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From: Katie McN
Re: Madison, by PleaseCain
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 19:29:35 GMT
Hi PleaseCain and "Desdmona" <[email protected]>,
On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:04:32 -0400 I noticed your interesting post:
*****************************************
Madison
by [email protected]
Mighty nice seeing one of your stories in the Fish Tank, PC. The variety of FT stories is wonderful and you help expand horizons once again.
I've read quite a number of your stories and like the way you take your reader into the PleaseCain world. It might seem like RL to some, but I know that the rules are a little different there and the people not quite the ones you'd meet over to the country club.
This story gives us another peek at your world. You paint some interesting pictures that flamed my imagination. Power, pulsing, blood scars, they're all in your story and bound together as they relentlessly move toward a conclusion. Loved this.
You made me think. Who are these people? What does the story mean? There were no codes to help me along. Why couldn't the young person be there? There was something about the male that caused me to think some very strange thoughts. What about the woman? All of this made the story enjoyable and fun to read.
There are a couple of things I would liked to have seen done in some other ways.
While you are writing in a somewhat literary style and a fiction author has great latitude with grammar, punctuation and so forth, I feel your opening would have worked better for me if you didn't use a phrase disguised as a sentence in the first paragraph. I liked your hook until I got to the second sentence and then was confused by what you wrote.
"She hooks her heels around his legs, really digs them in his thighs. While he's on top of her."
The following sentences were difficult for me to read and I would have preferred a clearer phrasing.
"Good thing Madison was by her daddy's, she smirked during her cigarette afterward, biting a nail."
"Grinning the way she does when she's got the righttime, and right there flexing her legs, that ran freshman track, constricts them until he's up against her little girl every time."
There is a formatting issue here which you might consider fixing up before you post the story again.
" ... good as they led you to believe.
But how wrong was that? Have you watched a man lifting weights, that
... "
It's wonderful being part of a community with so much diversity and originality. Thanks for continuing to add to our enjoyment.
It's Me Katie McN
Read My Stories at:
www.asstr.org/~Katie_McN/
From: Katie McN
Re: Madison, by PleaseCain
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 20:52:05 GMT
Hi [email protected] (Souvie),
On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 18:44:55 GMT I noticed your interesting post:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:04:32 -0400, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote:
*****************************************
Madison
by [email protected]
I'll do the three positive, but hold off on the negative things, at least for right now. I'm kind of confused about a couple of things and so I'll wait till other people comment in case they answer my questions for me. Then I don't have to show my ignorance by voicing them aloud.
1. I like the language. Short and choppy at times, filled with metaphors and symbolism, it kept me on my toes.
2. The length seems right - not too short and abrupt, not too long and windy.
3. The title doesn't give away the story.
Dang, girl, 'fraid to hang your butt out there? Well, I got confused by some things, too, but I've never let lack of information stop me from shooting off my mouth. ;-)
It's Me Katie McN
Read My Stories at:
www.asstr.org/~Katie_McN/
From: Souvie
Re: Madison, by PleaseCain
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 14:03:36 GMT
On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 20:52:05 GMT, Katie McN <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi [email protected] (Souvie),
On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 18:44:55 GMT I noticed your interesting post:
I'll do the three positive, but hold off on the negative things, at least for right now. I'm kind of confused about a couple of things and so I'll wait till other people comment in case they answer my questions for me. Then I don't have to show my ignorance by voicing them aloud.
Dang, girl, 'fraid to hang your butt out there? Well, I got confused by some things, too, but I've never let lack of information stop me from shooting off my mouth. ;-)
Well, since Katie challenged my manhood <snicker> a negative thing I found with the story was that I had no idea who Madison was and why he/she was important enough to the story to merit her name being the title.
And for the record, yes I am afraid to hang my ass out at times. I'm not a natural, bold Texan (wasn't born and raised here) - I'm a displaced Floridian. :-P
- Souvie
From: Bradley Stoke
Re: Madison, by PleaseCain
Date: 29 Apr 2002 14:32:35 -0700
PleaseCain
Sometimes when I read erotica, I feel like I'm seeing inside a very different experience of sex to the one that I can ever relate to. Inevitably, that can sometimes make you recoil, but here it has a fascination made gloriously vivid. I guess there are men and women out there who have "Oscars" and know what a "Holly Hobbie" is. I'm not sure I really do at all. Though this is perhaps just an insight into a different world.
I really liked the hot, sweaty, mechanical feel of this story. I had very strange, fleshy images in my head, muscular masculine flesh, rhythmic thrusting. Indeed, I had much more of the sense of the man than of the woman. It could very easily have gone one step further and be a gay male fantasy.
