South East
Monsoon from the mouth of the Red Sea (Okay, more like Cape
Guardafi) across the entire Arabian Sea to the Malabar coast.
You could also sail on the Northwest Monsoon back again.
And Greek ship captains who barely left the sight of land in their
homewaters routinely took that trip for centuries to come.
Physically, the monsoon is a positive-feedback system. The wind
blows air saturated with water vapor off the tropical seas onto
land. The air rises and cools. The cooling dumps some of the
water vapor as rain. The condensation of the water vapor warms
the air. The warm air rises further. It dumps more water vapor.
As that goes on, the air moves inland. The rising of the warmed
air creates a low-pressure area which draws more air after it.
Any one area gets a constant stream of warm, wet, air off the
sea. The rain can go on for quite some time.
In major sections of the tropics, there are one or two rainy
seasons and one or two dry seasons. People don't talk about
"hot" and "cold" seasons. (And in some of those areas, the dry
seasons wouldn't impress a Texan as dry; some of Kerala wouldn't
impress Seattle as dry.)
Very interesting, Alexis. In the UK we would use the phrase "in college" to
mean "residing or located within the college precincts", but we'd say "at
college" to mean the same as "at school".
O.
From: oosh
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 16:49:43 GMT
Does anyone recall where I've said I worked? If I say, "I'm going to
prison," everyone assumes the context of incarceration. If I say I'm
in the prison, same thing. I'm at the prison - I just work there.
Thanks for that example - it works the same way in the UK. I think we'd find
it OK to say "I work in the prison" or "at the prison".
O.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 12:58:03 -0600
Very interesting, Alexis. In the UK we would use the phrase "in college" to
mean "residing or located within the college precincts", but we'd say "at
college" to mean the same as "at school".
It is one of the usage differences between UK and American English.
There are a lot of other subtle ones like that.
A somewhat related one is the use of articles with ship names. USA
civilian tradition says you say 'The Enterprise is coming into port
today.' Military tradition says you don't need to use the article
because it is a she (person), or some such. 'Enterprise is coming
into port today'.
University and College also have somewhat specific meanings, at
least in the USA. We mix them up, but for example, I attended college
(a specfic part of the school, with its own dean and buildings) at the
university (the larger school structure, consisting of more than one
building and in my case, more than one campus (school grounds)
separated by several miles.
Not that it relates to the in college, the college, etc. And having
dealt with UK and other people, I can say "I went to university"
without feeling compelled to put in some defining article. Whereas it
is OK in USA'n to say "I went to college." Note that in both cases,
it would be interpreted as attending the institution, not travelling
to the place. We'd tend to put in a or the in such a case.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: dennyw
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 12:51:05 -0800
On 05 Mar 2002 05:59:41 GMT, [email protected] (Alexis
Siefert) held forth, saying:
If I say, "I'm going to school," to someone who doesn't know I'm
a teacher, most often the reaction I get is, "oh really? Do you go to Dimond
or Service?" (two of the high schools here in town).
At least now they're asking you about high schools, not junior
high ....
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: Conjugate
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 17:03:41 -0500
I agree with Spin - but some of Ray's preference (and Spin's) is likely
regional; I think Brits, Assies, Kiwis, and other colonial/former
colonial British-derived English-users drop articles much more freely
than do we in the States. ("she was in hospital" fex)
Denny, you've touched on something interesting that one of my US readers
picked up (actually, I thought it was you, but I was wrong).
Four words occur to me that have this special treatment in English:
hospital, school, university, college.
H'm. Wasn't aware of the latter 3.
"In school" and "in college" are also USA-used variants. "In hospital" and
"In university" are not. I'm not sure why the difference, but we would say,
"Jeff's at the University now, working on his Master's degree," and it would
sound funny to say, "Jeff's at University ..." where we would not hesitate to
say, "Jeff's at college," or "Jeff's in college ..." for whatever reason.
Snipping to get to:
For the doctor-patient dichotomy, we seem (IME) to use 'at': "Oh, Dr.
Kafka is at the hospital." (suggests that Dr. K works there)
"Dr. Crippen is in the hospital." has the stateness of being a
patient attached.
I've heard of Crippen, but can't place the reference.
It's a bit like being "in limbo" or "in heaven". These words have a
state-
ness about them, and that's the reason the article is dropped. The
following would both be unidiomatic:
But for both of those (and hell) there's also their uniqueness.
There's only one limbo/heaven/hell.
A-HA! Got you! You've never heard of "7th Heaven," I suppose?
We very likely would (and in fact I've heard and seen) "Joe's in
University Hospital." I don't think I've ever seen "in the <name>
Hospital."
Now that's downright mysterious. In Americanese:
"Joe's in College" - OK
"Joes's in University" - Not OK, should be "the University."
"Joe's in University Hospital" - OK again.
"Joe's in College Hospital" - Still OK. ???
I'm in the trouble, here, I think.
Conjugate
on computer again.
From: oosh
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 23:52:13 GMT
I've heard of Crippen, but can't place the reference.
Crippen was the first murderer to be caught as a result of a radio message.
He was (by all accounts) something of a henpecked husband. He then met and
fell in love with a pretty waif, and decided to make a new life for
himself. So he slipped his wife something a little stronger than vitamins
that cured bed-wetting, henpecking and all other diseases known to man; and
then carefully cut her into little tiny pieces, which he buried in the
basement of his home. Then he bought two tickets on a transatlantic liner,
and hopped it with his waif. To avoid suspicion, she dressed as a boy and
posed as his son. A sharp-eyed observer thought that this "son" had a
rather nice bottom and reported his or her suspicions to the authorities.
They radioed back to Britain and were sent a description of Crippen. He was
arrested, broke down and confessed.
He was shipped back to Britain and was hanged for the murder of his wife. I
forget what happened to his "son".
Probably Google could tell you more and better than I.
O.
From: oosh
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 00:02:32 GMT
Actually, we do use the latter in referring to politicians, but it
means that they currently hold a political office, rather than that
they're physically present in their offices; the Shrub is in office
(more's the pity) whether he happens to actually be in the Oval Office
or not.
Yes, I was thinking on tram-lines. We use "in office" in exactly that sense
too.
O.
From: oosh
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 16:35:12 GMT
Jeff Zephyr <[email protected]> wrote in news:3c842915$0$35570$272ea4a1
@news.execpc.com:
Stoner is pretty easy. It is someone who gets stoned. That is,
stoned on drugs, pot being the preferred favorite.
Thanks for explaining!
O.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 12:14:54 -0600
Well, the rest of me would be really grateful to have the word "stoner"
explained. Sorry to be so crass!
"Stoner" refers (especially in high school or college) to one who uses
recreational drugs with sufficient enthusiasm as to be clearly under their
influence much of the day. AKA pothead, druggy.
See, in many high schools, there are cliques formed based on broad
personality types. There are the athletes (Jocks), the stoners, the geeks,
and a few other groups that may vary based on region and/or culture. For
instance, many people who identify themselves with their love of music might
not fall into any of those categories.
There are lots of social groups, and stoners were a big one.
Probably still are :0)
I weep for the decadent youth of today.
I'm still too busy weeping for the decadent youth of yesterday! (People,
she was beautiful.)
Yeah, I know. One of the sad aspects of being socially backward is the
memory of all the girls in high school that I believe in retrospect I could
have had sex with, but didn't understand what was going on at the time.
Sigh.
You are supposed to figure out how to be decadent while your body is
young enough to handle the side effects. Good girls do, you know?
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: dennyw
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 12:37:06 -0800
On Tue, 05 Mar 2002 03:04:35 GMT, Selena Jardine
<[email protected]> held forth, saying:
Conjugate wrote:
<snip>
Yeah, I know. One of the sad aspects of being socially backward is the
memory of all the girls in high school that I believe in retrospect I could
have had sex with, but didn't understand what was going on at the time.
Sigh.
What is this? James Dean cocksure (ahem, pardon) hindsight, or
massive present-day humility, or the reverse, or both?
My head hurts.
I think it's more along the lines of,
For of all sad words of tongue or pen,
The saddest are these: "It might have been!"
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: Conjugate
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 16:41:27 -0500
Yeah, I know. One of the sad aspects of being socially backward is the
memory of all the girls in high school that I believe in retrospect I
could
have had sex with, but didn't understand what was going on at the time.
Sigh.
What is this? James Dean cocksure (ahem, pardon) hindsight, or
massive present-day humility, or the reverse, or both?
My head hurts.
Sorry to give you a headache. It's just that, in High School, I was shy,
and teased a great deal by some people. One young woman got me alone in an
office at one point after hours, and asked me if I knew much about pussy. I
assumed she was simply looking for an opportunity to make fun of me. In
retrospect, and knowing things I found out about her later, I think I was
wrong; she was looking to get her rocks off. There were other occasions,
some vaguer in my memory, so perhaps they are wishful thinking.
Conjugate
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 19:19:10 -0600
On Tue, 5 Mar 2002 16:41:27 -0500, "Conjugate"
<[email protected]> wrote:
Yeah, I know. One of the sad aspects of being socially backward is the
memory of all the girls in high school that I believe in retrospect I
could
have had sex with, but didn't understand what was going on at the time.
Sigh.
What is this? James Dean cocksure (ahem, pardon) hindsight, or
massive present-day humility, or the reverse, or both?
My head hurts.
It is easy to get a headache, thinking about all the things you
could have done, or might have been. I, for example, detest
suggestions (based on age and background) that I could have been Bill
Gates. I never wanted to be him. The money, that is cool, but I
liked Gary Kildall better (Digital Research, makers of CP/M).
Everyone gets to make choices, and some change who you are, more than
you want to change.
Sorry to give you a headache. It's just that, in High School, I was shy,
and teased a great deal by some people. One young woman got me alone in an
office at one point after hours, and asked me if I knew much about pussy. I
assumed she was simply looking for an opportunity to make fun of me. In
retrospect, and knowing things I found out about her later, I think I was
wrong; she was looking to get her rocks off. There were other occasions,
some vaguer in my memory, so perhaps they are wishful thinking.
Both boys and girls use teasing for friendship and seduction. It
just can be really hard to recognize when there is some good side to
the bad behavior. I can't generalize, I can just pass along my
experience.
Which probably won't help you feel better. But maybe it will? I
knew a girl like that. She and her best friend got together with me
in the auditorium study hall, which pretty much was a place to fool
around and talk, no worries about being near enough anyone to
interfere with your work - or other discussions. I knew her
reputation, and she seemed unlikely to go out with me. She liked
older boys with cars, jocks mostly. It was my first high school year,
and though I'd had one nice romance it didn't last, and apparently had
no effect on my reputation (the fact that we kept it secret probably
didn't help that). She'd teased me before, not so intensely, and not
so much about sex. Her friend was kind of shy, unlike her, but she'd
butt in with questions and comments.
I wasn't good at handling teasing. I could take serious discussion
and humor, but not teasing, so this situation bugged me. Not enough
to leave, and I tried to figure out whether she was really being mean,
or had some nice feelings for me. It went on to some "what have you
done" sorts of questions, and to around to a sort of dare to actually
prove it. My claims vs. hers, more or less.
OK, that was probably easier because I'd had sex at that point, but
you have to get to that stage somehow, don't you? Anyway, we ended up
going out for almost a year. However, even if I had been a virgin and
clueless about sex, she might have gone for it anyway. That was how
she was. It turned her on to seduce boys, and once her reputation for
doing such things was made, she figured it couldn't hurt to take
advantage of it. You can't erase a reputation; you can find nice boys
(and others) to stand up for who you are.
I can't answer for all girls, but some do like shy boys. For that
matter, some boys like shy girls, especially if they share common
interests. I was one of those sorts; drama, math, and chess clubs
aren't the sort of places which suggest social action of the dating
sort, but ours had some nice girls in them.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: dennyw
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 01:33:32 -0800
On Tue, 5 Mar 2002 17:03:41 -0500, "Conjugate"
<[email protected]> held forth, saying:
We very likely would (and in fact I've heard and seen) "Joe's in
University Hospital." I don't think I've ever seen "in the <name>
Hospital."
Now that's downright mysterious. In Americanese:
"Joe's in College" - OK
"Joes's in University" - Not OK, should be "the University."
"Joe's in University Hospital" - OK again.
"Joe's in College Hospital" - Still OK. ???
I'm in the trouble, here, I think.
I guess I should have picked another hospital than the one near the
University of Washington. (University Hospital, oddly).
How about Walter Reed Hospital instead? Please replace 'University
Hospital' with it. :)
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: dennyw
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 01:35:24 -0800
On Wed, 06 Mar 2002 00:02:32 GMT, oosh <[email protected]> held
forth, saying:
Actually, we do use the latter in referring to politicians, but it
means that they currently hold a political office, rather than that
they're physically present in their offices; the Shrub is in office
(more's the pity) whether he happens to actually be in the Oval Office
or not.
Yes, I was thinking on tram-lines. We use "in office" in exactly that sense
too.
But our pols are more active than yours: ours 'run for office' whereas
yours 'stand for office.'
Never quite got that one.
