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From: dennyw
Re: La Jalousie, by Selena Jardine
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:07:48 -0700
On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 23:20:13 +0200, "Father Ignatius" <[email protected]> held forth, saying:
Damn good effort, though. For a woman. ;-)
I see Nat is once again taking advantage of his geographic isolation.
<g>
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon
"Every single day
Every word you say
Every game you play ..."
From: oosh
Re: La Jalousie, by Selena Jardine
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 23:21:58 +0000 (UTC)
The rhythm and balance of the prose struck me as faultless. This is the writing of someone who knows the effect she wants, and just how to get it.
I was impressed to see a triptych of flash stories. The whole is more than the sum of the parts. Although they can be read in isolation, I feel that they belong together like the movements of a symphony. The couple seem to be playing a destructive jealousy-game, without ever wishing to admit it to themselves. And I suppose the one-way blind reflects the fact that while they think they know what drives (or does not drive) the other, they are blind to their own motivation. But then, they don't understand their partner's motive either.
I had to read /Letter-opener/ three times. But it is a triumph of much in little!
My only suggestion for improvement is embarrassingly minor: I'd surround a hyphen with spaces to indicate a dash (I stumbled over "long-eighteen") and not put a space before a full stop.
O.
From: dennyw
Re: La Jalousie, by Selena Jardine
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 19:23:37 -0700
On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 23:21:58 +0000 (UTC), oosh <[email protected]> held forth, saying:
My only suggestion for improvement is embarrassingly minor: I'd surround a hyphen with spaces to indicate a dash (I stumbled over "long-eighteen")
minor quibble: use two hyphens as an em-dash - with no spaces. (as I did between 'dash' and 'with' above) -denny- nocturnal curmudgeon
"Every single day
Every word you say
Every game you play ..."
From: Mat Twassel
Re: La Jalousie, by Selena Jardine
Date: 18 Jun 2002 04:15:00 GMT
For now just one suggestion for improvement:
She knew how she could have been so blind,
but not how she could have done it so long.<
Maybe I'm being blind, but I don't quite understand this sentence. "Done it," I guess, is what I'm not sure of. Done what? Been blind?
- Mat Twassel
Mat's Erotic Calendar at http://calendar.atEros.com
From: Conjugate
Re: La Jalousie, by Selena Jardine
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 02:17:24 -0400
<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 23:20:13 +0200, "Father Ignatius" <[email protected]> held forth, saying:
Damn good effort, though. For a woman. ;-)
I see Nat is once again taking advantage of his geographic isolation. <g>
It may soon be more than geographic; I read where all domain names ending in .za are going to be the subject of a big fight. The government wants control, and ICANN doesn't want them to have it. The current person in charge of such things has moved the domain names offshore. Looks like a fun fight, and might lead to quite a fuss.
Conjugate
From: Conjugate
Re: La Jalousie, by Selena Jardine
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 02:20:12 -0400
"oosh" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
The rhythm and balance of the prose struck me as faultless. This is the writing of someone who knows the effect she wants, and just how to get it.
I was impressed to see a triptych of flash stories. The whole is more than the sum of the parts. Although they can be read in isolation, I feel that they belong together like the movements of a symphony. The couple seem to be playing a destructive jealousy-game, without ever wishing to admit it to themselves. And I suppose the one-way blind reflects the fact that while they think they know what drives (or does not drive) the other, they are blind to their own motivation. But then, they don't understand their partner's motive either.
I had to read /Letter-opener/ three times. But it is a triumph of much in little!
My only suggestion for improvement is embarrassingly minor: I'd surround a hyphen with spaces to indicate a dash (I stumbled over "long-eighteen") and not put a space before a full stop.
Or a triple-hyphen - -like this. Or double-hyphen with spaces - also commonly used. (Now, I could start the whole debate over lower-ASCII vs. upper-ASCII by using � for an n-dash and � for an m-dash ...better not.)
Conjugate
dashing away quickly. Those were alt-0150 and alt-0151, for those who care,
or who "char."