The pace and rhythm of the story was perfect. That may sound like vacuous praise, but in fact it's something I treasure in fiction. Especially short fiction. All stories have elements in them: structure, clarity of language, tight-plotting, evocative description. Here the strongest feature was its rhythm. Subtle, hard to describe, but constantly there.
I actually do have two criticisms, oddly enough. One is the title. Is "Madison" the daughter? Why has she such a prominence in the title, but rather less in the story? Have I just missed something? I'm confused.
The other is the series of obscure phrases and sentences. Now, it may be that this is a milieu that I just don't understand. But I still don't know what a "Mrs. Beasley" is. I wasn't sure what "wound glows ripe scarlet, tiny beads of blood along the crest". I liked the "portobello mushroom" gag. And I was even more puzzled by the end: "A hard-working heart. One worth a chance, just one, she'd promise her in the morning."
Perhaps this is not so much a criticism as a confession of ignorance.
All in all, not a story I would have chosen to read normally, but not one I was not sorry for having done so.
Bradley Stoke
for more: http://www.asstr.org/~Bradley_Stoke/index.htm
(mirror: http://bradley-stoke.fsn.net)
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Madison, by PleaseCain
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 19:25:27 -0500
On 29 Apr 2002 14:32:35 -0700, [email protected] (Bradley Stoke) wrote:
PleaseCain
Sometimes when I read erotica, I feel like I'm seeing inside a very different experience of sex to the one that I can ever relate to. Inevitably, that can sometimes make you recoil, but here it has a fascination made gloriously vivid. I guess there are men and women out there who have "Oscars" and know what a "Holly Hobbie" is. I'm not sure I really do at all. Though this is perhaps just an insight into a different world.
On ignorance: I knew some of them. I did a search for Holly Hobbie, and only needed to see the links to know what it was - no need to go on. It is an image used on greeting cards and other things, of a girl in a blue bonnet, a frontier sort of girl (USA'n primarily I'd guess).
Oscar - the golden statue of that guy given out as an award. In this case a reference to his penis (almost anything can be interpreted as that, as pet names and such are common),.
"Mrs. Beasley" is a rag doll. One called that name appeared on the TV Show "A Family Affair," and they make actual dolls of that name now. Anyway, a name for a toy rag doll like Raggedy Annie.
I actually do have two criticisms, oddly enough. One is the title. Is "Madison" the daughter? Why has she such a prominence in the title, but rather less in the story? Have I just missed something? I'm confused.
That part is confusing. The references to Madison are so small that it makes you wonder. My interpretation, though, is that the ending paragraph is all about Madison. This guy is good enough to consider as a prospective parent (or something like that).
Maybe I'm reading it wrong. But lust isn't the only reason for having sex with strangers, and a single mom might be looking for more than just someone hot in bed.
The other is the series of obscure phrases and sentences. Now, it may be that this is a milieu that I just don't understand. But I still don't know what a "Mrs. Beasley" is. I wasn't sure what "wound glows ripe scarlet, tiny beads of blood along the crest". I liked the "portobello mushroom" gag. And I was even more puzzled by the end: "A hard-working heart. One worth a chance, just one, she'd promise her in the morning."
Perhaps this is not so much a criticism as a confession of ignorance.
That end took me a while to guess at. I'm thinking that the tale would be better with less need to guess, because it all hinges on the last sentence. If the "her" is Madison, then it explains why the story is named after a person who doesn't appear in the tale and isn't described at all.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Madison, by PleaseCain
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 19:16:03 -0500
On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:04:32 -0400, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote:
This is a tough one. The tale isn't about plot (Is there a plot?). The flow of images and emotions is great. I'm tempted to generalize, just saying how good the whole feel of the thing is.
On the other hand, it is sometimes unclear. Now, part of that is style - no names, no introductions - we don't even really get to know who Madison is, though I can make a guess.
Should I have to guess? I don't mind needing to think some to figure out who is doing what and when. In a flash short story, trying for depth, it can be hard to give enough details to explain things and keep it short.
An emotional illustration as well needs less clarity. If the participants aren't clear on the situation, should the presentation be clear?
But assuming that a big more clarity is a good thing, that would be my #1 recommendation for thing to improve. I'll try to find a few particular questions there.
Her wail emanates from even deeper, a sleeping seed that climbs, quavering, all of her being carried in the sound, even after he sloughs to her side, panting, and her skin tingles in an aura of searing white bliss.
But before questions, I just have to say this paragraph is a lovely image of what she was looking for, her pleasure.
And Lord, her own crying that night scared her. A tornado dropped like a finger from the sky, drilling into her Mrs., plowing right up against a point she hadn't known existed. Good thing Madison was by her daddy's, she smirked during her cigarette afterward, biting a nail.
And Madison will be suspicious come morning, but the little ones will be happy to see their Daddy. It's her way. She'll come around.
