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From: Mat Twassel
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: 20 Jun 2002 03:37:58 GMT
Suggestions:
1. Some of the dialogue tags are a little iffy.
"Uh ... I don't THINK so," I worried back a reply.
"Mike! Jerry!" Mom's sharp yelp stopped me and my brothers. "Is that your cum running down your sister's leg?" she accused.
(In this second example you don't need the tag at all.)
I thought it was interesting that many of the mom's utterences are qualified with "almost." She almost screamed. An almost disgusted tone to her voice. She said almost conversationally. The plight of hte almost mom. It's funny. I'm not sure it's a weakness - maybe it's a strength.
2. The sequence seems somehow off in the section below. It starts out with Dad just jerking the last of his stuff and then a short time later he's doing it again or still or what?
In the morning, I woke up when Mom went to take her shower and Dad rolled me over to get on top. Dad was just jerking the last of his stuff inside me, when Mom returned; drying her hair with a towel. Though Mom couldn't exactly SEE what was going on under the covers, it must have been obvious, as I had my legs wrapped around her husband; pulling his body into mine as Dad rutted and jerked inside me. "When you two are finished," she said with an annoyed look and an almost disgusted sound to her voice, "I'll have breakfast ready. SOME of us have better things to do than just fuck all day long." Only ... For all that, Mom didn't leave. She just stood there and watched while Dad's movements and mine got more and more frantic; and eventually he started the same familiar jerks and thrusts that Mike and Jerry usually give when
Things that worked:
1. The fish tank analogy is a neat idea, but sometimes it seems a little forced and not fully realized. So I guess this is both a stength and a weakness. In other words I think the fishtank plot and theme is fine but some detail and refinement work is needed.
2. The characters come across well. I was really pleased that the mom didn't fall into the didactic routines of so many McCoy moms. The result is that this story is much lighter. But it's lighter in general: Except for the things I've mentioned, the sentences flow well as does the story.
- Mat Twassel
Mat's Erotic Calendar at http://calendar.atEros.com
From: Desdmona
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 13:03:03 -0400
The Fish Tank
An Erotic Story
By Frank McCoy [email protected]
<Sigh> Where do I begin, I don't like incest stories. I just don't like them. It's hard to get past that when I'm trying to comment in the FishTank. There will be those devoted fans to incest that will find this story to their liking. I'm just not one of them.
To begin with, let's go beyond any society issue, incest stories are cheats! It's a way of creating a stroke story without having to define characters. In incest stories you don't have to build any kind of relationship.
And that's what this story does. It's a family - brother, brother, sister, mom, and dad. We don't know anything about them except there's sex between them. What other kind of story is this acceptable? Even your most basic stroke story has to start somewhere, even if it's something as simple as, "She met him at the bar, they danced, they chatted, they left together."
The other thing that really bugs me about this story is, how it's suppose to be the norm. The idea that this might be considered believable is just too far-fetched. Mom finds daughter and sons locked in a suck and fuck fest and the punishment is daughter will now sleep naked with mom and naked dad. Huh? Where do these people live? Even in the remotest areas, I'm hard-pressed to believe it happens without some shock. Goodness, even on the Jerry Springer show, there's some shock, guilt, fear, nausea, regret ...some emotion besides passivity.
And make me understand why a 13 year old girl is having free-for-all sex with brothers and boyfriend and yet, she doesn't know what "cum" is. Which brings me to the positive, is this a parody? Brother, if that's what it's suppose to be then you've done a whale of a job. And the last line is perfect! Who cares if it's believable or not, it's funny! "I thought you said cum was white and thick!?" It's a great punch-line if the whole thing is meant to be funny.
I cracked up at, "Mike! Jerry!" Mom's sharp yelp stopped me and my brothers. "Is that your cum running down your sister's leg?"
I can imagine the whole scene on a Saturday Night Live Skit. "The Clampetts Do Each Other" or something.
I hope I haven't offended you, Frank. I'm seriously very appreciative of the fact that you took the time to participate in the anniversary. I have a feeling that by writing these types of stories, you hear a lot more derision about incest than anything I brought up. but I was just thinking, what if he didn't mean it as a parody, but son, if you didn't, you need to rethink your talent. You've got a superb way of writing superlative incest. And with an open mind it's down-right hysterical.
Des
From: Frank McCoy
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: 21 Jun 2002 18:09:27 GMT
"Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote:
The Fish Tank
An Erotic Story
By Frank McCoy [email protected]
<Sigh> Where do I begin, I don't like incest stories. I just don't like them. It's hard to get past that when I'm trying to comment in the FishTank. There will be those devoted fans to incest that will find this story to their liking. I'm just not one of them.
Sorry.
To begin with, let's go beyond any society issue, incest stories are cheats! It's a way of creating a stroke story without having to define characters. In incest stories you don't have to build any kind of relationship.
Oh, quite true!
I'm afraid that's one of the main reasons I like them.
And that's what this story does. It's a family - brother, brother, sister, mom, and dad. We don't know anything about them except there's sex between them. What other kind of story is this acceptable? Even your most basic stroke story has to start somewhere, even if it's something as simple as, "She met him at the bar, they danced, they chatted, they left together."
Uhuh. ALL the buildup, and character-determination is left to the mind of the reader; as to what he/she thinks would make a sexy Mom, Sis, or Brother.