From: Frank McCoy
Re: La Jalousie, by Selena Jardine
Date: 19 Jun 2002 17:34:45 GMT
"Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote:
1) 2 positive comments
Each story individually was fairly good; and made a point. No jarring inconsitancies.
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
Overall, I wondered why link them together, except for the first two. (That left me a little confused as to whether they were part of the same story.)
I'd prefer either one complete story, or just the flashes.
3) Try not to repeat!
Tried not to ... It's hard, with all these other guys commenting.
/ ' / ™
,-/-, . __ /
(/ / ((/|/ / </ <
From: Mat Twassel
Re: La Jalousie, by Selena Jardine
Date: 19 Jun 2002 20:01:31 GMT
Some Strengths: Good job in "La Jalousie (Lisa)" at getting the character (Lisa) to show us more of herself than she knows or intends. Everything contributes, voice, diction and historic detail, giving her a real fullness and richness. Everything in here contributes and is worth studying, but I'll point to the way she uses "of course."
Another remarkable thing about this piece is that the thing works, it lets us into it, even though there's really no "present" action, no "immediate" scene.
There are depths to the irony. The last line (almost unnecessary) hints at Lisa's blindness, but the main thing is that we are able to have an opinion about her true worth.
All these pieces remind me of those Spoon River poems by Edgar Lee Masters.
I owe another suggestion, but right now I don't have one. It's not that I think these pieces are flawless. They are all fairly well crafted and enjoyable. This first one is the strongest, I think. Can I get by by saying that I think they become progressively weaker perhaps because they're overly devoted to being playful or to fulfilling the theme? The twist in the letter, for example, feels ordinary; I don't think I learned enough. The joke in "In the Frame" is too mild. I'm left feeling a little disappointed. Okay, maybe I do have a suggestion: Don't try so hard to end these stories with a knock-out punch. The most successful KO besides Lisa's is Eddie's. It's excellent. Even so, it has a storyish feel to it. I wonder if there's any way to avoid that.
- Mat Twassel
Mat's Erotic Calendar at http://calendar.atEros.com
From: Desdmona
Re: La Jalousie, by Selena Jardine
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 14:05:10 -0400
La Jalousie
By Selena Jardine [email protected]
La Jalousie (Joseph)
La Jalousie (Eddie)
Letter Opener
In the Frame
Selena~
First, let me apologize for the confusion about the flash stories. As you stated, it's meant to be only the first three that are linked. The other two are not related. Oops! sorry about that. I hope I didn't cause any confusion, but I can imagine people sitting and wondering, Huh? How do these last two fit? Uh, including me.
My thoughts are this, I think the three La Jalousie stories do well alone, but they get great when combined. Well, actually, I think the first two do great combined. The third one, "Eddie" seems a little like a lost fish, dangling out there all alone. I'm wondering if it might help to also do 2 other stories (flash of course) that would finish out the Morse code analogy - a quick story about each of the other two affairs - or leave off the Eddie story. Of course the Eddie story is good, so that's why I'd suggest writing about the other two quick affairs .... and wouldn't it be cool for the stories to some how link and form a circle back to the first one? What if one of the short affairs was with a woman, Joseph's secretary or Eddie's wife. Maybe she has the same soap smell after a lunch with Lisa. I don't know, just free-thinking. But I like the ring of jealousy. Ring of Jealousy. Hmm, why can't I come up with titles for my own stories?
And now "Letter Opener"
The problem I had with this story is I was trying to fit it with the first three so it threw me off. When I read it alone, it has more impact. I think it might even be better if before she opens the letter there's a better clue as to what she thinks she's going to find. I actually thought she felt she was going to find something about sex, which she did, but maybe it would be more interesting if she thought she was going to find something about murder, or deceit. Well heck, maybe you could hint at deceit, but make the reader think the deceit is something other than sex. Then you would sort of have a double whammy and the " ...instead she found herself flipped into the wind like the ashes of a cigarette." would just go POW!
Finally, "In the Frame"
This may be my favorite. It's poetry. Of course anything written to try and decide why the Mona Lisa smirks is going to intrigue me. But here's the thing for me, I stated in another post about the pitfalls of writing superbly. When you write something that is still better than 95% of what everyone else is writing, it doesn't quite measure up. Measure up to your standards, that is.
