The separator between the comment pane and the story pane is moveable. Drag it up or down if you need more room to read on the screen.
From: Bradley Stoke
Re: The Fish Tank, by theGreatxIam
Date: 23 Jul 2002 10:43:31 -0700
theGreatxIam
A very impressive little narrative. Quite different from the stuff we normally get to see on ASSM, and none the worse for that. Unfortunately for me, I started reading all sorts of significance in the story once I saw Desdmona's name in there, along with the Fish Tank of course. I'm sure. I'm positive. It can't possibly be. That "our" Desdmona has anything in common with the harridan in this fiction (unless it's with reference to her long-lasting beauty). And I know with even more certainty that the "Brad" in the story is not me. I don't think a Baptist would ever take a shine on me! And I'm not at all religious.
It's a little unfair that this is just the second chapter of the story, as all we get is the flavour. But a quite tasty flavour it is too, although the sarcasm tends to be a little heavily applied. I liked the humour in the tale. There wasn't enough to get me laughing out loud, but I'm a pretty sour kind of character, (although I'd have no trouble about owning up to stained underpants!) So one positive thing is the humour.
Another positive thing (in my mind) is the very vivid image of Desdmona. Even though the real "Desdmona" is an angel, a saint and (undoubtedly) a delight to behold, the horrible one in this story was very believable. In fact, although she's the villain of the piece, she's the one that I was most interested in reading about.
I have two reservations with your story. The first is the heavy use of irony and sarcasm. I think it could be lightened a little bit. It's a difficult one to tackle though, because the humour of the language is very much about making sly, comic references and I recognise some of the style from the National Lampoon, but I sometimes felt the authorial intervention a little heavy-handed at times.
My other reservation is similar in that the characters in the "Fish Tank" (an interesting variation on the cardboard box world of the real "Big Brother") tend towards being caricatures rather than real people. Brad obviously. We know he's a pious hypocrite, and we know that a lot of televangelists are exactly that, but there's no other depth to him. And although, this episode focused on Pete and Desdmona, I didn't feel that I'd got to know Pete any better at all. Inevitably, it's easier to portray people as ghastly in humorous prose rather than complex or well rounded, but I felt more depth would have helped.
Not bad at all. ASSD needs more of your piercing humour and pithy wit. I look forward to the final novel.
Bradley Stoke
http://www.asstr.org/~Bradley_Stoke
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: The Fish Tank, by theGreatxIam
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 21:02:40 -0500
On Mon, 22 Jul 2002 09:32:00 -0400, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote:
First, the whole infighting stupidity of shows like Survivor is captured pretty well. I can't say that I like it. My half-hearted attempts to do some sort of parody in a strongly sexual vein (for no ratings cable for example) went nowhere because I can't stomach the "research" needed to please the fans of the genre.
But that aside, it seems done kind of nicely. The tale revolves almost entirely around the personalities interacting, not their artificial environment.
Except, and maybe this is something missing in the first chapter, where is the reactions to the exposed situation? The transparent walls don't seem to change how the people act or live. Maybe it isn't easy to see into bedrooms and stuff, but it sounded like everything was entirely clear throughout.
In which case, would the players do everything out in the open? For that matter, what about camera placement, crew, producers, and other staff on site?
I mean, with cameras all around, especially perhaps hidden ones, there aren't any secrets. The transparent walls should mean that everyone in the place can see everyone, in other rooms, doing whatever they do.
Yet the infighting seems to be all on personal things, with not much worry about private embarrassments. Maybe with the lights out, no one can see that much. But turn on some lights, and you can see anything and everything (not even counting any outside lights helping with the situation).
I don't want to burst the bubble or throw stones at a glass house, but that seems like something worth covering. What exactly are the rules for concealing things inside the place? Can you just drape sheets or whatever to make the walls opaque, or is that against the rules?
One would think that changing clothes, showering, and other activities so exposed would be a big part of the show, and a major topic of discussion.
I don't see much sign that everyone is all exhibitionists or anything like that. The mere stress of frequent TV coverage (maybe constant, can't see for sure that there is any off-camera time) would be enough. Even "Real Life" sorts of TV shows, set in homes/apartment with cameras on most of the day, have some areas of privacy and avoid the Big Brother/Forbin Project level of participant paranoia. Whereas if both sound and image are always being recorded, I can definitely see strong efforts made by the players to defeat that spying. Any partners definitely should come up with something, even if it is a simple bit of coding and signing.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: PleaseCain
Re: The Fish Tank, by theGreatxIam
Date: 26 Jul 2002 20:20:33 GMT
I had difficulty separating the introduction from the actual "story," which can be either very good or very bad. There is no law that says every story needs to follow a conventional structure, so looking at it one way, you have quite the natural voice going, like the direct voyeurism you write about here, just us watching your characters, with no author obtruding. In other words, just what we want to accomplish as writers.