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 20:09:48 -0600
Actually, we do use the latter in referring to politicians, but it
means that they currently hold a political office, rather than that
they're physically present in their offices; the Shrub is in office
(more's the pity) whether he happens to actually be in the Oval Office
or not.
Yes, I was thinking on tram-lines. We use "in office" in exactly that sense
too.
But our pols are more active than yours: ours 'run for office' whereas
yours 'stand for office.'
Never quite got that one.
In the USA, candidates must run around the country collecting
support. In the UK, the guy stood up and said he was willing to take
the office if someone would vote him in. Democracy in the UK took a
bit to get to active political campaiging, with all that running
around, kissing babies, eating bad food, and the other things which
make American politicians so bad-tempered ... er, tough.
That makes sense to me. I could look it up, but I'd guess that the
town meeting tradition of standing up when nominated probably has
something to do with it.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Conjugate
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 23:54:53 -0500
But our pols are more active than yours: ours 'run for office' whereas
yours 'stand for office.'
Never quite got that one.
In the USA, candidates must run around the country collecting
support. In the UK, the guy stood up and said he was willing to take
the office if someone would vote him in. Democracy in the UK took a
bit to get to active political campaiging, with all that running
around, kissing babies, eating bad food, and the other things which
make American politicians so bad-tempered ... er, tough.
That makes sense to me. I could look it up, but I'd guess that the
town meeting tradition of standing up when nominated probably has
something to do with it.
Well, I had an alternative (silly) idea: It seemed to me that an American
politician might say, "By golly, I won't stand for this kind of unseemly
corruption - I'll run for it!" Whereas a British politician would say,
"Well, I will stand for this kind of unseemly corruption!" But then, I am
probably too cynical and bitter. No doubt it is all the hops in my beer
having that effect.
Conjugate
who's taken to drinking good beer.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 13:07:40 -0600
On Sat, 9 Mar 2002 23:54:53 -0500, "Conjugate"
<[email protected]> wrote:
But our pols are more active than yours: ours 'run for office' whereas
yours 'stand for office.'
Never quite got that one.
In the USA, candidates must run around the country collecting
support. In the UK, the guy stood up and said he was willing to take
the office if someone would vote him in. Democracy in the UK took a
bit to get to active political campaiging, with all that running
around, kissing babies, eating bad food, and the other things which
make American politicians so bad-tempered ... er, tough.
That makes sense to me. I could look it up, but I'd guess that the
town meeting tradition of standing up when nominated probably has
something to do with it.
Well, I had an alternative (silly) idea: It seemed to me that an American
politician might say, "By golly, I won't stand for this kind of unseemly
corruption - I'll run for it!" Whereas a British politician would say,
"Well, I will stand for this kind of unseemly corruption!" But then, I am
probably too cynical and bitter. No doubt it is all the hops in my beer
having that effect.
Maybe, in America the candidate has farther to go to get to office
too?
Cynical? I don't know - in Milwaukee County, WI, USA, the county
board and supervisor have resigned over a retirement benefit scandal
involving millions in payout. They "didn't read it carefully enough"
before signing the pay deal. Right? ;-)
Ok, they are out now, and have said they won't take the money. The
courts still have to resolve whether they can decline such payment
when it has been authorized by law. The idea of taking a job for four
years, then getting millions (well above salary) in lump sum plus
annual pension would sure attract a lot of people to politics,
wouldn't it?
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
On 05 Mar 2002 05:59:41 GMT, [email protected] (Alexis
Siefert) held forth, saying:
If I say, "I'm going to school," to someone who doesn't know I'm
a teacher, most often the reaction I get is, "oh really? Do you go to
Dimond
or Service?" (two of the high schools here in town).
At least now they're asking you about high schools, not junior
high ....
And it's about damn time, too.
Alexis.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 20:12:34 -0600
On 06 Mar 2002 13:09:14 GMT, [email protected] (Alexis
Siefert) wrote:
On 05 Mar 2002 05:59:41 GMT, [email protected] (Alexis
Siefert) held forth, saying:
If I say, "I'm going to school," to someone who doesn't know I'm
a teacher, most often the reaction I get is, "oh really? Do you go to
Dimond
or Service?" (two of the high schools here in town).
At least now they're asking you about high schools, not junior
high ....
And it's about damn time, too.
Sure, but in the long run you need to count your blessings. It is
kind of cool to be carded, and asked where your parents are, when
you're 30-something.
At least, if the reason is that you look young rather than just too
short to be an adult. That discrimination against short people thing
is annoying.
If you are thinking about an acting career, though, Hollywood needs
30-somethings able to play high school kids all the time. I guess
that real high school age actors just aren't believable (or box office
draws) in those roles :-) Or else the child labor laws make it hard
to shoot the movies around their school schedules?
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: dennyw
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 20:30:05 -0800
On Wed, 06 Mar 2002 20:12:34 -0600, Jeff Zephyr <[email protected]>
held forth, saying:
At least now they're asking you about high schools, not junior
high ....
And it's about damn time, too.
Sure, but in the long run you need to count your blessings. It is
kind of cool to be carded, and asked where your parents are, when
you're 30-something.
At least, if the reason is that you look young rather than just too
short to be an adult.
On Wed, 06 Mar 2002 20:12:34 -0600, Jeff Zephyr <[email protected]>
held forth, saying:
At least now they're asking you about high schools, not junior
high ....
And it's about damn time, too.
Sure, but in the long run you need to count your blessings. It is
kind of cool to be carded, and asked where your parents are, when
you're 30-something.
At least, if the reason is that you look young rather than just too
short to be an adult.
How 'bout if it's both?
<sigh> Well, if you're going to do something, do it all the way, I suppose.
Short and junior high appearance. Just delightful. Looking young may have
it's benefits, but it also makes parent-teacher conferences highly challenging.
"And you're old enough to be teaching our pride and joy?"
<sigh>
Alexis.
Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different
speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing.
- Clive James
On Wed, 06 Mar 2002 20:12:34 -0600, Jeff Zephyr <[email protected]>
held forth, saying:
At least now they're asking you about high schools, not junior
high ....
And it's about damn time, too.
Sure, but in the long run you need to count your blessings. It is
kind of cool to be carded, and asked where your parents are, when
you're 30-something.
At least, if the reason is that you look young rather than just too
short to be an adult.
How 'bout if it's both?
<sigh> Well, if you're going to do something, do it all the way, I suppose.
Short and junior high appearance. Just delightful. Looking young may have
it's benefits, but it also makes parent-teacher conferences highly challenging.
"And you're old enough to be teaching our pride and joy?"
Of course, didn't they ever watch Doogie Howser? ;-)
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 12:04:47 -0600
On Wed, 06 Mar 2002 20:12:34 -0600, Jeff Zephyr <[email protected]>
held forth, saying:
At least now they're asking you about high schools, not junior
high ....
And it's about damn time, too.
Sure, but in the long run you need to count your blessings. It is
kind of cool to be carded, and asked where your parents are, when
you're 30-something.
At least, if the reason is that you look young rather than just too
short to be an adult.
How 'bout if it's both?
OK, that can make it a little harder. On the other hand, you don't
have to shrink much with age to turn into a little old lady. Is that
a bonus? :-0
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Conjugate
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 23:49:06 -0500
If you are thinking about an acting career, though, Hollywood needs
30-somethings able to play high school kids all the time. I guess
that real high school age actors just aren't believable (or box office
draws) in those roles :-) Or else the child labor laws make it hard
to shoot the movies around their school schedules?
Probably a little of each. Remember the movie Scream, in which Drew
Barrymore and Neve Campbell both played high-school students? Ms. Barrymore
was in her early thirties at the time, and Ms. Campbell in her late 20s or
so, I think. It's possible that the directors and producers prefer actors
with:
1) a good track record, and
2) proven maturity, and
3) box-office drawing power,
so that the only folks who can perform in their movies with those qualities
are in (at least) their twenties.
Conjugate
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 13:03:59 -0600
On Sat, 9 Mar 2002 23:49:06 -0500, "Conjugate"
<[email protected]> wrote:
If you are thinking about an acting career, though, Hollywood needs
30-somethings able to play high school kids all the time. I guess
that real high school age actors just aren't believable (or box office
draws) in those roles :-) Or else the child labor laws make it hard
to shoot the movies around their school schedules?
Probably a little of each. Remember the movie Scream, in which Drew
Barrymore and Neve Campbell both played high-school students? Ms. Barrymore
was in her early thirties at the time, and Ms. Campbell in her late 20s or
so, I think. It's possible that the directors and producers prefer actors
with:
1) a good track record, and
2) proven maturity, and
3) box-office drawing power,
so that the only folks who can perform in their movies with those qualities
are in (at least) their twenties.
I can see why it works that way. It just remains a reason why
someone relatively short and young looking will always do well in
Hollywood (and TV and other things like that) because finding actual
HS age kids who can act well is hard.
There is also the growing-up on TV thing which affects some TV
shows. The kids chosen to play younger ones grow up, and turn out
taller and more mature looking than the older ones played by even
older actors. Does put some limits on the run time of some TV shows,
before you have to make changes to let the family grow.
I still think it can be fun to take advantage of the "problem" of
being short and young looking. It makes up for the disadvantages that
can have.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/
For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
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Comments on Monsoon, by DrSpin.
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From: PleaseCain
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 25 Feb 2002 19:19:19 GMT
Your imagery like caramel mud or being mad as a cut snake, some of your verbs, your nice handling of present tense - all give the story immediacy. I also like the fact that you let us readers work regarding the subject matter, to fill in the blanks on our own, without being too vague. It's a fine line between a good story such as this, and an unsatisfying one. Also, the sex carries a primal quality that reflects the muck and storm and anger in the air. Good touch.
That said, it probably wouldn't hurt to thread in a bit more explanation or backstory, as long as you can work such details into the text without hindering the flow (otherwise, I wouldn't do it).
The lead paragraph is more confusing than inviting to me; after the first two sentences described the weather, the third sentence was too cryptic. I reread that third sentence a couple times, thinking "how can a river be stuck, trapped and stripped of purpose?" The statement becomes clear five sentences later, but I would rather you cut the first paragraph entirely. Or at least the third and fourth sentences.
Excellent story, Spin.
Cain
From: Father Ignatius
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 25 Feb 2002 11:40:32 -0800
[email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...
Muuuuuhahahaha! I get to go first. Apparently. I hope.
Father Nat clambers unsteadily onto the banquette, ululating embarrassingly and sloshing single malt broadcast. "This," he says owlishly, wagging his finger at the assembled multitude in that particular manner that everyone finds so annoying, "is what we must show the next self-indulgent fucker who comes down the pike and says, 'I don't like polishing stories, it bores me,' or whatever. This, kiddies, is what it's all about. The Real Thing. Audience-indulgent writing. The kid's doing all the right things."
"There is a peculiar pleasure, as someone once remarked (let's say it was Mark Twain: it usually is), in watching someone doing something difficult and doing it really well. The short-short-story (no typo) is one of the most fiendishly difficult things to do at all, let alone well - and let any scoffer first try his or her hand at at a pastiche of, say, H.H. Munro ("Saki"). Of 'Tobermory,' frinstance, or 'Sredni Vashtar.' And here, kiddies, we have a little gem of a short-short-story. Well fucking done, that boy."
Father Nat paused for a small, post-prandial belch.
"Oh, shit, what was the other thing? Oh, yes. I remember we had a thread a while back about what it takes to write a good story. Joyce eventually killed it ..."
Father Nat squinted through the tobacco-smoke twilight into the the back of the room, hoping Joyce was there. He waved, Justin Case.
" ...by posting a URL to an excellent essay the refrain of which was, 'But you still gotta have talent.' 'Smy other point [burrrp]. Kid's got talent. He should think about going pro."
[There will be a small Brownie point for the boy or girl who can find that post of Joyce's and a somewhat bigger one if they can find the essay to which it adverted. We should have it on permanent display around here, framed.]
1. Ace Dyson was not in the story.
2. The sex scene was coy.
From: dennyw
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 13:30:17 -0800
On 25 Feb 2002 11:40:32 -0800, [email protected] (Father Ignatius) held forth, saying:
He's asleep in vehicle #3, having just polished his penultimate bottle of malt.
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: Selena Jardine
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 21:54:36 GMT
[email protected] wrote:
That sounds like a euphemism to me.
Selena
[email protected]
From: Father Ignatius
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:43:50 +0200
"Selena Jardine" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
Ah, the euph of today.
"Father Ignatius" <[email protected]> http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Stories.html The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: Nicholas Urfe
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 25 Feb 2002 13:28:53 -0800
[email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...
+ This is a complete story by Dr. Spin ... He requests that we + show him no mercy in our comments. In fact, he suggests we pull + out our knuckle-dusters. (I'm going to have to borrow someone + else's.)
Oh, not me. I've been gunning for this Lothario since Day 1. Lock and load, baby; let's roll! [TM]
But first, a moment of silence for our collective dicta:
+ 1) 2 positive comments 2) 2 things to improve 3) Try not to + repeat!