I know, maybe we don't need to know who Madison is. A girl, her daughter, age unspecified - the little ones (also not detailed) are presumably younger.
Hmm, maybe it is just the punctuation which makes it a bit unclear.
'Good thing Madison was by her daddy's,' she smirked during her cigarette afterward, biting a nail.
Maybe that is better? Have the internal dialog punctuated, because there are so many commas in separate phrases, in a flowing style which tends to confuse dialog - internal and external - with the observations.
And now that beautiful bad thing is inside her again, getting stroked until she feels it purr under her petting. It's some bit of pride - some can bounce quarters for drinks, some are good at Lottery, but no one is better at what she does. When others collected Holly Hobbie, she exercised her, thousands of hours in bed with her headphones on, her refuge; even after they removed her lock, it was one thing she couldn't get in trouble for, because how could she for something they can't see, the one thing that was hers, her secret power, that only the chosen in life would know.
Removed her lock? No, that entire really long sentence is just confusing. I get the feel, but not precise meaning. She's good at sex? It makes her happy? Only the men she is with knows this? Anyway, whatever it is, it is just confusing here.
The contrast with Holly Hobbie (that cute frontier girl on cards with the bonnet) and what she does feels odd. That is OK, maybe you meant it to. But still, it is a rather strong sort of contrast, especially when it isn't all others who collect such things.
Absently flicking a loose corner of wallpaper with her fingernail, eyes sweeping the broad muscles sloping down to his waist, the dimples of his ass, the curly down of his thighs and calves. His shoulder flexes with each long breath, and beneath it and all else beats a good heart. A hard-working heart. One worth a chance, just one, she'd promise her in the morning.
A chance to promise her? I'm guessing that "her" at the end is Madison, and maybe guessing is OK, but there is nothing to make that certainly clear.
On a non-critical sort of observation, maybe a bit of reading things into the tale which it didn't have room to say, a woman who enjoys sex might look for a new father for her children in various ways. It isn't clear from the tale that is quite what she is doing - there are many other reasons to have sex with men with little introduction besides auditioning long term partners.
Single parents often do think about that sort of thing. It can make a deterrent to dating, at least serious dating, and is often a problem. Some sex stories do address that sort of problem, and I think that is one element of modern reality which helps make stories real. Parents have a hard time ignoring their kids, and those who do are almost always making a big mistake.
I'm not sure that this kind of tale would be quite so easy to take in a longer format. I suspect that more explanation would be made, but then we'd see more of the family and the entire situation. A job which produces wounds (perhaps on a regular basis), a less than obviously romantic start to relationships, and who knows what else.
But this short tale gives a nice illustration of the sex part of the situation. Sometimes, a nice sex life is an essential thing to have, to get by when the rest isn't as nice.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Conjugate
Re: Madison, by PleaseCain
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 21:18:43 -0400
Okay, here's my best shot at decrypting this message.
I'm going to snip a bit and see if I can figure out the meanings of the unsnipped bits.
"Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
Madison
by [email protected]
And Lord, her own crying that night scared her. A tornado dropped like a finger from the sky, drilling into her Mrs., plowing right up against a point she hadn't known existed. Good thing Madison was by her daddy's, she smirked during her cigarette afterward, biting a nail.
All right; so the sex was so good she screamed, and was glad the little girl wasn't there to be disturbed by it?
And Madison will be suspicious come morning, but the little ones will be happy to see their Daddy. It's her way. She'll come around.
Her boy toy will be there tomorrow when the little girl comes home; the little girl will be suspicious of her mommy's new boyfriend. But I'm not sure about the "little ones" unless the new boy toy has kids of his own?
Okay, snip to get to:
The scar down his forehead deepens, then relaxes. The swiveling against her slot stops. He raises a hand, and reaches for his beer. Pouring it down his throat the way guys do, the way the rush of liquid tick-tick-ticks leaving the can, a loose stream escapes that she dodges with her head, and she snickers because it feels nice on the burn between her first two fingers and her thumb from yesterday's double-shift, and because she won't let him psych her, because it's all about that with him and bed, crushing the can and tossing it to the wall.
The wound glows ripe scarlet, tiny beads of blood along the crest, and her fingernails tingle in sympathy. She licks the pad of her thumb, bringing it to his cheek, but he shirks it away. Her snigger disappears as he seizes her wrists.
She and he are both working-class, and not in any nice desk job; she's been injured on the job lately, as has he (hence the scar). But the wound glowing scarlet with beads of blood doesn't sound like the "burn" from yesterday's double-shift.