On the other hand, and especially since this is a story-fragment, it's difficult to gauge the piece. Through these slats, with this beginning and this ending, I can't tell. There is an awful lot of narrative between actual scenes. And not much hint at how the couplings or the sex will be unfurled. I guess I might recommend more foreshadowing, just a few tiny hints, to introduce tension and lay the groundwork for whatever you've got planned for later.
That said, I like Pete and Desdmona, especially her. She has the beginnings of a good character, a nice mix of traits. Adding something sympathetic, other than her good looks, might strengthen her even more. Make her a nurse!
I like your sense of parody. Your humor strikes home with me, all the clever remarks you've planted throughout. I love stories like these when they are well done. I hope you submit more to the group.
Cain
From: Mat Twassel
Re: The Fish Tank, by theGreatxIam
Date: 26 Jul 2002 20:47:16 GMT
The delivery is smooth. Sometimes we get a tad too much. For example:
"But - " The host tried to recover. "But she's called you a bland, blithering idiot. When Fred (a quickly departed player) ended up in the master bedroom with her, she almost ripped his - ah - "
Almost too late, the host - his name is as forgettable as his talent - remembered that "ripped his balls off" would not meet broadcast standards.
"Almost injured him," he ended lamely. "She's called every other player a fool. She reduced every other woman to tears at least once." <
I don't think the middle paragraph is necessary. Not a big thing in broad comedy.
There are some really funny moments. My favorite is:
On the audio of the show, you can hear an odd noise then. It was the sound of a hundred Baptists turning their backs. <
I think there might be a few sections where we go too long without real action, where we have too much summary and narration at a distance. The stretch leading up to the show-down, the part beginning on the heels of the sound of the hundred Baptists turning their backs, was both a little slow and a little confusing. Consider either adding immediate detail to alleviate the long stretch of summary, or streamlining, that is summarizing even more.
- Mat Twassel
Mat's Erotic Calendar at http://calendar.atEros.com
From: Ray
Re: The Fish Tank, by theGreatxIam
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 15:06:40 -0400
Up For Review:
The Fish Tank (no sex yet)
By theGreatxIam
First, your opening and the description of "The Fish Tank" TV Show, pretty well defines all of the reality TV Shows like Survivor and the Mole, et al., All of which began with those disgusting scandal and gossip programs carried to extremes in the 80's and 90's.
From a few comments during the story and your 'ending notation', I get the feeling that Pete is a lot more duplicitous and manipulative than he has yet shown .... so far allowing each of the other characters to establish themselves and assert their personalities before the camera before he makes his own moves.
In the Laundry room, you have Des looking at Pete "through half-lidded eyes" .... I think this may work better if she is looking through "narrowed eyes" ... you are already establishing her as a forthright and outspoken person who trusts none of the others a bit. She looks on every contact and approach with suspicion .... "Half-lidded" can be interpreted many way, including as a come-on and with sexual over tones. "Narrowed eyes" will basically be interpreted as an "Okay, what's the game you are playing now?" comment.
I also liked the impression of befuddlement and confusion for Des, and her inability to easily 'deal with' Pete's approach in this situation. An open and honest person will often need a bit of time to reformulate her approach for the new situation when it forces a change in her plans.
Last comment: In the final paragraphs, when Des confronts and tries to 'use' Pete and their 'supposed' alliance. If you are planning to develop Pete as I've indicated, then just before Des leaps at him and begins beating on his chest, have her look searchingly into his eyes ... nothing more .... no further elaboration .... she simply looks into his eyes searchingly after he says she's on her own, then leaps at him. It will provide a tiny hint towards later developments in Pete's character without any elaboration.
I'm looking forward to seeing and reading the entire series on ASSM. Should be fun <g>
Ray
From: theGreatxIam
Re: The Fish Tank, by theGreatxIam
Date: 27 Jul 2002 11:01:11 -0700
Thanks to everyone. It was difficult, I'm sure, to deal with such a relatively long piece and one that's only an excerpt, but you produced very thoughtful commentaries.
john:
"It's everyone for himself ...
Might your curmudgeon not say: "herself"
Absolutely.
No one knew if her beauty was just skin deep, because her unformed 19-year-old personality didn't even sink in that far. The comma isn't needed, and, maybe, "had yet to pentrate even that far" would be smoother or clearer.
Hmm. I'd still vote for the comma; the pause (in my ear, at least) ties the because to "no one knew," where it belongs, rather than "just skin deep." But, rereading what I just wrote, you're right that it needs rewriting.
Bradley Stoke:
No similarity to any real persons was implied by using Desdmona as the name of a less-than-angelic character. (Though before we canonize her as a saint, let's ask her if she wouldn't rather be something of a sinner!)
The first is the heavy use of irony and sarcasm. I think it could be
lightened a
little bit .... I sometimes felt the authorial intervention a little
heavy-handed at
times.