Now: this is, of course, an exercise in voice. (I mean, it's a story, yes, but the story calls attention to itself mostly through its voice.) Sparse, stripped sentences heavy on the visual cues and light on interpretation, the present tense (and as an aside: how can people make blanket statements like "I hate stories written in the present tense?" I mean, de gustibus and all that, and yes, it can suck, but it can also be done very well, and there's an immediacy it gives you - as well as a certain informality, of a story being told, rather than written; an air of having been tossed off insouciantly rather than crafted and sweated over and agonized [though one may very well indeed have sweated and agonized to carefully craft that air of insouciance] - I mean, it's another tool in the kit, and one should not be so quick as to toss it away or reject out of hand the use of it by others) so deftly setting the scene - take a look. After the basic setting is laid before us: bridge, rivers, rain, stalled cars, mud mud and mud, after (if you will) the opening establishing shot, we get -
. Suddenly something different. Hoarse shouting, incoherent. A . person wearing wet white clothes jerks and lollops down the line . of vehicles, waving arms erratically, as mad as a cut snake.
Sentence fragments, but so what? We're in service to a higher calling than Grammar 101, here. You've been lulled by all that "mud, mud, mud," by the "nine muddy morose people" who mostly "sit in there vehicles and wait," and then you're jerked, your attention is caught. Something is different. What? Hoarse shouting. Okay, look - a person, wet white clothes, lollops, mad as a cut snake. The basic information you need to parse the scene is shot at you rapid-fire, presented pretty much as it would occur to you were you there, in one of those cars: your attention is caught, you hear something, you look. The tone of voice, sentence and paragraph structure, the rhythm of the words - all that is what's putting you there, in that scene - moreso even than the visual cues. (Bonus points for "lollops." Onomatopoeia, to boot.)
Note also what the voice doesn't do: it doesn't get in the way. Only rarely does it presume to judge, or give us information that we couldn't get by being there and seeing it ourselves - it tells us the woman's skin is clammily cold to the man's touch; it tells us she has a "sun-burst climax" and that she feels semen trickling down her thigh, specific details particular to the sense of touch (or otherwise) of one or another character. Other times, it does some minor processing of the visual cues for us, but nothing we couldn't guess ourselves: the collective voice of the woman's "dull audience": "What's she saying? What's she doing? Christ, when will that fucking rain stop?"; what runs through the (for want of a better word) husband's mind as he waves her off dismissively: "He's had enough of her antics." It does tell us how to read the way she takes off her clothes: "She might be mad but she's not so crazy she'd drop her clothes in the mud" - but lightly, suggesting more than telling, really, making a quick point deftly and getting back the hell out of the way. (To the extent that anything so attention-getting can be said to be out of the way, but what is art or criticism without paradox? - Back, Nicholas. Out of the way.)
So the voice? The voice is good. Pozzie numero uno.
Dva: the scenario. The setting, the show, the collective and singular insanity of humans under pressure, the claustrophobia of the relentless rain and the mud mud mud, the quick and nasty sex - "She hangs to him limply, dizzy, stupid, while he pushes and grinds to his own satisfaction" - all to the good. Masterful, even.
Unfortunately, these two pozzies are at war with each other.
The voice - the voice that distances us from the particulars of the characters even as it embeds us in the particulars of the scene - that voice works best, I think, in circumstances that are familiar to the reader, and about which the reader can easily make assumptions. (Note that it can either live up to these assumptions, or yank the rug out from under them.) It is an objectifying technique, and is ideally suited to giving us something new to see or think about something we'd thought was familiar, dull, done to death. - But this circumstance, this setting, this concatenation of characters and situation and rain and mud, the madnesses, the problems, the desires stifled and otherwise - this is wild, rich stuff, and I want to see more of it, all of it, every bit. (I'm greedy, I am.) - I'm not saying, for inst, that I want everything about the woman's relationship with her (presumed) husband explained; nor am I saying I want her to ever say anything at all to the man she fucks, but I do think the decision to go utterly dialogueless was a mistake. (In this particular instance.) But more than that: that final image, of the line of cars united in their approbation, is powerful enough that it needs to come at the end of a build-up; it needs something to stand in opposition to, to drive its point home. We need to see the people in this line AS people, not solely as a dulled audience. We need to begin earlier in this story, or begin in the same place, but sketch out more specifics as we go along, about this car, or that. Show us the faces of each before melding them into a honking queue. The form is masterful, and well-constructed, but it ill-serves its beautiful content. (Not, mind you, that one can ever cleanly separate the two, but let's pretend we can.)
Neggie two, and I'll cheat and lump some minor considerations together. The queue and the woman's place in it is unclear at the start. The establishing shot does not really place us much of anywhere in the queue at the start, and so I assumed we "were" at the head of it; thus, when the woman came "down" the queue, I saw her walking from back to front, and this was reinforced by the ambiguous line "She gets to the back of the queue, and as she retraces her steps she starts taking off her clothes." - It's hard to tell if she retraces her steps AS she gets to the back of the queue, or AFTER. I'd read it as AS, and so when she ends up at the FRONT of the queue, I was confused. A little more clarity at the opening will fix this problem - which, I concede, might not have been a problem at all for some readers.
Also: there is a conceptual rhythm - a structural rhythm - as well as the more usual rhythm of cadence and tone and timbre and all that physical stuff. That ineffable conceptual rhythm falters in a couple of passages, but most notably here:
. He has dark growth of beard on his face. He is wiry and . weather-hardened, a man of remote distance. He snarls with . pleasure, and he has a missing front tooth.
The sound of it is fine, full of roughly simple music. But "He snarls with pleasure, and he has a missing front tooth" - that nags. We're calling on two different senses in that last sentence - after a sally of visual cues, and a judgement call based on those cues ("a man of remote distance," and were I feeling less charitable, I'd quibble with the seeming redundancy there; there's a better way to put that, I think); then a sound cue, and then right back to sight. Which is fine, but a bit off-putting in the same sentence. Also: the snippet about his missing tooth is something that we discover BECAUSE he snarled in pleasure; joining it with an "and" like that downplays the causality. - The "and" would work if we were more fully in her point of view, and the sentence ran thusly: "He snarls with pleasure, and she sees he has a missing front tooth" - and I suspect the "and" is a holdover from that common-enough construction. But I would militate STRONGLY against putting "she sees" in there. Those two words would wreck the entire mood (and purpose) that's been built up thus far. Instead, keep to short, declarative sentences, and break the two pieces of information each to its own: "He snarls with pleasure. One of his front teeth is missing." Or even "He snarls with pleasure. There's a gap where one of his front teeth should be." Something like that.
But overall, we have a curious problem here - at least, as I see it: a fine handle, and a fine blade, but the knife itself isn't all it could be. I think we need two knives, each with the blade and handle that suits it. - Hey! It'd mean more stories from Spin, right? And this is a bad thing how?
There. Dust off my hands, freshen my drink. Ah. Next?
Best,
- n.
"When they steadied, I looked at them slantwise. Poets will know what I mean by slantwise: it is a way of looking through a difficult word or phrase to discover the meaning lurking behind the letters. I saw that the placard was a titulus, the Roman superscription nailed above the heads of criminals at the place of execution, explaining their crime. I found myself reading out: DOMITIANUS CAESAR LEGATOS XTI VILITER INTERFECIT."
such brilliance, left behind:
http://www.asstr.org/~nickurfe/ift/
http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: Father Ignatius
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:13:40 +0200
"Nicholas Urfe" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
You very, very quietly added the apostrophe, thinking that no-one would notice or, if they did, they would be too much of a gentleman to refrain from commenting.
Think again, bright angel.
"Father Ignatius" <[email protected]> http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Stories.html The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: celia batau
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:49:43 -0800
hi Des and Spin!
"Desdmona22" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
pozzie one: the imagery is beautiful. :) esp how the grit or the slime of the mud seems to coat everything.
pozzie two: we like how the rain and the river form a frame around the scene. like a moment in time and in place.
neggie one: narration is a bit too vague. there's nothing to hold to. we had to assemble the line of cars, the river, and the characters together. maybe the rain was supposed to fog that, make things indestinct, but the story itself seems clear and concrete enough that it conflicts. like "two days and no way out" suggests a narrator or a pov in the story, but there's only a roating perspective like a helicoptor circling the scene.
neggie two: communication. the woman's trying to communicate something. to the man (dervish dance). to the ppl in the cars (pounding on windows. throwing clothes on cars). to herself or the situation (hands on hips). to the guy she has sex with (going back to her car after sex). also the emphasis on how ordinary she is contrasted with her very unordinary behavior. but we can't figure out what she's trying to communicate. are the horns that? is it the strange combination of mud and rain that combine through the woman?
um, we don't need it spelled out, and maybe we're just missing it, but maybe something to latch onto?
-cb
From: Father Ignatius
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 26 Feb 2002 03:30:07 -0800
"celia batau" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<952131851.25306@news3> ...
Isn't she wonderful?
She was "bush-happy." It's a well-known condition although, I guess, maybe not in urban California.
From: celia batau
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:43:04 -0800
hi Nat!
"Father Ignatius" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
hmm, no. :) prolly not in california. the only "bush-happy" we have is from too much marijuana. :)
-cb
celia batau's story site: http://www.myplanet.net/pinataheart/stories.htm.
Out of mind out of self.
-Arwen
From: Father Ignatius
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 00:27:26 +0200
"celia batau" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:952207048.807224@news3 ...
We have that, too, but it's not called "bush-happy" hereabouts, it's called "goofed."
That's a short "oo," ufcawce.
And I worry that the phrase "too much marijuana" may have a null semantic payload, all same "too much garlic."
"Father Ignatius" <[email protected]> http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Stories.html The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: Alexis Siefert
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 26 Feb 2002 08:16:44 GMT
Okay, I've been working on this for a day now. I don't want to repeat, so I won't - although I think that Urfe has some wonderful observations into the POV.
I had to decide if my first instincts WRT my response were in reaction to the "knuckle dusters" comments. I have a suspicion that Spin was, perhaps, challenging us to look past his turn of phrase and wonderful grasp of language to see that what he's done here is more show than substance.
'Monsoon' very much reminds me of one of the last times I was at the museum. There's a wonderful exhibit of 'Modern Art' that goes on display a couple of times each year. There are some marvelous pieces - stunningly beautiful use of form and line and material. Stark, simplistic, harsh without being painful. There are also some pieces in the collection that show what happens when an artist tried too hard, and didn't quite have the talent to back it up.
Had 'Monsoon' been done by almost anybody else, it would easily have fallen into the second group. As it stands, it's somewhere in between.
Now, a couple of positives first. Spin, you have a grasp of language and rhythm that is almost unmatched amongst erotic writers, but you already know this. I'm first struck by your word choices (lolloped) and your use of usual words in unusual/unexpected ways. Much like Selena's 'Curtains,' you've written someone real, not someone idealized. She's not beautiful or perfect, and she shouldn't be. This isn't Kathleen Turner sliding down the mud slide with whatshisname as they Romance the Stone. This is a woman who has been stuck in a car for way too long surrounded by way too much monotony. This helps the reader identify. And, it's a good thing.
Now, back to the 'modern art' thing. One of the best parts about going to the exhibit is watching everyone else look at, and discuss, the wire pieces spaced around the room. They all pretend to understand them, but what they're missing is that there quite often isn't anything to understand. You're just supposed to look at them and either like 'em or don't. The intent is make a statement, not to draw the observer into a world. My first impression of 'Monsoon' is that there is an attempt here to get that same shock-Art feel. It's the present tense thing, primarily. You've written a visual scene here, and it would work as a visual scene, but, imho, it doesn't work as a written piece.
The opening paragraphs are just as muddy as the river. We're all stuck in it - this is one of the good things about the story. We're slodging through it just like the trucks, and within a few sentences the reader feels the same desperation to just get out as the woman feels.
However, you stagger your sentence tone too much. You start with this neo-Indigenous sentence structure, limited articles and choppy transitions. Then you switch to smooth flowing and highly descriptive sentences, even though the story is still stuck waiting for the bridge to clear, and then you're right back to the choppy structure. This would be much more effective if it actually fit with the flow of the story.
There are some technical things that should be addressed, once the story flows correctly, but I think that those would work themselves out during a rewrite.
I don't often find myself disagreeing with Nat WRT to these stories, but I don't think this was " Audience-indulgent writing." The Real Thing, absolutely, but I believe that this was more writer-indulgent writing. And, as I said earlier, had it been done by anyone other than Spin (and perhaps a very small handful of other writers) it would come across as self-indulgent, pompous crap. However, Spin's got enough flash and mastery of phrase to make it appear as though he's appealing to our more intellectual side ('look at the hand over here, look at the hand, look at the hand, while I pull a rabbit out of your ear")..
Not a bad thing, I suppose, and that part of what he's done, he's done very well.
Alexis
Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing. - Clive James
ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/Alexis_S/ http://www.asstr.org/~Alexis_S/
From: Father Ignatius
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:16:37 +0200
"Alexis Siefert" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
Ouch. Fucking ouch. The unkindest baby-seal-clubbing of all.
[Jaw-hanging gape] What went before wasn't negatives? [Shakes head dazedly][Cups hands protectively over genitals][Crawls behind banquette and screams like a girl]
Wow. Fucking wow.
Post of the Week.
In your ear, Spin. Apparently.
Oi! Stasya! May I draw The Golden Peeler Committee's attention to the fact that Alexis appears to have worked through certain of her self-esteem issues? Thank you.