That is both a failure, AND a distinct advantage.
The other thing that really bugs me about this story is, how it's suppose to be the norm. The idea that this might be considered believable is just too far-fetched. Mom finds daughter and sons locked in a suck and fuck fest and the punishment is daughter will now sleep naked with mom and naked dad. Huh? Where do these people live? Even in the remotest areas, I'm hard-pressed to believe it happens without some shock. Goodness, even on the Jerry Springer show, there's some shock, guilt, fear, nausea, regret ...some emotion besides passivity.
Um ... Not passivity so much as just enjoying what seems there to be the normal flow of things. Since nobody (other than perhaps Mom, and only a little bit) seems to think there's anything wrong, the idea of guilt (to that family) at having sex would seem like the idea of feeling guilty at taking a shit would to you or me. (SOME people actually DO feel guilty at such bodily functions!)
If nobody ever taught you it was impolite to burp or pick your nose ....
And make me understand why a 13 year old girl is having free-for-all sex with brothers and boyfriend and yet, she doesn't know what "cum" is. Which brings me to the positive, is this a parody? Brother, if that's what it's suppose to be then you've done a whale of a job. And the last line is perfect! Who cares if it's believable or not, it's funny! "I thought you said cum was white and thick!?" It's a great punch-line if the whole thing is meant to be funny.
Well ... Yes it is.
But you've got to examine WHY it is funny, to get to the real point.
It seems funny to US, because to US it's obvious.
Like watching an unsophisticate deal for the first time with a
revolving-door.
It ain't funny to the person who just came out where he came in; though we're rolling on the floor in laughter.
As to parody ... Yes, but only of our society.
If it seems a little unbelievable, consider that for ME, that was just the way things were when I was about that age.
At about 8-10 years old, kids my age learned that it felt GOOD to play with ourselves ... and we had to be damned careful Mom and Dad never caught us doing so. We weren't exactly sure why though.
We had SOME idea that having sex made babies ... mostly from corny jokes and terrible poems, like:
"Down on the beach, where nobody goes," "There sat Jane, without any clothes." "Along came Frank, a swinging his cane." "Down went the zipper, and out it came!" "Three months later, all was well." "Six months later, Jane began to swell." "Nine months later, and out it came." "Another little dickhead, swinging his cane!"
That sort of thing WAS our "sex education". Because of that, we knew that boys put their "things" in girls, and the girls had babies because of that ... Uh, maybe. Oh yeah, and it felt good. Later, when we reached puberty, usually we (the boys) made some connection between ejaculating and having sex and (possibly) babies.
Again, corny old poems were our "lessons":
"Under the old Model-T"
"That's where Carrie first showed it to me."
"It was hairy and black,"
"and she called it her 'crack',"
"But it looked like a manhole to me!"
"So I took out my big ten-foot-pole,"
"And shoved it down Carrie's manhole."
"She started to scream,"
"when I turned on the cream!"
"Under the old Model-T!"
Girls that age, unless their mothers were far more sophisticated than average, most likely didn't know about such details as a man ejaculating, unless they actually had experience with older boys.
As to the boys (like me, and the others, at that age) we didn't know about "cum". "Squirting", "the juices", "stuff", and other terms, but not "cum". I actually never heard the term "cum" until I was in my twenties.
So ... examine the story, with that in mind. I deliberately gave NO indication of when the story takes place, or even where. It could be 40 or 50 years ago ... or as far into the future. All it is, is someplace, somewhere, somewhen, when and where a particular family doesn't have the same hangups about sex that we, in our society, tend to expect EVERYBODY to have ... and thus it seems humorous (to us) that a girl that age wouldn't know "the obvious" (to us) fact that "cum" is the white stuff a boy ejaculates inside a girl to make a baby.
But ... Isn't that often the basis for a lot of humor ... if not most? Somebody else's ignorance making them look (to a sophisticate in such matters) like a fool ... when said person most obviously is NOT a fool, but merely lacking knowledge that we have.
I cracked up at, "Mike! Jerry!" Mom's sharp yelp stopped me and my brothers. "Is that your cum running down your sister's leg?"
I can imagine the whole scene on a Saturday Night Live Skit. "The Clampetts Do Each Other" or something.
Exactly!
WHY exactly are the Clampetts so funny?
They are NOT dumb, just unsophisticated in things WE all take for
granted that, "Everybody knows."
Only ... Everybody doesn't.
And it seems hilarious to us to watch (or read about) somebody else
finding out ... sometimes with disastrous results.
I hope I haven't offended you, Frank.
Offended me?
I about fell out of my chair laughing when I read your comments.
By FAR the most enjoyable reading, (and insightful too) of all those made.
I'm seriously very appreciative of the fact that you took the time to participate in the anniversary. I have a feeling that by writing these types of stories, you hear a lot more derision about incest than anything I brought up.
Actually ... No. ;-{
By far way too much of the response I get is all positive.
Insightful comments that pick apart such stories (like yours) is all
too rare; and thus far more valued.
Especially that note about incest stories being cheats. They are. I just hadn't noticed before. It give ME insight into why I like to write (and read) them.
but I was just thinking, what if he
didn't mean it as a parody, but son, if you didn't, you need to rethink your talent. You've got a superb way of writing superlative incest. And with an open mind it's down-right hysterical.
