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From: Mat Twassel
Re: Denver Gwen (part 1), by Poison Ivan
Date: 03 Feb 2003 23:20:18 GMT
Where does the story bog down?
That's an easy one. When Sam starts explaining the "history" right near the end. I'm not saying it doesn't add to the story, but it's so different from what came before in every way. I think this needs fixing somehow. My first thought: put some of it into a lazy about to drift off conversation with Christy. Maybe she asks enough to set him off, and he starts talking and doesn't realize for a while she's fallen asleep.
There's another moment that sort of bogs down: That's when Sam goes out to get the bucket of blizzard.
Reluctantly, I left the women on the couch and went looking for a
bucket. I found one in the kitchen closet and went to the back door. Outside, the snow was falling hard, and the icy crystals were being pushed nearly horizontal by the wind. It looked like an Arctic scene out there.
I opened the back door and quickly rushed out to the snow. It was
indeed shockingly cold, and I forced the bucket quickly into the snow bank, filling it to the top. My feet were buried in snow, it was frightfully cold, and then the cold gave way to a sharp, burning pain. I danced back indoors and slammed the door behind me.<<
Medium short paragraphs, but they're too soft and slow and yet don't make an impact. Get rid of weak linking verbs and get rid of "looked like" - that makes us think he's not there. He's got to get hammered by the blizzard from the get-go. Get rid of "indeed." Get rid of complex and compound sentences. If you're only going to give us the blizzard in this one little spot, it's got to snap.
2. What do you think of Neil?
He's a big bear. Cute and cuddly. But he likes to have his own way, finally, and I'm not sure I'd want to be around when he doesn't get it. Of course I could be wrong about that. Do I want to find out? Not sure. In RL, definitely not. Beyond that, I think he could be a hero. Deep down he's got real values. Is that wishful thinking? Well, it came from somewhere. I didn't make it up.
3. What do you think of Sam?
On the surface Sam is sane, at least compared to his side-kick. He's like the Garfunkel of Simon and Garfunkel. I worry what pain Curt will cause him, but I trust Sam to handle it well. Sam and Neil make a nice pair.
4. Do you want to read more?
Yes please.
- Mat Twassel
Mat's Erotic Calendar at http://calendar.atEros.com
From: Conjugate
Re: Denver Gwen (part 1), by Poison Ivan
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 20:52:04 -0700
"Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
The following submission to the FishTank is not the complete story. This is only part one of a two-part story. This submission is also a prequel to a previous story by this same author. The first story is "Claudia Near the End of the Road." It is not necessary to read the first story, but you may want to, and it can be found at: http://www.asstr.org/~poisoniv1/claudia.html
Because of this submission being in two parts, the author has some specific requests. In his own words:
OK, I know I've been gone a while, but I need some help. I have a long (about 17,000 words) story that I'd like some feedback on. Since the story is so long, Des and I agreed it might be easier for the denizens of the tank if I split into two shorter parts. So here is part 1, and part 2 will appear next week.
Since you can't comment on the whole story until next week, I thought I'd make a couple specific requests on this first part and wait until next week for the official 2+2 responses. Or, if you'd rather give official 2+2 responses on both halves, that's fine too. Or if you'd rather free associate on the state of the world, do whatever floats your boat.
1. Where does the story bog down?
Didn't, to my taste. Thought it was pretty good.
2. What do you think of Neil?
Can't say I like him much, somehow; reminds me of some people I know who were congenial bullies in a way. But that's not a criticism of the story, just a criticism of (my perception of) Neil.
3. What do you think of Sam?
He's a good, open, friendly guy. I had trouble identifying with him as I would have been quite uncomfortable in the situation, but that's my problem, not that of the story or of Sam.
4. Do you want to read more?
Yes, I think so. I'll see the next half, certainly.
Conjugate
From: john
Re: Denver Gwen (part 1), by Poison Ivan
Date: 3 Feb 2003 20:16:56 -0800
There's no fool like an old one. So why not examine the structure before all the studs are nailed in place.
Introduction. I thought, a fantastic opening sentence and image. (Not the first note, of course.) The real intro, however, sings! I don't even mind you concluding the paragraph with an unrelated sentence. The image is so intense that the reader's brain relates it for you. It could be easily combined with the second sentence as a dependant clause if you wanted grammatic soundness. But it's faster and more striking the way you did it.