Eskimo Boy is dead. Long live Pissy Little Bitch. [Applause] You go, girl.
Nat(wading, gobsmacked but incredibly turned on, through blood)
"So, baby, do you come here often?"
"Father Ignatius" <[email protected]> http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Stories.html The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: Selena Jardine
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 26 Feb 2002 05:54:54 -0800
[email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...
Gee whiz. You know, Nicholas and Alexis and celia and Father Nat, I don't know what they used to say in your elementary school when someone was taking too long at the water fountain, but in mine they used to say, "Leave some for the ducks." How am I supposed to avoid repetition when you've said such wonderful things?
All right. This story reads like something Graham Greene or V.S. Naipaul or even Barbara Kingsolver wrote on far too much whiskey, re-read in the morning, and stuffed in a drawer, unable to discard it because it had such gorgeous promise, unable to publish it because it wasn't quite there. Other people have already done the theoretical bits (thanks a lot), so I'll get specific.
Positive: mud. The way you've set it up is a glory and a blessing to the reader. Every time we see that word, we stop, struck dead in our tracks, emotionally muted like the string of a piano. This, for instance, just as we're starting to get into the rhythm of the striptease: "She throws the wet bundle of her pants at a windscreen but her aim is not good and it bounces away and falls off a fender and into the mud." Mud again. Brick wall. Wonderful. (Also no commas, oh my word that's good.)
Negative: you sometimes work a little too hard at the jarring images. Sometimes they work perfectly - others have mentioned "mad as a cut snake," and I'll mention "flattening her breasts against the glass," - but at other times they should be a tiny bit better coordinated. Here, for instance: "She's not a young woman, nor yet old. She's just a woman of less than medium height, with unremarkable breasts, broad hips and backside, and strong, heavy thighs." If she's not young, nor yet old, then why is the next descriptor about her height? That jars, but in the wrong way. (If you took out "just," it might not, it has just now occurred to me.) And why "strong" thighs? You've set it up so that this woman's only characteristic of power is her madness, communicated through her eyes. I think her thighs could just be heavy. Same thing with her "fervour and passion," when she's fucking. Perhaps synonyms for madness would be better.
Positive: the horns. Bip, bip, blare. For the woman? The disappointment of not having gotten to see what must have happened in the car? The frustration of being stuck by the bridge? It's utterly ambiguous and completely right. I had the sense of having read it before that I only get when something fits perfectly.
Negative: don't let us see into her husband's (? boyfriend's?) mind. ("He's had way too much of her in two days.") I do not wish to trespass upon Nicholas's POV ground here, because he said it so breathlessly, so impenetrably, and so well, but again, it jars in the wrong way. We cannot see into the mind of the mad, and we cannot see into the mud, and we cannot see into the mind of the utterly selfish gap-toothed man. Don't spoil it by giving us someone peripheral to see into.
Thank you, Doctor.
Selena
[email protected]
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:38:01 -0600
On 25 Feb 2002 15:23:13 GMT, [email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote:
First, negatives: The sex scene is OK but mechanical. Maybe that is intentional, less passion involved perhaps than a good masturbation session, but neither man nor woman seem to get into it that much. Yes, she moves with passion, the narrator says, but something is missing there for me. Maybe it is just a hint of her internal feelings, desires, something to make it feel more intimate?
Not sure if that is really a negative, if the narrative isn't intended to be blazingly hot.
Where did her shoes go? OK, I don't want to count that as a big negative, I just wondered. I figure she was barefoot in the car, otherwise, she took them off or lost them in the mud. Not a big thing, hard for me to find a *big*negative about this story. Just a general sign, the tale is about short snippets of imagery, but in a sex story I'd like a bit more imagery about the main characters. The stuff there is OK, though the woman is described a bit ambiguously - intentionally I'd guess, making her seem "average" and therefore ordinary.
The scene setting with little "sound bite" sentences makes the muddy raining road come alive. We get drug into the mud with the people in the cars, and the entertainment of a woman showing off for us - I don't know which, if any, of the other car occupants we might be, nor does it matter - is amazing in contrast.
The ending is so smooth, too. The interlude, running around naked in the rain, then getting in a car and fucking a man she doesn't know, merely is a break for all, even her man. He says nothing at the end, just goes on waiting, as if her outburst were as natural as the monsoon itself.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Alexis Siefert
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 27 Feb 2002 05:24:58 GMT
Now they just pretty much say, "Ms. S?!?!? He's hogging all the water! Ms. S!!!! Make him stop! Ms. S! You have to do the drink count!" However, tomorrow I'm introducing "leave some for the ducks." Thanks.
Alexis.
Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing. - Clive James
ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/Alexis_S/ http://www.asstr.org/~Alexis_S/
From: Ray
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:47:45 -0500
"Desdmona22" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
Again, this will be a difficult story to avoid repetition on.
Two things to improve: (Since these are fresh in my mind)
1) As it stands the story has a rather major adverb and conjunction problem. There are many places where 'the' should have been but wasn't, and almost an equal number where it was used but shouldn't have been .... (i.e.) Last line paragraph three would have read better with the addition "After two days 'the' mud stinks like 'a' rotting animal. Second line, next paragraph would read better without it .... "Relentless rain weighs down shoulders, hunches bodies, turns talk (conversations?) inwards.
2) There are places where the wording or word tensing choices interrupt the flow of the story ... "She's shouting at each of the cars as she passes by. The rain has got heavier and she's not making sense." The second line here needs restructuring, something more like "The rain has gotten ..." or "The rain 'got' heavier, her words make no sense." (yep, I reworded more) Later: "She gets into the car and closes the door" instead of 'and closes' use 'closing' - says the same thing ... towards the end of the story, you seem to over use 'and'.
Two Positive comments:
1) Though some may not feel so, I like that there is no reason or 'at fault' ascribed to the fight. You don't know if she wanted some and he said no, or he wanted some and she said no, or over his forgetfulness or her housekeeping or whatever. Just as there is no reason given for the sex with the stranger .... whether it is to satisfy her need or to hurt her man .... it simply is.
2) The choice of scenes was good as well, in it's uniqueness ... stranded motorists, driving unending rain, frayed tempers, emotional stress, base despondency, all brought on by an unending cacophony of wet, of mud, and (though it's not specifically mentioned) the ceaseless drumming of falling drops on metal roofs, unchanging except in it's intensity.
It's got the makings of a good one, though in this incarnation it all seems a bit rote and mechanical, not quite reaching magic, but coming very close.
Ray
From: oosh
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:21:19 GMT
"Ray" <ray1031@ cac.net> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
Just a remark about "gotten". For some strange reason, "gotten" seems to have disappeared from British English, I think early in the C19. We would say "the rain has got heavier," and this may be true in Australia also. As far as I know, only the USA retains the original participle.
There are quite a few of these dialectal differences in English!
Some of them work the other way, too. The USA has invented some strange past tense forms. I find "dove" (meaning "dived") extremely bizarre; also "fit" as the past tense (we'd say "her dress fitted comfortably"); and "drug" for "dragged"; and "spit" for "spat" - all of which I've seen recently.
O.
From: Alexis Siefert
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 28 Feb 2002 04:36:54 GMT
<snip>
<sigh>
<deeper sigh>
<sad sigh, accompanied by a morose shake of the head>
Much of it comes down to formal use vs. informal use. "Dove" is most often acceptable as an informal usage. So, I suspect that you'd be more likely to see it 'properly' used in dialogue rather than in narrative prose (unless, of course, the writer was attempting to convey an especially informal or dialectical sense in the narrative. But that's another topic.)
"Spat" is still considered (in American English) to be the correct past tense and past participal of spit.
<grumble> I debate even getting started on "drug vs. dragged." Okay, I'll start. There IS no "drug" vs. "dragged" problem. "Drug" is NOT the past tense or the past participal of "drag." "Drug" has been used, usually facetiously, since about 1960 as the past tense and past participal of drag in the sense that something was boring or annoying ("The lecture drug on for hours."). Please note that I did not suggest that it was properly used in this manner. Dragged is still considered THE standard past tense and past participal of 'drag.' Even in America.
I think what we're seeing is that writers are writing the way they speak. Which is fine for dialogue and dialect. When conveying the spoken word, we WANT it to 'sound right.' Unfortunately, this tendency has dribbled over to all writing.
Alexis.
Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing. - Clive James
ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/Alexis_S/ http://www.asstr.org/~Alexis_S/
From: oosh
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 04:55:55 GMT
[email protected] (Alexis Siefert) wrote in news:[email protected]:
I admire your pugnacious attitude! Unfortunately, once these abuses have gone on for 200 years or so, you just can't do anything about them. Once, it was better to say "the rain has gotten heavier". Now, some quirky-minded people say "the rain has got heavier". It's a tricky problem, I've got to admit.
O.
From: Alexis Siefert
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 28 Feb 2002 06:02:52 GMT
Hey, as long as they're standing out there, I'll keep chasing them down.
Ain't will NEVER be allowed, nor will double negatives. At least not from my charges.
And, it's "one hundred," not "a hundred."
Alexis
Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing. - Clive James
ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/Alexis_S/ http://www.asstr.org/~Alexis_S/
From: Rev. Cotton Mather
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:39:24 GMT
On 28 Feb 2002 06:02:52 GMT, [email protected] (Alexis Siefert) wrote:
I seem to recall, back in the misty recesses of my past, that when I was in about third or fourth grade, I couldn't decide if "himself" or "hisself" was the proper usage, so, as an experiment (and as a child who did not tend to ask questions), I used both terms interchangeably in a school paper. IIRC, that particular question was not resolved by that particular teacher.
RCM
Reverend Cotton Mather
Senior Pastor,
Church of the Erotic Redemption
http://www.asstr.org/~ReverendCottonMather http://www.storiesonline.net
*Something clever is supposed to go here, I think*
From: Selena Jardine
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 28 Feb 2002 06:01:35 -0800
[email protected] (Alexis Siefert) wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...
You mean, if you've told us once, you've told us one hundred times?
Hmmm.
I ain't buyin' that one, little lady.
Selena
[email protected]
From: Alexis Siefert
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 28 Feb 2002 15:47:52 GMT
You're right, and since you seem like basically a nice person, I'll let you call me on it, and I won't exercise my new PLB muscles getting all defensive :-)
I teach primary school, and we've just passed the 100th day of school. Pet peeve of mine is to hear parents count with kids and get to ninety-nine, a hundred. It messes with their number sense.
There isn't a number "a hundred." There is a number "one hundred." There is an expression "a hundred" (as in the example you used above).
Alexis.
Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing. - Clive James
ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/Alexis_S/ http://www.asstr.org/~Alexis_S/
From: Selena Jardine
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:24:42 GMT
Alexis Siefert wrote:
I will now write one hundred times, "Alexis is 'most usually always right."
Licking my pencil and beginning, I remain
Your most humble correspondent
Selena
[email protected]
From: dennyw
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:23:12 -0800
On 28 Feb 2002 15:47:52 GMT, [email protected] (Alexis Siefert) held forth, saying:
<editor>
'an hundred'
</editor>
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: Selena Jardine
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:01:18 GMT
[email protected] wrote:
Denny ... do even you say, "If I've told you once, I've told you an hundred times"? Or is this just the equivalent of sending me to look for a left-handed screwdriver?
Selena
snipe hunt!
[email protected]
From: Vinnie Tesla
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:14:40 GMT
On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:23:12 -0800, quoth the [email protected]:
Eeew! Eew eew eew! Yuck. Would you prefer an hamburger or an hotdog for lunch today, Mr. 'Iggins?
-Vinnie
[email protected]
http://www.asstr.org/~vinnie_tesla/
He polishes birds of the Vista
From: Conjugate
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:14:53 -0500
Vinnie Tesla <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
"An historical monument." For some reason, the "h" counts as a vowel amongst those from abroad.
Conjugate
From: oosh
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 13:42:53 GMT
"Conjugate" <[email protected]> wrote in news:u7togi1hb9rs34 @corp.supernews.com:
It seems to be an obscure throwback to French, in which language some words beginning with "h" are said to be "aspirated", and some are not. So, "l'hotel", "l'histoire" but 'le h�ros'. Hence, in frenchified English, "an hotel", "an historic", but "a heroic" (and certainly "a hundred" - "hundred" doesn't come from French).
I have heard some would-be pedants say "an historic" out loud - and pronounce the "h" as well. This seems to me both ugly and ridiculous. If you're going to elide in the French style, you should drop the "h".
But personally I see no reason to visit English with these weird historical inconsistencies.
O.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:17:28 -0600
On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:23:12 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
Not in American, last I checked. It is a hundred, just like it is a hotel, a house, etc.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: oosh
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 01:16:03 GMT
Jeff Zephyr <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
Not in English. A hundred, a house, an hotel.
O.
From: Alexis Siefert
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 01 Mar 2002 02:18:14 GMT
It's a rare day that I disagree with Denny on such a point, but when the "h" is pronounced, it's "a." The purpose for adding an "n" to make "an" is for easy in pronounciation. When there is the spoken "h," the need for the "n" is gone.
Alexis.
Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing. - Clive James
ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/Alexis_S/ http://www.asstr.org/~Alexis_S/
From: oosh
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 13:43:43 GMT
[email protected] (Alexis Siefert) wrote in news:[email protected]:
Habsolutely.
O.
From: oosh
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 01:13:49 GMT
[email protected] (Alexis Siefert) wrote in news:[email protected]:
I suppose "a hundred" is like "a couple of ..." - ways of counting, rather than numbers. Numbers are like "one," "two" and "novocaine".
O.
From: Conjugate
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:12:28 -0500
Alexis Siefert <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
That's right. If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times: No Articles In Front Of Numbers. :-)
Conjugate
I've got a million of 'em. :-)
From: Alexis Siefert
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 28 Feb 2002 06:03:52 GMT
< ...>
You are the first person to ever refer to me as being 'pugnacious.' I like it.
Alexis.
Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing. - Clive James
ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/Alexis_S/ http://www.asstr.org/~Alexis_S/
From: dennyw
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:14:59 -0800
On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 00:27:26 +0200, "Father Ignatius" <[email protected]> held forth, saying:
Too much maryjane is when one's had enough to make one barf. (yes, BTDT, washed the t-shirt)
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: celia batau
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 19:56:04 -0800
hi denny!
<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
yay denny! yay!
but who needs the illegal stuff when the doctors are so happy to give us the heavy duty stuff? :) makes us more manageable too. :) we did one time puke up our meds, but that was on purpose and we were on a locked ward anyway. we were just angry. :(
anyway, was the t-shirt tye-dye? ;)
yay denny! yay!
-cb
celia batau's story site: http://www.myplanet.net/pinataheart/stories.htm.
So it is in
my silence
that I have become
who I am,
and no one even
has an idea
of this monster
hidden behind
the blade.
-Megan
From: dennyw
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 01:30:50 -0800
On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 19:56:04 -0800, "celia batau" <[email protected]> held forth, saying:
Sadly, no.
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 17:27:32 -0600
On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 19:56:04 -0800, "celia batau" <[email protected]> wrote:
Barf? How can you manage that? I mean, even if you eat it that shouldn't happen :-) Not with good stuff anyway.
It's illegal? I thought you just went out to the corn field and picked it. How can that possibly illegal? It just grows there, free for anyone to collect :-)
Hmm, the wrong meds could do that too. Good ones shouldn't mess you up that way. Other ways, but puking it up is a bad side effect. isn't it?
I had a few of them. No more. Maybe I should teach the kids how to make the things, before the art is lost forever - or they think you can only get them at the mall /-)
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Jacques LeBlanc
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 1 Mar 2002 02:46:40 -0800
[email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...
I thought it was the point where you say, "Dude, I'd like, smoke another joint, but I'm just too stoned to roll one!" Later, Jacques (who doesn't actually use the stuff - when I want to alter my mind, I read science fiction)
"I smoke two joints in the morning; I smoke two joints at night. I smoke two joints in the afternoon; it makes me feel alright. I smoke two joints in time of peace, and two in time of war. I smoke two joints before I smoke two joints, and then I smoke two more! Smoke two joints!" - - -Bob Marley, who may have meant it literally
From: Sagittaria
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 03:21:27 -0000
Was hard to get into, but turned out to be a fascinating read.
Positives:
1- The staccato sentences made it feel like we were really hearing someone's thoughts, rather than reading an expository narrative.
2- Revelation or understanding builds as you read the story (at least it did for me). Sometimes that's more interesting than laying it all out at the beginning.
Negatives:
1- you knew this was coming - the staccato voice again. That's part of what made it hard to get into the story at first. "River? Rain? Mud? This doesn't sound like sex."
2- It's hard to get a good understanding of exactly what's going on in the story. I'm a very simple person (or as Nicholas said, greedy). I want to know more. fex, What's the woman's purpose? Why is she banging on car windows? Is she just looking for sex? Companionship? A fight?
And, a Question For The Author [TM]: Is this meant to be a realistic scenario? I suppose there are places where rain stops traffic for days, but are there cars in those places? Are the people in those cars white? Is there nowhere the cars can return to, so that they must wait by the bridge? These are serious questions, spurred mostly by my profound ignorance. :) Whether the scenario is realistic or not, I don't mean to imply that it would detract from the story at all.
- - >Sagittaria< - -
I could never be a Democrat, because I like to spend the money I earn myself. But I could never be a Republican, because I like to spend it on drugs and whores. -Jim David
From: Desdmona
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 02 Mar 2002 05:45:48 GMT
Monsoon
by DrSpin
Spin~
I had a conversation with another writer a while back about getting a story on the first read. I don't think we can read or watch, for that matter, any story and not find more on the second or third read than we did on the first. So maybe our goal should be to write a story that makes someone want to read it again. I wanted to read this story again.
The things I like about it include the poetic flow, the lovely imagery, and the use of the word, queue. Others have already addressed the imagery, so I'll skip over it, and just say it was done masterfully.
I enjoyed the flow. The short choppy sentences &/or fragments followed by lengthier, more involved sentences remind me of rain itself. Days of rain here in the American Midwest have short periods of torrential downpour where you can't see anything - everything is muddled, and then periods where the rain goes on and on without stopping, but you can still see clearly. The way it's done in the very first paragraph - confusion that's explained quickly in the following paragraphs. Beyond that, there's a real sense of poetry in the way the story reads. I happen to love poetry.
When I was young I'd sit for hours and play "Scrabble" with my grandmother. It took hours because she would labor over each and every word. Somehow she would always end up with the "Q" and queue happened to be her favorite word to spell. It's not a commonly used word here in the states, but when I see it in print it brings back fond memories. (I know, I know this information does nothing to help the author.)
The things I'd like to see improved in this story: first, "wet white clothes." A couple of paragraphs later even her bra is gray, so why are her clothes white? Is it because the image of wet white means transparent? It's not necessary, and I like it even less because when she's nude her skin is "pasty white." If the idea is transparency then try gauzy or just leave out the description altogether.
Secondly,
"She clenches her hands into fists and puts them on her hips, stands rebelliously with legs apart, bare feet stuck in mud."
The phrasing of this made me stop every time I read it. Is it just me or would it read better as, "She clenches her hands into fists, puts them on her hips, and stands rebelliously with legs apart, bare feet stuck in mud"?
And,
"She stops, lifts her face to the sky as the rain becomes torrential. Her eyes are closed. She gets to the back of the queue, and as she retraces her steps she starts taking off her clothes."
Does she get to the back of the queue with her face to the sky and eyes closed? It sort of had me imagining her groping along blindly.
And finally, I'm wondering if you need this paragraph,
"She looks at him. He has ratty hair and awful teeth. He looks rough and mean, a man of few manners and little education, a man accustomed to doing it tough and doing it alone."
Since we've already learned about his ratty hair and awful teeth prior to the sex, there's no reason to include it again, but more importantly this paragraph tells us his motivation. We don't know the motivation of the woman or her husband. I think I'd like it better if the same vagueness was applied to this man in the car.
At first I wondered why the people in the cars would be so blas� about the whole thing, but I thought about and decided if I were caught in rain for 2 days without relief, I can imagine I'd either be antsy like the woman or I'd be blank like the people.
Thanks Spin for giving us this chance. It's a great story!
Des
From: Leowulf
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 06:27:25 -0000
Here is my response to this story, aside from the wet milieu being so appropriate for a "Fish Tank" story. <g> The easiest improvement thing to spot is quite minor: The lady is wearing either a skirt and pants but no undies, or she is wearing a skirt and misspelled panties. Of course, that could be a positive - a spelling error is easy to jump on. :)
The other is just a feeling of improbability to the whole thing. On the surface, it could be Borneo or Papua New Guinea or some such, perhaps a British holding in the third world, during the post-war years when cars were plentiful in Britain's rapidly dwindling colonies but reliable communication and weather forcasting was not. That would explain six cars stranded at a bridge in a monsoon.
But if I heard of what properly could be called a natural disaster in the making, I wouldn't be out and travelling cross-country unless I had no choice. It would be interesting to find out why these people are there, and how they will survive. Will their cars still function after such an inundation? Will they be mired to the axle? Do the motorists have the benefit of food? I'm assuming that water is no problem (could they collect rain water?) and toilets are not an issue?
On a positive note:
"She batters her way to a sun-burst climax ..."
What a beautiful counterpoint to the dismal rainy weather - most well done! Also putting the story in present tense makes the reader feel the setting more than reading a past-tense account.
But what I enjoyed most was what I saw as the Hemingway style of this work. I can't really expand on that, or really put it in better words. I haven't even read much Hemingway. But the gritty, real-world imagery, the ... the style is so good. Like painting with words. I didn't like the look of all I read. But the whole picture presented was very compelling.
Leo W. Ulf
post scriptum
Oh dear! I seem to have forgotten my knuckle dusters! Well even amateur writers can improvise when needed ...
-poof!-
A lady materialises out of thin air. She is tall - about 2 metres - and dressed in a black leather corset, black knee-high boots, and black evening gloves. Her blond hair hangs in a thick braid. In her hand is a thickly braided whip. She sits daintily in a high-backed wooden chair, smiles at the good doctor and says:
"Vell, herr Schpin, ve meet again. If you vill kindly kneel across my lap, ve can discuss ze many errors of your schtory ..."
<weg>
From: Alexis Siefert
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 02 Mar 2002 06:46:56 GMT
<snip>
<snipping practical considerations of being stuck somewhere>
Not to be persnickety (who, me?), but there are many areas in the developed world in which this type of situation could be highly probable. I've been stuck, unexpectedly, for long periods of time - once overnight - on a highway, a real, honest-to-goodness highway. It was due (that time) to a fatal traffic accident somewhere between Seward and Anchorage. No way to get traffic in or out. Mountain on one side, ocean on the other. Sorry, folks. Traffic is backed up for miles and miles and miles, I'd suggest you get to know your car-neighbor. Anything you've got extras of, let someone know 'cause someone probably needs it. So we did. Someone pulled out a hibachi and someone else pulled salmon out of the cooler. I threw in a trout and a gallon of lemonade and cookies. Someone else had the music, and when night came we all offered up extra sleeping bags and blankets for those people who didn't want to get cold.
I've also been stuck for hours (up to 8, iirc) due to an unexpectedly heavy and sudden snowfall which caused an avalance and blocked off a part of a different highway.
There have been mudslides along the Seward Highway between Anchorage and Girdwood that have blocked traffic (and thereby cutting off the entire Kenai Peninnsula from the rest of the state) for days. Unexpected and unavoidable.
Checking my car this evening, I find that I've still got three days worth of water, food, books, a change of clothes, my Sorels, a radio, a deck of cards, and a blanket. All boxed up nice and neatly behind the back seat. Anyone up here who travels differently is asking for problems and is looked upon with extreme distain after they've been rescued from frostbite, starvation, or mud-flat drowning (which is another story entirely).
I found the mud-washed bridge and mired cars to be completely believable. Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing. - Clive James
ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/Alexis_S/ http://www.asstr.org/~Alexis_S/
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 11:49:13 -0600
On Sat, 02 Mar 2002 06:27:25 -0000, Leowulf <[email protected]> wrote:
Pants = underwear, panties. Or knickers, and possibly other words depending on locale. In Oz, they are pants - or at least, I've heard it used that way. They have "funny" words for other things too. :-)
Any place where a monsoon could hit, away from a big city, seems like a reasonable possibility to me. Australia seems like it has lots of places where it would be possible.
People get caught by such surprises a lot. Weather prediction doesn't always let people know when the rains will be so intense - and for some areas, it always rains a lot.
Other things, I don't know. Water should be collectable, maybe they have some food in the cars.
In the USA, flooding definitely can affect traffic. People can be stranded, though we tend to have air (helicopters primarily) to help people get rescued. But bad storms can make such things difficult or impossible. Mudslides can close roads. Winter weather also does that, but people tend to plan better for such problems. A sudden flooding rainstorm is harder to predict.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: dennyw
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 21:50:43 -0800
On Sat, 02 Mar 2002 11:49:13 -0600, Jeff Zephyr <[email protected]> held forth, saying:
For example, the north coast of that island continent, which is blessed with the same tropical climate as Borneo or New Guinea. The hot and rainy season, and the hot and monsoon season. (or something like that)
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: Always Horny
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 12:44:46 +0100
Heya Spin
this present tense choice of yours is really hard on the reader. I can't do the usual commentary because I could never get into this story. The harsh present tense, and the IMO-overdone sordid side kept throwing me out.
Just one clause which feels like a no-no to me:
This "she's just" feels really nasty.
AH
A_H_01 at hotmail. com
From: DrSpin
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 3 Mar 2002 04:55:21 -0800
In article <[email protected]>, Always Horny said ...
That mournful sound you heard a little while ago, AH, was the ship leaving the dock and heading for the horizon. You were a day late for the farewell party. Bad luck. People laughed and cried, as usual, and a few lies were told.
What's that over there floating in the water? Two roses, once part of a glorious bouquet. And there is the pink ribbon that bound it.
Ah well. There's always next time.
DrSpin
* also at [email protected] and at http://www.ruthiesclub.com
From: Father Ignatius
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 17:58:20 +0200
"Leowulf" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
[ ...]