Well, the IDEA of many of my stories (including most definitely this one) is to be funny.
But that humor is also intended to be a sneaky kind of propaganda, too. Not just my usual propaganda about how CARING is what is most important in a relationship, not who, when, how, or where. But (in this case at least) propaganda about what's funny, and why.
Yeah, sly and sneaky.
It's funny to US to watch the guy slip on the banana-peel he doesn't see ... or to read about the girl in this story who MIGHT have unexpected consequences 9 months later, because she doesn't (even yet) know what "cum" is.
But it ain't funny to the guy who busts his nose, or the girl, either.
The point of the propaganda?
Ignorance is NOT bliss.
Thanks for your comments.
By FAR the best of the lot.
/ ' / ™
,-/-, . __ /
(/ / ((/|/ / </ <
From: Always Horny
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 08:35:30 +0200
Des,
I really wish YOU would warn people when there is reason to, the author doesn't. If you really don't want to specify what, at least "Caution" doesn't cost much. (On this one I warned myself, I now Frank. But obviously Jim didn't)
1) 2 positive comments
The flow of the narration is matter-of-fact, no-other-questions-asked. In this context, it is almost, er, refreshing. [In spite of the topic (M/g, parent/kid) which is rather squicky to me, and frankly, in the FT context, rather gross IMO when uncoded. But hey, Frank and his buddies ... I guess we can consider ourselves happy he didn't choose Pedo]
The discrepancy between what is going on and how it is narrated is jarring, and almost reaches to the humorous, at times.
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
IMO the story would definitely benefit from more substance to the characters and to their emotions. Otherwise it's rather mechanical pumping.
An other route could be to increase a little the naive/unsuspecting tone of the girl, to go more towards a purely humorous scene.
FWIW
AH
A_H_01 at hotmail. com
From: Gary Jordan
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: 21 Jun 2002 08:23:30 GMT
I really only have one comment - are submissions for Conjugate's Naive Nympho Challenge still being accepted? This one would seem to belong.
Gary Jordan
"Old submariners never die; they just don't get to go down as often."
<I>"This communicating of a man's self to his friend works two contrary
effects, for it redoubleth joys, and cutteth griefs in half." - Francis Bacon,
Essays </I>
From: Frank McCoy
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: 21 Jun 2002 17:24:17 GMT
[email protected] (Gary Jordan) wrote:
I really only have one comment - are submissions for Conjugate's Naive Nympho Challenge still being accepted? This one would seem to belong.
Damn, you're right. It very DEFINITELY would. Probably better than a Fish Tank submission.
/ ' / ™
,-/-, . __ /
(/ / ((/|/ / </ <
From: dennyw
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 01:28:15 -0700
On Fri, 21 Jun 2002 08:35:30 +0200, [email protected] (Always Horny) held forth, saying:
[In spite of the topic (M/g, parent/kid) which is rather squicky to me, and frankly, in the FT context, rather gross IMO when uncoded. But hey, Frank and his buddies ... I guess we can consider ourselves happy he didn't choose Pedo]
Erm. What def. of Pedo is AH using that doesn't include M/g (whether parent/kid or not)?????????
-denny- (curmudgeon)
"There are two tragedies in life.
One is to lose your heart's desire. The other is to gain it."
- G.B. Shaw
From: Frank McCoy
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: 21 Jun 2002 17:25:30 GMT
[email protected] wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jun 2002 08:35:30 +0200, [email protected] (Always Horny) held forth, saying:
[In spite of the topic (M/g, parent/kid) which is rather squicky to me, and frankly, in the FT context, rather gross IMO when uncoded. But hey, Frank and his buddies ... I guess we can consider ourselves happy he didn't choose Pedo]
Erm. What def. of Pedo is AH using that doesn't include M/g (whether parent/kid or not)?????????
Pre-teen, I assume.
Of course ... The younger boy (only a tiny part in the story) was 12
....
/ ' / ™
,-/-, . __ /
(/ / ((/|/ / </ <
From: Always Horny
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 13:10:42 +0200
[email protected] wrote:
(Always Horny) held forth, saying:
[In spite of the topic (M/g, parent/kid) which is rather squicky to me, and frankly, in the FT context, rather gross IMO when uncoded. But hey, Frank and his buddies ... I guess we can consider ourselves happy he didn't choose Pedo]
Erm. What def. of Pedo is AH using that doesn't include M/g (whether parent/kid or not)?????????
The girl here is menstruating. Say 12 or so. The "usual" definition of PEDO I've seen around ASS* is more like 6 and under. Sometimes even toddlers. (I might be wrong here, I'm no expert. And I skip those stories when I can).
"Around ASS*" is important here. Ofc IRL some people will use PEDO for even 15 yo. Not referring either to any legal definitions.
...and AFAIK Frank has committed some stories where the victim is very young (3yo IIRC from a flamewar with a bloke who has left since, whose name escapes me. Not fully sure, tho, I did not read th story myself) And to many people that is an order of magnitude more squicky than "just" raping a pre-teen. That's what my comment referred to. It could have been way worse.