Conflict. Don't get me wrong. This 'story' did not flag. The writing was readable, varied and clear for the most part (I questioned a few word choices: stiff as chicken bones?? and snored daintily??). There was enough reticence in all your characters to tease as well as titillate. And there was a reasonable progression in the crescendo of 'sexual' tension. Need there be more? Perhaps yes, for a 'story.' Perhaps no, for erotica. Usually in a story, some conflict is introduced fairly early. If that's coming, I think it's may be late. If it's already there, I didn't pick up on it. (But then I don't pick up on a lot of things these days.)
I anxiously await the rest.
Thank you, Ivan.
John
From: Ray
Re: Denver Gwen (part 1), by Poison Ivan
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 04:12:50 -0500
"Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
The following submission to the FishTank is not the complete story. This is only part one of a two-part story. This submission is also a prequel to a previous story by this same author. The first story is "Claudia Near the End of the Road." It is not necessary to read the first story, but you may want to, and it can be found at: http://www.asstr.org/~poisoniv1/claudia.html
Because of this submission being in two parts, the author has some specific requests. In his own words:
OK, I know I've been gone a while, but I need some help. I have a long (about 17,000 words) story that I'd like some feedback on. Since the story is so long, Des and I agreed it might be easier for the denizens of the tank if I split into two shorter parts. So here is part 1, and part 2 will appear next week.
Since you can't comment on the whole story until next week, I thought I'd make a couple specific requests on this first part and wait until next week for the official 2+2 responses. Or, if you'd rather give official 2+2 responses on both halves, that's fine too. Or if you'd rather free associate on the state of the world, do whatever floats your boat.
1. Where does the story bog down?
2. What do you think of Neil?
3. What do you think of Sam?
4. Do you want to read more?
FishTank guidelines may be avoided, but if you'd like to stick to them they are:
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
3) Try not to repeat!
The complete list of guidelines for the FishTank are not accessible at this time because of ASSTR being down. But if you have any questions you may direct them to: [email protected] or [email protected].
When ASSTR is up and running, the FishTank can be found at: http://www.asstr.org/~Desdmona/FishTank
*********************************************** Denver Gwen (MF MMF oral anal) By Poison Ivan
[email protected]
After "Claudia Near the End of the Road," I received many notes from readers asking for more of my road stories about the travels of me and Neil Drabeck. In "Near the End of the Road," there was a quick reference to this particular escapade in Denver. This story does not mark the dramatic change of life that Claudia's story does, but I think it exemplifies our travels across America: seeing new places, meeting new people, and living new experiences.
I hope you enjoy this story of the blizzard party that Neil and I spent in the company of Christy and Denver Gwen.
- Sam Rourke
I haven't commented here in a bit, and considering the circumstances and the specific questions that answers are requested for, I am not going to read the other authors responses first ... nor am I going to be concerned - this week about repeats, as hearing the same thing from more than one person may just help in deciding what you do or do not wish to look more closely at in the story. I'm not reading the others responses first, because I don't want to risk having my thoughts biased in any way before I comment.
Do I want to read more? Yes, most definately - but then again, I'm slightly biased here because I 'do' enjoy Poison Ivan stories to begin with. But the story reads well and I want to see who things carry forward. (I wonder if Christy is going to wake up before they finish and what her reaction will be to a man sandwich ... and will the guys have enough energy left if she's interested in her own?
I'll try to get back to the 'bog-down' question later ... since I want to talk about Neil and Sam and Christy first. First, having been where I've been and having known as many people as I have over the years, I've known many Neils and they are all basically of a type. You've painted him pretty well too, though there were one or two things I felt were somewhat out of character.
Neil: "Big" loud, brash, fun-loving, always in search of a party or a new experience - any experience. Always forthright - always pushy - yet in everything they do and everything the instigate, they always put the question to someone else for every ideas, thought or action they want followed, immediately answering that question for them and then touting it as that other person's idea to begin with. I always found their out- going brashness and endlessly jovial and often boorish good humor to be somewhat a reaction to their size, which can easily intimidate others (a little guy acting the same way would be immediately classed as as ass and find himself ignored). Always finding the women is another trait of theirs ... often bluffing and bulling their way through, confusing the issue enough that by the time things actually occur the woman isn't 100% sure if she didn't somehow instigate it.