This comes up in some of the other critiques as well. It's true that the humor is laid on with a shovel in this story, but that's a matter of taste. I wouldn't normally use such a heavy hand, but as an experiment I enjoyed it and think I'll leave it in.
My other reservation is similar in that the characters in the "Fish Tank" tend towards being caricatures rather than real people.
Aside from Des and Pete, the other characters are doomed to fade away quickly. I'd agree that even so they are on the one-note side, but then I'd argue that such is just a slightly parodied mirror of these shows in real life. (I'll be posting separately an interesting article I ran across this week about the British Big Brother.)
Jeff Zephyr:
where is the reactions to the exposed situation?
Good question. In fact, that issue is addressed elsewhere in the story. You'll see some of the things you discussed popping up. But I did wonder about whether I needed to pump it up even more. In the end, I decided that it would be more realistic (as far as anything in the story is realistic) to have reaction to the situation come only in extreme circumstances. One thing about these reality shows is that by the second season, all the players "get" the concept and aren't reacting normally. My story picks up halfway through the fifth season, when I would assume everyone would forget the glass walls most of the time, just as documentary subjects end up forgetting the cameras.
One would think that changing clothes, showering, and other activities so exposed would be a big part of the show, and a major topic of discussion.
If you read the full version when I post, you'll see that these very things are addressed. We're on the same wavelength.
Any partners definitely should come up with something, even if it is a simple bit of coding and signing.
An interesting point, and one that hadn't occurred to me. I'll have to think about that, although one thing to consider is that the partners in the story aren't exactly teaming up.
PleaseCain:
There is an awful lot of narrative between actual scenes. And not much hint at how the couplings or the sex will be unfurled.
I will plead guilty to getting carried away with the background in this story - and this excerpt doesn't give you the half of it. I am loath to slice away at it, but you're right that the first chapter, which you haven't seen, needs to provide some hint of good times ahead to carry readers through the parts where nothing much happens. i think I know how to do that.
Adding something sympathetic, other
than her good looks, might strengthen her even more. Make her a nurse!
Another case where I was glad to see critiquers thinking along the same lines as the story will progress; gives me confidence that the piece works. Des does get some softening later on.
Mat Twassel:
I don't think the middle paragraph is necessary. Not a big thing in broad comedy.
Good call on the graf you suggest dropping.
I think there might be a few sections where we go too long without
real action,
where we have too much summary and narration at a distance.
Given the length of the whole story, I think the passages you mentioned are more reasonable. On the other hand, I'm probably too enamored of the background stuff to consider it objectively.
Ray:
In the Laundry room, you have Des looking at Pete "through
half-lidded eyes"
.... I think this may work better if she is looking through "narrowed eyes"
Good, subtle point.
Back to me ...
One comment in general, to the questions about how broad the humor was. This was a departure from my usual style, if I can be said to have one. Trying to follow the guidelines suggested for a FishTank anniversary story seemed to suggest going for the big gesture, what with working in names and anniversaries and tanks. That suggested not only the heavy auctorial voice but also the idea of a parody.
What's interesting to me is that several folks were struck by the heavy humor and parody of reality TV, but no one noted the other parody lying beneath (apparently more subtle, though i didn't think so). There's a reason the main male character is named Pete. "They call you plain Kate, and bonny Kate, and sometimes Kate the shrew ..." Well, I thought it was unsubtle. Back to the irony mines, I guess.
theGreatxIam
Note that all the comments archived here were culled from active discussions occuring in the Usenet newsgroup alt.sex.stories.d. If you want to contribute to the discussion, please join us in ASSD and say your piece. Everyone is welcome.
If you do not know how to read Usenet newsgroups, there is a nice, free web interface on Google: http://groups.google.com/. If you have any problems, send us email. If we're lucky, we'll get you set up and contributing in no time!
If you have not done so, please read the Comment Guidelines. We ask that all comments include two positive remarks and two suggestions for improvement. Please, try not to repeat!
From: john
Re: The Fish Tank, by theGreatxIam
Date: 22 Jul 2002 23:15:06 -0700
The Fish Tank by theGreatxIam
Confession. I think, to appreciate this story one has to have some familiarity with the genre of Reality TV. I don't. It doesn't seem real, and it does seem like television. Strike two. This critique, therefore, may be traded in for a single grain of salt at any participating restaurant.
I did laugh out loud at the WWF battle between Des and Pete.
I thought of Mark Twain at his best.
And I imagined the glass house, and admired the writer's ability to resist "stowing thrones" or whatever. I couldn't have. Oh, no. I also thought your lovely speech to the audience about windows in such a house was, if not Shakespearean, at least eloquent. Indeed.
Two suggestions.
Might your curmudgeon not say: "herself" ?
The comma isn't needed, and, maybe, "had yet to pentrate even that far" would be smoother or clearer. Or maybe not. As it, it needs some work for sure.
What a project! Good luck with it.
John