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From: Alexis Siefert
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: 04 Mar 2003 03:33:58 GMT
Katie, I think that you're to be commended for putting a story that is autobiographical and so emotional into the Fish Tank. We all have a stake in our writing, even the most fictionalized of fiction, but when we've written something that reflects the more painful aspects of our lives, it's very difficult to remain objective about suggestions. Thank you, Katie, for sharing this with us.
This is a very "meaty" story. There's a lot here to be recommended and praised, so it should be easy enough for us all to find numerous positive things to say without repeating (thanks for making THAT part so easy on us).
Early in the story is, what I think, the best paragraph of the entire piece. It's powerful, painful, it gives a real feeling of wandering - the desperation felt after a significant, life changing loss. But it's long. I think the impact would be stronger if it were split into shorter, more disjointed sentences and phrases to better reflect how (I think) she felt. Here's the original:
I made a lot of money selling our house, but had to use most of the money to pay Mallory's hospital bills. After all was done, I had about ten-thousand dollars and a classic 1964 Jaguar named Chester. I went off on a pilgrimage , driving Chester across the California- Arizona. Mallory loved songs by the Eagles and I decided to find out what they saw from that corner in Winslow. My mother never wanted to meet the woman I loved and I thought it was time to show Mallory's spirit the West Texas town where I grew up. Once Mallory pretended to get mad at me for flashing my tits at Mardi Gras and I took her memories to the same street corner in New Orleans and flashed an early- morning delivery guy. I went to Gallatin, Tennessee and visited Mallory's cousin. He said he'd get me a job and help with a place to stay. I left when he tried to put his hand down my blouse. I met our friends in New York City. We drank vodka and ate fish eggs in the Russian Tea Room. I went to Virginia Beach and remembered the day she laughed at the tiny waves that plinked against the sand. I did other things like getting drunk, smoking dope, doing ups, downs and some sideways if I couldn't find what I needed. There were many odd people on the road and I think I was one of them.
See? There's a ton of wonderful things in here. I love the aural image of plinking waves. I think we've all "taken memories" places, and it's wonderful the way you've given us the phrase for it. But with so many fantastic images here, I'm afraid they get lost all put together in the same paragraph. Readers begin to "scan" too easily over extended blocks of text. However:
I made a lot of money selling our house, but had to use most of the money to pay Mallory's hospital bills. After all was done, I had about ten-thousand dollars and a classic 1964 Jaguar named Chester. I went off on a pilgrimage , driving Chester across the California- Arizona. (**is there a noun missing here?)
Mallory loved songs by the Eagles and I decided to find out what they saw from that corner in Winslow. My mother never wanted to meet the woman I loved and I thought it was time to show Mallory's spirit the West Texas town where I grew up. Once Mallory pretended to get mad at me for flashing my tits at Mardi Gras and I took her memories to the same street corner in New Orleans and flashed an early- morning delivery guy. I went to Virginia Beach and remembered the day she laughed at the tiny waves that plinked against the sand.
(**I made the split here because above you're dealing with things private between Mary Kay and Mallory, below are things that were more external to the two-friends, cousins. I also moved the Virginia Beach sentence to be a part of the above paragraph-the private things-instead of putting it with the external memories. )
I went to Gallatin, Tennessee and visited Mallory's cousin. He said he'd get me a job and help with a place to stay. I left when he tried to put his hand down my blouse. I met our friends in New York City. We drank vodka and ate fish eggs in the Russian Tea Room.
( And I separated the below from the rest because it's not about Mallory and Mary Kay at all, it's about Mary Kay. It's a natural transition, but it needs to be separated. Actually, I think that it might even be better to reverse the order of the "couple" paragraph with the "family" paragraph. From the external memories of friends and cousins to the more private memories of the two of them together to the internal demons of Mary Kay alone. )
I did other things. I got drunk. I smoked dope. I did ups, downs, and some sideways if I couldn't find what I needed. There were many odd people on the road and I think I was one of them.
(**I split this up and changed the tense for a more consistent feel. )
I think I've most likely used up my 2 and 2 already, and I don't want to be a hog. There are some missing commas in the story, but I don't want to waste the bandwidth to point them out. I'm not sure that a long expository on correct comma placement really belongs in the Fish Tank, especially since you've given us all a story that's worth a more in depth analysis. I know that your editor will catch grammar and punctuation oversights in a final go-round -or I can e-mail punctuation stuff to you separately if you want. I suspect that ASSD eyes start either rolling or glazing over the minute I start mentioning 'compound sentences' <g>)
Okay, I'm going to be a hog <g> Katie, you've got quite a few wonderful turns of phrase here, the "orange explosion" of Mary Kay's orgasm at Ashley's hand. And, FWIW, I'd say keep the title simply, "Lap Dance." I don't see the need to add a name, or anything else to it. It says what it needs to say. "Mary Kay the Lap Dancer" sounds cheap, easy, trashy, and this story isn't any of those things. We all know that a lap dance is a fa�ade, it's a game played by a dancer. A lap dance isn't anything real-it's a cardboard relationship between a paying customer and a dancer. This story is about the cardboard feelings that come after a great loss. We need to have real emotions, and when our base has been taken from us-as Mary Kay's was when she went through Mallory's death-we look for anything, and what we all-too-often find is the cardboard, artificial feelings from alcohol, exercise, food, casual sex, drugs. Lap Dance, as a title, says all of that.
Alexis
"You must have a key made!"
"It won't do any good, I just lose them all"
- - - Holly Golightly, "Breakfast at Tiffany's"
http://www.asstr.org/~Alexis_S/
The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: Iago
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 23:01:22 GMT
On Mon, 3 Mar 2003 08:07:15 -0500, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote:
The following story is a complete story. It is longer than usual for a FishTank story, but I've decided that splitting long stories does a disservice to the story and therefore I'm posting the entire thing at 12,411 words. In the author's words:
FishTank Guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
3) Try not to repeat!
Hello everyone,
I'm not a Fishtank regular, but I've lurked at one time or another (notably when fellow MC writer Arclight offered up "The Prodigal Bride" for review). I've read Katie's latest story, and I'm posting the following comments which I hope will be constructive and helpful.
I hope the review won't get my butt slammed in the Fishtank penalty box; I started a list, as per the guidelines above, and got carried away quite a bit. The end product doesn't really ressemble the suggested 2 pro/2con format. As is the case when I'm writing stories, I tend to gather up steam, and I need room to maneuver.
Disclaimer: The more I read, the more I was absorbed. It quickly became obvious that "Lap Dancer" is an intensely personal piece, and as such, there are moments where I felt that my comments might be "misplaced" because I haven't been through a similar experience. Many of the scenes are hard to read because of the pain they show; others are touching and poignant, for similar reasons. I think the best way for me to help is to offer macrocomments, which can offer avenues that could be explored, leading to a better story.
1) Positive comments :
Overall, I'd say it's a very intense, very direct story. The narrative is well constructed, and it speaks with frank honest. Readers are not always accustomed to being adressed so directly, but this way of approaching the story reflects the harshness of the milieu. Getting this close is a way to do justice to the characters and events.
It is powerful, both in its portrayal of MK's plight, and in the way it handles sex. There's a power in those words that brings the scenes to life, especially from the narrator's perspective. The more shocking moments pile up on each other, and there's emotional investment in the story, as one gets closer and closer to the climax and resolution. If the ultimate goal of writing is to get the reader to care about the characters, to get them involved on a personal level, and to offer a finale that touches him/her, then I feel this story succeeds with high marks. MK's escape is like the lifting of a heavy burden - the gasp of air that comes as the swimmer reaches the surface. Freedom, stretching forth, as she drives Chester across the Michigan state line.
2) Suggestions:
How best to improve the story? What I would suggest is ... more details.
Katie adresses this very issue in the comments she attaches with the story. I agree with her that leaving some details is often best, but a few extra strokes of the brush would add greater depth to the overall portrait.
One or two observations, I think, would often do the trick. Something to make the scene a little more visual. I know the job of the good writer is to cut stuff from the narrative once he/she is done, but in this case, I think the story would benefit from additons in some of the key scenes of the story.
Let's discuss specifics :
-Ashley's present: visceral scene, made all the more suspenseful by the plight of MK, and the rise in stakes as she's made to perform for Ashley's pleasure. The club is a central location throughout the story, and I think it would be a good idea to describe it more; a few lines can make all the difference; say, the way the smoke hangs in the air, or the way the tables are set up across the main area ...something to flesh the place out a little more in the mind of the readers;
-The appartment: also a place that would benefit from a more detailed description; in many ways, it becomes a haven for MK, and Vernae's presence here makes it even more so. This is the flip side of MK's life at the club, and although drugs are present, there's a sense that she can be free and vulnerable here, without danger to herself. I found myself wondering about the life she'd built together with Vernae - more than a fellow dancer ... and ultimately, a kind guardian angel, as the end of the story shows.
-On the subject of Vernae: she touches the reader on many levels - I'm thinking another scene - or perhaps just a quick moment with MK - would be good ... something to establish that there is a growing commitment between the two characters; a subtle moment ... something that foreshadows the revelation that she was sacrificing a great deal to get the money so both of them could leave this life behind and enter the rehab clinic.
-The Mr. Silk scenes: not so much a suggestion as a comment: he was very well rendered; chilling character - painted him well, I had an immediate mental picture.
-Vernae's death: this is a difficult moment; my suggestion would be to add to it, to express more of MK's feelings as she's standing there in the appartment (and later on, at the funeral). In many ways, it's the emotional turning point of the story, so you can't err by adding to this moment. Readers need to experience the same pain that MK feels at that moment ... the "hollowing" which ultimately tips her into Mr. Silk's hands.
-The filming of the movie: now we see how the death of Vernae takes its toll, and how MK is struggling to hold on to what she has left. This is a difficult scene to go through, because it is so hard hitting. My suggestion here would be to flesh out the filming crew, accentuating some of the negative characteristics, especially the physical ones. This will be along "show, don't tell lines", and although it might make the reading of the scene even more difficult (stressing here - not because it is badly written, quite the contrary), the reality of having to fuck those old guys on camera will be all the more striking, all the more fierce and intense.
-Lastly, I think the revelation of Silk's hand in Vernae's death needs
a little more "camera time" - something to show the moment of fear and loathing MK must be feeling when it is revealed.
Oh, and another note, I find the title "Lap Dancer" is just fine. IHMO.
Rigth. Okay. Now I'm dearly hoping that I won't get a League suspension for ignoring Desdemona's guidelines and improvising at such dreary length. ;-) I promise to do better next time!
Love and lotsa fishtank bubbles,
-I.
I'm not in denial. I'm just selective
about the reality I choose to accept.
-Calvin & Hobbes
Iago's Home: http://www.geocities.com/Iago_72/
From: PeeJ
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 00:44:20 +0000 (UTC)
Having been involved in some edit/proof-reading of this story I feel I have something of a vested interest which rather precludes me from following convention by making the usual suggestions.
I do want to urge you to read it, however, and I believe that it is at least on a par with 'Mallory' and 'A Letter to Vanessa', and in my view, superior. Before looking at what others might say, I recommend that you first read the story all the way through.
Katie, or MK as many of us know her, has been very frank about her life and I have no doubt that this episode will shock many. I also think it will bring hope to a few. I find it amazing, and, as you will see, it reads like a screenplay, but this one is a true-life drama and its poignancy is wrung out of us, so take my advice and have a box of Kleenex to hand before you reach the end.
I would like to be one of the first to publicly congratulate her on this story, both for the writing and for having the courage to share it with us. However you look at her, whatever you might think of her, this is some woman.
PeeJ
From: Kenny N Gamera
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 20:00:11 -0500
On Mon, 3 Mar 2003 08:07:15 -0500, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote:
I've written some stories about a girl named Mary Kay including my favorite story, Mallory, and a first time story called A Letter to Vanessa. Each episode stands alone, but when I'm done with the series, it will tell a complete story starting when Mary Kay was four years old and follow her to the present. I'm not writing in sequence and this one is nearer the end than the beginning. I think I should mention that if the dark side of life is a problem then you might find this story troubling
Katie,
A beautiful story, this is Katie McN at her best. Yes, it is troubling, and the way it is told makes it doubly so.
That is the way it should be.
Part of what a writer tries to do is stir the emotions of the reader. Not all emortions are happy or good; not all stories should be happy or uplifting. The underside of life needs to be shown too. Katie, you have shown the underside of life extremely well. The writing is extemely powerful
At the same time, you did end with hope and change. That is also how a story should end. In a recent review in Time magazine, a review wrote that good and evil are not the real opposites; it is hope and evil. You show as much evil in this story. The story shows us that hope triumps(sp) in the end.
As for flaws, I can see none ...sorry but I can't ...
Your Friend,
Ken
From: Jim Butterfield
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 01:14:21 GMT
This is a very emotional story as you may see when you read it.
Not gothic-novel emotional, though. The style is terse and doesn't wander off into "feelings".
I'm interested in any ideas for improving the story. I also wonder if anyone has an idea for a title. I would like to use the name of a woman in some way. There are two possibilities, Mary Kay or Vernae. I don't think Vernae stands alone well since it's an unusual name. One of the ideas I've been kicking around is Mary Kay the Lap Dancer, but I'm not sure I like it.
Mary Kay, Snow Queen? Lap dancing is only one part of her, um, career in this story sequence.
The next point is the style I've used to write the story. I tend to be sparse on details and leave much to the reader to determine on his or her own. I plan on using the same style for the next four episodes which should finish off the story. I wonder if there are any suggestions specific to the way I wrote this story which I will try to carry over to the next episodes?
The episodic narrative is effective, and carries the story well. At first, the reader might be misled into thinking it's just a continuing story, and might be take aback by the "jumps". Suggestion: you might give each episode a brief title.
Vernae is central to the main story, so it seems to me that the first part (up to "Hey, Mary Kay, time to wake up and go to work.") might be called "Prelude", "Prologue" or something of the sort. If it were being done for paper publication, I'd be tempted to suggest that this section would be done entirely in italics.
Finally, the story is very emotional and I wonder if I balanced the downside stuff with enough upside or lighter material to avoid bumming out the reader?
Hey, nothing the matter with downside stuff. It makes good reading as is. Seems to me you might blunt the thrust of the story by doing too much upside. I suppose you could foreshadow the ending ("George, can we get a little farm? With rabbits? And we'd feed them alfalfa?") in a sense ... certainly, one of the darker aspects of the story seems to be that the protagonist shows no interest in future plans.
In any event I love the feedback I get from the Fishtank and look forward to all comments.
FishTank Guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
1. Good story, with a narrative thread carrying things through to a resolution. No discernable spelling or grammar mistakes, and nothing that upsets the flow. (Maybe that's two comments).
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
1. We see too little of what's inside the characters, both the principals and the bit players. We detect a sense of Mary Kay's distaste at some events, but even there it's controlled to be point of being sparse. Even Vernae seems to me to be something of a cardboard cutout, and the others - Martinez, Silk, Ashley, and even Jumbo seem like automatons to advance the plot. No facial expressions, grunts, sighs of contentment; no bald spots, mismatched socks, smells of perfume or sweat ... heros or bums, animate 'em!
2. I've had conversations with a limited number of strippers, and these all expressed a similar attitude: when they are performing, they are stars! I hear gloom when the house is poorly attended or, worse, silent; and delight when the boys are whooping it up. That doesn't necessarily mean they like most of their customers. But they want to be the center of attention, hold their heads up proudly, and make the audience sit up. On to the point: Mary Kay knows how to do the job, and how to do it well. I'd like to hear more from her on how she has the guys hooked, mesmerized, in thrall. She can do it, I know she can!