AH
A_H_01 at hotmail. com
From: dennyw
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 13:05:54 -0700
On Sat, 22 Jun 2002 13:10:42 +0200, [email protected] (Always Horny) held forth, saying:
[email protected] wrote:
(Always Horny) held forth, saying:
[In spite of the topic (M/g, parent/kid) which is rather squicky to me, and frankly, in the FT context, rather gross IMO when uncoded. But hey, Frank and his buddies ... I guess we can consider ourselves happy he didn't choose Pedo]
Erm. What def. of Pedo is AH using that doesn't include M/g (whether parent/kid or not)?????????
The girl here is menstruating. Say 12 or so. The "usual" definition of PEDO I've seen around ASS* is more like 6 and under. Sometimes even toddlers. (I might be wrong here, I'm no expert. And I skip those stories when I can).
"Around ASS*" is important here. Ofc IRL some people will use PEDO for even 15 yo. Not referring either to any legal definitions.
...and AFAIK Frank has committed some stories where the victim is very young (3yo IIRC from a flamewar with a bloke who has left since, whose name escapes me. Not fully sure, tho, I did not read th story myself) And to many people that is an order of magnitude more squicky than "just" raping a pre-teen. That's what my comment referred to. It could have been way worse.
AH
Note that I quoted from your comment "[M/g]" - which by def. is adult male, girl of under 12.
Which is fairly universally within the def. of pedo.
-denny- (curmudgeon)
"There are two tragedies in life.
One is to lose your heart's desire. The other is to gain it."
- G.B. Shaw
From: Desdmona
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 08:20:49 -0400
"Always Horny" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
Des,
I really wish YOU would warn people when there is reason to, the author doesn't. If you really don't want to specify what, at least "Caution" doesn't cost much. (On this one I warned myself, I now Frank. But obviously Jim didn't)
As I've stated before, coding stories is not my responsibility, so I won't apologize for that, but I will apologize for not making an effort to ask Frank to code it for us. It was unfair of me to assume all contributors would be aware of the type of story Frank McCoy writes. This was a blunder on my part and my guess, an oversight on Frank's part. Normally he uses codes.
I agree I could have forewarned in some manner, and I will try to do this. But here's the rub, does this mean I'll have to forewarn on every story because how will I know what will squick and what will not? You may think this is an easy answer, but it isn't. I have more email complaining about a cheating story between husband and wife than I do anything about incest.
The best I can do is ask the author. And in this case, I didn't and should have.
And AH, I think you should consider that my place in the FishTank is moderator, not judge, jury, or censor. I rely on the good faith of those that contribute stories and those that comment. Thus far, we've managed.
To Jim Butterfield and anyone else that might have stumbled unaware into Frank's story and found it squicky, I apologize and hope you'll be able to continue in the FishTank with my reassurance to handle things in the best way that I can.
Having said that, I will make mistakes. Some of the mistakes will be grievous, some not so bad. I learn something new all the time about moderating a project like the FishTank.
Des
From: Jim Butterfield
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 21:55:47 GMT
On Fri, 21 Jun 2002 08:20:49 -0400, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote:
To Jim Butterfield and anyone else that might have stumbled unaware into Frank's story and found it squicky, I apologize
No need. It's just that if I'm going to walk into a rainstorm, I like to be forewarned, so I can take my raincoat. (Nomination for the limpest metaphor of the month).
I likely would have read it anyway, but would have preferred being forewarned. For this one, which dives right into the action, there's no need to hold the codes.
and hope you'll be able to
continue in the FishTank with my reassurance to handle things in the best way that I can.
Des, Des! My trust in you is absolute. I would trust you with my wallet. (I'm broke, of course).
But you'll have a heluva time when I submit my own work next week. How do you code, "nose hair of a wombat", anyway? :-)
Having said that, I will make mistakes.
In the Yukon, we had an expression. "You cannot an omelet make without the eggs breaking". Or maybe it was, "It's damned cold outside." I forget which.
- Jim
- - -= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News = - - - http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! - - -== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! = - - -
From: dennyw
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 00:48:20 -0700
On Fri, 21 Jun 2002 21:55:47 GMT, [email protected] (Jim Butterfield) held forth, saying:
How do you code, "nose hair of a wombat", anyway? :-)
I think we need to ask ? the Platypus about that one. Family of his, you know.
-denny- (curmudgeon)
"There are two tragedies in life.
One is to lose your heart's desire. The other is to gain it."
- G.B. Shaw
From: David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 01:25:27 GMT
On Sat, 22 Jun 2002 00:48:20 -0700,
[email protected]
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jun 2002 21:55:47 GMT, [email protected] (Jim Butterfield) held forth, saying:
How do you code, "nose hair of a wombat", anyway? :-)
I think we need to ask ? the Platypus about that one. Family of his, you know.
(Wombat,nasal,hair)
And toxerdermically the distence bettween placentiles and monotreams is greater then that between placenties and marsupials.
In other words your more closely related to wombats then I am.
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See http://dformosa.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more. Free the Memes.
From: Tesseract
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: 23 Jun 2002 05:36:10 -0700
"David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...
On Sat, 22 Jun 2002 00:48:20 -0700,
[email protected]
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jun 2002 21:55:47 GMT, [email protected] (Jim Butterfield) held forth, saying:
How do you code, "nose hair of a wombat", anyway? :-)
I think we need to ask ? the Platypus about that one. Family of his, you know.