Snip to get to:
And now that beautiful bad thing is inside her again, getting stroked until she feels it purr under her petting. It's some bit of pride - some can bounce quarters for drinks, some are good at Lottery, but no one is better at what she does. When others collected Holly Hobbie, she exercised her, thousands of hours in bed with her headphones on, her refuge; even after they removed her lock, it was one thing she couldn't get in trouble for, because how could she for something they can't see, the one thing that was hers, her secret power, that only the chosen in life would know.
That sounds like a masturbatory reference. Or a reference to sexual fantasies. She would spend time in bed clenching her Kugels, and now those muscles are very strong, that's my take.
Absently flicking a loose corner of wallpaper with her fingernail, eyes sweeping the broad muscles sloping down to his waist, the dimples of his ass, the curly down of his thighs and calves. His shoulder flexes with each long breath, and beneath it and all else beats a good heart. A hard-working heart. One worth a chance, just one, she'd promise her in the morning.
I agree, this appears to be a claim that the viewpoint character will try to convince her little girl that this guy will be worth trying to get to know, because she likes being boinked by him.
Not a bad story at all, even though I don't understand it.
Conjugate
From: Gary Jordan
Re: Madison, by PleaseCain
Date: 29 Apr 2002 22:17:46 -0700
"Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...
The following is a flash fiction piece of 891 words by PleaseCain. FishTank guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
I could visualize a southern setting, whether or not that was the intent. It just seemed to fit. An encounter in one of those sleepy middle-sized towns where its small enough to be homey and large enough to be somewhat anonymous. That's me bringing my own preconceptions to the story, but the story let me have them.
I loved the colloquialisms! I know they make the story less easily understandable over a wide, especially international readership, but they added power to the words, and familiarity for me.
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
Like Katie, I think those first two sentences are one, missing a comma.
She hooks her heels around his legs, really digs them in his thighs. While he's on top of her.
I got a little confused here, too. This isn't their first time? Or first time tonight?
Their first time together confused her, his body rising smooth and steady as a hydraulic pump, and she thought he was done. Some guys aren't finishers, especially hard-asses like him; when you get them to bed, their hand isn't good as they led you to believe.
Just a little tidying up; its already strong.
Gary Jordan
(Raising the Sub Standards.)
From: Jacques LeBlanc
Re: Madison, by PleaseCain
Date: 1 May 2002 19:07:47 -0700
"Conjugate" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:
I read this completely differently; it'll be interesting to see what the author has to say.
All right; so the sex was so good she screamed, and was glad the little girl wasn't there to be disturbed by it?
Madison is the unnamed woman's grown-up daughter; the man is Madison's husband. The woman is divorced from Madison's father, at whose home Madison and her children are staying this night.
And Madison will be suspicious come morning, but the little ones will be happy to see their Daddy. It's her way. She'll come around.
Her boy toy will be there tomorrow when the little girl comes home; the little girl will be suspicious of her mommy's new boyfriend. But I'm not sure about the "little ones" unless the new boy toy has kids of his own?
The "little ones" are the children of Madison and her husband; the husband is having an affair with his mother-in-law. Madison will be suspicious to find him already at her mother's house when she and her kids return there from her father's.
Absently flicking a loose corner of wallpaper with her fingernail, eyes sweeping the broad muscles sloping down to his waist, the dimples of his ass, the curly down of his thighs and calves. His shoulder flexes with each long breath, and beneath it and all else beats a good heart. A hard-working heart. One worth a chance, just one, she'd promise her in the morning.
I agree, this appears to be a claim that the viewpoint character will try to convince her little girl that this guy will be worth trying to get to know, because she likes being boinked by him.
The daughter is considering divorcing the husband; the mother will try
to talk her out of it.
Later,
Jacques
From: Always Horny
Re: Madison, by PleaseCain
Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 13:54:23 +0200
Madison by [email protected]
1) 2 positive comments
I liked this story very much. It is sexy, it is hot, and it feels "seen from inside". Loved it.
The alternation is very effective, between descriptions of what is going on physically and what is going on in their heads. While this is basically only a hump-and-pump scene, it does not feel that way. Does not feel at all like a stroke scene.
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
I had a lot of trouble following the story, especially the first half. You jump and bounce from their current fucking to what she thought on their first time, to her past opinion of him as a lover, to what she thought on her first cigarette afterwards, to her kid, to ... You lost me.
It might help giving them names, I suspect.
I did not understand her "wound", either.
3) Try not to repeat!
Dunno, I don't read what others have written before. Otherwise I never find anything to say.
Thanks for sharing. This has potential to be a great story. I'd like to meet that chick, too <g>.
AH
A_H_01 at hotmail. com
From: Jacques LeBlanc
Re: Madison, by PleaseCain
Date: 2 May 2002 23:05:09 -0700
[email protected] (Jacques LeBlanc) wrote:
Madison is the unnamed woman's grown-up daughter; the man is Madison's husband. The woman is divorced from Madison's father, at whose home Madison and her children are staying this night.