3) Try not to repeat!
Go, Mary Kay! You can do it!
- Jim
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From: Altan
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 03:03:28 GMT
On Mon, 3 Mar 2003 08:07:15 -0500, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote:
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
3) Try not to repeat!
It is only Monday evening, and already there are 5 posts before me (probably more by the time this one hits the servers); how on Earth can I not repeat? Katie, I hope you have noticed this as well, as I think the quick responses to this story are a tribute to its quality.
My comments are based whole on how I experienced the story, and may of course be contrary to your own intentions. Knowing next to nothing about the background, I can only try to show how this story appeared to me.
Postitive 1:
I can't say it is a good story, well written and all that, since that would be repeating. So let me say that I liked reading the sex part, reading it from the viewpoint of a "professional" woman. It sounds very true and may give me a rare glimpse into a world that is otherwise completely alien to me. I don't know any hookers, have never even been to a topless bar (although I once spent a quarter at a peepshow in New York), but this felt very true.
Positive 2:
The hopeful ending. I am a sucker for happy endings and even though this ending was open (a lot can still go wrong), it leaves us on a hopeful note.
Improvement 1:
Right at the start of the story, I was confused about the setting. You have the short section of Mary Kay asking for dope, then the flashback, then the continuation of the first scene.
The flashback is great, but I had trouble connecting the two parts around it. It seemed at first the party was something different alltogether; I thought Mary Kay was Martinez' girlfriend who was about to be ditched, and it took me a while to realize that it was actually Ashley who was the girlfriend.
Maybe this confusion could be prevented by mentioning in the first few sentences that Mary Kay is crashing a party. It would define the different roles more clearly, and might make for a more smooth read of the first part.
Improvement 2:
The scene with Ashley humiliating Mary Kay, although very interesting, maybe does not as much to the story as its length would suggest. The story is about Vernae, and about Mary Kay's struggle. The party scene provides a lot of background and explains more about Mary Kay, but by the time it is over we are 1/3 down the whole story. I think that might be a bit too much emphasis.
Thanks, Katie, for sharing this with us!
A.
http://www.asstr.org/~altan/
From: Conjugate
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 20:13:32 -0700
Wow. I am very impressed. Okay, well, here we go.
"Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
I'm interested in any ideas for improving the story. I also wonder if anyone has an idea for a title. I would like to use the name of a woman in some way. There are two possibilities, Mary Kay or Vernae. I don't think Vernae stands alone well since it's an unusual name. One of the ideas I've been kicking around is Mary Kay the Lap Dancer, but I'm not sure I like it.
My suggestion is something like "The Lap of Hell," or some other way to contrast the character's unpleasant surroundings with the phrase "Lap of Luxury," which certainly does not apply - sort of ironic. Hmm ... "Dance of Death" is too melodramatic. I like the idea of using the word "flesh" in the title, perhaps in a way that shows the industry's emphasis on people as meat rather than human beings ... I'll also suggest "Only Flesh Deep," or something along those lines. (What the heck, even if none of them are quite right for this story, they might be right for some story, and Lord knows I'm not writing enough to keep good titles to myself!)
The next point is the style I've used to write the story. I tend to be sparse on details and leave much to the reader to determine on his or her own. I plan on using the same style for the next four episodes which should finish off the story. I wonder if there are any suggestions specific to the way I wrote this story which I will try to carry over to the next episodes?
I am somewhat sympathetic to Jeff's call for more details about the appearances of the women. But sparsity here works for you; it suggests the bleakness of the situation. In that regard, it might do to extend your descriptions a bit at points where there seems to be hope dawning. In particular, when she finds the money under the mattress. Similarly, you might add a bit to the sensations she feels during making love with Vernae; tinglings, tickles, and so on. I liked the d/s scene with Ashley and thought you did that very well.
Finally, the story is very emotional and I wonder if I balanced the downside stuff with enough upside or lighter material to avoid bumming out the reader?
It seems so to me. I liked it very much.
In any event I love the feedback I get from the Fishtank and look forward to all comments.
FishTank Guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
3) Try not to repeat!
My positive comments; nice style, and arousing scenes. I mentioned these above, so I am violating the rules by repeating my own comments. Too bad!
Two suggestions for improvement; I have a couple of typos in the early part of the story. Yeah, I know; you have to be desperate to fall back on two typos. But I did like this story, Katie.
My hands moved slowly on my breasts, across my tummy, over my hips and down my legs. I could look sexy even if I didn't feel that way. The people in the crowd were getting into my dance and I heard the same lewd remarks I heard at the club where I worked."
You don't need the end-quote here; it's not matched by a begin-quote.
I took some time to play with my boobs and ran my hands up and down my hips. The dress looked like it was ready to fall off, but somehow it stayed around my hips long enough for me to do a some slow bumps and grinds. The wild shouting that filled the room told me I was doing things right.
" ... to do a some slow bumps ..." Lose the extra "a."
It's terrific. Thank you for sharing it with us.
Conjugate
From: Altan
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 03:31:51 GMT
On Mon, 3 Mar 2003 08:07:15 -0500, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote:
I also wonder if
anyone has an idea for a title.
Been thinking about that - none of the suggestions I've seen so far feel right to me. In fact, I like the current title. It is intriguing, might make people start reading the story. Also, it is very appropriate. But what I like most about it is that, when reading the story, you think that the title refers to Mary Kay. Only with the last paragraphs do you realize that the title really refers to Vernae. It emphasizes the twist that the story takes at the end.
I would leave it like it is.
A.
http://www.asstr.org/~altan/
From: john
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: 4 Mar 2003 07:04:39 -0800
Hi Katie,
Thank you for what must have been a difficult story to write and
share.
Positives
1] It seems authentic. There is an almost documentary quality to the
story. There are pauses in the action that give insight into several
aspects of the sex trade. When a story informs as well as entertains,
I think it's a step up from the ordinary.
2] The introduction is interesting and puts the reader directly into the story and the central conflict. It is well crafted (except for the missing comma in the second (compound) sentence). It goes without saying that the caution and statement of intent that precede the introduction must be there only for the Fish Tank reviewers.
Suggestions (Maybe these are both the same thing. If so, forgive me.) 1] The impact of Vernae's death (and other sad events) is lessened considerably by having it "retold" rather than shown. If you want the reader to be moved by the death, I'd be a bit more graphic in the description at that point.
2] The structure is a similar dilemma. You seem to want the element of surprise in revealing Silk as Vernae's murderer as a critical part of your conclusion. It almost turns the story from Mary Kay's redemption into a whodunit. If it weren't a first person story or if you were able to break it into sections with different points of view, the reader could experience the horror of the death and then feel uplifted when Mary Kay reacts to it.
BTW, I'd never apologize about bumming out a reader. Deep feelings, no matter what they are, are vicarious in fction. It's the way we learn to deal with them. Look at Stephen King. My guess is that he isn't a sadist trying to give people heart attacks. Readers assume that stories are stories even if the writer is more personally involved. Where would the world be without sad stories? But I don't think this is one, even if sad things happen. Mary Kay escapes ... this time at least. And that's a batman kind of story, a romance. We breath a sigh of relief and say, "Well, done Mary Kay. You made it."
Well done, Katie, you made it, too.
John
From: Malinov
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: 4 Mar 2003 08:28:51 -0800
Katie
Some of the writing, in particular the birthday scene, is simply outstanding. Both the pacing and the language work exceedingly well, drawing us into the performance and feeling the cuts and jabs of unsavory attention. I would eagerly buy a book with this level of writing.
The biggest problem I felt lay in pacing. Some of the jumps are too harsh and some of the scenes provide details that didn't pull me along. Vernae, it seems clear to me, is one of the most important characters in the story, but when she is introduced, no rapport is developed. We are told how Mary Kay feels, but not given the chance to feel for her ourselves. Many more words, I felt, should have been spent establishing this woman.
Then, having only just been introduced to the girl, I'm watching them make love. Frankly, I skimmed those paragraphs. Not really knowing her, I have no interest in seeing them together. Given her role, particulary as the story circles back to her, Vernae needs a few thousand more words.
Without that emotional backdrop to create cohesiveness, the story devolves into a series of related episodic tales. This is where it becomes obvious that the entire story simply moves too quickly. The story reads more like excerpts from a novel than a stand-alone. If you want to tell a big story, slow down and indulge yourself in every moment that has meaning. We're all afraid of boring our audience with tediously endless tales, but the truth is that when the writing is suffiencently skilled, a good reader wants the story to go on forever. You, Katie, have the skill to intrigue, fascinate and communicate. Don't rush. Take your time and tell us everything.
If this were my story, I would title it "Dancer." Not only is MK relating her dancing experience, it also implies the fluid motion of life's expressions, attractive and deliberate, improvisational and moving to survive. Beauty in living, even when the tale is tragic. I would not use a name, because nobody rises to the level of being named. I might title it "Vernae's Dance," if we put the necessary development into Vernae's character.
There are more games I would play with structure and language, creating some symbolic elemnents and expressive patterns. For example, we might decide that this is the story of MK's escape from the world of dancing. Escape then becomes a theme. Then I would go through the story and find ways to increase the desire to escape and highlight the difficulties of escape. I would try to find every place I could introduce language incorporating the trapped/escape dichotomy. I would analyze how MK is trapped and ultimately escapes and strengthen the elements of her character that cause her to be trapped and make her escape possible.
Telling your audience that the story is autobiographical reduces the impact of the story, by making the reader aware that there is more to the story than the words they are reading. All stories are autobiographical to the discerning reader. Being asked to consider the relationship of the author to the writing complicates the readers task, ripping away our suspension of disbelief so that we are relegated to being outside the story - I read it for information rather than allowing myself to fall into the role I am reading. Let the story stand alone and pull the writer backstage where she belongs, out of sight, pulling the strings. Your biographers will enjoy the task of relating your fiction to your non-fiction. Let them.
Returning for a moment to Vernae, the source of Mary Kay's strength appears to be the love she has shared with Mallory and Vernae. Since Mary Kay's escape depends on her inner strength, we need further development of the foundations of her strength. When preparing her escape, MK needs to expose the resources she is using. More time on her positive relationships will help us want her to escape and feel satisfied when she does.
First rate effort, Katie. Keep writing.
Malinov
From: Eye
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: 4 Mar 2003 12:02:19 -0800
katie wrote:
I'm interested in any ideas for improving the story. I also wonder if anyone has an idea for a title. I would like to use the name of a woman in some way. There are two possibilities, Mary Kay or Vernae. I don't think Vernae stands alone well since it's an unusual name. One of the ideas I've been kicking around is Mary Kay the Lap Dancer, but I'm not sure I like it.
The next point is the style I've used to write the story. I tend to be sparse on details and leave much to the reader to determine on his or her own. I plan on using the same style for the next four episodes which should finish off the story. I wonder if there are any suggestions specific to the way I wrote this story which I will try to carry over to the next episodes?
Finally, the story is very emotional and I wonder if I balanced the downside stuff with enough upside or lighter material to avoid bumming out the reader?
FishTank Guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
3) Try not to repeat!
Lap Dancer
By Katie McN
[email protected]
Copyright 2003 Katie McN
Hello all, and thanks for this story, Katie ...
First I'll say that this is good writing, good craft, and I like Alexis' suggestions about pacing paragraphs. That will add a lot of momentum to the story startup.
I've read Katie before, and see how she's sculpting here with the sparse style, 'bleak' has been mentioned and that's a good style for this piece, but I think I see it as sculpting away the narrative until the lean lines are really "in your face".
IOW, it works just fine for me.
The opening is sharp and moves into content right away. It works to set tone, and allows the narrator to 'feed the reader' a touch as the first-person account really gets going. One comment here is that MK's "need" for the fix is so underplayed as to be invisible. Maybe that would just get in the way of the story, but I felt it needed some description because of how intrinsic it is to the story - especially the beginning. Without that descript, I have less emotional contact with the protagonist. I understand the scene intellectually, but need more from the emotions of the protagonist.
Likewise, if there were more little bits of dialogue in the sex scene with Vernae, it would connect the longer descriptive paragraphs in more lively way. This same technique works extremely well in the bar scenes where MK dances for customers and dialogue keeps things zipping along.
First-person is a hard voice, but Katie seems to find it in this story. The dialogue moves well, and truly is some of the best stuff in the story. It's real, and it speeds the reading. I recommend some of that "urgency" in the narrative bridges between scenes. Again, this is only a pacing comment.
Generally, the balance of dark to light is more to dark, but this edginess leads one to want the next story ... there is something very 'unfinished' about the story as it stands. Yes, we know the protagonist is moving to something new, but we don't know how she really feels about it, or if she has the fortitude to make it work. I don't feel the protagonist is "transformed" at all by her experience, yet I think she must be, because I would be. There are not sufficient clues from the author, or so I felt and this may be desired as such. Here the "detached Raymond Chandler" style may work against the author.
I haven't kept track of positive vs constructive, but I think I'll enjoy reading the other segments in this story arc when Katie gets to them.
Again, thanks for sharing this personal story. .-) Eye
From: Gary Jordan
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: 04 Mar 2003 23:32:15 GMT
3. Try not to repeat.
Right. Sure.
2. Two Suggestions for Improvement:
Without repeating? Alexis beat me to the paragraph thing at the beginning (which was something I learned from Katie last week!) We obviously saw similar things in each others' writing that we missed in our own.
I don't need more details of the pain from Vernae's death when it happened - and I understand that more might be difficult in any case, since it's autobiographical. More of the feeling of numbness, maybe. If you feel up to it, let the pain out later, possibly after Silk's revelation. But be true to yourself. Show the pain when you felt it, if it doesn't hurt too much to do so.
1. Two Positive Comments
I really do believe shared pain is decreased - I hope you find it so.
Your story was as moving as any I've read recently, which is saying a lot!
Thank you for sharing, MK.
Gary Jordan
"Old submariners never die; they just wallow in sunken tubs."
<I>"This communicating of a man's self to his friend works two contrary effects, for it redoubleth joys, and cutteth griefs in half." - Francis Bacon, Essays </I>
From: Souvie
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 22:51:56 GMT
On Mon, 3 Mar 2003 08:07:15 -0500, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote:
FishTank Guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
3) Try not to repeat!
Complete FishTank guidelines can be found here: http://www.asstr.org/~Desdmona/FishTank/base/storyguide.html
Questions? Suggestions? Submissions? Direct them to: [email protected] or [email protected]
**************************
Lap Dancer
By Katie McN
[email protected]
Copyright 2003 Katie McN
I'd like to simply say, "What Alexis said," or "What Malinov said," but that wouldn't be fair.
This is the best story I've ever read by you, Katie. Even in its raw, still-flawed version here, it's the best. Yes, I like the Katie R. and Claudette stories, but that's different. This is the stuff that grabs your emotions by the balls and all you can do is hang on for the ride.
That was positive number #1. Positive #2 is that I felt like crying at the end. I hoped that she made it the rehab facility without Silk finding out about it - without him EVER finding out where she was. I hoped she'd get clean and stay clean. That she'd begin to heal after Vernae's death. Cause she's not healed, not yet, she's just going through the emotions.
Improvement #1 - I think there are maybe too many long paragraphs. They work, sometimes, but not all the time. Sometimes breaking something up into shorter sentences makes the words mroe powerful, more emotional.
Glad you finally got this all out, Katie, You've got tons more courage than I could ever have. :)
- Souvie
From: Romer
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 02:16:53 GMT
Hiya bud, long time no speak <g>
I've started redlining the copy, if you're interested drop me a line.