(Wombat,nasal,hair)
And toxerdermically the distence bettween placentiles and monotreams is greater then that between placenties and marsupials.
In other words your more closely related to wombats then I am.
Isn't the correct comparison the distance between monotremes and marsupials versus marsupials and placentals? Which, as a first order approximation, places wombats equidistant between monotremes and placentals.
Tesseract
From: Rick Pikul
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 00:16:03 -0400
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says ...
On Fri, 21 Jun 2002 21:55:47 GMT, [email protected] (Jim Butterfield) held forth, saying:
How do you code, "nose hair of a wombat", anyway? :-)
I think we need to ask ? the Platypus about that one. Family of his, you know.
Not quite, he's a monotreme not a marsupial.
Phoenix
From: Ray
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 11:02:26 -0400
"Jim Butterfield" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
On Fri, 21 Jun 2002 08:20:49 -0400, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote:
To Jim Butterfield and anyone else that might have stumbled unaware into Frank's story and found it squicky, I apologize
<SNIP>
Des, Des! My trust in you is absolute. I would trust you with my wallet. (I'm broke, of course).
Don't leave the credit cards - Des doesn't need money with thoise <g>
<SNIP>
.
In the Yukon, we had an expression. "You cannot an omelet make without the eggs breaking". Or maybe it was, "It's damned cold outside." I forget which.
I thought that expression was "I tried to make an omelet, but the damned eggs were frozen!!" <g>
Ray
From: Always Horny
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 13:12:39 +0200
Desdmona wrote:
"Always Horny" wrote
I really wish YOU would warn people when there is reason to, the author doesn't. If you really don't want to specify what, at least "Caution" doesn't cost much. (On this one I warned myself, I now Frank. But obviously Jim didn't)
As I've stated before, coding stories is not my responsibility, so I won't apologize for that, but I will apologize for not making an effort to ask Frank to code it for us. It was unfair of me to assume all contributors would be aware of the type of story Frank McCoy writes. This was a blunder on my part and my guess, an oversight on Frank's part. Normally he uses codes.
I misspoke when I said "coding". I really meant "warning". You know, Uther's FAQ mentions something like "it is brutally rude to omit the following warning codes if they apply". Well, this is just how I felt there with M/g+Incest.
I agree I could have forewarned in some manner, and I will try to do this. But here's the rub, does this mean I'll have to forewarn on every story because how will I know what will squick and what will not? You may think this is an easy answer, but it isn't. I have more email complaining about a cheating story between husband and wife than I do anything about incest.
You have a point here.
I still think it is not so difficult to do the blatant cases, at least with a
generic "caution". Ofc if you don't want to do it, that's your decision.
The best I can do is ask the author. And in this case, I didn't and should have.
Here I am not sure. This was a post under your nym, and I for one for not post anything like this under my nym without a warning. Just too rude. (even if I may be very blunt and considered rude in some other ways).
And AH, I think you should consider that my place in the FishTank is moderator, not judge, jury, or censor. I rely on the good faith of those that contribute stories and those that comment. Thus far, we've managed.
You've done great, no-one questions that. And no-one asks you to censor.
To Jim Butterfield and anyone else that might have stumbled unaware into Frank's story and found it squicky, I apologize and hope you'll be able to continue in the FishTank
Absolutely, if time permits.
But I hate to see you defensive here, that is not at all what I meant to do. As
you know I am very appreciative of the FT and of your role. Here I prolly
misworded my reaction.
I guess it goes like this: several of the PEDO & INCEST crowd like to ambush
people, and to sneak up onto unsuspecting readers with their stuff. Innocent-
looking stories that suddenly hits you in the face. While I already do not like
too much their basic mindset and personalities, I really hate it when they try
to sneak up onto people. And in that particular case, I reacted as if you had
let yourself be used as an accomplice to their schemings. Of course it is very
much over-reacting, but.
Having said that, I will make mistakes. Some of the mistakes will be grievous, some not so bad. I learn something new all the time about moderating a project like the FishTank.
Yep, I can imagine. Including learning some truths about people's gratitude, I guess.
AH
A_H_01 at hotmail. com
From: Desdmona
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 10:11:14 -0400
"Always Horny" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
<snip>
Here I am not sure. This was a post under your nym, and I for one for not post anything like this under my nym without a warning. Just too rude. (even if I may be very blunt and considered rude in some other ways).
<snip>
But I hate to see you defensive here, that is not at all what I meant to do. As you know I am very appreciative of the FT and of your role. Here I prolly misworded my reaction. I guess it goes like this: several of the PEDO & INCEST crowd like to ambush people, and to sneak up onto unsuspecting readers with their stuff. Innocent- looking stories that suddenly hits you in the face. While I already do not like too much their basic mindset and personalities, I really hate it when they try to sneak up onto people. And in that particular case, I reacted as if you had let yourself be used as an accomplice to their schemings. Of course it is very much over-reacting, but.
AH~
I've misled you if you think I was on the defensive. I took no offense to your meaning of what you said, in fact, I agreed with your point. Stories such as these need to have some kind of warning.
However, I have to disagree with you on the point about having things listed under my nym without warning. I'm sorry you find it rude. I find bluntness can be rude at times as well, but I try to look beyond the delivery to the point that is being made. Some points are better made with blunt delivery, some can be softened a little, and still get the point across very well.