After rereading the story, I've revised this interpretation just a bit. Madison was staying at her father's the first time her husband cheated on her with her mother. It's not clear where she is on the night story takes place, but I infer that she had a fight with her husband and hit him, causing the "tender welt on his cheek." That injury is also the "wound" referred to a few paragraphs further on. Later, Jacques
From: H. Jeckyll
Re: Madison, by PleaseCain
Date: 3 May 2002 05:30:10 -0700
Coming in late to the Fish tank, all the good comments (and bad) have been taken, but we're not supposed to repeat. Tough.
By far the best thing about the story is the feel. The quick sentences and off-hand remarks do give it a working class feel, but also a feel of activity, of the fuck happening now, of carnal desire being pursued without overlays of guilt or introspection but with the knowledge intruding of their relations to others, both now and in the past, who might be affected. The reader arrives after the action has started. The preliminaries are out of the way. We find what we need to know through the flow of memory and sensation while the couple gets into their illicit fuck.
Who mentioned 'mechanical'? Really, I didn't feel it that way (not that my reading is the 'correct' one). The story is written from the woman's point of view. She pursues her lust single-mindedly, and she focuses on the sensual delights, the way his body hangs before he fucks (and yes, the way he is hung), the way his whiskers feel under her tongue, etc. Thoughts, memories touch her during all this. They are part of her experience, but not the only thing, maybe not even the main thing. The main thing is servicing her desire.
I think it may be a mistake to focus too much on the vague and off-hand references. They take us into her world, her way of seeing and feeling things, whether or not we know exactly what she means. They can be considered portions of her stream of experience. They're part of the scene and we can tell enough from them to let us know what we need to know about her - desires, actions, world. In this sense the disjointedness is a plus.
But it's also the negative. I'm not adding anything new with this. The references are unnecessarily vague. It would (will) be easy to clarify them enough, so that the reader isn't tempted (like we've been) to stop to figure what they really mean, that old Lit Crit 101 exercise that can, in extreme cases (not here), ruin the act of reading.
Excellent work! I wish I'd written it.
hj
From: celia batau
Re: Madison, by PleaseCain
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 13:31:28 -0700
hi Please Cain and Desdmona!
- - - Original Message - - -
From: "Desdmona" <[email protected]>
Subject: {ASSD} FishTank # 37 Madison
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
3) Try not to repeat!
pozzie one: we like stream-of-consciousness
pozzie two: the rural feel to the story. and how the descriptions are strong.
neggie one: the non-sequitors within sentences made reading sometimes stumbling and awkward.
neggie two: flipping back and forth between the pov of the characters weakened the story. bc it's so short. maybe stay with one so that the feelings and atmosphere stay more consistent with the message maybe?
thanks for sharing it. :)
-cb
Madison
by [email protected]
From: Conjugate
Re: Madison, by PleaseCain
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 18:58:10 -0400
"Jacques LeBlanc" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
[email protected] (Jacques LeBlanc) wrote:
Madison is the unnamed woman's grown-up daughter; the man is Madison's husband. The woman is divorced from Madison's father, at whose home Madison and her children are staying this night.
After rereading the story, I've revised this interpretation just a bit. Madison was staying at her father's the first time her husband cheated on her with her mother. It's not clear where she is on the night story takes place, but I infer that she had a fight with her husband and hit him, causing the "tender welt on his cheek." That injury is also the "wound" referred to a few paragraphs further on. Later, Jacques
This explains several mysteries to me. Thanks, Jacques.
Conjugate
From: Desdmona
Re: Madison, by PleaseCain
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 23:31:47 -0400
Madison
by [email protected]
Cain~
Once again you amaze me with your ability to bring such depth to a flash fiction piece.
My take on the story is fairly different from those that have already responded. What I see is one big rationalization. The woman is having sex, loving it, and obviously can't get enough of it because she's having it with a man she's already had children with. But somewhere, for some reason, he's been out of the picture for a bit. And now, he's back.
The scars, the fresh wound, the beer guzzling during sex, all mount up to characterizing just what kind of man he is. He's a fighter, an abuser, but apparently, he's also a damn good fuck.
The blister on her hand from pulling double-shift - she's a single parent, working herself to the bone to support her children. She may even be a victim of abuse as a child, locked in her room, her favorite doll being discarded, etc. All hint at abuse.
And here comes the rationalization: What do you tell your oldest daughter, (Madison), who has lived through the abuse with you, when you let the abuser back into the home? The little ones are too young to understand, but Madison - oh, she knows. She's old enough to understand, to remember even what it was like when her mommy and daddy split and mommy had a new man in the house, and the new man was the kind that drank, and fought, and who knows what else ...