Example, "She had pre-Raphaelite hair, heavy gold earrings, and a smoky, scoop neck velvet dress that fell past her calves. She was beautiful and mysterious and we hit it off rather well."
That's just sheer poetry. Perfect.
So later when it reads, "She had nice things in that house: tapestries, portraits, antiques." I was a little let down. I wanted more. I think it might be the antiques that disturbed me. Would she have antiques? Did they call them antiques then? Oh wait, they're at a bar in the beginning so it isn't meant to be in a different era. Well, shoot, now I think I don't like that they're in a bar in the beginning. But, continuing with my first thought, I think you can spare a few words to punch up the descriptions, gallooned tapestries, glossy portraits, gilded stemware ... Ugh! But I think you get my idea.
I've said it before, and I say it again. You're a gem. OK, I might not have said you're a gem, but surely I've said, you're writing shines. And it does!
Thanks for contributing these to the FishTank!
Des
From: Alexis Siefert
Re: La Jalousie, by Selena Jardine
Date: 20 Jun 2002 18:49:39 GMT
I'm piggy backing the Good Father's post - I've already accidentally dropped the original story posting.
Once again, time has slipped away, and I'm getting this in just under the one-week wire. Sorry, Selena, mea culpa, Des.
These stories presented a slight problem in that they're not "a story." This is essentially responding to three stories in one Tank session, so you'll hopefully forgive me if I stray from the guidelines a wee bit. I promise to follow the spirit, if not the letter, of the law <g> Because of that, I'm going to really only respond to the first three Jalousie stories and leave the other two alone. Of the five, Letter Opener is, in my opinion, the weakest of the batch, and has the least there to work with. In the Frame-well, we all know I'm a sucker for a well-crafted pun. There's a lot in that story to work with, and a lot that could be removed to give room for a bit more plot. I found myself skimming the 'Great Masters' comparisons-they came across as slightly pretentious-and in a story of 300 words or less, you don't want the reader skimming anything.
First of all, I'm very glad that Selena expanded 'Jalousie' to include Joseph's story. When I read Lisa's story in the duel, my response was, "Okay, good start, but where's the rest?" I know that many people will disagree with me, but a Flash story needs to be more than a scene in order to be a "Flash Story." That's the challenge of Flash.
We've can all write a coherent post in under 300 words, but does that make anything written in under 300 words Flash Fiction? Personally, I don't think so.
Jalousie (Lisa) presented that problem. Selena is a wonderful wordsmith. She can wring and twist 43 different meanings out of the same phrase, which gives the reader more insight into the character than the character herself has. Wonderful. Truly wonderful. I knew that there was more to the story when I reached then end of Lisa, and I knew that Joseph's story would complete it. Eddie's story seems gratuitous. There's not enough there (which is the limitation of Flash) to make me really think that he's changed his tune and allowed himself to fall for this woman. He's a tennis pro, and Selena goes to great pains in the first paragraph of the story to paint him as the stereotypical tennis pro, out for a good, quick, easy roll on the asphalt from women desperate to prove their worth and sexuality. There's nothing to make me believe that Lisa would be the type to get to him. There's honestly nothing appealing about her. This isn't a bad thing, necessarily. We don't have to like all of the characters we read to make them good characters-and Lisa and Joseph are good characters. That's one of Selena's big strengths-creating people, not characters.
So, my suggestion? Keep the Lisa and Joseph stories together. I don't need to see the other men that Lisa is involved with. If you want to keep Eddie in there, the entire thing needs to be expanded out of flash and into a full-length story. Develop Lisa more, give us a reason to believe that Eddie would fall so hard for her, when her own husband has so little respect for her.
If you want to keep it at Flash, expand your personal definition of Flash to under 500 words instead of the more limiting (and, imho more difficult) under 300 definition. As it stands, Lisa and Joseph together is 483 words. Cut some showy phrases (you've got access to several editors who are painfully talented at cutting phrases for the sake of avoiding "coyness"), add another 30 words of substance (perhaps pulling them together for Joseph's departure and Lisa's self-realization?). Selena can get enough out of a paragraph to tie it all together and wrap it up.