As for the rudeness of not warning, it was a mistake. Simple as that. I don't think for one second that Frank was trying to sneak one in on us, even though I do believe there are those type of people out there. Frank just isn't one of them. And I've already admitted to my part in dropping the ball. Having said that, there are personal discomforts involved in posting some stories, but posting under the heading of FishTank, in my mind, alleviates any personal part I have in it. Are you suggesting I need to state that in every post?
And I certainly am aware of your appreciation of the FishTank. I believe your motives for saying what you did were for the good of the FishTank. It was by your request that word length, completeness of story, and now warning of material have added to the easy reading of FishTank submissions. Reminding me of such things can serve as a good way to keep me from getting lazy about the posts. For that, I thank you. I need a good kick in the butt occasionally.
But AH, sometimes I wish you'd find a way to say the things you need to say with just a little more aplomb. Some of your very insightful points are easily missed when you shroud them with insensitivity.
Now, I promise to do better, how about you?
Des
From: Frank McCoy
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: 21 Jun 2002 17:23:18 GMT
[email protected] (Always Horny) wrote:
Des,
I really wish YOU would warn people when there is reason to, the author doesn't. If you really don't want to specify what, at least "Caution" doesn't cost much. (On this one I warned myself, I now Frank. But obviously Jim didn't)
1) 2 positive comments
The flow of the narration is matter-of-fact, no-other-questions-asked. In this context, it is almost, er, refreshing. [In spite of the topic (M/g, parent/kid) which is rather squicky to me, and frankly, in the FT context, rather gross IMO when uncoded. But hey, Frank and his buddies ... I guess we can consider ourselves happy he didn't choose Pedo]
The discrepancy between what is going on and how it is narrated is jarring, and almost reaches to the humorous, at times.
Well ... What was intended was both humorous and the ending intended to be a jar.
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
IMO the story would definitely benefit from more substance to the characters and to their emotions. Otherwise it's rather mechanical pumping.
A stroke story. Yep.
That's what it mainly was.
Substance to the characters was deliberately left out in this one.
Cardboard cutouts, if you would. Nothing more than names out of a
jar.
I wanted people to imagine (being a stroke-story) what would excite THEM in people like Mom, Dad, and Big Brother, not my description of same. Besides, the story was written in a hurry, to get it down before I lost track of the erotic-story-line. (Excuses, excuses!)
An other route could be to increase a little the naive/unsuspecting tone of the girl, to go more towards a purely humorous scene.
Well ... I TRIED. Sometimes the humor comes across; and sometimes I fall flat on my face.
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From: Jim Butterfield
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 22:07:02 GMT
On 21 Jun 2002 17:23:18 GMT, Frank McCoy <[email protected]> wrote:
Well ... What was intended was both humorous and the ending intended to be a jar.
... then ...
Substance to the characters was deliberately left out in this one. Cardboard cutouts, if you would. Nothing more than names out of a jar.
Oh no! Two 'jar's, each with a different meaning! Is this a subtle "Star Wars" reference?
Well ... I TRIED. Sometimes the humor comes across; and sometimes I fall flat on my face.
You didn't fall flat on your face, or anything else as far as I can see. But there's merit to Always.Horny's suggestion that the humour can be brought forward a little more strongly.
Not my cup of tea, but you deserve credit for effort and speed. As do your characters ...
- Jim
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From: Frank McCoy
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: 22 Jun 2002 01:08:25 GMT
[email protected] (Jim Butterfield) wrote:
On 21 Jun 2002 17:23:18 GMT, Frank McCoy <[email protected]> wrote:
Well ... What was intended was both humorous and the ending intended to be a jar.
... then ...
Substance to the characters was deliberately left out in this one. Cardboard cutouts, if you would. Nothing more than names out of a jar.
Oh no! Two 'jar's, each with a different meaning! Is this a subtle "Star Wars" reference?
Well ... It might be, if:
A. I had thought of it.
B. I had ever seen SW1.
All I've ever seen is the first-released trio.
Well ... I TRIED. Sometimes the humor comes across; and sometimes I fall flat on my face.
You didn't fall flat on your face, or anything else as far as I can see. But there's merit to Always.Horny's suggestion that the humour can be brought forward a little more strongly.
Not my cup of tea, but you deserve credit for effort and speed. As do your characters ...
- Jim
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From: Always Horny
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 08:35:30 +0200
Jim Butterfield wrote:
No point in talking about character development or social implications in what amounts to a stroke story. But incest squicks me, and I would rather have been warned.
Well, next time you see the author name Frank McCoy, consider yourself warned.
And lucky that this one isn't pedo ...
AH
A_H_01 at hotmail. com
From: Frank McCoy
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: 21 Jun 2002 17:09:00 GMT
[email protected] (Always Horny) wrote:
Jim Butterfield wrote:
No point in talking about character development or social implications in what amounts to a stroke story. But incest squicks me, and I would rather have been warned.
Well, next time you see the author name Frank McCoy, consider yourself warned.
And lucky that this one isn't pedo ...
It was deliberately not.
Besides, THIS one wouldn't work quite so well if it was.
Well, the younger boy WAS 12 ....