No need to be quiet tonight ... not because the kids weren't in the house, but because she's owning up to having that man back into the house. He would be there in the morning when they woke up.
By the end of the story, the woman does what thousands of other women do in abusive situations - she rationalizes that deep down he's a good man. And she tells herself that he deserves one more chance. And she'll promise Madison the same thing - just one more chance!
It's very possible that I'm completely wrong about the whole story - or my interpretation isn't close to what the author intended. But I wonder how important that is. It's what this story said to me. And it said it poignantly.
The title works for me. "Madison" is not only the woman's eldest daughter (by another man) but Madison also symbolizes the woman's conscious. Madison is the one she has to answer too. And Madison is the one who knows something just isn't right.
I think what doesn't quite work for me is the lyrical, almost poetic tone. If it doesn't matter the meaning of the story, then the flow is gorgeous, that stream of conscious thing, I suppose. But because of the characters, the situation, the flow seems almost too pretty. It makes me think that a reader could get caught up in the flow, and the fantastic, raw descriptiveness, and completely overlook the undertones of abuse. Would it be too soapbox-ish to not want abuse too carefully hidden? I don't know. I'm not completely sure I agree with my own comment on this, I have to consider that hiding it, or rationalizing it, is real. So maybe the contrast is a fabulous tool.
A couple of other things that haven't been mentioned so I'll splurge and go on - I like the use of "Mrs." and "her" for the woman's genitals. It's another big characterizing tool. It's stereotypical, I suppose, but there's a certain class of woman that would refer to herself in such a way.
And lastly, I like the sex. You can almost smell the sweat, hear the wails, and feel the "drilling" because of all the marvelous descriptions. It's just yummy!
Thanks Cain ... another good one!
Des
From: john
Re: Madison, by PleaseCain
Date: 3 May 2002 22:23:04 -0700
I'm writing these comments after a single read, not because "Madison" deserves less than several reads, but because I'm guessing the author might want to know how a "once over" reader might react.
It's good. It's no mean feat to create the depth of character, suspense, and even plot with little more physical action than an act of sexual intercourse. Sure, asides can mention this or that, but to be "shown" the conflict within a fragmented family, to see its impact on the oldest child, [I'm sorry Jacques, I couldn't follow your complex relationships at all.] that takes no mean skill. To create the vivid image of a pre-teen, I think, trying to cope with the carnal needs of her mother inside a single clause which doesn't even mention her by name. Well, wow!
It's raw. I liked the opening paragraph with its fragment. [How else do you pause longer than a comma?] I worried over a comma splice, though, and the introductory conjunctions. [But] by the end, I thought the roughness of the writing was a perfect match, for the power of the two actors centre stage. Can't you just see Madison peeking through a carelessly cracked door sometime in the not-too-distant past necessitating her current banishment? Yes, raw.
I was, however, more puzzled at the end than I wanted to be.
His shoulder flexes with each
long breath, and beneath it and all else beats a good heart. A hard-working heart. One worth a chance, just one, she'd promise her in the morning.
"It" in the first sentence might logically refer to either "his shoulder" or possibly "each breath" his or hers. "It" could also refer to the private act they have just performed together. That seems too important for any doubt at all. It shouldn't require a second read or internet research, because it identifies for certain "the good heart." I thought it ought to be Madison's mom. Mom is a hard worker, although I have no idea how her blister identifies her occupation beyond, of course, manual labour, but her young toy has just put in a good shift as well. If I knew who possessed that hard-working heart for certain, I think I'd know another chapter about poor Madison. I could be just a bad reader, but I think I'm average enough that the sentence needs a bit more work.
But how ... >And Lord ... >And Madison
I wish I could take that as permission to leave all my introductory conjunctions in ... as well as my dangling prepositions. No, please don't change them. I just had to say something foolish to count a second improvements.
Thank you for amazing me,
John
[I'm not sure I added anything at all to the confusion.]
From: Jacques LeBlanc
Re: Madison, by PleaseCain
Date: 4 May 2002 01:53:06 -0700
"Conjugate" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:
This explains several mysteries to me. Thanks, Jacques.
You're welcome. Of course, we won't find out whether I have the right explanations until the author weighs in tomorrow. Still, I feel fairly confident in my interpretations. Later, Jacques
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Madison, by PleaseCain
Date: 04 May 2002 13:37:14 GMT
john dear writes
(comments I agree with)
I don't know if Madison is a pre-teen, but almost certainly at most a young teen.
His shoulder flexes with each
long breath, and beneath it and all else beats a good heart. A hard-working heart. One worth a chance, just one, she'd promise her in the morning.