Alexis.
ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/Alexis_S/ http://www.asstr.org/~Alexis_S/ And, of course, The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/
From: H. Jeckyll
Re: La Jalousie, by Selena Jardine
Date: 20 Jun 2002 20:39:10 -0700
All the stories have in common reversals, someone not knowing what is really happening - though who doesn't know isn't always clear at first. Intentionally so, of course.
For me the first three work best. Like other commenters, I'm taken with how rich and nuanced the original 'flash' piece becomes, when changed from flash to flesh. The third is the weakest of those three, extraneous I think. The 'insight' of the lover doesn't ring true for me, that she does what she does because she loves her husband. Yes, the husband admits he is driven with want for his slut wife, but she doesn't know that, and, piling irony on irony, it drives him away even though he wants her. (of course his pulling away must be much later, as she's now had seven affairs instead of three - or is the jealous husband projecting?).
I had thought the fourth storyette was linked, and I rather wish it were. I thought it was going to be Lisa's "comeupance." Instead, it's an interesting reversal, though not so unusual as all that. The reason so many people stay closeted is that they will someday have to write "that" letter, and they can't stand to do it. It seems easier for Bill, who shows no concern for Carolyn at all.
The 'frame' story is interesting because of the juxtaposing of high art and antiques, on the one hand, and hard-bitten detective lingo on the other. The specific items may be important to Selena's portrait, and my lack of familiarity with some of them may keep me from getting more from this. What I do get is a fabulous Victorian dreamscape bounded by Sam Spade grittiness, with the dream leading the poor schnook astray in that gritty world. Poor guy. Lead me astray more.
Quibble: perhaps too many different things for a Fish Tank piece. That's minor. Best stuff: the first two linked parts and the Victorian (perhaps not Victorian, but close) house.
hj
From: DrSpin
Re: La Jalousie, by Selena Jardine
Date: 20 Jun 2002 23:12:14 -0700
In article <[email protected]>, Desdmona posted ...
The following is #44 in the FishTank. It is a group of Flash Stories with a common theme.
La Jalousie
By Selena Jardine
I offer comments with qualification. As Selena's Official Second in the duel with Alexis, I had prior knowledge of these Flash stories, so there's some insider trading going on here. Which is OK, as long as you know it.
In fact these stories posted in Fish Tank were those I "rejected" for the celebrated Flash duel. That does not mean they are awful, although I did regard them as inferior to those that were posted in the duel. You may disagree, but I had the call.
Most were among Selena's first efforts at writing Flash. She was still feeling her way with it. By heaven, though, she does learn quickly.
Of these in Fish Tank, the Letter story was the one I liked least. I thought the language used by the letter writer was stilted, unconvincing, artificial.
The "In The Frame" story was my first reserve for the duel.
I'm not going to attempt here to offer constructive suggestions on the stories. Selena already knows my views on them, and why they were held back. In general terms, I think she has moved well beyond these stories (in part because she went through the exercise of writing them). Three stories in particular that featured in the Gauntlets Duel - Paternoster, Jumping, and That's Amore - I thought were bloody superb.
DrSpin
* also at [email protected] and at http://www.ruthiesclub.com
From: Always Horny
Re: La Jalousie, by Selena Jardine
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 08:35:31 +0200
Desdmona wrote:
1) 2 positive comments
very well written. Nice flow, nice style, excellent execution.
The first two stories make a superb complement to each other.
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
As much as the first 2 vignettes bring a lot, the third one brings only one worthy sentence, IMO (She was fucking me because she loved her husband) and that isn't enough to keep up. The fourth one brings only a pun, but at rather great cost IMO.
A general comment, that I can not substantiate more than the feel of it: You can write great, and you know it. Well, watch out for not overdoing it. Your skill deserves better than being used to show off.
Congrats anyway.