A tightly written piece. Well done!
Some solid comments in the preceding posts, but I wouldn't stray far from this draft. My first pass - I stumbled on the first page or so before getting into the flow of the story, thereafter it held pace, style and structure. Transitions were the only glaring problem for me.
I'm interested in any ideas for improving the story. I also wonder if anyone has an idea for a title. I would like to use the name of a woman in some way. There are two possibilities, Mary Kay or Vernae. I don't think Vernae stands alone well since it's an unusual name. One of the ideas I've been kicking around is Mary Kay the Lap Dancer, but I'm not sure I like it.
"Lap Dancer" Should draw quite a few hits from the unwary <g>
The next point is the style I've used to write the story. I tend to be sparse on details and leave much to the reader to determine on his or her own. I plan on using the same style for the next four episodes which should finish off the story. I wonder if there are any suggestions specific to the way I wrote this story which I will try to carry over to the next episodes?
The style is a refreshing change. Unless I am well off the mark on your intent, it reinforces the theme. As for continuing with the same style for the next four segments ...depends on the stories.
Finally, the story is very emotional and I wonder if I balanced the downside stuff with enough upside or lighter material to avoid bumming out the reader?
Not bummed. I found it thought provoking. A glimpse at the underbelly of society with a taste of realism (dark/light) that is well balanced. Now if it were Mary Poppins as the protagonist, the balance might need some adjustment. <g>
I made a lot of money selling our house, but had to use most of the money to pay Mallory's hospital bills. After all was done, I had about ten-thousand dollars and a classic 1964 Jaguar named Chester. I went off on a pilgrimage , driving Chester across the California- Arizona. Mallory loved songs by the Eagles and I decided to find out what they saw from that corner in Winslow. My mother never wanted to meet the woman I loved and I thought it was time to show Mallory's spirit the West Texas town where I grew up. Once Mallory pretended to get mad at me for flashing my tits at Mardi Gras and I took her memories to the same street corner in New Orleans and flashed an early- morning delivery guy. I went to Gallatin, Tennessee and visited Mallory's cousin. He said he'd get me a job and help with a place to stay. I left when he tried to put his hand down my blouse. I met our friends in New York City. We drank vodka and ate fish eggs in the Russian Tea Room. I went to Virginia Beach and remembered the day she laughed at the tiny waves that plinked against the sand. I did other things like getting drunk, smoking dope, doing ups, downs and some sideways if I couldn't find what I needed. There were many odd people on the road and I think I was one of them.
As has been noted, there is a lot of 'meat' here. To maintain the style and pace of the story I would not expand it or detail it. Instead, think meter/beat with a couple of paragraph breaks.
:I went to Gallatin, Tennessee to visit Mallory's cousin, he said he'd get me a job and help :with a place to stay - I left when he tried to put his hand down my blouse. I met our :friends in New York City - we drank vodka and ate fish eggs in the Russian Tea Room. I :went to Virginia Beach - and remembered the day she laughed at the tiny waves that plinked :against the sand.
You have brushed up against drugs as a refuge, but don't touch on the numbness, the void or the pocket of reality held behind the wall. A couple of sentences would clarify the theme.
A good read Katie. Thanks for sharing it.
Wolf
the earthlink address will be good for a few more weeks.
From: Wiseguy
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: 4 Mar 2003 20:23:16 -0800
Katie,
There's a lot going on here; no wonder there were several false starts.
Let me start out by throwing in thoughts on some of the other comments I've seen.
I stand with Malinov on the title: "Dancer" seems perfect. Not "Lap Dancer" because that's not all she does, and certainly not with a name prepended. Brevity here provides maximum dignity. And I wouldn't name it for Vernae because, important as Vernae is, this is really Mary Kay's story.
Alexis' thoughts on that crucial, tone-setting paragraph feel right to me as well. I think she's nailed the best approach for you.
On the issue of emotion at Vernae's death, I think you have it pegged well as it is. But since there's no early indication that it's anything other than an OD, you might want to play up the surprise/shock/betrayal/fear that MK must have felt when Silk semi-confessed to killing her.
Most of your characterizations are fine. The guys at the shoot, Martinez's thugs, the boss at the strip club ... those folks are all drawn, to my mind, appropriately for the parts they play. The one character I would like to see more developed is Vernae, as others have noted. She is so important, yet we see so little of her.
Okay, on to the format.
Positives:
- The tone you've established is very strong, and you enforce it and nurture it beautifully. MK's voice is consistent and her personality comes through strongly. This is never a problem with you anyway, but it needs to be said.
- It's extremely engaging. There's no way you can read the first page or so and not want to continue.
Improvement suggestions:
- The opening flashback doesn't work for me. I'd love to see this story open with, "There are lots of ways for a flashy blonde to make money in Tampa ..." I think that's a much stronger opening, as it establishes very quickly what this story is about and it sets up the important passage right after.
- The story is gripping and fluid in its narrative, but seems to run into a speed bump whenever there's an exchange of dialog. I had to look at it a few times to try and figure out why I get that sense, and I think I know what it is: the dialog has very little in the way of punctuation inside the sentences or supporting description. Without those critical clues as to how the lines are spoken, the words become wooden and the spell is weakened.
Let me try an example. Here's your dialog:
"What do you think you're going to do, Mary Kay?"
"I want to go back to California. I want to go home."
"You're not leaving. You work for me bitch. The world looks the same everywhere when you're on your back so you don't need to be going off to some other player. You saw what happened to Vernae."
"What are you saying, Silk?"
"She told me she was going away and showed me her plan. I couldn't let her go. She said I'd let her leave or else she'd put the cops on my ass. You got more questions?"
Now, let's make some minor punctuation changes and add some context between the lines:
- (begin)
Silk's eyes narrowed. "What do you think you're gonna do, Mary Kay?"
"I want to go back to California. I want to go home."
He stared at me hard, with his head still. "You're not leaving - you work for me, bitch. The world looks the same everywhere when you're on your back, so you don't need to be going off to some other player. You saw what happened to Vernae."
My guts got all twisted up inside me at his tone. "What are you saying, Silk?"
"She told me she was going away and showed me her plan. I told her I couldn't let her go, and she said I'd let her leave or else she'd put the cops on my ass." His dark, merciless eyes drilled down into mine. "You got any more questions?"
- - (end)
Doing something similar with the dialog in the Martinez scene would add a lot of texture and make it easier to distinguish the characters as they speak.
That's my 2 cents, anyhow. I know how special this piece is to you, and I have a pretty decent idea how much it took to put it out here in view. Be proud.
-wg
http://www.asstr.org/~Wiseguy
From: Bingain
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 06:02:12 GMT
Okay, Katie, you got me in, so here I am.
I hate Katie for writing such an intense, gloomy and stirring story. I was, like, a beholder in every scene, watching MK suffered and struggled, with my heart pined and gut churned. The story appeared very real to me.
The characters appeared lively to me even though I had not read the other stories in the MK series yet (which I will have to). I can picture Vernae very well in my head. I didn't get to feel the detailed appearance of Mary Kay but it actually didn't bother me. Even the non-principal characters stand out pretty well. The simple disclosure of Vernae's preparation to get away with MK added another dimension to her life, that was amazing.
Because I day dream a lot, the sparse on details doesn't bother me much. Actually I consider it a plus for telling the story so complete without going into every bit of details. I know, I probably will get my ass kicked badly, but I have a different feeling to most other people who provide feedbacks here. I personally feel the very detailed descriptions of the lap dancing job and film shooting are somehow on the edge of getting out of hands. They are too detailed compared to the overall story structure, and early on, I had a little hard time finding the track, where the story was leading me to. I personally prefer it either the entire story is down to every bit, or just as sparse overall.
I don't have a second suggestion for improvement, not right now, sorry.
I do have some personal view on Katie's questions:
TITLE:
I like the title "Lap Dancer" or any extensions of it. I prefer it to "Mary Kay" or "Vernae", neither tells much about the story. You may want to use the girl's name as title if the entire series follow the same naming system, but it doesn't appear so. And because both MK and Vernae are lap dancers, it would sound awkward to use "Vernae the Lap Dancer" or "MK the Lap Dancer".
GLOOMINESS:
The story is a gloomy one. It describes the downside of people and events, as well as tragic incidents. Some people don't like it, and you can hardly change their tastes even if you try to put in some humors or other flavors. I'd leave it like this. If you want to write a black comedy, you'll have to rewrite the entire book in a totally different style. It may not come out any better.
Just my two cents.
Bing (fully armored)
From: elle`attend
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: 6 Mar 2003 09:51:52 -0800
The few criticisms that I had to offer have already been touched on, so I'm going to just go ahead and break the rules on my very first posting here, and write what I felt about this piece.
This is a difficult work to critique, for a couple of reasons. First, because of the obvious pain involved in writing it; sometimes it's better not to let your audience know ahead of time just how personal a piece is, and how much of the author is invested in it. It can color the reader's opinion of it, and cause them to pull their punches, particularly when it is done as well as this, and strikes as many true notes as it did for me, and I suspect for a lot of other women.
The question of emotional content in writing has always been a quantitive, rather than a qualitive one for me. By that I mean that the KIND of emotional response that is elicited from the reader is less important than that an emotional connection is made AT ALL. I usually judge that connection by how surprised I am when I hit "pagedown" and find that there is no more "down" to page. With a story that doesn't reach out and involve me, I'm always amazed at how long it takes to get to the end. Quite often I never do. Here, I was shocked to reach the end so quickly. That's the definition of a page-turner in anybody's book.
I agree with many of the positive comments that have been made already. I particularly want to emphasize how the style that an author employs can actually be an integral part of the story itself. Mary Kay's emotional numbness, her disconnect, is perfectly mirrored in the spare, almost terse style that is employed throughout. This changes subtly, and perfectly, at the end, when she discovers a depth and texture to her relationship with Vernae that she herself had not even fully realized existed. It bookended perfectly with, and echoed, the more open, vulnerable tone at the beginning when she is reminiscing about her relationship with Mallory. For me, this qualifies as a very uplifting ending.
The idea of love, and loss, is not a particularly new one. What IS new, and arresting here is confronting what it can cost us to acknowledge this in a society that still essentially despises our love, and dismisses our pain; the first as unnatural, and the second as inconsequential, owing to the first. This is a very tricky subject to deal with, and Katie pulls it off beautifully, sketching it in quick, almost detached strokes, that at once let the reader feel the alienation at work on Mary Kay, while at the same time capturing perfectly the heartbreak that ensues when one is forced to deny their love, and their loss, and is not allowed the healing mercy of grief. Not because she cannot or does not WANT to grieve, but simply because no one wants to HEAR it.
The second challenge presented by the piece, for me, is a little more controversial, and a lot more personal - the idea of how sexually and emotionally stimulating fear and pain can be, and how disturbed most of us still are by this concept. For all of our pretense to sophistication and our well-developed senses of schadenfreude, we all still feel, at some level, that there must be something wrong with us - that we are somehow lacking something - for our sense of self, and love, to be so intimately tied to being hurt, both emotionally and physically. By ourselves, as well as by others. We're modern, liberated, intelligent 21st century women, damnit, and we're not supposed to get off on being abused! This neat little paradox has caused me more than one sleepless night, and I've long suspected I'm not alone in this respect. When I read something like this, I feel a certain sense of vindication, a kind of exaltation almost; if Mary Kay can survive this, and come out the other side whole, then maybe there's hope for the rest of us, too.
"I wouldn't say I was in love, but a lot was going on under the sheets."
That "lots" that was "going on under the sheets" might not be love�but then again, it just might be, too. After all, there were two people under those covers, and the person whose love really matters the most might just be the one who you see reflected in your lover's eyes.
Fabulous work, Katie. Way to go. I'll be looking forward to your next.
elle`attend
ps - this is my second attempt to post this, so if it suddenly shows up repeatedly, please understand that I'm not THAT in love with my own voice.
e`a
From: Desdmona
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 10:36:41 -0500
**************************
Lap Dancer
By Katie McN
[email protected]
Copyright 2003 Katie McN
Katie~
The overall tone of this story works really well. The emotionless or detached play-by-play of the sex acts give us a real feel for how MK must have had to turn herself off to what was going on in order to survive them. Mary Kay's lack of emotion really contrasts with the emotion a reader will feel when reading this story. It's heart wrenching to think of the things some people have to do in order to survive. I don't need to be told how MK felt when Ashley was abusing her. I could imagine how I would feel, how I would expect anyone would feel in such a situation. These harsh realities don't need to be flowered up with flamboyant prose. They're gritty and to the point just as they are.
However, I do think the exchanges with Vernae might be written a little differently. This is the part of MK's life that is tolerable. You might even say the relationship was a lifeline. So here is where I'd like to see more of MK's feelings. Show us how Vernae's touch is different. Show us how MK wasn't performing, but loving. Let us see the softer side. If the love making between Vernae and Mary Kay is told in the same way the rest of the sex in the story is told, then the reader can be left with wondering what makes this encounter different.
The first time women go to bed, they worry about doing things right. Sometimes there's too much talking, too much worry, too much thinking about pleasing the other person. After awhile those thoughts fade away. Love can get boring or love can be wonderful. Our sex was more than wonderful and seemed to get better each time we made love.
This paragraph at the end of the sex scene between MK and Vernae is a good start. It needs to be expanded, maybe even moved forward ahead of the sex.
It's very difficult to comment on an autobiographical story. If it were fiction, one could easily say this part doesn't work for me, or why don't you try inserting this, etc. But when the story is real, changing the facts isn't an option.
Don't misunderstand, there isn't anything I would change but there are places that need more explaining or better yet, showing. For instance, it's difficult to believe that a drug addict would be able to stash even $1000, let alone $21,000. It takes an astonishing amount of willpower for an addict, especially an addict, to hide such a large sum of money. And yet, Vernae did it. She's extremely rare. This story is missing glimpses that show her rarity. She deserves more playing time. In hindsight, there was probably evidence that she was doing something. Maybe Vernae came up with the cash to pay a bill even though she didn't work that day. Maybe she was never late on paying her bills. Maybe she came up with some good dope to keep Mary Kay from having to do something even more horrible to satisfy a need. Or maybe she dreamed out loud a time or two about getting away from the life they were in. I'm not suggesting making up anything, I'm suggesting thinking about the real things that happened and sprinkling them in along the way. I'm convinced there were clues that a person could only see in hindsight, because MK knew in her gut to look for something at the end of the story.
I think it was Malinov who said, in essence, that this story is too short, or it needs to take more time in the telling. I really agree. There are actually two stories interwoven here - There's "Mary Kay's" story and there' s "Vernae and Mary Kay's" story. The "Mary Kay" story is told heroically and with depth. The "Vernae and Mary Kay" story needs more fleshing out, especially at the end. The ending is too rushed. We have a thirty-page-story that has the climax and ending starting on page twenty-nine. MK's getaway seemed way too easy. Didn't Silk need some sort of proof besides, "Hey Silk, it's me, Mary Kay. I've decided to stay." Silk admits to murder, threatens Mary Kay, and then immediately agrees to let her go to Florida, all by herself? There had to be more to it, more deception, more fear. Up until that point, Silk has been written as an incredibly scary guy. The rush to the end breaks down that characterization.
On the other hand, the very last paragraph is especially poignant. MK's gotten away, there's hope, and yet we're still left with the feeling of "what next?" It's a wonderful way to leave the reader wanting more, and bringing us back to the next 3-4 installments.