Foreign-ness, maybe. Improbability, no.
Or most of Africa, Asia or South America. Since the author is an Australian, I took it for Australia, part of which lies in the monsoon belt.
Why British, especially, I wonder?
I keep reading this and my brow keeps wrinkling. Major worldview dichotomy here.
Well, I've seen similar occurrences in Africa (not in monsoon territory) happening routinely when the dry season ends. They are regarded as being part of life. In weather forecasting terms the tough thing is predicting not that there'll be rain but how much there will be. It's also difficult to predict how much flooding will occur because the first rains are swallowed whole by the parched earth. Figuring out if there will be a surplus and, if so, when it will begin to run off and, if it does, how much flooding will result is hydrology and not meteorology and it's basically a crap-shoot. In the meantime, life goes on and people move about because they have to.
The novel "In the Wet," by Nevil Shute describes what it's like living in areas affected by such weather.
Monsoons are not natural disasters, BTW. They are parts of the annual cycle.
[ ...]
"Father Ignatius" <[email protected]> http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Stories.html The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: Leowulf
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 21:21:48 -0000
"Father Ignatius" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
Yes, foreignness works, but also improbability, from my myopic (been wearing glasses since I was a child) Americocentric perspective. I've driven across the continental U.S. several times, and was stopped at a bridge only once, when the Red River flooded parts of North Dakota and Minnesota. It was on the news for about a week before hand, as the U.S. watched from their living rooms, the rains fell over the northern plains, the flatlanders got out the sandbags to save their farms, and my family prepared to move from Tennessee to Idaho.
monsoon ... belt? Do they sell those at Sears? Sorry, I'm a product of the American public school system. <g>
His expressions and spelling were so British I could taste the tea and crumpets.
It also fit with my view of people in motorcars in a monsoon. Only British colonials would have ignored the signs that Mother Gaia surely gave that the Monsoon would be blowing in from sea (kidding), like only the Virginians would settle their colony in a swamp and start out by trying to grow cash crops rather than real food. :)
Hmmm ... I bet I can get more ethnocentric if I tried ...
Surely the motorists wouldn't have been indigenous people - the locals would have been huddled in reed huts with their oxen, eating stockpiled rice and telling stories around cunningly built fires. <g>
The closest we get to your monsoon is the Hurricaine season in the gulf coast, or maybe the blizzard season in the Rockies and Great Plains. Usually people have a couple of days warning before things really get going.
Sounds like it makes sense, but then again, you could have told me that dry-to-rainy season flash floods were caused by elves and I would not have been able to prove you wrong. It does sound like you have a common core of experience with Dr S that made the setting work well for you.
Is Shute Australian? I remember that On the Beach was also set in Australia.
No, no. I meant the American view of any force of nature that can inconvenience or harm people or property as a natural disaster. <g>
Leo the Wulf
From: oosh
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 03:14:28 GMT
Leowulf <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
How would you like to be told that you were a British colonial, I wonder?
I think it's time you paid Australia a visit. I'm sure they will be able to explain everything to you.
O.
From: Leowulf
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 05:23:13 -0000
oosh <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
It would be interesting to imagine this story with French (I don't know off hand when or where - maybe Indochina cir 1948?) or Spanish characters (Maybe in South America or the Phillipines?) ... how would it have been described the same or differently?
Oh, but we were. That's why I included the Virginia colony example (I'm originally a Virginian). Of course, the Crown colonies here in the New World (the Carolinas and Georgia, I think) were not necessarily settled by volunteers, and I'm sure the original settlers of Australia were not all volunteers either, but both settings I believe qualified as colonies of the British empire. Of course, a few decades or centuries ago, both the U.S. and Australia became our own little independent countries, and so people of neither locale are properly called colonials today.
But it was easy to see the setting of this short story as a land that is still "only" a colony of the Empire, perhaps still only sparsely populated by "civilized" people. Perhaps the muddy, unpaved roads are better suited to indigenous elephants or oxen, and the natives point and jabber in some primitive dialect when a motorcar passes. It's easy to imagine a Hemingway-esque figure on one of his many travels, now that the War is over and travel is easier, stuck at a river in the middle of such a place, glad to have brought along a bottle of spirits, wiling away the time by writing notes to himself about the goings-on.
Or perhaps it's set in a modern Australia, a nice, civilized independent nation, where such events as sudden bridge wash-outs are nevertheless not uncommon. Having no information on the setting beyond what the good Doctor provided in his story, the reader must rely only upon his experience and imagination to place the story properly.
It's also possible, after all, for these to be colonists on a wet, muddy world orbiting a far distant sun, for all the information provided in the tale. :) The reader may assume otherwise, but only because of his world- view and expectations. If I were to read of a pilot chash-landing in a swamp and being "helped" by an irritating local who speaks oddly, I might picture a barnstormer and a Cajun in Depression-era Louisiana as readily as I would Luke Skywalker meeting Yoda in the Degoba system.
It does occur to me from your choice of words that you may have either taken offense to the term British colonial or see the possibility of another doing so; this possibility presents an opportunity for a Leonine apology, which is hereby provided.
I'd love to have the money to go to Australia!
Leo
From: Nicholas Urfe
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 3 Mar 2002 21:49:54 -0800
[email protected] (Father Ignatius) wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...
I don't know about the rest of you (oosh), but I, myself, am ASTONISHED: six days and countless stoner jokes and NO ONE, not ONE of you, leaps to the immediate joke. - On a sex story discussion board, no less.
I weep for the decadent youth of today.
Best,
- n.
"Muff. The private parts of a woman. To the well wearing of your muff, mort; to the happy consummation of your marriage, girl; a health."
wear it well indeed:
http://www.asstr.org/~nickurfe/ift/
http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: oosh
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 00:21:52 GMT
[email protected] (Nicholas Urfe) wrote in news:[email protected]:
Well, the rest of me would be really grateful to have the word "stoner" explained. Sorry to be so crass!
I'm still too busy weeping for the decadent youth of yesterday! (People, she was beautiful.)
O.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 20:00:40 -0600
On Tue, 05 Mar 2002 00:21:52 GMT, oosh <[email protected]> wrote:
Stoner is pretty easy. It is someone who gets stoned. That is, stoned on drugs, pot being the preferred favorite.
The youth of today lacks the really good forms of decadence we had in the past. They get some new ones - the Internet is just great for finding new ideas and stuff - but it just isn't quite the same. Ignorance has its advantages.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Conjugate
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 21:57:35 -0500
oosh <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
Okay, okay. "Bush crazy: Gee, that would describe quite a few of us, wouldn't it? Smirk, smirk, wink wink, nudge nudge." There ya go.
"Stoner" refers (especially in high school or college) to one who uses recreational drugs with sufficient enthusiasm as to be clearly under their influence much of the day. AKA pothead, druggy.
See, in many high schools, there are cliques formed based on broad personality types. There are the athletes (Jocks), the stoners, the geeks, and a few other groups that may vary based on region and/or culture. For instance, many people who identify themselves with their love of music might not fall into any of those categories.
Yeah, I know. One of the sad aspects of being socially backward is the memory of all the girls in high school that I believe in retrospect I could have had sex with, but didn't understand what was going on at the time. Sigh.
Conjugate
From: Selena Jardine
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 03:04:35 GMT
Conjugate wrote:
<snip>
What is this? James Dean cocksure (ahem, pardon) hindsight, or massive present-day humility, or the reverse, or both?
My head hurts.
Selena
[email protected]
From: dennyw
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 17:50:55 -0800
On 3 Mar 2002 21:49:54 -0800, [email protected] (Nicholas Urfe) held forth, saying:
Far TOO obvious.
<editor>
'decadent' <add the single-quotes, that is> </editor>
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 20:28:47 -0600
On 3 Mar 2002 21:49:54 -0800, [email protected] (Nicholas Urfe) wrote:
Enamored of the President of the USA? OK, that may not happen in urban California, but it probably comes up somewhere.
Hot for Gavin and the rest of the band? Last I heard, Gavin was stuck tight to sweet Gwen from No Doubt, and though that fact is lamentable for those male fans hoping for a personal miracle, I can see this coming up in California.
Same goes for those hot for Kate Bush, hoping to turn into nice Bush-happy groupies. She's taken by Del.
OK, maybe she is the sort of girl who goes for girls with copious body hair on certain locations. But last I checked, in California shaving, or at least trimming, was pretty popular. So it is possible that they wouldn't be familiar with that particular situation there.
I think they can find new fun decadent things to do. As well as finding new ways to do the old stuff, or do the same thing and call it new.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: DrSpin
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 2 Mar 2002 18:16:27 -0800
My sincere thanks to all who participated. My turn in the bowl was most interesting and enjoyable.
"Monsoon" was a departure for me. I have not previously written a story in present tense and I am unlikely to do so in the near future. It was a brief writing exercise, brought on by two months of writing a big bunch of stuff for another place. Much of that stuff was formulaic, and "Monsoon" was like taking a little holiday from myself.
I planned to do a whole series of short stories in markedly different styles, each based on a colour, with no real idea about posting them anywhere. Typically I stopped at one. The point is, however, I really wrote the story for me.
Personally, I thought the story didn't quite work.
But enough of the caveat thing. Let's discuss.
Please Cain:
Clever old Cain to pick that out. I started the whole exercise with only the word "caramel" in my head, and built the story around it.
Pretty much my bedded-down style. If you can get a reader to be thinking "WTF is gonna happen here?", then I think that adds to entertainment value, at least.
More on this anon. See Alexis and Nicholas Urfe sections.
Don't wanna. For one thing, I've long moved on to other stories. I hate going back.
If anything, I might have overdone the explanations, and that's what got me into some POV problems. More on this, too, anon. See Urfe and celia sections.
Absolutely bang on. This is what can happen when you upgrade words and phrases after you've written the thing. The upgrades may be nice, but along the way you can forget the context and lose flow and clarity. Agreed and applied.
Nice work, Cain.
Father Ignatius:
You didn't. You ran second again. Story of your life, really.
Writer-indulgent, rather. See Alexis section.
"Monsoon" in fact was an adverse reaction to a surfeit of Ace Dyson stories. After many thousands of smart-arse words I needed a holiday.
<Gasp! He dares!> My lecture on "coy" is available on request.
Nicholas Urfe:
Yes.
But be very careful. Don't make a habit of it, dear. Writing in the present tense is perilously close to living in a town called Wankersville. I reckon. "Artist at work" sort of stuff.
I dropped "Monsoon" in the Tank blithely, and then I realised with an uncomfortable lurch when I saw it there that it could so easily be printed in the Wankersville Gazette.
Urfe will not take this unkindly. Of all the writers here, he can get away with it most. I cannot even begin to contemplate writing like the splashy Urfe. <Whew. I think I'm relaxed and relieved about that.>
In other settings and other stories, I am a dialogue writer. In this one I was not. It would be a difficult mix-'n-match, Nick. Maybe a line or two. Maybe. As a spoken comment, perhaps. An observation, exclamation. Possibly.
Agreed. I was aware of it, too, and tried to get it right. But failed.
. He has dark growth of beard on his face. He is . wiry and weather-hardened, a man of remote distance. He . snarls with pleasure, and he has a missing front tooth.
Yep. Agreed. Your way is much better.
Jesus, Nick, you are exhausting.
celia:
True. But you gotta work, celia. That's a good thing.
Very good point. If the story goes anywhere, I promise to fix that and a whole bunch of things in the same vein. celia is absolutely right. The POV is muddled.
All celias must work to solve this puzzle.
Tsk tsk. Which celia read this story? Whichever one it was, she was not working hard enough. You should speak to her. I remember a celia story about a road accident, blue lights, and half- recalled fragments that made me work really, really hard, which was why I liked it so much.
Alexis:
Always trust your first instincts. But I was not doing it as arrogantly or deliberately as that. See opening comments.
Acute. See "Wankersville" comments earlier.
Inclined to agree.
One hundred or so (note use of number, Alexis!) stories written has made me much more smooth than I used to be. The choppy stuff was experimental. I agree I slipped back into my standard style inappropriately.
more writer-indulgent writing.
Guilty as charged. Explained in introductory comments.
Conjurer's tricks. Beware of Flash Rat writers.
Good spotting, Alexis. I almost got away with it.
Selena:
Agreed. Much better. One word deleted and it improves leaps and bounds.
Also agreed. That POV problem I mentioned in the celia section. It shall be fixed.
Jeff Zephyr:
It was intentional. If anything, I didn't de- humanise it enough. The whole point of the sex scene is that it makes no logical sense. External forces at work.
I say somewhere she was barefooted. You don't wear shoes in a monsoon. You'll only wear them once if you do.
That's a good summary of the story. Thank you, Jeff.
Ray:
Sorry, Ray. Disagree. I usually place such things with considerable care. In other words, that is what I intended. I like to use words slightly out of place, pull a few stunts, light a couple of spot fires. See "conjurer's tricks" in Alexis section.
Much prefer it without the 'the' and the 'a'. Read it aloud. Tell me if you change your mind.
Ah. The American love affair with the peculiarly ugly word "gotten" (addressed nicely by oosh in a sidetrack). I've even had trouble with Ruthie over it.