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From: Frank McCoy
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: 21 Jun 2002 17:07:50 GMT
[email protected] (Jim Butterfield) wrote:
1) 2 positive comments
Good narrative, no annoying spelling/grammatical errors to interrupt the flow.
Carries the story of the events in this, ahem, active family in a logical and coherent thread.
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
Here's where story codes would be of help. Incest is a squick for many of us, and the story dives straight into it (never surfaces out of it, for that matter).
Well ... Normally I would have coded that with a header: FISHTANK,TXT "The Fish Tank" (Mmf, incest, cons, teen) Only .... This was a hurried submission. I (mistakenly) thought the "Fish Tank" submissions were due by July 12, and I had just one day to get it in (Yep, I'm the goof who gave things away.) and I rushed to send it off.
Besides, BEING a FISH TANK submission, I figured the actual poster would add the appropriate codes.
All excuses, I know. But I usually am very conscientious about putting in the right story-codes. Sorry.
Like, I don't get the feeling it's being told by a thirteen-year-old. It's so not-with-the-lingo. If the story was, you know, from another century, this might not be so noticeable.
A. You're right in one thing:
I'm lousy (and getting worse, it seems, not better) at aping young people's lingo. ;-{ I know what sounds right; but am getting pretty terrible at doing it myself.
B. Did you notice that there was absolutely NO indication of when,
where, or how the story was originally written? No indications of people's last-names, society, where they lived, who they were (other than family-members), or even any technological indicators (like radio, television, or computers) to give a hint even of what century they were in, let alone what decade. The actual aim was to have language and such HINT at the middle 1960s; but to have the actual story taking place somewhere between 1880 and 2050.
3) Try not to repeat!
No point in talking about character development or social implications in what amounts to a stroke story. But incest squicks me, and I would rather have been warned.
I would rather you had been warned. Sorry.
- Jim
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From: Frank McCoy
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: 21 Jun 2002 17:17:45 GMT
[email protected] (mat twassel) wrote:
Suggestions:
1. Some of the dialogue tags are a little iffy.
"Uh ... I don't THINK so," I worried back a reply.
"Mike! Jerry!" Mom's sharp yelp stopped me and my brothers. "Is that your cum running down your sister's leg?" she accused.
(In this second example you don't need the tag at all.)
A good point.
In most of my stories I'd tend to agree with you ... It's just that in
THIS one, the tags seemed to fit (in my mind). I'm not quite sure
why. But usually the extra the extra tags would not be good.
Perhaps because it's a first-person story, and that's the way said person talks? (Well ... It's an excuse, anyway.)
I thought it was interesting that many of the mom's utterences are qualified with "almost." She almost screamed. An almost disgusted tone to her voice. She said almost conversationally. The plight of hte almost mom. It's funny. I'm not sure it's a weakness - maybe it's a strength.
Hmmm ... I probably would have changed that, IF I had noticed it. Now ... It kind of (sort of, almost, somewhat) fits the story-line ... and the almost-mom, as you point out.
I think I'll leave it; though (as I said) I probably would have changed it if I had caught it in the original draft.
But it IS a good point. I'll have to watch out for that sort of think in the future.
2. The sequence seems somehow off in the section below. It starts out with Dad just jerking the last of his stuff and then a short time later he's doing it again or still or what?
In the morning, I woke up when Mom went to take her shower and Dad rolled me over to get on top. Dad was just jerking the last of his stuff inside me, when Mom returned; drying her hair with a towel. Though Mom couldn't exactly SEE what was going on under the covers, it must have been obvious, as I had my legs wrapped around her husband; pulling his body into mine as Dad rutted and jerked inside me. "When you two are finished," she said with an annoyed look and an almost disgusted sound to her voice, "I'll have breakfast ready. SOME of us have better things to do than just fuck all day long." Only ... For all that, Mom didn't leave. She just stood there and watched while Dad's movements and mine got more and more frantic; and eventually he started the same familiar jerks and thrusts that Mike and Jerry usually give when
Damn. I was HOPING that nobody would notice that. I did ... and never bothered to fix it. In the final version, I guess I'll have to.
Thanks for pointing out that readers DO notice such jarring inconsistencies.
Things that worked:
1. The fish tank analogy is a neat idea, but sometimes it seems a little forced and not fully realized. So I guess this is both a stength and a weakness. In other words I think the fishtank plot and theme is fine but some detail and refinement work is needed.
Perhaps it shows that "The Fish Tank" idea was grafted-on in a hurry? I suppose I could, like you say, smooth out the details.
2. The characters come across well. I was really pleased that the mom didn't fall into the didactic routines of so many McCoy moms. The result is that this story is much lighter. But it's lighter in general: Except for the things I've mentioned, the sentences flow well as does the story.
Thank you.
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From: Frank McCoy
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: 21 Jun 2002 18:12:08 GMT
Thanks for all the comments.
For a day or so, I thought nobody was going to say a thing.
I tried to answer each comment separately. The story does:
A. Seem to properly get across the point I was trying to make. B. Still needs some fixing.
Again, thanks to all for the comments.
ALL will be considered in the re-write.
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From: PleaseCain
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: 22 Jun 2002 05:03:21 GMT
Your family is wacky, like the Cleavers at 45 degrees. Poor, put-upon mom, what is she going to do with them all!