Katie, it must have been painful to sit down and write this story, to put it all out on the table in such a way. I hope that it serves a purpose towards healing. Thank you very much for submitting it to the FishTank, and I hope its presence here as given you want you needed.
Des
Oops! I forgot about the title. "Dancer(s)" or "Lap Dancer" are both good choices. I think I prefer "Dancers" for all the physical and metaphorical reasons. "Mary Kay the Lap Dancer" reminds me of a title for a politically correct story book for children. Sort of like, "Heather and Her Two Mommies."
Oh, wait ... "Dancing Out of Darkness" Maybe?
From: PleaseCain
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: 06 Mar 2003 19:45:31 GMT
Due to the length, AOL downloaded a big glob of crunched text for me. I'm an idiot about these things. I'm bummed, because I missed all your technique, but I will comment on the part I got through.
Your character descriptions are killer, like about Martinez (not the ugliest man ...) and his bodyguard (his missing teeth; "the kind of nightmare that belonged in a dark alley"). So much personality there, like something by Elmore Leonard. The striptease too at the beginning is smooth, not mechanical at all.
My first suggestion is easy enough to remedy, but I remembered this also in your winter story: be careful using character's names in dialogue, because it can jar. Early on, Mary Kay twice says something like 'what do you want me to do, Ashley?'
Then, if I'm reading right, mention a transition from Virginia Beach to Tampa.
I'm really looking forward to seeing this once it's on the website. I like your writing.
Cain
From: elle`attend
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: 7 Mar 2003 07:05:38 -0800
"Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...
**************************
Lap Dancer
By Katie McN
[email protected]
Copyright 2003 Katie McN
However, I do think the exchanges with Vernae might be written a little differently. This is the part of MK's life that is tolerable. You might even say the relationship was a lifeline. So here is where I'd like to see more of MK's feelings.
I agree, and disagree with this point in re Vernae (by the way, I LOVE the name; reminds me of one of my favorite authors, Raymond Chandler).
Yes, I think that we should �see' a little more of Vernae, perhaps in the sense of an aside or two that shows in a little more depth the things that they share, that have brought them together. I'm not sure how you would accomplish this, though, other than with, as Desdemona suggests, a few internal references by MK, or a few lines of bantering dialogue that perhaps reveal a little more about the connection, and by inference Vernae.
In fact, this leads to the �No,' for me. I would NOT change or soften the relationship between these women until the end. These are two tough cookies, two survivors � so far, anyway. It's this common background of the horrors that they have lived through that forms the bond between them initially, in my mind. In this respect,they are really almost more like two men, swapping war stories to keep their own personal, internal darkness at bay for a little while. Or slugging each other in the arm as hard as they can, and diss'ing each other, to show that they're tough, and don't really need anyone. To get to the point that these two women have reached, one must develop a very hard shell indeed to present to the world.
It's difficult to believe that a drug addict would be able to stash even $1000, let alone $21,000. It takes an astonishing amount of willpower for an addict, especially an addict, to hide such a large sum of money. And yet, Vernae did it. She's extremely rare.
Yes, isn't she? For me, again, this is all a part of the revelation of the true nature of Vernae's character, and of their relationship that is revealed (hurriedly, I agree) at the end. Even at this point, it is difficult for Mary Kay to acknowledge the depth of feeling that existed between Vernae and herself. To me, she's still in denial, because of Mallory. It's a difficult breakthrough for her at the end, after having expended so much of herself to block acknowledging just this sort of emotional commitment again, following Mallory's death. In a way, I was a little surprised that Mary Kay didn't experience a bit more guilt at this point, about how her tough fa�ade had kept Vernae and herself from accepting, and comforting each other more.
Up until that point, Silk has been written as an incredibly scary guy. The rush to the end breaks down that characterization.
I very much agree with this, as well as the Vernae points. The problem is, as Malinov and Desdemona both point out, this story really cries out for a longer format. There is so much here, so much raw meat (forgive me!) that deserves more exposition. A tough thing for the author, who saw the story at this length, in this style, I think. Still, it's a wonderful dilemma for a writer; the audience clamoring for �more,' rather than �less!'
Parenthetically, isn't it fascinating how the most charming, sexy men are so often such nightmares when you get up close? Why are sociopaths so attractive to us, I wonder�hmm�
The more I read this story, the more impressed I am with it. The finished product, regardless of what Katie does with it, should be a wow.
elle`attend
After saying I wouldn't go there, here is my 2 cents plain: �Dancer.' Mallory, Ashley, Martinez, Silk, Vernae; they all had a go at �crushing her toes,' and �tearing her gown.'
But she's still dancing�
e`a
From: Bingain
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 17:03:47 GMT
"elle`attend" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
"Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...
However, I do think the exchanges with Vernae might be written a little differently. This is the part of MK's life that is tolerable. You might even say the relationship was a lifeline. So here is where I'd like to see more of MK's feelings.
I agree, and disagree with this point in re Vernae (by the way, I LOVE the name; reminds me of one of my favorite authors, Raymond Chandler).
Yes, I think that we should 'see' a little more of Vernae, perhaps in the sense of an aside or two that shows in a little more depth the things that they share, that have brought them together. I'm not sure how you would accomplish this, though, other than with, as Desdemona suggests, a few internal references by MK, or a few lines of bantering dialogue that perhaps reveal a little more about the connection, and by inference Vernae.
In fact, this leads to the 'No,' for me. I would NOT change or soften the relationship between these women until the end. These are two tough cookies, two survivors - so far, anyway. It's this common background of the horrors that they have lived through that forms the bond between them initially, in my mind. In this respect,they are really almost more like two men, swapping war stories to keep their own personal, internal darkness at bay for a little while. Or slugging each other in the arm as hard as they can, and diss'ing each other, to show that they're tough, and don't really need anyone. To get to the point that these two women have reached, one must develop a very hard shell indeed to present to the world.
The ultimate level of writing, as I tend to believe, is the ability to describe an incident or a character with the least amount of words (unless you sell your writings based on number of words). What I have seen so far from the story, I believe the author has been doing close to the summit.
The story has given me this impression: MK thinks she has a relationship with Vernae, and they are also close friends. MK has no clue how their lives, or the relationship, will be in future. Vernae knows they have a relationship, and she wants more, for both of them, for tomorrow. She loves MK dearly, and that is why she has been saving up for MK's part for the rehab. She could have gone to rehab by herself long ago if she didn't care for MK so much.
What made it so striking and touching is that the fact is realized after the death of Vernae. She appeared to be just a plain lap dancer before her death. She becomes a woman of flesh and blood, a woman we honor and adore, after MK discovered what she had been doing, and paying for it. It is a pity Vernae had told Silk about her project. She made a mistake in trusting someone in an environment where she should have trusted nobody.
The tragedy has also described an evil character extremely well without digging into his inner side. We have gotten used to stories and movies that describe the bad guys with terrifying looks, evil grins, torture you in an apparent way, etc. Martinez looks like that, only he is nothing when compared to Silk.
It is easy to write about characters who look the same inside as they are looked from the outside. In reality, people have different sides and different dimensions. In writing, it's a test to be able to write the different dimensions smoothly, realistically, and convincingly. I'm very convinced by what I've read from the story.
<snipped>
</snipped>
Up until that point, Silk has been written as an incredibly scary guy. The rush to the end breaks down that characterization.
I very much agree with this, as well as the Vernae points. The problem is, as Malinov and Desdemona both point out, this story really cries out for a longer format. There is so much here, so much raw meat (forgive me!) that deserves more exposition. A tough thing for the author, who saw the story at this length, in this style, I think. Still, it's a wonderful dilemma for a writer; the audience clamoring for 'more,' rather than 'less!'
When I read to the end, I said to myself, "Oh Gosh! Is this the end? Come on, give me more!" Then I closed the book and went on with my own work, while still thinking about the story. A flash hit me. The story was told in its entirety. I had in my mind nearly every detail (it could be many of the details were added by myself, unconsciously, which is the beauty of written literature, as compared to movies and the like). I'd have loved to see Silk being beaten to death or sent to jail for multiple life sentences, but the fact he got away from punishments added to the realism and the toughness of life.
Let's put it this way. We see a lot of Mr. Silk in our real lives (to different extent). If we're lucky enough, we'll find out who he is, and get away fast enough, leaving behind only tiny pieces of memories which are enough to put us in goose skin whenever we think about it. Those who don't find it out early enough don't get a chance to tell the disastrous stories (unless he's Arnold Schwarzenegger in a movie).
Counting 20 pennies.
Bing
Parenthetically, isn't it fascinating how the most charming, sexy men are so often such nightmares when you get up close? Why are sociopaths so attractive to us, I wonder.hmm.
The more I read this story, the more impressed I am with it. The finished product, regardless of what Katie does with it, should be a wow.
elle`attend
After saying I wouldn't go there, here is my 2 cents plain: 'Dancer.' Mallory, Ashley, Martinez, Silk, Vernae; they all had a go at 'crushing her toes,' and 'tearing her gown.'
But she's still dancing.
e`a
From: Conjugate
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 20:23:02 -0700
"Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
**************************
Lap Dancer
By Katie McN
[email protected]
Copyright 2003 Katie McN
Katie~
Big snip to get to:
MK's getaway
seemed way too easy. Didn't Silk need some sort of proof besides, "Hey Silk, it's me, Mary Kay. I've decided to stay." Silk admits to murder, threatens Mary Kay, and then immediately agrees to let her go to Florida, all by herself? There had to be more to it, more deception, more fear. Up until that point, Silk has been written as an incredibly scary guy. The rush to the end breaks down that characterization.
I thought about this, but only briefly as I went past that bit of the story. But remember, Silk probably sees MK as defeated, perhaps frightened, and probably penniless. He figures she's cowed, and has no alternative except to work for him. He may have been as ruthless with Vernae as he was because he could see signs she wasn't as addicted, and therefore as controllable and helpless, as MK. The story didn't say any of these things specifically. But when I wondered briefly about Silk's willingness to let MK go off unchaperoned those ideas seemed reasonable enough to quell my momentary wonderment as to his sincerity.
On the other hand, the very last paragraph is especially poignant. MK's gotten away, there's hope, and yet we're still left with the feeling of "what next?" It's a wonderful way to leave the reader wanting more, and bringing us back to the next 3-4 installments.
I agree with this conclusion.
Conjugate
From: Tesseract
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: 7 Mar 2003 07:30:28 -0800
[email protected] (PleaseCain) wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...
Due to the length, AOL downloaded a big glob of crunched text for me. I'm an idiot about these things. I'm bummed, because I missed all your technique, but I will comment on the part I got through.
Your character descriptions are killer, like about Martinez (not the ugliest man ...) and his bodyguard (his missing teeth; "the kind of nightmare that belonged in a dark alley"). So much personality there, like something by Elmore Leonard. The striptease too at the beginning is smooth, not mechanical at all.
My first suggestion is easy enough to remedy, but I remembered this also in your winter story: be careful using character's names in dialogue, because it can jar. Early on, Mary Kay twice says something like 'what do you want me to do, Ashley?'
Then, if I'm reading right, mention a transition from Virginia Beach to Tampa.
I'm really looking forward to seeing this once it's on the website. I like your writing.
Cain
You can find the whole story on google, and on the Fish Tank web site: http://www.asstr.org/~Desdmona/FishTank/lapdancer80/index.html
Tesseract
From: oosh
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 04:47:05 +0000 (UTC)
Lap Dancer
By Katie McN
I was impressed by the care that people have devoted to their comments so far. I'm being a real coward by keeping my own until late into the day!
I confess I don't entirely agree with those who wanted more visuals and scene-setting. Katie wrote:
The next point is the style I've used to write the story. I tend to be sparse on details and leave much to the reader to determine on his or her own.
I understand from this that Katie deliberately chose this way to tell the story, and so I've approached the story from the point of view that if she was sacrificing detail, it was in order to gain something else.
Of course more could be done to depict people's body language, and maybe make it easier for us to visualize the characters - the sky's the limit! But in the context of this very spare and effective style, clearly every point is meant to tell, and I have presumed that what guided Katie to include this, and omit that, was something that served the point of the story.
Nor could I agree with those who wanted more signposting, or who found the scene-changes jarring. The spareness and the raw transitions contributed to the pacing of the story; and where there was a patch of explanation or background, it gave the plot a chance to breathe. I think this is the sort of piece that needs to be read more than once, and the ordering of its parts best suits a second and subsequent read.
Like Elle, I was impressed by the emotional dynamic - warm in the Mallory passage (its richness so well emphasized by the arid context), and then gradually rising again toward the end. It's not so much that the climax arrives on the last page: it's more that the emotional pitch is high at the start, then plunged into an ice-bath, only to break the surface once more at the very end.
Why was Vernae not portrayed in greater depth? - Well, this is what struck me: Vernae and Chester get equal emphasis. Chester has a big role in this story (did this not strike anyone else?) because Chester is the symbol of the past. Mary Kay drives into Tampa in Chester, and it's Chester who eventually bears her away to safety. While Vernae is quietly saving her money for the rehab that will get her and Mary Kay out of their predicament, Mary Kay saves her money for Chester - her one and only expensive luxury (the coke being presumably a necessity). Maybe the balance between Vernae and Chester is expressive of something worth preserving in this story.
Although it's obviously a tribute to Vernae, I don't read this piece as a eulogy written with the force of hindsight. Instead we see Vernae, encouraged by her love for Mary Kay, trying to reach out and grasp a better world for them both, and paying the ultimate price. In return, Katie is reaching back to Vernae and the world they once shared, and reliving it as the person she then was - too scarred by grief to risk affection, unsure of Vernae's motives, sure only of the readiness of the world to exploit her, and its indifference to her unbearable suffering. In revisiting that world, Katie too has paid a price. This is not an armchair tribute.
Suggestions? It did strike me that in the first humiliation scene (involving Martinez and Ashley) we could hear more of the reaction of the onlookers to Ashley's outrageous suggestions, without it impacting on the glacial detachment of the narrator. Whether it would be a good idea to turn this screw one more notch or not, I don't know - but Katie will.
As to the title: I liked the direction Malinov was taking. My thought was "Ransom Paid"; but titles are a very personal thing, and never more so than here.
O.
From: flibinite
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: 6 Mar 2003 21:11:24 -0800
Katie -
Well, once again it seems as if I am the last one to get on the train, but I will try to say a couple of things that maybe no one else has. Forgive any incorrect assumptions I may be making here.
Positives -
Making a liar of myself already, as it has already been said many times, but I found the terse, almost emotionless writing style to be perfectly suited for the life that Mary Kay had found herself drawn into, or, more precisely, had allowed herself to be drawn into. In that regard, the story itself was a revelation to me. Being only 23 years old myself, I have led an extremely sheltered life, never having (knock on wood) ANYONE I felt rather close to, emotionally tied to, ever die on me. I KNOW there are people who have gone through what Mary Kay did, who live the life that she did, but your story helped me to feel it, to feel what it must be like to do things so intimate, so ultimately personal, just for money ...to live such a flat and almost out-of-body existence, simply because living it any other way would be totally untenable and completely self-destructive. As it was, the painful acceptance and emotional detachment of having to live like that was a palpaple thing to me, and the style with which your story was written was a major ingredient in allowing me to see that, hopefully, in somewhat the same light as Mary Kay did.
Note: I've always found it funny that the first-person POV, which one would think would be the most involving, the most heartfelt of writing styles, is also the one most functional for showing aloofment, disengagement, cold, calculating detachment, as well.