"It" in the first sentence might logically refer to either "his shoulder" or possibly "each breath" his or hers. "It" could also refer to the private act they have just performed together. That seems too important for any doubt at all. It shouldn't require a second read or internet research, because it identifies for certain "the good heart." I thought it ought to be Madison's mom. Mom is a hard worker, although I have no idea how her blister identifies her occupation beyond, of course, manual labour, but her young toy has just put in a good shift as well. If I knew who possessed that hard-working heart for certain, I think I'd know another chapter about poor Madison. I could be just a bad reader, but I think I'm average enough that the sentence needs a bit more work.
I didn't have any doubt that it is his heart, and that's why she is will to offer him "a chance" and furthermore willing to make it clear to Madison that it's just one chance.
But I also agree with this comment - and I agree with others that the piece overall is a little too difficult to "get" at first take (or maybe several) and little is served by this difficulty. The hard part is to "clean it up" without messing it up. I wish I had some advice for that, but I don't.
- Mat Twassel
From: Jacques LeBlanc
Re: Madison, by PleaseCain
Date: 4 May 2002 16:58:28 -0700
"Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:
It's very possible that I'm completely wrong about the whole story - or my interpretation isn't close to what the author intended. But I wonder how important that is. It's what this story said to me. And it said it poignantly.
It's possible you're wrong, but I think your interpretation explains it better than mine did. You still have to infer a complex set of relationships in order to explain everything, but I think yours make more sense.
A couple of other things that haven't been mentioned so I'll splurge and go on - I like the use of "Mrs." and "her" for the woman's genitals. It's another big characterizing tool. It's stereotypical, I suppose, but there's a certain class of woman that would refer to herself in such a way.
And lastly, I like the sex. You can almost smell the sweat, hear the wails, and feel the "drilling" because of all the marvelous descriptions. It's just yummy!
That's interesting; I found the sex rather unpleasant, if not quite squicky. De gustabus non disputandum.
I wasn't going to do a conventional FishTank post on this, for reasons that should become clear in a moment, but what the hell.
Positives:
1. Vivid imagery; I could see this couple clearly in my mind's eye.
2. Revealing details; you get a good sense of what the woman is like
and where she comes from, especially for such a short story.
Things to improve:
1. I'm not sure exactly how to do this, but the characters'
relationships, and especially who Madison is to each of them, need to
be less obscure. Desdmona's interpretation and my earlier one are
both plausible, given what's there in the story, and that really
shouldn't be the case; trying to untangle who is what to whom
distracts the reader and reduces the story's impact.
2. This isn't really something to improve, because to change it would
make this a different story from the one PC wrote, and, I infer, from
what he (or she?) wanted to write. I don't want to sound to harsh
here, but the thing is that I didn't like this story at all. The
characters, the setting, and the sex all struck me as squalid and
ugly. Whether the woman is having an affair with her daughter's
husband, or getting back together with her abusive, drunken ex, she's
engaging in self-delusion, and the story seems to be trying to bring
the readers along and sell us on her delusion, just as she will try to
sell it to her daughter. Perhaps the point is to show us a snap-shot
of "battered woman syndrome" from the inside, but if so, that too
needs clarification. As it stands, this is not a story I would choose
to read, and the reading of it brought me no enjoyment. All this
means, I suppose, is that I am not part of Pleasecain's target
audience; from the other responses to this post, it's obvious that
many other readers did enjoy the story, so I won't feel too bad about
dissenting.
Later,
Jacques
From: PleaseCain
Re: Madison, by PleaseCain
Date: 06 May 2002 05:25:55 GMT
Thanks to all who soldiered through and posted comments on this story.
My objective was to tell an entire story through a single act of coitus, to make the narrative immediate and energetic as the act itself, and to knead in the backstory as unobtrusively as possible, kind of a storytelling-by-inference. Since I generally dislike both stream-of-consciousness and discursive asides that bring pacing to a screeching halt, I aimed for navigating a middle path. The result is unconventional, but if we can't experiment or develop our chops in a wide-open, non-paying forum like this one, then I can't think of any place at all to take such risks.
Compounding the confusion of my approach is the fact that certain spots are just poorly written, mea culpa. The story was 90 percent in the can, and hibernating on my disk drive, when I volunteered it to the Fish Tank. Dusting it off some 24 hours beforehand, I found opportunities to attempt more, and began a new round of edits and additions. Even as I was clicking the Send-button hours later, I was wincing - I never let anyone see freshly written material, and I knew that the sixth, seventh and eighth innings (out of nine, for you non-Yanks out there) were a basic mess.