No, it's not mentioned, and it probably should be. I'm underboard on sound effects, and it is the sort of story where that could work very well. Agreed, Ray. Drumming drops should go in.
Conjugate:
A Fish Tank problem, I think. You see all the posts and you think it's all about you and your story. Then you discover it's a bunch of people flirting. Very frustrating.
Sagittaria:
Certainly my intention.
True. I know other writers here have had this problem, but sometimes I forget I'm writing a sex story. I get immersed in the story-telling, and I have to keep telling myself I have a primary focus. Then again, I've never claimed any status as a stroke writer.
Yes, it was a bit of a tease, Saggy. Sometimes I like to leave options open to the reader for interpretation. It doesn't always work, either.
Oh yes, entirely realistic. I live in tropical northern Australia, Saggy. The rivers rise by up to 20 metres in the wet season. Out there in the bush, you're bloody stranded, and you can be cut off for up to two weeks. Food supplies are winched across rivers or dropped in by chopper. Not sure about the sex, but many stories of people getting blind drunk for days at a time. All sorts of travellers get caught, including tourists and backpackers. We're talking big, wide-open spaces here with hundreds of kilometres between towns.
Desdmona:
I am uneasy about this, because I am very wary about poetry. But thanks.
This made some work for me in the writing. What colours are wet clothes? The original colour, now wet? Or a different colour, once they are wet? But I think you're right - leaving out the "white" might fix it.
Hmm. Unconvinced. I'll think about it.
Yes, agreed. The whole queue thing, and where she was and where others were in what cars and why, came out muddled. That needs work.
Maybe. But you're robbing me of a writer's chance to emphasise the incongruity and the ugliness. And I also have a huge weakness for repetition, largely bashed out of me now by ruthless editors but still lurking under the surface.
Leowulf:
"Panties" is largely, though not totally, American usage. And I am not American.
It's one of those words we non-American writers here have to grapple with. There are many others.
I dealt with this in the Sagittaria section. Trust me, it's real. Or at least it is in big underpopulated places with lots of rivers - Australia, Africa, South America. It's all a matter of perspective. For example, I can scoff at some city-dwellers who have to deal with two-hour traffic jams. Unheard of. Ridiculous. Why would anybody put up with that? Clearly, it's fabrication.
Hey, watch it, babe. This is the Herr Doktor you're talking to. I'll administer the unpleasant medicine, thanks.
"Und now, Herr Leowulf, you will swallow this highly concentrated salt pill, and you will take twenty more before this day is out."
Many thanks to all. I recommend Fish Tank to any who have not yet participated. It is quite the best writing self- improvement course I have struck.
Only one problem. It took me longer to write this response than it did to write the story.
DrSpin
* also at [email protected] and at http://www.ruthiesclub.com
From: oosh
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 03:46:28 GMT
DrSpin <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
My apologies for not feeling able to take part.
I wouldn't be so harsh.
Some readers want everything explained, and get distressed if anything isn't clear. I think it's worth a separate discussion topic.
I don't want anyone bad-mouthing my home town, please. I lost the ability to write in the past at the age of twelve (some earlier, some later ...). I'm sorry for those who still can. I'm even sorrier for those who used to be able to write in the future.
Everything was totally clear to me. I couldn't understand the others' perplexity.
Yeah. Nick, your wife is a lucky woman. If I had my time again ...
It's the poets you need to watch.
You've given me courage.
I realize I'm totally out of order commenting on your response, particularly when I've done nothing to help. But I enjoyed it at least as much as the story.
I didn't dare comment on the original story, because I didn't (and don't) feel capable of it - except to say that I was sufficiently impressed by its positive points not to want to find any negatives. I was impressed by some of the insights you received, and just "lurking' was a very helpful experience.
O.
From: Desdmona
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 03 Mar 2002 15:48:33 GMT
<snip>
Ah, but Oosh, you're missing half the point of the FishTank. It's not only about writers critiquing writers, it's also about readers letting writers know why something works or doesn't work for them.
I understand all to well the intimidation factor with some some of the talent floating about around here, but anything a reader might say or feel is just as valuable as something someone else might write.
And besides all that generality, more specifically to you - you're selling yourself way too short. You're definitely on my list of people whose opinion and insight I value. And not being a betting woman, I'd still bet the farm that I'm not alone in that.
OH, and one more thing:
The FishTank has guidelines not hard-set rules and another of its purposes is to promote discussion - while a story is on display and after. I promise not to send out the FishTank militia without due provocation.<smile>
Des
From: DrSpin
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 3 Mar 2002 10:04:04 -0800
In article <[email protected]>, Desdmona said ...
Agreed. There is no doubt at all about oosh's "qualifications", even if she thought she needed any. She posts stories that are well-received, and she posts eloquently on matters of grammar and usage. Her input would be very welcome.
DrSpin
* also at [email protected] and at http://www.ruthiesclub.com
From: oosh
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 03:34:28 GMT
DrSpin <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
All I can say is that I could not analyze your story and I don't want to. It is itself, and I will not forget it.
O.
From: oosh
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 03:32:16 GMT
[email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote in news:[email protected]:
Sometimes I'm afraid that to dissect is to kill.
Thanks!
O.
From: Ray
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 01:12:56 -0500
"DrSpin" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
Sorry Dr. But it still doesn't quite have that 'lilt' to me. Not without adding a pause, mid-sentence, say just after mud. Now, if you added a comma there, denoting a pause and separating/delineating the mud and what it smelled like. 'That' would work for me.
I realize, though that it is a matter of taste and my US school system language perversions (sorry Alexis), and it's delineations from the 'mother tongue'. Having become a hodge podge of influences from numerous languages as people immigrated (something that is still happening - the most recent influences seeming to come primarily from So/East Asia and the Middle East). Yet, to my ear and palate, as an unbroken single sentence it simply is not pleasing - it keeps screaming pause to me, either after 'days' or after 'mud' but it wants one, to my ear.
Hate to be disagreeable, but ...
<g>
Ray
From: DrSpin
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 3 Mar 2002 23:14:28 -0800
In article <[email protected]>, Ray said ...
Not disagreeable at all. Just me, just you. If we all agreed on what we like to read, there'd be only about 12 writers writing.
DrSpin
* also at [email protected] and at http://www.ruthiesclub.com
From: oosh
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 00:52:12 GMT
"Ray" <ray1031@ cac.net> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
It's / its - we're only nit-picking here, but this is a bigger ouch for me. Easily fixed.
Really not wishing to be disagreeable (especially as I've committed some howlers in my time),
O.
From: dennyw
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 03:45:17 -0800
On 2 Mar 2002 18:16:27 -0800, DrSpin <[email protected]> held forth, saying:
Ray:
the doctor of twirl:
I agree with Spin - but some of Ray's preference (and Spin's) is likely regional; I think Brits, Assies, Kiwis, and other colonial/former colonial British-derived English-users drop articles much more freely than do we in the States. ("she was in hospital" fex)
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: oosh
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 01:00:02 GMT
[email protected] wrote in
news:[email protected]:
Denny, you've touched on something interesting that one of my US readers picked up (actually, I thought it was you, but I was wrong).
Four words occur to me that have this special treatment in English: hospital, school, university, college.
If I say "You must go to hospital", I mean that you must go as a patient. If I say "You must go to school", I mean that you must go as a pupil. If I say "I am going to university", I mean that you go as an undergraduate. Ditto for college.
If I were a teacher, I'd not say "I'm going to school". I'd say "I'm going [over] to the school." To say of a doctor, "He or she is in hospital" would imply that he or she was a patient. You'd use the article otherwise.
It's a bit like being "in limbo" or "in heaven". These words have a state- ness about them, and that's the reason the article is dropped. The following would both be unidiomatic:
"She's in infirmary."
"She's in office." (Or any other room.)
We're really looking at a very special aspect of English usage. Do you say "I went to school" as opposed to "I went to [a or the] school"? I think it's the same sort of thing.
O.
From: dennyw
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 19:36:44 -0800
On Tue, 05 Mar 2002 01:00:02 GMT, oosh <[email protected]> held forth, saying:
H'm. Wasn't aware of the latter 3.
These (school,uni, college) we use the same way. Though we rarely use 'university' in that construction. Much more likely 'college.'
I think a teacher here (at any level) would just as likely say "I'm off to school" as "I'm off to the school."
For the doctor-patient dichotomy, we seem (IME) to use 'at': "Oh, Dr. Kafka is at the hospital." (suggests that Dr. K works there) "Dr. Crippen is in the hospital." has the stateness of being a patient attached.
But for both of those (and hell) there's also their uniqueness. There's only one limbo/heaven/hell.
We very likely would (and in fact I've heard and seen) "Joe's in University Hospital." I don't think I've ever seen "in the <name> Hospital."
Unlikely 'to a school' - seems self-evident. Now, if a specific school were already in play, 'to the school' would be clear. But for the general condition of having been schooled in an institution (no, not Borstal!), we'd clearly say 'I went to school.'
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: Ray
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 23:23:31 -0500
"oosh" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
Sorry, Fair Lady. As usual I was responding on the fly and didn't take the moment required to proof my own finger work. My apologies .... can I offer you a bandage? <g>
Haven't we all .... haven't we all ....
Ray
From: Alexis Siefert
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 05 Mar 2002 05:59:41 GMT
<snip>
Oh good, something I can talk about <g>
I say either, "I'm going to school," (usually to people who know I'm a teacher) or "I'm going to work," (often to people who don't know I'm a teacher. But this is a hold over from being assumed to be significantly younger than I actually am. If I say, "I'm going to school," to someone who doesn't know I'm a teacher, most often the reaction I get is, "oh really? Do you go to Dimond or Service?" (two of the high schools here in town).
On the weekends (or evenings, or other non-school/work times) if someone asks me where I'm going, I might say, "I'm going to the school." This assumes that they know I'm a teacher and they know where I teach.
In terms of 'higher' education, quite often here in the US, college/university are used interchangeably - at least in conversation.
(The following was quite frequent when I was an undergraduate. I was several years younger than the average college/university student, AND I looked several years younger than my actual age - it was a doubly whammy, so to speak.)
"So, do you go to Service or Dimond?"
<me> "Neither. I'm in college."
"Oh, are you at King Career Center?" (a sort of "tech-go while you're in high school and learn a trade" Jr. College kinda thing.)
<me> "No, I'm over at the University."
So, I'm "in college," at "the University."
Just my two-cents.
Alexis.
Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing. - Clive James
ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/Alexis_S/ http://www.asstr.org/~Alexis_S/
From: Gary Jordan
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 05 Mar 2002 10:13:21 GMT
Alexis added tuppence:
I've never had a problem understanding "to hospital." I also understand the in versus at terminology. But like Alexis, I have a relevant contribution that's workplace related.
Does anyone recall where I've said I worked? If I say, "I'm going to prison," everyone assumes the context of incarceration. If I say I'm in the prison, same thing. I'm at the prison - I just work there.
Gary Jordan
"Old submariners never die. It's not within their scope." http://www.asstr.org/~gary/ http://www.asstr.org/~gary/Clitorides/
http://www.asstr.org/~gary/ShonRichards/ http://www.asstr.org/spotlight.html http://www.storiesonline.net/
From: Jacques LeBlanc
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 4 Mar 2002 23:04:18 -0800
oosh <[email protected]> wrote in message news:
Actually, we do use the latter in referring to politicians, but it means that they currently hold a political office, rather than that they're physically present in their offices; the Shrub is in office (more's the pity) whether he happens to actually be in the Oval Office or not.
We do say "I went to school" and "I went to college," but, oddly enough, we don't drop the article before "hospital" or "university" in common American usage. Saying "I'm in hospital" or "I'm going to university" marks you instantly as a speaker of British (or Commonwealth) English. Later,
Jacques
From: Uther Pendragon
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 4 Mar 2002 08:58:21 -0700
The story "Monsoon" seems to be raising the question of "what is a monsoon?" The people who know aren't giving all that much help. They keep using the word to describe the idea.
Okay, "monsoon" applies to two entirely different phenomena which always come together.
One is a wind blowing always in the same direction (at a given season of the year). This is utterly unlike a cyclone. (The equivalent of a cyclone is a "typhoon.") It always blows in the same direction for months at a time.
The second phenomenon is the rain which accompanies that wind, especially the onset of that rain.
(To be terribly technical, there are two monsoons. Some places are hit by both, like Kerala. Some are only hit by one. They involve winds in different directions and at different times of the year.)
If you live in the area, you know when the monsoon is coming within a few days. OTOH, you don't plan to stop moving for the "rains." People in Minnesnota and N. Dakota don't say: "January? I can't come to work then; I'll probably be snowbound."
To give you some idea as to how dependable those winds are, consider the spice trade in the early years of this era.
In those days, the accepted sea route from Palestine to Rome was coast-wise. Ships did not cross the Mediterranean; they crawled around the coast in a quite indirect path. (They did cross the neck of the Adriatic.) Read the voyages of Paul with a good map in your hand.
At that time someone (I think he was blown off course by accident) discovered that you could sail on the South East Monsoon from the mouth of the Red Sea (Okay, more like Cape Guardafi) across the entire Arabian Sea to the Malabar coast. You could also sail on the Northwest Monsoon back again.