Another positive is that it WAS stated that this was auto-biographical in nature, as I disagree with one of the posters who felt the story would best be left to it's own devices, the author more hidden from the reader. "Lap Dancer", as written, could not have worked (at least for me), if I could not have held onto the "lifeline" of knowing, "HEY ...this is true, this actually happened to someone!", else the whole piece slip into a less believable, less personally involving tale of a woman on the ropes. I do not think it would have carried a third of the weight it did, if I hadn't been so able to fully realize that these events were REAL, that they hit and affected a real human being, a person that I could truly feel close to and empathize with, and ultimately, triumph with. I'm a sucker for a hopeful ending, too, btw, and yours helped make the story less painful, more uplifting.
Negatives -
I think you should have made a more definitive statement that readers should try to read, at least, "Mallory" first. I luckily had, but many might not have, and. while this is fine as a standalone piece to be sure, a better understanding of what the loss of Mallory meant to Mary Kay would have given the reader a greater understanding of the whys and wherefores of who she was, and why she had "fallen" the way that she had. You did a great job of trying to show that earlier on, Katie, but having read "Mallory" myself, I know that everyone else would have benefitted from reading it first, as well.
I had some other negatives to speak to, until something finally occurred to me. I was going to say, like many others, that Vernae's part in this story should have been embellished, that more emphasis and description should have been lavished on their relationship, on the type of woman that she was deep down, and even on her funeral, all of which I thought were somewhat short-shrifted upon my first reading. I was even going to suggest, if it hadn't been already, that your story should have been titled "Vernae's Gift" or "The Gift of Vernae", as that, in the end, may be what saved Mary Kay, and gave her to us in all her glory. That title, though, presupposes that you actually had played her part up stronger in the story, given it a bit more definition and heft.
But then it dawned on me, and this is where my apology for misassumptions comes to fore, that maybe you wrote about Vernae EXACTLY as you saw her, exactly as Mary Kay felt about her, that your protagonist was not THAT close to Vernae, that she was simply a warm, soft port in a storm for her, a person to literally hang onto, rather than someone she felt even a percentage as strongly about as she did for Mallory. Maybe expanding the description of their relationship, the type of woman that she was deep down, and even her funeral, would be a misstatement of Mary Kay's true depth of commitment to Vernae, her true sense of lost at her death, and would thus turn the story into a fiction, rather than the reality that it was for me, and perhaps, for you. I tend to be very Freudian, and believe that words MEAN things, and that if you had felt more deeply about Mary Kay's relationship with Vernae, then THAT is what you would have written, and that all the follow-up postings to your story that make mention, as "I" was going to, that you should have hit the Vernae's portion harder, are missing the point, or are make erroneous assumptions, based on the fact that the murdered woman was, in a manner of speaking, Mary Kay's savior, and as such, deserved a stronger, more pantheonistically written "ode" to her life and times with Mary Kay.
This story obviously came, and courageously so, from your gut, Katie, and I think I would be assuming way too much to think that your gut wasn't telling the truth of your true feelings.
I think I would have called it, "To Vernae, With Thanks ..."
An engrossing, intelligent, and moving story, Katie. Congratulations, and best wishes as you keep on keeping on ...
Yours, Jo
From: Poison Ivan
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 01:34:22 -0500
This is a good story, Katie. Rather than reiterate what everyone else has said better than I could, I'll just dive into the guts of the Fish Tank.
I liked the stripclub parts. The way the cutomers acted, the attitude of Mary Kay towards the customers, the even the physical descriptions of the stage and building. You say a lot about the surroundings and the people in just a few sharp paragraphs. One of my faves:
Guys who come to strip clubs during the day aren't as loud and boisterous as their night-time counter parts. A lot of them are drunks who pretend they are checking out the babes while they're getting wrecked. Some guys are addicted to the scene. There are other reasons, but I didn't care much what they were as long as no one ran out of money.
I really liked the porno shoot, too. It provided a small amount of comic relief to a story that could have been too heavy if it continued on without a break.
The biggest problem for me was there are a lot of tiny half-problems. Any one of them by themselves would hardly be worth mentioning, but eventually the weight of them all builds up. The story deserves more polish than it has now. (Not that "polish" is the right word, given the subject matter and style!) Just an example:
I pulled my dress up the length of my thigh until a flash of red was visible between my legs. As soon as I heard some guy shout out, I knew they were seeing my undies.
Which is OK, really, except I wondered, the flash of red was visible by whom? By Mary Kay? Or by the crowd? If the crowd, how does the narrator know what someone else sees? Of course you then go on to explain it, so it becomes clear. But then why bother with the flash of red bit? Why not just:
I pulled my dress up the length of my thigh. I heard some guy shout out, and I knew they were seeing my red undies.
Example 2:
"You really seem to like this. Do you want some more?"
She didn't wait for my response. She laughed and started in again.
Why say, "She didn't wait for my response"? As description in the story, it isn't necessary. As pace and rhythm to the prose, it doesn't add much. To my ears, it has a slight awkwardness to it. Can the sentence be cut completely? Can it be rephrased to be more Mary Kay-centric? "Before I could respond, she laughed and started in again." Can you add a detail to make it more important? "I opened my mouth to respond, but she didn't wait. She just laughed and started in again."
Like I said, both of these things are really minor.
As a special bonus, I want to disagree slightly with something others have said about the road-trip paragraph. I don't think the paragraph is too long. The problem isn't one of length, it's one of rhythm. Every adventure is explained in one sentence except the Tennessee bit, which takes three sentences. The Tennessee thing messes up the rhythm of the list. I think you either need to squeeze Gallatin down to one sentence, or you need to break up the paragraph like others have suggested. Or you could even do both.
It's a good story, Katie. And with these experiences you can draw on, you have a lifetime of stories to tell. Thanks for bringing it to The Fish Tank!
Poison Ivan
From: Tesseract
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: 7 Mar 2003 08:05:20 -0800
"Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...
Lap Dancer
By Katie McN
[email protected]
Copyright 2003 Katie McN
Katie:
I'll start by responding to something you said in a different thread.
You have many fans here in ASSD that often sing your praises. So any regular reader in ASSD, even those that are not in your usual audience, would jump at the chance to read your contribution to the Fish Tank, if only to see if you live up to your reputation.
This story is longer than most FT offerings so of course it would take a bit longer (or quite a bit longer) for people to read it. It's no surprise that Jeff responded first; not everyone reads as fast as he does. By now your fears should have been allayed. A lot of people have offered their opinions, including some of the best writers that hang out in ASSD.
I can't match them with their insightful comments but I'll give it a shot.
This is not a sex story. It isn't even about sex though sex plays a part. This is a very emotional story about salvation. It's depressing but it does give the emotions a roller coaster ride with some highs along the way.
The strip tease at the beginning was very sexy until Ashley made her additional demands. The sexiness evaporated for those of us that don't find humiliation sexy.
I also found the movie scene quite funny. Somebody else mentioned that it was dark but I didn't see it that way.
And there is the bright note at the end.
Not evey story has to be upbeat but evey good story should make an emtional connection with the reader. Yours does this very well.
I noted a few things as I was reading.
and wanted to be there forever. I {threw} her ashes into the Pacific and
I think a more reverent word would be more appropriate here. Maybe 'scattered' or 'cast' or 'I laid her ashes to rest in the Pacific' or ....
'Threw' sounds like she is disgusted with the whole thing and glad to get rid of it. If this is what you really meant the rest of that section doesn't support it.
went off on a pilgrimage , driving Chester across the California- Arizona. Mallory loved songs by the Eagles and I decided to find out
I was going to ask the California-Arizona what but Alexis beat me to it so I won't.
"Wait a minute, maybe this can be business and pleasure." I stood there waiting while she whispered something in his ear and watched his expression changed from pissed-off to happy.
I'm not sure who said that. Was it MK or Ashley? Some thought says it is Ashley but I had to think about it for a bit. Part of the problem could be that as soon as the quote ends 'I' shows up.
I was next to her chair when she started up again. This time she
This is the first time (unless I missed it) that I know Ashley is sitting down. You may want to sit her down a bit earlier as that changes the scene a bit.
kisses and covered her face and neck and shoulders {with presents from my lips.} Her hands were busy under the covers and seemed to find all
Not every sentence can be a work of art. They have real work to do; they have a story to tell. But occasionally you do have a delightful phrase. For some reason I really liked this one.
"Hey Mary Kay, how's my little actress?" {He didn't know it was ex- actress, but that didn't seem important to me at the time.}
This is obvious foreshadowing but by the time I finished the story I had to think a bit to figure out just what. This isn't a plus or a minus, just a comment.
There are three or four typos which I'll leave as a exercise for your editor.
<note to Desdmona> Should the admonition to authors not to comment untill the end of the week apply to their editors? </note>
I liked Lap Dancer as a title when I read it. I liked it even more after reading Alexis' analysis of it.
If you really want to change it you could call it Vernae; if you rename A Letter to Vanessa to just Vanessa it could become a signature for stories in this series. You could also call it Vernae's Gift or Vernae's Dream.
Speaking of other comments, someone suggested titling the sections. I don;t think that's a good idea; it would just clutter up the story. You do want to mark the sections though. For print or html may I suggest a large (two lines high) initial to start each section? That should be sufficient.
Overall this is a very good story and we're just talking about how to go from 9.8 to 9.9 (think figure skating, not SoL).
Tesseract
From: wizard
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: 7 Mar 2003 12:30:45 -0800
"I don't got to do nothing, bitch. You the dumb cunt who couldn't get her ass out of bed and now you got no job. Hey, it's not my fucking problem, you know what I mean?"
"You was all right when you was only chipping, Mary Kay, but now you're too fucking high maintenance and you sure ain't no fun."
When I arrived from Los Angeles, I'd been on the road for months trying to forget the person I left behind. Someone who took three years to die. Someone who only cried once or twice, not like me who cried every time I was alone. When she couldn't work, I stopped, too. When she went to the hospital, I spent my waking hours at her side. Our attorney gave me the paper she signed and said a hospital might let me make a decision if she needed some help. When the doctor said she was brain dead I was strong and knew what I had to do. She loved the ocean and wanted to be there forever. I threw her ashes into the Pacific and when I got back home I wasn't strong anymore.
"Ashley thinks I should help you out, Mary Kay. Something to get you back on your feet. So if I help you, I know you won't mind doing something for me. Yah, you can be the entertainment and if you do good I give you some shit to keep you going a couple days; you know what I mean, chica."
My hands moved slowly on my breasts, across my tummy, over my hips and down my legs. I could look sexy even if I didn't feel that way. The people in the crowd were getting into my dance and I heard the same lewd remarks I heard at the club where I worked."
I pulled my dress up the length of my thigh until a flash of red was visible between my legs. As soon as I heard some guy shout out, I knew they were seeing my undies. I let the dress fall and made them wait. The crowd went wild when I bent over, arched my back and moved my ass real slow. Most of the guys were Latinos and let me know they liked what I was doing.
I straightened up and let my new fans watch me pull the zipper down the back of my dress. By the time my zipper was opened to my butt, the crowd could see I wasn't wearing a bra. I turned around and instead of dropping my top, I held it up with my hand and pulled my arm out of one sleeve. When it was free, I did the same with the other arm. I was holding the front of my dress up by squeezing my breasts and pretending I was turned-on. I let my audience check out the sides of my breasts first and moved my hands down until they could see the rose color that marked the top of my nipples. I could feel the anticipation as I touched and caressed myself. I teased the front of my dress until my tits were almost on display. I was sure everyone was watching to see when I'd show my nipples. The crowd cheered when I let the front fall down to my hips. My red thong was visible and the audience encouraged me to take it all off.
Well there are just too many parts to leave on here, but I would say
the following
1) The story was a real turn on and kept my interest because it
sounded real. Reality is what makes a story of this type interesting.
Everyone can imagine. Katie lived this either in real life or in her
mind it was real.
2) It was interesting the way that she kept you wanting to see what
would happen next, I mean the flow of different feelings were so many
I couldn't stop.
Only thing I would like to see more of is detail in the sexual areas. Even though there is enough to keep my interest. I think Katie has the way of making her thoughts come to the surface. I hope to see more I like the longer stories as they keep you going. This one was a roller coaster of ups and downs that made me read faster and faster to see what happened next. Great job. Wizard
From: Katie McN
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 19:24:13 GMT
Hi Everyone!
Once again the results of the Fishtank are far beyond my expectations. Twenty-four people took time to comment on-line, seven others sent their comments directly to me and a number of others sent notes and had nice things to say about the story without literary criticism. The quality of analyses and suggestions are amazing. I feel very loved and thankful that so many of my friends were willing to join in, and I'm humbled that authors who I respect and look up to would provide me with such valuable input.
Desdmona, I've said on a number of occasions that the Fishtank is the best thing to happen on ASSD in support of writers. I continue to think this. There is benefit from submitting a story and getting input from so many. There is also substantial value for the person who comments. We can learn by helping others and I feel any effort I've made to help others has been paid back many times over. The format is easy enough so everyone can participate so we have a win-win-win situation. Thank you, Des. By the way, the most difficult episode of the Mary Kay series has yet to be written. It has challenging content and I feel I need to try a another non-standard writing technique to tell the story as I did here so I will need as much help as I can get to "do it right". Can I sign "Mother and Daughter" up for Fishtank story #100?? ;-)
There are various reasons why people don't want to post stories to ASSD. I understand, but feel bad that these good ideas can't be shared with the group although I'm thankful for those of you who decided to send me your thoughts directly.
There is value for everyone when we share comments and I want to thank the following people who were willing to do this:
Alexis, Altan, Bing, Conjugate, Desdmona, elle'Attend EyeOfSerpent, Gary, Iago, Jeff, Jim Butterfield, Joben johndear, Kenny, Malinov, Oosh, PeeJ PleaseCain, Poison Ivan, Souvie, Tesseract Wiseguy, Wizard, Wolf
I'm in the process of sending personal notes to all of you.
Story content is not the most important aspect in fiction writing. There are only a handful of story ideas and a limited number of ways these can be presented. How the story is written is a far more significant factor than content when trying to interest the reader. There is a "usual" way to write a short story. The standard method can be varied, but when one deviates too far from the norm, there is a big chance the story will fail. I used writing style to portray some of the story emotion as some of you noted in your comments. Generally, when I write I try to use only those words necessary to get across my points and don't add the ruffles and flourishes that others are so adept at presenting. This story may be an extreme example of minimalist style. I was very worried that I didn't carry it off even after my editor, PeeJ, indicated my efforts worked for him.
The techniques used for the story required cutting anything the reader could figure out on his or her own. In this case, I knew too much about the subject matter and failed to convey some background information that could make the story more understandable to people who haven't spent time in the gutter of life. In addition, there was a potential problem that if I revealed all I knew about the life it could detract from the story because there is the distinct possibility that none of the characters would come across as people the reader would care about. I'll try to explain.
Addiction is very isolating. Consider that a person has allowed him or herself to get in a position where the main purpose in life is to use a very expense substance to alter reality in some way. Altered reality is not shared even when people do drugs together. Addicts try to keep a lot of things secret. Revealing basic things like the amount drugs a person might have, how much money a person has, who is selling the best stuff and a variety of other "in the life" details are closely held. If not, a person stands a good chance of being robbed, beaten or developing "new friends" who demand a share of what a person has. The stakes are too high for an addict to do this.
There is a stigma associated with all aspects of sex worker activity. When I was young, girls talked about when it was right to kiss and how long to wait to progress from kissing to touching to fucking. Being too obvious, moving too fast and so many other things could result in a girl being called a slut. Sometimes just having tits bigger than most or looking a little different was enough to gain the slut designation even when a girl wasn't active. Imagine then how girls feel who get into the sex worker life. Also, since society considers them to be scum, there are many who think it's just fine to treat them as such.