AH
A_H_01 at hotmail. com
From: PleaseCain
Re: La Jalousie, by Selena Jardine
Date: 22 Jun 2002 19:58:04 GMT
Plenty of sweet touches sprinkled everywhere: "my lovely white virtual body"; his noting that she uses Ivory after after her trysts: "99 44-100% pure"; "In fact, you've probably been in my place. Between her thighs." - that first period is the perfect cadence, like the base-hit before the Monotones sing "Who wrote the book of love?"; "tanned blondes ... toast and honey"; all the fun art allusions in the final piece.
The first two stories are dynamite, individually, and especially together.
In the first piece, her tone is icy and calculating. It raises my hair. I know you didn't invent "freshly fucked," but your character vests it with full meaning. Bull's-eye.
Someone may already have mentioned this, but the third piece doesn't mean as much to me. It's not that the third character does not emerge - and even the first character is a little better defined here - but the guy is basically a scratching post, a dildo for her, insignificant to Lisa and to the primary husband-and-wife relationship driving the stories. Not a bad piece of its own, it's just retread.
Likewise, the last two stories aren't as strong. That's not a criticism, it's just that you won't hit a home run with every swing. I don't know what makes the difference between a "perfect cadence" and one long setup for a punchline, but you just keep writing, you know, keep putting stuff out there, because it's the only way you'll hit more home runs.
I enjoy your writing.
Cain
From: Always Horny
Re: La Jalousie, by Selena Jardine
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:37:12 +0200
I've just read Desd's post explaining that only the 1st 3 parts are linked.
In my first comment I was confused into trying to string all 5 together, hence the feeling that the further stories missed the tie-in with the first ones. With the explanation that they are in fact not meant to be linked, my comment on "showing off" is not justified.
And btw, the pun is in the 5th, not 4th. Both are fine flash-stories on their own, they just would not add as a continuation of the first 2 or 3.
Still one suggestion: In the last story, the last sentence appears superfluous, to me.
FWIW
AH
A_H_01 at hotmail. com
From: Souvie
Re: La Jalousie, by Selena Jardine
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:52:31 -0400
On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:36:07 -0400, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote:
The following is #44 in the FishTank. It is a group of Flash Stories with a common theme. In Selena's own words:
The first three of these flash stories are linked together. "Jalousie" in French means jealousy, of course, the theme of these stories, but it also means a certain kind of shutter, designed for spying, that allows you to see out but does not allow anyone else to see in. (The first was posted in the duel.)
The word count is supplied before each piece. FishTank guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
The late thing again, etc. etc. blah blah. <g>
Positive: I like that Selena makes flash fiction look so damn easy!
Positive: The last one was favorite. I'm going against the grain here, when most everyone else liked the first two best. But the art historian in me knows the artists referenced VERY well and so it garners a soft spot in my heart.
Negatives: Took me a while to realize that only the first three were supposed to be connected. Dunno why I didn't realize it sooner.
Negative: I would have posted the first three by themselves and maybe saved the last two for a separate FT submission.
- Souvie
From: Selena Jardine
Re: La Jalousie, by Selena Jardine
Date: 9 Jul 2002 09:25:04 -0700
First of all, forgive me for the two-week lateness of this post – my FishTank submission went up just as I was about to move house, and I’ve been rather busy ever since. I've been meaning to thank everyone for their help and suggestions all this time, but this is really the first moment I've had to do it. So thanks!
I was sorry about the confusion that made people think all five of the flashes were supposed to be linked together. That undoubtedly caused some scratching of heads, since "Letter Opener" and "In the Frame" had nothing to do with the first three, or even with the theme of jealousy. That was my fault, since I didn’t make it clear to Des.
Thanks to those who commented on punctuation mistakes.
Oosh, thank you for your kind comments. But if you had to read "Letter Opener" three times, then it needs at least another pass through the wringer. Flash fiction shouldn't be convoluted enough to confuse and tangle the reader; the 300 words should be of great clarity and present a (very small) story arc. I appreciate your pointing it out.