And Greek ship captains who barely left the sight of land in their homewaters routinely took that trip for centuries to come.
Physically, the monsoon is a positive-feedback system. The wind blows air saturated with water vapor off the tropical seas onto land. The air rises and cools. The cooling dumps some of the water vapor as rain. The condensation of the water vapor warms the air. The warm air rises further. It dumps more water vapor.
As that goes on, the air moves inland. The rising of the warmed air creates a low-pressure area which draws more air after it.
Any one area gets a constant stream of warm, wet, air off the sea. The rain can go on for quite some time.
In major sections of the tropics, there are one or two rainy seasons and one or two dry seasons. People don't talk about "hot" and "cold" seasons. (And in some of those areas, the dry seasons wouldn't impress a Texan as dry; some of Kerala wouldn't impress Seattle as dry.)
Uther Pendragon FAQs http://www.nyx.net/~anon584c [email protected] fiqshn http://www.asstr.org/~Uther_Pendragon
"Uther is perfectly correct." Hecate
From: oosh
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 16:47:23 GMT
[email protected] (Alexis Siefert) wrote in news:[email protected]:
Very interesting, Alexis. In the UK we would use the phrase "in college" to mean "residing or located within the college precincts", but we'd say "at college" to mean the same as "at school".
O.
From: oosh
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 16:49:43 GMT
[email protected] (Gary Jordan) wrote in news:[email protected]:
Thanks for that example - it works the same way in the UK. I think we'd find it OK to say "I work in the prison" or "at the prison".
O.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 12:58:03 -0600
On Tue, 05 Mar 2002 16:47:23 GMT, oosh <[email protected]> wrote:
It is one of the usage differences between UK and American English. There are a lot of other subtle ones like that.
A somewhat related one is the use of articles with ship names. USA civilian tradition says you say 'The Enterprise is coming into port today.' Military tradition says you don't need to use the article because it is a she (person), or some such. 'Enterprise is coming into port today'.
University and College also have somewhat specific meanings, at least in the USA. We mix them up, but for example, I attended college (a specfic part of the school, with its own dean and buildings) at the university (the larger school structure, consisting of more than one building and in my case, more than one campus (school grounds) separated by several miles.
Not that it relates to the in college, the college, etc. And having dealt with UK and other people, I can say "I went to university" without feeling compelled to put in some defining article. Whereas it is OK in USA'n to say "I went to college." Note that in both cases, it would be interpreted as attending the institution, not travelling to the place. We'd tend to put in a or the in such a case.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: dennyw
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 12:51:05 -0800
On 05 Mar 2002 05:59:41 GMT, [email protected] (Alexis Siefert) held forth, saying:
At least now they're asking you about high schools, not junior high ....
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: Conjugate
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 17:03:41 -0500
<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
"In school" and "in college" are also USA-used variants. "In hospital" and "In university" are not. I'm not sure why the difference, but we would say, "Jeff's at the University now, working on his Master's degree," and it would sound funny to say, "Jeff's at University ..." where we would not hesitate to say, "Jeff's at college," or "Jeff's in college ..." for whatever reason.
Snipping to get to:
I've heard of Crippen, but can't place the reference.
A-HA! Got you! You've never heard of "7th Heaven," I suppose?
Now that's downright mysterious. In Americanese:
"Joe's in College" - OK
"Joes's in University" - Not OK, should be "the University." "Joe's in University Hospital" - OK again. "Joe's in College Hospital" - Still OK. ???
I'm in the trouble, here, I think.
Conjugate
on computer again.
From: oosh
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 23:52:13 GMT
"Conjugate" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
Crippen was the first murderer to be caught as a result of a radio message. He was (by all accounts) something of a henpecked husband. He then met and fell in love with a pretty waif, and decided to make a new life for himself. So he slipped his wife something a little stronger than vitamins that cured bed-wetting, henpecking and all other diseases known to man; and then carefully cut her into little tiny pieces, which he buried in the basement of his home. Then he bought two tickets on a transatlantic liner, and hopped it with his waif. To avoid suspicion, she dressed as a boy and posed as his son. A sharp-eyed observer thought that this "son" had a rather nice bottom and reported his or her suspicions to the authorities. They radioed back to Britain and were sent a description of Crippen. He was arrested, broke down and confessed.
He was shipped back to Britain and was hanged for the murder of his wife. I forget what happened to his "son".
Probably Google could tell you more and better than I.
O.
From: oosh
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 00:02:32 GMT
[email protected] (Jacques LeBlanc) wrote in news:[email protected]:
Yes, I was thinking on tram-lines. We use "in office" in exactly that sense too.
O.
From: oosh
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 16:35:12 GMT
Jeff Zephyr <[email protected]> wrote in news:3c842915$0$35570$272ea4a1 @news.execpc.com:
Thanks for explaining!
O.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 12:14:54 -0600
On Tue, 05 Mar 2002 16:35:12 GMT, oosh <[email protected]> wrote:
"everybody must get stoned" (line from a song which might be relevant).
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 12:20:18 -0600
On Mon, 4 Mar 2002 21:57:35 -0500, "Conjugate" <[email protected]> wrote:
There are lots of social groups, and stoners were a big one. Probably still are :0)
You are supposed to figure out how to be decadent while your body is young enough to handle the side effects. Good girls do, you know?
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: dennyw
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 12:37:06 -0800
On Tue, 05 Mar 2002 03:04:35 GMT, Selena Jardine <[email protected]> held forth, saying:
I think it's more along the lines of,
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: Conjugate
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 16:41:27 -0500
Selena Jardine <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
Sorry to give you a headache. It's just that, in High School, I was shy, and teased a great deal by some people. One young woman got me alone in an office at one point after hours, and asked me if I knew much about pussy. I assumed she was simply looking for an opportunity to make fun of me. In retrospect, and knowing things I found out about her later, I think I was wrong; she was looking to get her rocks off. There were other occasions, some vaguer in my memory, so perhaps they are wishful thinking.
Conjugate
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 19:19:10 -0600
On Tue, 5 Mar 2002 16:41:27 -0500, "Conjugate" <[email protected]> wrote:
It is easy to get a headache, thinking about all the things you could have done, or might have been. I, for example, detest suggestions (based on age and background) that I could have been Bill Gates. I never wanted to be him. The money, that is cool, but I liked Gary Kildall better (Digital Research, makers of CP/M). Everyone gets to make choices, and some change who you are, more than you want to change.
Both boys and girls use teasing for friendship and seduction. It just can be really hard to recognize when there is some good side to the bad behavior. I can't generalize, I can just pass along my experience.
Which probably won't help you feel better. But maybe it will? I knew a girl like that. She and her best friend got together with me in the auditorium study hall, which pretty much was a place to fool around and talk, no worries about being near enough anyone to interfere with your work - or other discussions. I knew her reputation, and she seemed unlikely to go out with me. She liked older boys with cars, jocks mostly. It was my first high school year, and though I'd had one nice romance it didn't last, and apparently had no effect on my reputation (the fact that we kept it secret probably didn't help that). She'd teased me before, not so intensely, and not so much about sex. Her friend was kind of shy, unlike her, but she'd butt in with questions and comments.
I wasn't good at handling teasing. I could take serious discussion and humor, but not teasing, so this situation bugged me. Not enough to leave, and I tried to figure out whether she was really being mean, or had some nice feelings for me. It went on to some "what have you done" sorts of questions, and to around to a sort of dare to actually prove it. My claims vs. hers, more or less.
OK, that was probably easier because I'd had sex at that point, but you have to get to that stage somehow, don't you? Anyway, we ended up going out for almost a year. However, even if I had been a virgin and clueless about sex, she might have gone for it anyway. That was how she was. It turned her on to seduce boys, and once her reputation for doing such things was made, she figured it couldn't hurt to take advantage of it. You can't erase a reputation; you can find nice boys (and others) to stand up for who you are.
I can't answer for all girls, but some do like shy boys. For that matter, some boys like shy girls, especially if they share common interests. I was one of those sorts; drama, math, and chess clubs aren't the sort of places which suggest social action of the dating sort, but ours had some nice girls in them.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: dennyw
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 01:33:32 -0800
On Tue, 5 Mar 2002 17:03:41 -0500, "Conjugate" <[email protected]> held forth, saying:
I guess I should have picked another hospital than the one near the University of Washington. (University Hospital, oddly).
How about Walter Reed Hospital instead? Please replace 'University Hospital' with it. :)
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: dennyw
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 01:35:24 -0800
On Wed, 06 Mar 2002 00:02:32 GMT, oosh <[email protected]> held forth, saying:
But our pols are more active than yours: ours 'run for office' whereas yours 'stand for office.'
Never quite got that one.
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 20:09:48 -0600
On Wed, 06 Mar 2002 01:35:24 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
In the USA, candidates must run around the country collecting support. In the UK, the guy stood up and said he was willing to take the office if someone would vote him in. Democracy in the UK took a bit to get to active political campaiging, with all that running around, kissing babies, eating bad food, and the other things which make American politicians so bad-tempered ... er, tough.
That makes sense to me. I could look it up, but I'd guess that the town meeting tradition of standing up when nominated probably has something to do with it.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Conjugate
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 23:54:53 -0500
"Jeff Zephyr" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
Well, I had an alternative (silly) idea: It seemed to me that an American politician might say, "By golly, I won't stand for this kind of unseemly corruption - I'll run for it!" Whereas a British politician would say, "Well, I will stand for this kind of unseemly corruption!" But then, I am probably too cynical and bitter. No doubt it is all the hops in my beer having that effect.
Conjugate
who's taken to drinking good beer.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 13:07:40 -0600
On Sat, 9 Mar 2002 23:54:53 -0500, "Conjugate" <[email protected]> wrote:
Maybe, in America the candidate has farther to go to get to office too?
Cynical? I don't know - in Milwaukee County, WI, USA, the county board and supervisor have resigned over a retirement benefit scandal involving millions in payout. They "didn't read it carefully enough" before signing the pay deal. Right? ;-)
Ok, they are out now, and have said they won't take the money. The courts still have to resolve whether they can decline such payment when it has been authorized by law. The idea of taking a job for four years, then getting millions (well above salary) in lump sum plus annual pension would sure attract a lot of people to politics, wouldn't it?
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Alexis Siefert
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 06 Mar 2002 13:09:14 GMT
And it's about damn time, too.
Alexis.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 20:12:34 -0600
On 06 Mar 2002 13:09:14 GMT, [email protected] (Alexis Siefert) wrote:
Sure, but in the long run you need to count your blessings. It is kind of cool to be carded, and asked where your parents are, when you're 30-something.
At least, if the reason is that you look young rather than just too short to be an adult. That discrimination against short people thing is annoying.
If you are thinking about an acting career, though, Hollywood needs 30-somethings able to play high school kids all the time. I guess that real high school age actors just aren't believable (or box office draws) in those roles :-) Or else the child labor laws make it hard to shoot the movies around their school schedules?
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: dennyw
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 20:30:05 -0800
On Wed, 06 Mar 2002 20:12:34 -0600, Jeff Zephyr <[email protected]> held forth, saying:
How 'bout if it's both?
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: Alexis Siefert
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: 07 Mar 2002 07:27:37 GMT
<sigh> Well, if you're going to do something, do it all the way, I suppose. Short and junior high appearance. Just delightful. Looking young may have it's benefits, but it also makes parent-teacher conferences highly challenging.
"And you're old enough to be teaching our pride and joy?"
<sigh>
Alexis.
Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing. - Clive James
ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/Alexis_S/ http://www.asstr.org/~Alexis_S/
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 12:06:27 -0600
On 07 Mar 2002 07:27:37 GMT, [email protected] (Alexis Siefert) wrote:
Of course, didn't they ever watch Doogie Howser? ;-)
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 12:04:47 -0600
On Wed, 06 Mar 2002 20:30:05 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
OK, that can make it a little harder. On the other hand, you don't have to shrink much with age to turn into a little old lady. Is that a bonus? :-0
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Conjugate
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 23:49:06 -0500
"Jeff Zephyr" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
Probably a little of each. Remember the movie Scream, in which Drew Barrymore and Neve Campbell both played high-school students? Ms. Barrymore was in her early thirties at the time, and Ms. Campbell in her late 20s or so, I think. It's possible that the directors and producers prefer actors with:
1) a good track record, and
2) proven maturity, and
3) box-office drawing power,
so that the only folks who can perform in their movies with those qualities are in (at least) their twenties.
Conjugate
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Monsoon, by DrSpin
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 13:03:59 -0600
On Sat, 9 Mar 2002 23:49:06 -0500, "Conjugate" <[email protected]> wrote:
I can see why it works that way. It just remains a reason why someone relatively short and young looking will always do well in Hollywood (and TV and other things like that) because finding actual HS age kids who can act well is hard.
There is also the growing-up on TV thing which affects some TV shows. The kids chosen to play younger ones grow up, and turn out taller and more mature looking than the older ones played by even older actors. Does put some limits on the run time of some TV shows, before you have to make changes to let the family grow.
I still think it can be fun to take advantage of the "problem" of being short and young looking. It makes up for the disadvantages that can have.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
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