The bottom line for sex workers is that the people who get into this life almost always bring a lot of negative baggage along with them. Typical of the girls in this line of work is a background where they have been molested as a child, raped one or more times, been in abusive relationships and may be trying to mentally hide via alcoholism or drug addiction.
The class of woman who would consider a lap dancer job is not made up of every woman in the world and so we don't always find that the participants are beautiful, physically attractive or glamorous. The person responsible for making sure there are enough girls working has to select from the available pool.
It wouldn't add much to the story to show the reader a lot of detail about ordinary looking girls, going through the motions and who try to extract money from the drunks who are sitting around the stage.
A number of people thought there was a love story. The narrator said there wasn't, but I guess not everyone believed her although Joben seems to understand as described in her post in this thread.
Addicts have alliances. They might call these relationships love affairs, but in the end it's every person for him or herself. Mary Kay and Vernae were both still very attractive and weren't beat down so much by the life that they couldn't hustle the customers at the club or those in the hotel room. They could live together without much fear that the other person would steal drugs or money. However, they both had been around long enough to know that it doesn't take much failure before bad things can happen.
The economics of the situation are interesting. Addicts don't decide to get hooked. Very often women are offered drugs by guys who want to control them. If the woman keeps going with a drug, addiction follows and then she is faced with raising a continuing stream of money to pay for her needs. The drug changes the way the person thinks until getting the drug is the primary focus and everything else is secondary. This includes prohibitions on activities. The typical woman could not imagine taking off her clothes and sitting on the lap of some disgusting person who gets to fondle and verbally abuse her. An addict realizes this is a way to get extra money which is needed to support the habit. At some point it's possible to pretend that sex work is only a job and the things the girl does are meaningless.
A girl who is reasonably good looking and who is willing to do what is allowed in a given club plus a little more when she thinks she can get away from it can make between $200 to $400 a day. Just like every other profession there are a few who make a lot more, but it's more reasonable to look at the typical case. The girl only works 3 or 4 days a week and ends up with a net $1000 or so for her efforts. The typical deal is for the girl to pay a per hour fee to the club which reduces the potential and a few taxes on part of her earnings. She also has to buy the lingerie she wears when she works, and various upkeep costs such as make-up, hair and so forth. A coke addict can maintain at around $100 a day. Other expenses are paid from the remainder. What does this mean?
An attractive girl can make enough money dancing to pay for a full blown drug habit. She will not be diving home from the club in a flashy car and home won't be an expensive house with a big monthly payment. The primary expense will be drugs and nothing else matters so driving an old car and living in a shabby apartment are unimportant.
Once again showing these things don't add to the story. Describing the drab, one bedroom apartment where Vernae and Mary Kay lived would not advance the story. It would be one more depressing feature and might change the story from "realistic" to melodramatic.
Girls in the life are always talking about cleaning up and getting out of it. They frequently start saving money for a rehab, trip home or whatever they think might do the job. As mentioned above, it's never a good idea to let people know that there is extra money around since it could be taken away by force or stealth.
If a girl is able to work as a lap dancer and also interested in doing tricks on the side, she can start saving money for one of the plans mentioned above. The amounts of money mentioned in the story are realistic for an attractive girl working hotels in a place like Tampa or another medium to large city. It's common for pimps to pay small kickbacks to hotel workers for giving out the phone number for his "escort" service. Guys know the bellman will more than likely be able to fix them up with such a number. Since most of the customers are businessmen who are working away from home, the busy days are Sunday through Thursday. Three dates a night are very possible under the circumstances. A girl could do her two weekend and one weekday shifts at a dancing place and work the other nights going to hotels.
It's also possible to make dates at the club where the girl dances, but this usually is a very bad idea. The undercover police like to make this sort of offer since they can sit all night drinking beer and getting lap danced without having to make the bust until later. They get to write up the club and the girl so it's not just a simple prostitution bust. Another possibility is that a girl goes off with a lap dancing customer and discovers that all the guys he was with at the club show up for a gang bang that frequently results in pain and usually doesn't make her any money. The justification for the later event is that the girl owes it to them since they spent so much money on her at the club.
So consider if a girl was willing to work three shifts dancing to cover drugs and all other expenses, and she was also willing to work three nights doing hotel out-calls, she could save $3000 a week. It would only take 7 weeks to get to $21000.
Getting large sums of money together is not the problem for an attractive girl who is willing to do anything. Vernae might have been able to do it even faster than mentioned above. The problem comes in when the person is faced with options.
The search is for drugs and a large sum of money gives a false sense of security. Having to face up to going to work when there is enough money around to cover needs can result in the girl calling in sick a lot and getting fired. Mary Kay was in that situation at the start of the story and ran out of money and was too strung out to get another dancing job.
An addict can almost always remember his or her "best" high. This might be a real or imagined memory, but it seems real and is never achieved again. More and more drugs are used in an attempt to get back to what was so good at the start. Sometimes a person gets a lot of money together and decides to binge in an attempt to recapture the feeling. This can sometimes result in overdose and always results in the expenditure of a lot of money and could involve other people so expense is even greater.
Not going to work and bingeing are two ways the person spends her savings and ends up in an even worse state.
Addicts also keep track of each other. If someone appears prosperous because he or she seems to be able to do more drugs that usual, it is noticed and might cause theft, robbery and other things that result in savings disappearing.
Bottom line here is that both women in the story could raise the amount of money that was mentioned and had done so at various times. There are too many pitfalls along the way for women in this position to be able to move forward with their plans. When they do whatever they think might help, they often fail to understand that the underlying cause has to be worked on and if not, they will be back in the life in a short period of time. Girls leave and return all the time.
Successful pimps have no respect for the women they control. There are many ways for them to work their game, but in the end it's the same. They get a girl to join their stable and then never want her to leave. The girl is going to give up 50% of the money she makes in the situation described in the story, pay all her own expenses, put up with the abuse, suffer the beatings while all the time aging until her rates get lower and she eventually finds herself working in other places for much less money.
When a girl says she is going to leave, the pimp gets very nervous. Losing the money is one thing, but the chance that the girl will go to the police or tell someone who will go to the police is high risk. A girl might get a small fine and probation for a conviction for prostitution, or she might even get off by giving a policeman a quick blow-job. A pimp will almost always go to jail for some period of time and when he gets out, he will more than likely be starting over since his stable will have evaporated.
Now that I've given some background, I'll explain about some of the things that were confusing in the story. I feel I have to do something about these problems as explained below, but thought you might like to know why I didn't cover them in the story. I forgot that most people would not know what I mention above.
Mary Kay spends all her time in the club, finding drugs, doing mundane things or in her apartment. None of the places she goes are in any way glamorous or interesting so it is unlikely she would do anymore than black out these places and not think about them at all.
I've already explained the economics so the thought that Vernae had a lot of money is not exceptional. Hiding it even from Mary Kay is typical of an addict since she knows the other person might steal it or tell someone else who would steal it. This probably was not the first time Vernae had built up a fund and could have easily failed to use it for its intended purposes. There is nothing in the story that says she would have spent the money for her and Mary Kay's rehab.
Pimps understand their business very well. They know how much money a girl makes and how much she spends in situations like the one Mary Kay and Vernae were in. Vernae had been working for Silk for some time and he would get the feeling that she was not spending her money for "approved" things. It would not be a big deal at first because he would know that hookers have plans all the time that fail. When she seemed to persist, he would confront her in some way. Her telling him she wanted to go to a rehab would come from a duress situation more than likely. He would guess she had money and accuse her of holding out. He might slap her around and she might fight back and perhaps say she wanted to get off drugs. This is not in the best interest of the pimp. He could demand her money and she might threaten the police out of desperation. The result could be death for the hooker which would be set up by the pimp to look like an overdose. Often the pimp is the one providing drugs and he could change the quality and so cause the overdose. Overdose is hardly ever reviewed when a hard core user is involved so we have the perfect crime situation. The other girls in the stable understand what happened and fear takes over.
There is so much death, sickness and suffering for girls in the sex worked/drug addict life that they sometimes "get used to it". As hard as it may seem to those not familiar with things, these situations might turn out to be one day wonders and then the person is forgotten. The search for drugs goes on. The risks are know to all. Sometimes people are considered lucky to be dead instead of going through the perils of addiction.
Silk would have no way to know that Mary Kay had enough money to go to a rehab or do whatever else it was she had in mind since he would also be monitoring her spending habits. Her finding Vernae's hidden money would not occur to him since he would figure Mary Kay to spend anything of Vernae's as soon as she found it.
It would not seem unusual for Mary to use his place to get it together under these circumstances. First, it is likely that she would have binge d under the circumstances and be a mess. Second, she would want him to make some gesture to show he "cared" for her to justify her continuing to work for him and he would be willing to do it. He would not know that she figured out he killed Vernae or if he did, he would be aware that many people in the life would be able to continue on without caring all that much. The behavior shown in the story is typical. You would hate all the characters if I showed this in detail.
I hope I've provided enough information to explain some of the logic points in the story. I also appreciate that these were brought up since they indicate places I need to work on so that other readers won't have the same problems.
PeeJ and I starting working on the story revision as soon as the story was posted with email flying back and forth all week. There are two threads. First, one set of suggestions leads to a much larger story. I'm not certain that a novel based on what I posted would be something I'd want to write or that many would want to read it in the style of this story. However, the input on strengths and weaknesses of the story do help in the novel planning we are doing for a story that covers a much larger period of time. I now know the areas of sex worker life that need more explanation and detail for the typical reader.
Improving the short story requires "tweaking" in our opinion. This must be carefully done or else we'll end up with a make shift story that fails on every count. This is always the risk with a non-standard story technique. We are going over every suggestion and trying to see how the story can be improved based on this input. We know that the opening has to change. This will help with the birthday party story. We also know that there need to be additional sentences to give clues to various things that are not obvious to the reader. We don't know what they are yet, but this is the approach for the story revision.
I don't know how long it will take to make the revisions. I'll post a Spot when the story is ready to see the light of day.
I want to thank everyone for their wonderful help and to encourage people to join in on the Fishtank process. Each time I do, I feel my abilities are enhanced. It's not just one story, but everything I'll write in the future that benefits.
xxx,
It's Me! Katie McN
<[email protected]>
Read My Stories at:
www.katie-mcn.com
From: Altan
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 01:40:41 GMT
On Sat, 08 Mar 2003 19:24:13 GMT, Katie McN <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Everyone!
Hi Katie,
I'm glad that you found our comments useful.
There is one more comment I wanted to make, a thing that has been going through my head since I read your story, but I wasn't quite sure how to put it. In fact, I started to respond to HyperTesseract's post, but deleted my response because I couldn't write it down properly.
HyperTesseract said, "This is not a sex story." I think he is right. There is quite a lot of sex in this story, but only part of it contributes to the actual story, I guess the rest of it is to have it fit in the format of "on-line sex stories."
I have to wonder what would happen if you wrote this as a "mainstream" short story rather than a sex story. Would it still work? I wonder ... I don't know if you have any desire to go that route, but it would surprise me if you could not make it work if you wanted to ...
Just a little thought that may not have come to you ...
Looking forward to the version 2.0 of this Lap Dancer :-)
A.
http://www.asstr.org/~altan/
From: Katie McN
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 03:27:00 GMT
Hi Altan <[email protected]>,
On Sun, 9 Mar 2003 01:40:41 GMT I noticed your interesting post:
On Sat, 08 Mar 2003 19:24:13 GMT, Katie McN <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Everyone!
Hi Katie,
I'm glad that you found our comments useful.
There is one more comment I wanted to make, a thing that has been going through my head since I read your story, but I wasn't quite sure how to put it. In fact, I started to respond to HyperTesseract's post, but deleted my response because I couldn't write it down properly.
HyperTesseract said, "This is not a sex story." I think he is right. There is quite a lot of sex in this story, but only part of it contributes to the actual story, I guess the rest of it is to have it fit in the format of "on-line sex stories."
Sex stories are in the eye of the beholder.
Do you consider stories with Best or Pedo sex stories? I feel the subject matter of those stories is sick and warped. In no way do they represent erotica as I understand it. I've read my share of stories in both categories because I think an author needs to understand the genre he or she writes in and the only way to do this is to read from every category. I've also talked to some of the Best and Pedo authors to get an understanding about what is expected by the readers of their stories. I've commented to some of these authors on their techniques and abilities. However, I've yet to read a story in either category that stimulated any emotion except disgust.
As it happens I've received several email from women who love the humiliation section that starts Lap Dancer with details about how turned on they got imagining they are Mary Kay. I received one complaint from a person who wanted me to expand the hotel room scene with the guy who beats Mary Kay up with the thought that once he kicks the crap out of her he gets an erection and then ... . Someone else wanted me to expand on the lesbian romance between Vernae and Mary Kay because she thought it could be hot.
I'm convinced there is someone out there for every possibility to include a person who gets aroused watching paint dry. ;-)
I have to wonder what would happen if you wrote this as a "mainstream" short story rather than a sex story. Would it still work? I wonder ... I don't know if you have any desire to go that route, but it would surprise me if you could not make it work if you wanted to ...
I covered how I started writing porn prior to you joining up here at ASSD, but here is the summary explanation. I wanted to write fiction to help me with my therapy. I started using a different nym with the folks at alt.fiction.original but soon realized they had an agenda other than helping people learn how to write.
I read some way cool porn from my roommate's library to include Candy by Terry Southern, Who Pushed Paula by Akbar Del Piombo, Behind the Green Door by the ever popular Anonymous. He also suggested that I might like reading Internet porn to include Parker who wrote such classics as Stacy's Senior Year and many other blackmail and humiliation stories. I realized from reading these people that parody could be an integral part of porn writing and started writing my Katie R series. It's a lot more fun hanging out with porn authors so I've not tried my hand at mainstream friction.
Just a little thought that may not have come to you ...
I plan on writing the four other stories in the Mary Kay series and hope they are as well received as the ones I've written to date. My hope is to finish writing the series and then use the result as the basis of a novel. The novel will be mainstream with the sex aspects minimized.
Looking forward to the version 2.0 of this Lap Dancer :-)
I'm glad you like the story and will make an announcement when version 2.0 is completed. ;-)
It's Me! Katie McN
<[email protected]>
Read My Stories at:
www.katie-mcn.com
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 23:32:57 -0600
On Sat, 08 Mar 2003 19:24:13 GMT, Katie McN <[email protected]> wrote:
Addiction is very isolating. Consider that a person has allowed him or herself to get in a position where the main purpose in life is to use a very expense substance to alter reality in some way. Altered reality is not shared even when people do drugs together. Addicts try to keep a lot of things secret. Revealing basic things like the amount drugs a person might have, how much money a person has, who is selling the best stuff and a variety of other "in the life" details are closely held. If not, a person stands a good chance of being robbed, beaten or developing "new friends" who demand a share of what a person has. The stakes are too high for an addict to do this.
I think it is more complicated than that. An addict may not wish to admit to anyone, even herself, how demanding the addiction is. When forced to do so by the desperation of desire, what she is willing to do in order to satisfy that is too embarrassing to tell to just anyone. Or maybe anyone at all.
That and not remembering exactly what was done in order to get her high.
Not everyone has the same effect. A lot of people live with milder degrees of addiction, with the resources to pay for it while maintaining a regular job or school lifestyle. It still isn't something you want to tell everyone about. Not even close friends.
Maybe especially close friends, because you can't trust them not to try to force you do to things for your own good?