Alexis, your incisive comments were extremely helpful. I think your analysis of Lisa, Joseph, and Eddie as characters placed a finger on those wriggling people and pinned them to the board. That ought to make it easier for me to see what to do with them next. I think you're right: cut, cut, cut. Ruthlessness is difficult once a piece has been written, but it may be necessary to make it better. Thank you for the excellent suggestions.
Mat, thank you for your comment – very well put – that I strive a little too hard for the punchline. That’s hard not to do in flash fiction. A longer story has more time to come to a natural end; flash has to establish character and story and an effective tie-off in a mere 300 words, and that's its challenge. I think you're right that a more relaxed approach, not going for the knockout every time, would perhaps serve me better in some cases, but there has to be some closure there. A difficult balance to strike.
Desdmona – great suggestions! Since flash is so addictive (as you know), I may well try to add some stories to the Lisa-Joseph-Eddie triangle. But objections that that ain't flash are fairly legit, in my opinion, so we'll have to see. I may be forcibly restrained. And I think you are spot-on about what is wrong with "Letter Opener." That will be an enormous help when I rewrite that one.
HJ and PleaseCain – another two who don't find Eddie convincing! Poor Eddie. Well, I think the consensus is more or less that he's got to go, or at least stand on his own two tennis-shoed feet. Thank you both for the insights, and for the praise for "In the Frame" and Lisa's story. You are quite right that the more I swing the bat, the more often I hit something.
Thanks, everyone, for your help. Sorry again for the lateness of my response. This is twice now I have submitted something to the FT, and twice that I have found it an excellent writer's tool. Much appreciated.
Selena
[email protected]
From: john
Re: La Jalousie, by Selena Jardine
Date: 21 Jul 2002 22:23:49 -0700
La Jalousie by Selena Jardine
Better late than never? We'll see.
I'm, first off, impressed - that's coming from a mumbler who can't say "good morning" in under 300 words. Especially in La Jalousie you said a ton with few words. The analysis of that emotion was absorbing. Jealousy as a yardstick, as a weapon, as a motive. Please don't lose Eddie. He reminds us what jealousy really is (perhaps that's why so many found it 'common.' ) - ego. Not as clever as the first two, but he helps the reader see that all their forms of jealousy are really ego too. Quite nice!! In fact, I'd second Des. Do more; not less. (Instead of Spoon River, Sherwood Anderson popped into my mind.)
For the Rom fest I tried a flash. I thought the limit was 700. I was overjoyed when I got it pared to that. Then crushed when I reviewed the rules. Each word must be put to task, argued and defended. I admire your skill at that. I thought you did it best in "In the Frame" although the story line was thin. [If I ever frame someone, I'll try to give them a motive.] And I agree with Henri that a Bill and John couple is not all that amazing in the 21st century, not enough to make a story.
In Lisa and Joseph especially there are places that I'd quibble with your words and rhythms. [a pang of jealousy or suspicion ] The paragraph is about suspicions; why mention jealousy just yet? [my lovely white virtual body] How does white contribute? Aren't three adjectives enough? [I'll sit next to him ] next to Joseph, since him refered to a cyber lover. Too small to mention in a longer story. But in 300 words ... is perfection not expected. The good lines abound! They've been italicized by others. I salute them and admire what you have done.
John
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From: Father Ignatius
Re: La Jalousie, by Selena Jardine
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 23:20:13 +0200
"Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
Positives:
1. What a pleasure to read an offering so solidly literate. Thank you!
2. Lovely turns of phrase: "Three affairs, a Morse code: two shorts and a long."
Negatives:
FT is not a Flash forum, of course, but these are FlashFic and a FlashFic tells a story in 300 words or less. What Selena has done is to expand the form into a series of linked FlashFics. In effect, she's telling a story in 900 words or less. Not an FT issue, I think, but it ain't FlashFic in my book.
Humph. Pseudo-intellectual masturbation. ;-)
Damn good effort, though. For a woman. ;-)
Nat
"Father Ignatius" <Father Ignatius at ANTISPAMananzi dot co dot za> http://www.asstr.org/~FatherIgnatius/Stories.html The Web's Best Illustrated Adult Fiction is at http://www.ruthiesclub.com/