The beginning launches right in, and sets the fish tank concept. I had an idea, in order to start right off with action: flip the first paragraph around, opening with "I guess it was my choking on ..." and tacking your first five sentences on the end of the paragraph.
The first fish tank analogy was fine, but the second, third and fourth seemed strained. Such are the hazards of writing stories on demand. "I gaped like a fish in a tank" - is "gaped" the best word choice here?
Also, I don't know about "I worried back a reply" - as unimaginative as it sounds, I think that deviating much from "I/he/she said" risks shaking the reader for a moment out of the story. "I replied" might be fine, but "I worried back a reply" strikes me as fancy and awkward.
Looks like you could easily do a series on this bunch, a regular sitcom. Thanks for sharing your story.
Cain
From: Frank McCoy
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: 22 Jun 2002 16:36:07 GMT
[email protected] (PleaseCain) wrote:
Your family is wacky, like the Cleavers at 45 degrees. Poor, put-upon mom, what is she going to do with them all!
Yeah ... Well if she'd do her duty and tell the kids what was going on, she might not have such problems. OTOH, I think Mom gets her own kicks out of things just as they are. This way she gets the fun ... But can still claim, "It ain't MY fault!" Yeah, right. ;-}
The beginning launches right in, and sets the fish tank concept. I had an idea, in order to start right off with action: flip the first paragraph around, opening with "I guess it was my choking on ..." and tacking your first five sentences on the end of the paragraph.
I'll look at that, and see which reads better.
The first fish tank analogy was fine, but the second, third and fourth seemed strained. Such are the hazards of writing stories on demand. "I gaped like a fish in a tank" - is "gaped" the best word choice here?
Got a better word for the open-mouthed look of a fish?
Also, I don't know about "I worried back a reply" - as unimaginative as it sounds, I think that deviating much from "I/he/she said" risks shaking the reader for a moment out of the story. "I replied" might be fine, but "I worried back a reply" strikes me as fancy and awkward.
Well ... I was trying to compress worry and reply.
Looks like you could easily do a series on this bunch, a regular sitcom. Thanks for sharing your story.
Probably could; though not likely. ;-}
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From: PleaseCain
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: 22 Jun 2002 19:04:43 GMT
"I gaped like a fish in a tank" - is "gaped" the best word choice here? <<
Got a better word for the open-mouthed look of a fish?<
Right you are. Who knows what I was thinking, sorry.
Cain
From: Mat Twassel
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: 22 Jun 2002 21:44:13 GMT
Cain writes:
"I gaped like a fish in a tank" - is "gaped" the best word choice here? <<
Got a better word for the open-mouthed look of a fish?<
Right you are. Who knows what I was thinking, sorry.
The line gave me pause, too - a little forced/obvious/cute. Maybe it's "in the tank" the goes over the top. I'd think about getting the tank reference in indirectly, then maybe she could simply gape like a fish.
- Mat Twassel
Mat's Erotic Calendar at http://calendar.atEros.com
From: David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 08:33:37 GMT
On 23 Jun 2002 05:36:10 -0700, Tesseract <[email protected]> wrote:
"David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)" <[email protected]>
wrote in message
news:<[email protected]> ...
[ ...]
And toxerdermically the distence bettween placentiles and monotreams is greater then that between placenties and marsupials.
In other words your more closely related to wombats then I am.
Isn't the correct comparison the distance between monotremes and marsupials versus marsupials and placentals?
Yes.
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See http://dformosa.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more. Free the Memes.
From: Desdmona
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 08:23:55 -0400
"Always Horny" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
I can promise that my heart is pure in this regard, especially when I talk to you. (How's that :)
How it comes across, it's often been a surprise to me. So, no promises here, until I get a coach. And maybe even some time after that.
Take care
AH
I think I couldn't ask for a better response. Thanks for this!
Des
From: Souvie
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:37:26 -0400
On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:35:47 -0400, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote:
Thanks to Ray and his compadres, I am delighted to announce that in the next few weeks we will be posting 2 submissions to the FishTank/week. My goal is to spotlight a story written specifically for the anniversary, along with a regular submission that has nothing to do with the anniversary. This week's posts include an anniversary story submitted by Frank McCoy, and 3 flash stories submitted by Selena Jardine.(More about that later.)
Frank's Story is a complete story and it's 1,618 words in length. FishTank guidelines apply.
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
Late again, mea culpea.
Positive: The references to fish and fish tanks throughout the story. Ties in very well with the title.
Positive: Nice flow to the story.
Negative: For me, the ending didn't really feel like the end. <shrug> Just me, I suppose.
- Souvie
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From: Jim Butterfield
Re: FishTank, by Frank McCoy
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 11:23:11 GMT
Good narrative, no annoying spelling/grammatical errors to interrupt the flow.
Carries the story of the events in this, ahem, active family in a logical and coherent thread.
Here's where story codes would be of help. Incest is a squick for many of us, and the story dives straight into it (never surfaces out of it, for that matter).
Like, I don't get the feeling it's being told by a thirteen-year-old. It's so not-with-the-lingo. If the story was, you know, from another century, this might not be so noticeable.
No point in talking about character development or social implications in what amounts to a stroke story. But incest squicks me, and I would rather have been warned.
- Jim
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