There is a stigma associated with all aspects of sex worker activity. When I was young, girls talked about when it was right to kiss and how long to wait to progress from kissing to touching to fucking. Being too obvious, moving too fast and so many other things could result in a girl being called a slut. Sometimes just having tits bigger than most or looking a little different was enough to gain the slut designation even when a girl wasn't active. Imagine then how girls feel who get into the sex worker life. Also, since society considers them to be scum, there are many who think it's just fine to treat them as such.
The bottom line for sex workers is that the people who get into this life almost always bring a lot of negative baggage along with them. Typical of the girls in this line of work is a background where they have been molested as a child, raped one or more times, been in abusive relationships and may be trying to mentally hide via alcoholism or drug addiction.
The class of woman who would consider a lap dancer job is not made up of every woman in the world and so we don't always find that the participants are beautiful, physically attractive or glamorous. The person responsible for making sure there are enough girls working has to select from the available pool.
I think there are different degrees of involvement. Not all face quite so much negativity from their own society, no matter what some hypothetical social circles in town may think. It does require a certain attitude in order to do this sort of work, and not everyone has it. Many do feel forced into it because nothing else is available to pay the bills.
Mary Kay sounds like one of those. The same goes for some friends of mine, and once you get started, the work does seem pretty easy. Even fun.
Not everyone is quite so on their own. Family, lovers - ones who openly profess and show love pretty much the same any relationship, not bent by this profession - and friends all can offer support.
Again, the social circle does make a difference. The ghetto and trailer park kids don't exactly see the strip club as a move down in society, if you know what I mean?
I think they are right, too. When you're poor, finding some way to get yourself to be less poor is worth doing.
For some it is just a nice bit of casual bonus money, not a full time lifestyle. All those dancers working for the private show agencies aren't tied to club schedules or environments. There is a crossover, and there maybe isn't a big step between private dancing and being a call girl, but it isn't quite the grind of the lap dancer places.
I've friends who have done the private dancing gigs, and to them it was generally nice money and fun. One guy I knew - maybe a typical guy attitude - didn't mind that some of the women wanted to do more than just look.
For the girl I knew who worked on the street, on the other hand, it was simply the only way a teen girl could make a living on her own. Fifty bucks for a blow job, what is that, $600/hour? OK, some guys took a little longer, but most wouldn't (plus you spend a lot of time waiting for good customers). I think her age was a factor, teen as in minor has a special appeal above the mere sex alone, to a lot of guys. Sure, some guys insisted that she had to be 18 (and she did have the ID to prove that when needed) but others didn't mind at all that they were violating serious (felony) age restrictions, on top of the usual issues of prostitution.
But she was on the street at 15 for a good reason, one which fits right into the things which drive women into the life of lap dancing. To me, the temptation of that kind of money was very strong. But I had a home, and money, so joining her on the street corner just didn't seem worth it. When I knew her, she was no longer doing it, but she was embarrassed and ashamed about it. I felt, then and now, that what she had done wasn't "wrong," but there were better ways to make a living. All she needed was the opportunity to do something more with her life.
It wouldn't add much to the story to show the reader a lot of detail about ordinary looking girls, going through the motions and who try to extract money from the drunks who are sitting around the stage.
No, that wouldn't be so much fun.
I don't know who here has been in a strip club, or dealt with sex workers, or even porn stars. The people in them have lives outside that business, and for the most part aren't living lifestyles of blissful sex and daily orgies. It isn't always so negative as Katie's tale here, but it is often simply just a job.
One of pretense, kind of like acting. Or sales :-) The drunk customers pretend that the girls actually are excited and like them, and the girls pretend the same thing.
It could be fun. Sometimes even sexy fun, flirting, flashing play. But it had a serious side, and is hard work (anyone want to try dancing for six to eight hours, no appreciable breaks because off-stage time means off-stage dancing, or at least conversation).
When I discovered my first strip club - BTW, it was in the basement of our NCO club, an example of how Uncle Sam supports the troops (and being in an enlightened era, there was a ladies night with male dancers) - I found the place fun and exciting. The atmosphere was somewhat demure, the girls cheerful, and the crowd usually well-behaved. There was time to chat with the dancers, and the whole situation was intimate. It didn't have the sleazy feel of a lap dance place - nor were there lap dances as such, even if a girl might take a minute to sit there from time to time.
I wasn't innocent about women at that point anyway, and maybe that made it more casual for me. I liked the exhibitionist aspect of it, and some of the girls also did get off on that part, not just the money I'm sure. But for me, I never felt disrespectful of the dancers there.
Having discovered such things, when I was back in civilian life I checked out some local spots. Most lacked the same charm, and frankly didn't have enough appeal to draw me back. I'd rather find a nice club where I could take some nice friend out dancing, and home later on, you know?
There was one neighborhood club, though, on my way home from college. Stopping off there for a beer was just relaxing, and doing so while playing pool with a nice girl - they did have relaxing breaks, and no table or lap dances such as in Katie's story - or some guys was not much different than some other bar. The scenery was a bonus, but to me it wasn't totally different from any other corner bar.
As a neighorhood regular - someone often around who got to know a lot of people there, including the owner - it was kind of like the "Cheers" thing. Not quite the same conversations, but often it wasn't a lot different. We'd talk about school, other jobs, and life in general. The dancing and sex stuff wasn't so important.
I ended up going out with one of the girls there. How that happened is a long story, but becoming one of the dancer's boyfriends (who certain customers seem to despise for some reason - my long hair and college student status probably did make me out of place in the nighttime crowd) changed things a lot. For one thing, I learned - no surprise to Katie I imagine - that most of the girls had someone waiting for them at home. That was intuitively obvious I suppose, but talking with them as one of the dancer's SOs made it blatant.
It kind of killed the fun of the place. Oh, not that partly naked girls dancing and strip teasing would ever be unappealing, but somehow my fantasies were permanently ruined. Not immediately, but when my dancer friend and I parted ways, the temptation to spend so much time in the place was gone. Moving to a new home meant no convenient neighborhood strip club on the corner, but the thrill was gone. I knew the girls working there were regular girls, and my interest in regular girls was (and is) much more in the truly up close and personal relationships, not looking up at her on stage.
I did find one real lap dance club, and while the environment was sexy, and my luck there was very good (nude club and the girl was going off shift and liked me), I didn't repeat the experience. I may have tried it sometime later, but it got closed down. Given the nature of its management (as related by the girls I talked with), that was just fine anyway.
In the years since then, I've had friends and even relatives work in this industry, and somehow I've never wrangled an invitation - or even just dropped in - to see them working. Maybe I should to offer support, but I can do that just fine when they're not working.
I've never considered the girls I knew who did this sort of things sluts. But I've heard it said of them by other acquaintances, and know that it has to be a very hard thing to cope with. Mostly, your real friends will know that you're doing this sort of job because you need to, and that it really doesn't make you scum, or worse, to do it.
I also just couldn't imagine me being one of those middle aged guys showing up at the clubs all the time. As a college kid, maybe such adventures were just ordinary wild fun, but they could be an addiction too. Being addicted to love is OK, right?
But the sex clubs and workers aren't really about love, and the sex fantasies played out often aren't very loving either.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Gary Jordan
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: 09 Mar 2003 03:45:12 GMT
Altan said:
On Sat, 08 Mar 2003 19:24:13 GMT, Katie McN <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Everyone!
Hi Katie,
I'm glad that you found our comments useful.
Me, too!
There is one more comment I wanted to make, a thing that has been going through my head since I read your story, but I wasn't quite sure how to put it. In fact, I started to respond to HyperTesseract's post, but deleted my response because I couldn't write it down properly.
HyperTesseract said, "This is not a sex story." I think he is right. There is quite a lot of sex in this story, but only part of it contributes to the actual story, I guess the rest of it is to have it fit in the format of "on-line sex stories."
Um. "The format of 'on-line sex stories'."
Other than the mechanical restrictions, such as ASCII or extended ASCII for non-binary newsgroups, or html, or what-have-you (even flash!), I wasn't aware that there was a "format" for on-line sex stories.
I have to wonder what would happen if you wrote this as a "mainstream" short story rather than a sex story. Would it still work? I wonder ... I don't know if you have any desire to go that route, but it would surprise me if you could not make it work if you wanted to ...
Mainstream ... Other than being paid versus self-published, how do you distinguish between "mainstream" stories and "on-line" stories? It isn't the sex - I've read mainstream romance novels with as much sex (or more) than on-line sex stories.
Just a little thought that may not have come to you ...
Nor me. It still hasn't. At least, not the way you presented the case. Can you clarify?
Looking forward to the version 2.0 of this Lap Dancer :-)
Me, too! Again!
Gary Jordan
"Old submariners never die; they just wallow in sunken tubs."
<I>"This communicating of a man's self to his friend works two contrary effects, for it redoubleth joys, and cutteth griefs in half." - Francis Bacon, Essays </I>
From: cmsix
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 04:51:17 GMT
"Gary Jordan" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
Altan said:
On Sat, 08 Mar 2003 19:24:13 GMT, Katie McN <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Everyone!
Hi Katie,
I'm glad that you found our comments useful.
Me, too!
There is one more comment I wanted to make, a thing that has been going through my head since I read your story, but I wasn't quite sure how to put it. In fact, I started to respond to HyperTesseract's post, but deleted my response because I couldn't write it down properly.
HyperTesseract said, "This is not a sex story." I think he is right. There is quite a lot of sex in this story, but only part of it contributes to the actual story, I guess the rest of it is to have it fit in the format of "on-line sex stories."
Um. "The format of 'on-line sex stories'."
Other than the mechanical restrictions, such as ASCII or extended ASCII for non-binary newsgroups, or html, or what-have-you (even flash!), I wasn't aware that there was a "format" for on-line sex stories.
I have to wonder what would happen if you wrote this as a "mainstream" short story rather than a sex story. Would it still work? I wonder ... I don't know if you have any desire to go that route, but it would surprise me if you could not make it work if you wanted to ...
Mainstream ... Other than being paid versus self-published, how do you distinguish between "mainstream" stories and "on-line" stories? It isn't the sex - I've read mainstream romance novels with as much sex (or more) than on-line sex stories.
I can't resist jumping in and I hope I don't piss anyone off, but it always pisses me off when I get a message telling me that I should try and get something published. Hell every story I write is published. It isn't published in print and I don't get money for it but it is published.
I usually try to be nice when I explain this. I also resent it when they mention that I might be able to get money for it. I've spent my whole life trying to get rid of money, now that I've found something I enjoy doing the last thing I would consider is ruining it by trying to get money for it, besides, think of all the extra work it would be and the restrictions that would be encountered.
I guess I should get down off this box now before I fall off, or get pushed.
cmsix
Just a little thought that may not have come to you ...
Nor me. It still hasn't. At least, not the way you presented the case. Can you clarify?
Looking forward to the version 2.0 of this Lap Dancer :-)
Me, too! Again!
Gary Jordan
"Old submariners never die; they just wallow in sunken tubs."
<I>"This communicating of a man's self to his friend works two contrary effects, for it redoubleth joys, and cutteth griefs in half." - Francis Bacon, Essays </I>
From: Altan
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 14:58:37 GMT
On 09 Mar 2003 03:45:12 GMT, [email protected] (Gary Jordan) wrote:
Altan said:
There is one more comment I wanted to make, a thing that has been going through my head since I read your story, but I wasn't quite sure how to put it. In fact, I started to respond to HyperTesseract's post, but deleted my response because I couldn't write it down properly.
HyperTesseract said, "This is not a sex story." I think he is right. There is quite a lot of sex in this story, but only part of it contributes to the actual story, I guess the rest of it is to have it fit in the format of "on-line sex stories."
Um. "The format of 'on-line sex stories'."
Other than the mechanical restrictions, such as ASCII or extended ASCII for non-binary newsgroups, or html, or what-have-you (even flash!), I wasn't aware that there was a "format" for on-line sex stories.
I have to wonder what would happen if you wrote this as a "mainstream" short story rather than a sex story. Would it still work? I wonder ... I don't know if you have any desire to go that route, but it would surprise me if you could not make it work if you wanted to ...
Mainstream ... Other than being paid versus self-published, how do you distinguish between "mainstream" stories and "on-line" stories? It isn't the sex - I've read mainstream romance novels with as much sex (or more) than on-line sex stories.
Just a little thought that may not have come to you ...
Nor me. It still hasn't. At least, not the way you presented the case. Can you clarify?
I'll try, but first off I want to apologize for getting Tesseract's name wrong - I've seen it a thousand times, of course, but still used the mailbox name instead of the "real" name. I realized my mistake just after I pressed the Send button.
I'm sorry that my comment was unclear and may have caused misunderstandings. I did not intend to say anything detrimental, either to this group or to any one else. I did not want to imply that there are "better" or "less good" ways of publishing one's writing, and certainly did not want to imply that a writer should try to get paid for it or should try to get published in paper. Most of all, I did not in any way want to suggest I would want tell Katie how to write her stories.
As for what I did attempt to say, let me try to say it in another way. I liked the story so much I would want to show it around to friends, at the office, etc. As currently written, it has a fair amount of sexual detail and because of that I would not feel comfortable sharing it. What I was wondering about was how much of that sexual detail was a necessary part of the story and how much was added because of expectations of the target audience.
I know there is no absolute format that stories that are published for free on-line have to adhere to. On the other hand, we all know that in order for a "sex" story to become successfull with a large on-line audience, a certain amount of sexual detail is almost a must.
The question I was asking Katie was, whether she had considered writing the story for a broader audience than the readers of ASSM, SOL and similar fora. Actually, she did answer that question in her reply: she has chosen this venue on purpose for her own reasons.
Again, I am sorry if I was misunderstood. My intention was not to critizice or to know better, only to raise a thought that I hadn't seen in the discussion before.
A.
http://www.asstr.org/~altan/
From: Tesseract
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: 9 Mar 2003 17:56:02 -0800
Altan <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...
On 09 Mar 2003 03:45:12 GMT, [email protected] (Gary Jordan) wrote:
Altan said:
There is one more comment I wanted to make, a thing that has been going through my head since I read your story, but I wasn't quite sure how to put it. In fact, I started to respond to HyperTesseract's post, but deleted my response because I couldn't write it down properly.
HyperTesseract said, "This is not a sex story." I think he is right. There is quite a lot of sex in this story, but only part of it contributes to the actual story, I guess the rest of it is to have it fit in the format of "on-line sex stories."
Um. "The format of 'on-line sex stories'."
Other than the mechanical restrictions, such as ASCII or extended ASCII for non-binary newsgroups, or html, or what-have-you (even flash!), I wasn't aware that there was a "format" for on-line sex stories.
I have to wonder what would happen if you wrote this as a "mainstream" short story rather than a sex story. Would it still work? I wonder ... I don't know if you have any desire to go that route, but it would surprise me if you could not make it work if you wanted to ...
Mainstream ... Other than being paid versus self-published, how do you distinguish between "mainstream" stories and "on-line" stories? It isn't the sex - I've read mainstream romance novels with as much sex (or more) than on-line sex stories.
Just a little thought that may not have come to you ...
Nor me. It still hasn't. At least, not the way you presented the case. Can you clarify?
I'll try, but first off I want to apologize for getting Tesseract's name wrong - I've seen it a thousand times, of course, but still used the mailbox name instead of the "real" name. I realized my mistake just after I pressed the Send button.
Accepted.
I'm sorry that my comment was unclear and may have caused misunderstandings. I did not intend to say anything detrimental, either to this group or to any one else. I did not want to imply that there are "better" or "less good" ways of publishing one's writing, and certainly did not want to imply that a writer should try to get paid for it or should try to get published in paper. Most of all, I did not in any way want to suggest I would want tell Katie how to write her stories.