Now I'm not one who believes that every reader must understand each reference or detail contained in a story, nor do I think that the author is the sole arbiter of what a tale signifies. That this particular story inspired something of an Encyclopedia Brown-type debate, where readers pick apart the bones of a story to discern the mystery within, was entertaining and a little bit flattering. Of course, you have to be careful how you deploy ambiguity, because when you stack one on top of the other, it makes for a shaky structure, and you tempt the reader to discard the piece altogether as rubbish. Kind of discourages participation in the Fish Tank too, I guess, if as Souvie expressed, the commentators to refrain from posting for fear of appearing foolish or offending the writer. So, on the whole, since most commentators were left scratching their heads, I would judge the story a failure. Forces of Chaos - 1, Cain - 0.
But enough of this blather! Let us see the answer key, you windy fool! they clamor. Here is how I think of her:
An attractive blond woman, in her late-20s or early-30s, with a nine-year-old daughter named Madison, the product of an early marriage, and two toddlers from a second marriage/boyfriend, who is schtupping our heroine during the course of the narrative. She is rash, energetic and feisty, the product of an unstable family, a semi-retired party girl whose present life revolves around her children, but despite her best efforts at home and workplace, whose faulty judgment will more than likely perpetuate more of the same in her children. Her weaknesses are mirrored in her lover, a product of similar circumstances, and the two comprise a volatile couple; his fresh facial wound was inflicted by her. Madison is the woman's North Star, and in effect the wiser on the two. Madison and her younger siblings are at a grandparent's, and as sure as shooting, her Mama lapses. I can definitely see her thinking of Madison even AS she lapses. Hence the title, because Madison is the key presence in her life - yes, the symbol of her highest aspirations, and her very conscience, Des - whether Madison is present or not from moment to moment. I don't know what will happen when Madison returns home in the morning.
Your mileage may vary, and in fact, is truly more significant than the above. She was a concept in my mind, and I didn't enjoy committing her rap-sheet to paper just now. A few weeks ago, Oosh described this as laying bare the entrails of the story. All of the above is mutable. That said, Des somehow understood the entirety (except the last detail) and Jacques too, the important parts. I also enjoyed the other possibilities I hadn't even considered.
My objective was to depict a person and a situation; I suppose you could call it "battered woman syndrome," as Jacques did. Jeff correctly pointed out that there really is no plot, and I certainly had this story in mind when I wrote a friend of mine recently that much of my writing lately involves characterization and little plot. Of the two, I prefer to concentrate on the former, but I need to work on the latter.
The praise about the imagery and metaphor left me beaming, as these are areas I have been trying to develop.
Bradley mentioned the pace, for which I'm grateful, because I kept an eye on that while writing and editing, as well as on voice, which may or may not have worked. Celia was confused because the voice flipped perspective again and again, which was what I was attempting (the voice, not the confusion). It's a difficult technique, one I am still learning.
Again, my gratitude to Katie, Souvie, Bradley, Jeff, Conjugate, AH, Jacques, HJ, Celia, John, Mat, Gary, Desdmona and Ivan (I hope I'm not missing anyone - my newsfeed this week was lousy). You have made this an interesting week, and encouraged me. Please do not be offended if you are not addressed by name in my recap above; I have saved all of your comments, and will review (and relish) them over and over, before further editing. I will clean up the language, and make the story more comprehensible. Puzzles are challenging fun, but the purpose of writing, after all, is communication.
This week's Fish Tank was a rewarding experience for me. Thanks!
Cain
From: john
Re: Madison, by PleaseCain
Date: 6 May 2002 10:16:21 -0700
PleaseCain) wrote in message
Thanks to all who soldiered through and posted comments on this story.
<Smile.> I'd not have liked the story nearly as much if Madison or her mother had been any different. I just wanted to let you know two things.
1] I reread it after I made my comment. I liked it even more the second time. And rereading affected very little how I saw it at first. The word "addict" came to mind the second time through. You didn't use it in your commentary. It's a term I haven't seen much in the discussion group, maybe because we are the pushers. I wondered if you, too, might call the woman that.
2] Please don't polish it too much. I often tell the story of a native carver that I once knew well. He sculpted animals from spruce. In the rough stages I think his work might have been worth a great deal if marketed in a Toronto gallery. But he worked for weeks smoothing and polishing and coating them in shoe polish until they became the $20 souvenirs he thought that others wanted. I think Oosh said that in fewer words a few weeks back regarding drafting. I might have misread her.
Thank you again for writing it. It was magic.
A new fan,
John
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From: Souvie
Re: Madison, by PleaseCain
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 18:44:55 GMT
On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:04:32 -0400, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote:
I'll do the three positive, but hold off on the negative things, at least for right now. I'm kind of confused about a couple of things and so I'll wait till other people comment in case they answer my questions for me. Then I don't have to show my ignorance by voicing them aloud.
1. I like the language. Short and choppy at times, filled with metaphors and symbolism, it kept me on my toes.
2. The length seems right - not too short and abrupt, not too long and windy.
3. The title doesn't give away the story.
- Souvie