As for what I did attempt to say, let me try to say it in another way. I liked the story so much I would want to show it around to friends, at the office, etc. As currently written, it has a fair amount of sexual detail and because of that I would not feel comfortable sharing it. What I was wondering about was how much of that sexual detail was a necessary part of the story and how much was added because of expectations of the target audience.
I know there is no absolute format that stories that are published for free on-line have to adhere to. On the other hand, we all know that in order for a "sex" story to become successfull with a large on-line audience, a certain amount of sexual detail is almost a must.
The question I was asking Katie was, whether she had considered writing the story for a broader audience than the readers of ASSM, SOL and similar fora. Actually, she did answer that question in her reply: she has chosen this venue on purpose for her own reasons.
Again, I am sorry if I was misunderstood. My intention was not to critizice or to know better, only to raise a thought that I hadn't seen in the discussion before.
I don't think Gary was looking for an apology. He was just exploring the ramifications of what you said and pointing out some details that you may have overlooked. A good response would be to answer the points he raised.
But cut out the grovelling. It's so unbecoming in a grown man. And it seems so mean spirited to throw peanuts at you when you grovel.
Tesseract
From: Gary Jordan
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: 10 Mar 2003 02:42:32 GMT
<snip>
I don't think Gary was looking for an apology. He was just exploring the ramifications of what you said and pointing out some details that you may have overlooked. A good response would be to answer the points he raised.
But cut out the grovelling. It's so unbecoming in a grown man. And it seems so mean spirited to throw peanuts at you when you grovel.
-
Tesseract
Yeah! What he said.
Gary Jordan
"Old submariners never die; they just wallow in sunken tubs."
<I>"This communicating of a man's self to his friend works two contrary effects, for it redoubleth joys, and cutteth griefs in half." - Francis Bacon, Essays </I>
From: Kelli Halliburton
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 21:42:46 GMT
Tesseract wrote:
If you really want to change it you could call it Vernae; if you rename A Letter to Vanessa to just Vanessa it could become a signature for stories in this series. You could also call it Vernae's Gift or Vernae's Dream.
Sincec I am coming so late to this party, just about everything I wanted to say when I read this has been said.
I will therefore only offer my thoughts on the title, which I think might be somewhat original.
"To Vernae, Who I Never Knew, But Loved Me"
It may perhaps foreshadow the events of the story too strongly, though.
From: Katie McN
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 23:09:28 GMT
Hi "Kelli Halliburton" <[email protected]>,
On Sun, 09 Mar 2003 21:42:46 GMT I noticed your interesting post:
Tesseract wrote:
If you really want to change it you could call it Vernae; if you rename A Letter to Vanessa to just Vanessa it could become a signature for stories in this series. You could also call it Vernae's Gift or Vernae's Dream.
Sincec I am coming so late to this party, just about everything I wanted to say when I read this has been said.
I will therefore only offer my thoughts on the title, which I think might be somewhat original.
"To Vernae, Who I Never Knew, But Loved Me"
It may perhaps foreshadow the events of the story too strongly, though.
PeeJ and I have settled on Lap Dancer as the final title. I'm not sure that I can adequately convey that the relationship between Vernae and Mary Kay was not love when I do the revision, but I'm going to try. I hope I can reduce the important of Vernae's character in the story since she was not as important as she appears in the current rendition.
The thought of trying to maintain a woman's name as the focal point for each story fades when one considers the working titles for the next four stories are:
Artist and Model
Lover and Friend
Mother and Daughter
Husband and Wife
Instead of trying to be fancy, I think I better just go with my old way of naming stories which is to see what my muse has to say and go with it. ;-)
It's Me! Katie McN
<[email protected]>
Read My Stories at:
www.katie-mcn.com
From: Desdmona
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 12:59:16 -0500
"Katie McN" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
PeeJ and I have settled on Lap Dancer as the final title. I'm not sure that I can adequately convey that the relationship between Vernae and Mary Kay was not love when I do the revision, but I'm going to try. I hope I can reduce the important of Vernae's character in the story since she was not as important as she appears in the current rendition.
Katie~
It wasn't until I'd read some of the other responses that it was clear to me the relationship between Vernae and MK. If it helps in anyway, I'll say this. I think I understood that it wasn't love right up until the end and because of the magnitude of the gift ($21,000) Vernae was willing to give, I suddenly thought it must be love ... at least love on Vernae's part.
Although you've explained how it wouldn't take much effort for a woman pulling all the punches to accumulate that sum of money, it is still a huge sum. And it's very difficult to believe that anyone would willingly spend that amount of cash on someone else if they didn't love them.
So I'm wondering if you just left out the actual sum of money, if it wouldn't take care of the problem. Refer to cash, maybe even refer to a large sum, but don't actually say, $21,000.
It seems like an easy fix.
Des
From: Katie McN
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 18:54:11 GMT
Hi "Desdmona" <[email protected]>,
On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 12:59:16 -0500 I noticed your interesting post:
"Katie McN" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
PeeJ and I have settled on Lap Dancer as the final title. I'm not sure that I can adequately convey that the relationship between Vernae and Mary Kay was not love when I do the revision, but I'm going to try. I hope I can reduce the important of Vernae's character in the story since she was not as important as she appears in the current rendition.
Katie~
It wasn't until I'd read some of the other responses that it was clear to me the relationship between Vernae and MK. If it helps in anyway, I'll say this. I think I understood that it wasn't love right up until the end and because of the magnitude of the gift ($21,000) Vernae was willing to give, I suddenly thought it must be love ... at least love on Vernae's part.
Although you've explained how it wouldn't take much effort for a woman pulling all the punches to accumulate that sum of money, it is still a huge sum. And it's very difficult to believe that anyone would willingly spend that amount of cash on someone else if they didn't love them.
So I'm wondering if you just left out the actual sum of money, if it wouldn't take care of the problem. Refer to cash, maybe even refer to a large sum, but don't actually say, $21,000.
It seems like an easy fix.
The whole revision is turning out to be a lot more difficult than I thought it would be. You idea is a good one and probably something that can fit. Thanks for continuing to puzzle this one through for me. I appreciate your efforts and those of everyone who participated in the Fishtank and who sent me suggestions directly.
xxx
It's Me! Katie McN
<[email protected]>
Read My Stories at:
www.katie-mcn.com
From: Kenny N Gamera
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 20:10:30 -0500
On Sun, 09 Mar 2003 03:27:00 GMT, Katie McN <[email protected]> wrote:
I'm convinced there is someone out there for every possibility to include a person who gets aroused watching paint dry. ;-)
DIBS!!!!!
Thank You and Good Day,
Kenny N Gamera
[email protected]
From: Tesseract
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: 10 Mar 2003 22:12:48 -0800
Kenny N Gamera <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...
On Sun, 09 Mar 2003 03:27:00 GMT, Katie McN <[email protected]> wrote:
I'm convinced there is someone out there for every possibility to include a person who gets aroused watching paint dry. ;-)
DIBS!!!!!
Thank You and Good Day,
Kenny N Gamera
[email protected]
The big question is: Does suzee get wet watching you watch paint get dry? Inquiring minds want to know.
Tesseract
From: suzee
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 14:36:07 GMT
Tesseract wrote:
Kenny N Gamera <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ... On Sun, 09 Mar 2003 03:27:00 GMT, Katie McN <[email protected]> wrote:
I'm convinced there is someone out there for every possibility to include a person who gets aroused watching paint dry. ;-)
DIBS!!!!!
Thank You and Good Day,
Kenny N Gamera
[email protected]
The big question is: Does suzee get wet watching you watch paint get dry? Inquiring minds want to know.
Depends what else he's doing while watching the paint dry ... ;)
suzee
From: Katie McN
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 06:43:10 GMT
Hi Kenny N Gamera <[email protected]>,
On Mon, 10 Mar 2003 20:10:30 -0500 I noticed your interesting post:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2003 03:27:00 GMT, Katie McN <[email protected]> wrote:
I'm convinced there is someone out there for every possibility to include a person who gets aroused watching paint dry. ;-)
DIBS!!!!!
Amazing! You'll never guess who I was thinking of when I came up with the above idea!!
It's Me! Katie McN
<[email protected]>
Read My Stories at:
www.katie-mcn.com
From: Kenny N Gamera
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 07:01:18 -0500
On Tue, 11 Mar 2003 06:43:10 GMT, Katie McN <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Kenny N Gamera <[email protected]>,
On Mon, 10 Mar 2003 20:10:30 -0500 I noticed your interesting post:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2003 03:27:00 GMT, Katie McN <[email protected]> wrote:
I'm convinced there is someone out there for every possibility to include a person who gets aroused watching paint dry. ;-)
DIBS!!!!!
Amazing! You'll never guess who I was thinking of when I came up with the above idea!!
Should I be insulted?
Thank You and Good Day,
Kenny N Gamera
[email protected]
From: cmsix
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 13:35:10 GMT
"Kenny N Gamera" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
On Tue, 11 Mar 2003 06:43:10 GMT, Katie McN <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Kenny N Gamera <[email protected]>,
On Mon, 10 Mar 2003 20:10:30 -0500 I noticed your interesting post:
On Sun, 09 Mar 2003 03:27:00 GMT, Katie McN <[email protected]> wrote:
I'm convinced there is someone out there for every possibility to include a person who gets aroused watching paint dry. ;-)
DIBS!!!!!
Amazing! You'll never guess who I was thinking of when I came up with the above idea!!
Should I be insulted?
I didn't get the joke but I have an answer to your question.
Yes, often.
cmsix
Thank You and Good Day,
Kenny N Gamera
[email protected]
From: dennyw
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 17:43:00 -0800
On Tue, 11 Mar 2003 14:36:07 GMT, suzee <[email protected]> wrote:
Tesseract wrote:
Kenny N Gamera <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ... On Sun, 09 Mar 2003 03:27:00 GMT, Katie McN <[email protected]> wrote:
I'm convinced there is someone out there for every possibility to include a person who gets aroused watching paint dry. ;-)
DIBS!!!!!
Thank You and Good Day,
Kenny N Gamera
[email protected]
The big question is: Does suzee get wet watching you watch paint get dry? Inquiring minds want to know.
Depends what else he's doing while watching the paint dry ... ;)
I thought it depended on where the paint was ...
-denny (curmudgeon)
"I'm full of good answers - sometimes it's the question that's wrong." Miss Behavin'
From: Naive
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 06:31:30 GMT
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2003 14:36:07 GMT, suzee <[email protected]> wrote:
Tesseract wrote:
Kenny N Gamera <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ... On Sun, 09 Mar 2003 03:27:00 GMT, Katie McN <[email protected]> wrote:
I'm convinced there is someone out there for every possibility to include a person who gets aroused watching paint dry. ;-)
DIBS!!!!!
Thank You and Good Day,
Kenny N Gamera
[email protected]
The big question is: Does suzee get wet watching you watch paint get dry? Inquiring minds want to know.
Depends what else he's doing while watching the paint dry ... ;)
I thought it depended on where the paint was ...
Darn, I always thought it was the fumes.
Naive
No quote yet ...
~place in quote here~
http://www.asstr.org/~naive/
From: Kenny N Gamera
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 07:07:11 -0500
On Mon, 17 Mar 2003 06:31:30 GMT, [email protected] (Naive) wrote:
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote: On Tue, 11 Mar 2003 14:36:07 GMT, suzee <[email protected]> wrote:
Tesseract wrote:
The big question is: Does suzee get wet watching you watch paint get dry? Inquiring minds want to know.
Depends what else he's doing while watching the paint dry ... ;)
I thought it depended on where the paint was ...
Darn, I always thought it was the fumes.
mmmmmmmmm! fumes!
Kenny N Gamera
[email protected]
From: Gary Jordan
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: 17 Mar 2003 13:30:35 GMT
Naive writ:
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote: On Tue, 11 Mar 2003 14:36:07 GMT, suzee <[email protected]> wrote:
Tesseract wrote:
Kenny N Gamera <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ... On Sun, 09 Mar 2003 03:27:00 GMT, Katie McN <[email protected]> wrote:
I'm convinced there is someone out there for every possibility to include a person who gets aroused watching paint dry. ;-)
DIBS!!!!!
Thank You and Good Day,
Kenny N Gamera
[email protected]
The big question is: Does suzee get wet watching you watch paint get dry? Inquiring minds want to know.
Depends what else he's doing while watching the paint dry ... ;)
I thought it depended on where the paint was ...
Darn, I always thought it was the fumes.
Body paint doesn't generally have interesting fumes. And if the fumes are coming from the "canvas," you generally end up watching from a distance.
Gary Jordan
"Old submariners never die; they just wallow in sunken tubs."
<I>"This communicating of a man's self to his friend works two contrary effects, for it redoubleth joys, and cutteth griefs in half." - Francis Bacon, Essays </I>
From: Kenny N Gamera
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 07:09:13 -0500
On Sun, 16 Mar 2003 17:43:00 -0800, Denny Wheeler <[email protected]> wrote:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2003 14:36:07 GMT, suzee <[email protected]> wrote:
Tesseract wrote:
The big question is: Does suzee get wet watching you watch paint get dry? Inquiring minds want to know.
Depends what else he's doing while watching the paint dry ... ;)
I thought it depended on where the paint was ...
Hey! a turtle deserves a FEW secrets!
Thank You and Good Day,
Kenny N Gamera
[email protected]
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From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Lap Dancer, by Katie McN
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 13:30:54 -0600
On Mon, 3 Mar 2003 08:07:15 -0500, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote:
First thing, damn this is a good story! Very intense, and had that special feel that a story about "being there" has.
Vernae is unusual, but not entirely rare; Verna seems just a bit more popular as a spelling? Not sure if it works as a stand alone, but you used Mallory as a title and I think that worked. Vernae the Lap Dancer makes it clear that it is about her, but I'm not sure I like that either.
I liked it too much to make suggestions. Really, nothing stood out for change. The style fits the story length just fine. If you were doing a longer novel version, maybe you'd need more, but it is perfect to tell the events of this episode.
I can't say for sure - the emotional side works for me but part of that is being close to people who've done similar things. I can't help but empathize with the situation, and I don't expect the lifestyle of a lap dancer/hooker to be all love and fun.
There is light stuff which is very intense - the porn movie scene with the bad acting and bad sex is funny. The ending is very touching, and I don't know how you could beat such a gift of love.
First really big positive is that it is a story about a girl making her way in the world using her body to make money, and it doesn't slip into being a tale about the wonderful pleasures of that lifestyle. My own contact with it tended to emphasize the positives, because my girl friends weren't willing to tell all the horror stories to me - or maybe I wasn't interested in hearing them. I still heard some, because the girls would talk between each other around me, or just let a few things out from time to time about how bad things were.
So just maybe out there some guys will read it and think a bit more about the girls they're playing with in bars for money. Better yet, maybe some girls will read it and think twice before getting in the business. I don't know about either of these things though, just that it was a nice story about a situation which wasn't so nice.
I'm sorry, I can't think of anything to improve. Maybe if I read it again something will pop out, but it seemed good to me.
OK, minor thing, and it is only from a voyeuristic male POV that it matters. I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more description of the body appearances of the girls. What they do, and how they get along, matters more for them in the story. The guys in it seem to get a more detailed description. I figure it is natural for Mary Kay not to go on about herself, and to pay more attention to what goes on in bed than how things look. I don't think it would hurt to go on just a bit more about how gorgeous they are.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.