Sam: Sam is somewhat less well defined in the story. There's the germ of a backbone and of his being his own man in the story, yet it also tends to portray him somewhat as a follower in that he seems to be playing second fiddle to Neil's brashness and the wishes of the others during the main events of the story. The basic impression I got of him - from 'this' story, is that he's most likely a very well developed character until he gets in the company of his friend Neil who simply tends to over-power everyone about him. But there isn't really anything in the story itself that completely tends to establish that fact - at least, not so far.
I did not, a couple of times, that Neil did seem to actually defer to Sam, and near the end of this part, when he brought out Gwen's 'request', Neil seemed nervous as a kitten about Sam's potential response -
Neil stood up and began to pace. He strode aggressively across the kitchen, stopped, and walked back. "It seems our little dick contest put an idea in Gwen's mind. She thinks it would be fun if she was the center of a man sandwich, if you know what I mean."
This one paragraph, more than any other, seems to indicate that Sam is actually the one really controlling the 'friendship' and Neil's momentary insecurity about both Sam's reaction and the possibility of maybe ruining the good thing they had in Gwen's home should Sam 'not' agree.
At first, I was wondering 'why' you kept everyone 'standing' around the kitchen table as they began drinking and Neil began 'laying down the rules' of the Blizzard-Party. To me, at first, it would have made more sense for them to retire to the sofa - the coffee table was right there for the drinks - where they could have 'seen' the blizzard through the large picture window as the party progressed. But the Christy character and her actions (stripping after a couple of drinks) makes standing around the table the more sensible location. As 'painted', I doubt the Christy character would have risen to strip if she had been seated on the sofa. She would have more likely remained seated and drinking while the action took place around her ... she 'did' come in angry at Curt and her anger, her position (if seated on the sofa) and the alcohol would likely have made her feel seperate from the action about her. (or thems my thoughts)
I do have a couple of small comments to make about a specific thing or two in the story ... minor things, but they caught my eye.
When I came through the door, Gwen and Neil were naked together on the couch, Gwen spooning Neil from behind. Her hand moved lazily around Neil's torso, tracing spirals in his chest hair. Neil's thick, limp penis hung heavily across his thigh. Gwen's nails were long and painted blood red.
There's something about the order of things in this first paragraph, or more spefically in the last sentence ... it's wording and how it relates to the rest. You've already mentioned her hand moving lazily, playing in the hairs, then moved away from them to his sagging penis, and then you comment on her "nails, long and painted blood red." Not trying to write for you, but it would have read better to me if "Gwen's long nails, painted blood red, left little yellow white trails as the dragged across his skin. of if the order in the sentence were redone ... it feels choppy somehow.
at the 'Cute Dick' competition:
"Do what want. It's not like we can hide what we've got," I said. "We're just sort of, you know, out there."
I think you forgot "you" . <g> . . "Do what 'you' want.
The girls laughed, and Neil smiled. "I think we need to make the ladies happy, old buddy," he said. "We are, after all, guests in their home. We are obliged to live by the house rules."
Gwen and Christy urged me on, "Come on, get up there you two, let's go ..." A little grudgingly, I stood and moved towards Neil. I felt a little like a clown. I'm sure I was grinning like an idiot. The girls moved their chairs around to face us. They stared at our members.
"I need to seem `em hard," Gwen said. "You can't judge a man by his limp dick."
"seem" 'em hard?
"If we can't go out into the storm, maybe we should bring the storm in here with us."
"What do you have in mind?" Neil said.
"Sam, I need you to get some snow."
Reluctantly, I left the women on the couch and went looking for a bucket. I found one in the kitchen closet and went to the back door. Outside, the snow was falling hard, and the icy crystals were being pushed nearly horizontal by the wind. It looked like an Arctic scene out there.
I opened the back door and quickly rushed out to the snow. It was indeed shockingly cold, and I forced the bucket quickly into the snow bank, filling it to the top. My feet were buried in snow, it was frightfully cold, and then the cold gave way to a sharp, burning pain. I danced back indoors and slammed the door behind me.
Maybe I'm wrong here, but shockingly? then frightfully? it sounds like the lesser following the greater. Then immediately after the cold gives way to sharp, burning pain? Maybe I've been exposed to the cold too many times in the past, yes - barefooted, but what has always happened with me was an infusion of sharp 'prickly' lances of pain that seemed to attack the soles of my feet, everywhere, all at once. The 'buring pain' always set in as the feet began to thaw.
(to be continued next week)
I will be waiting <g>
As usual, Ivan hasn't let me down.
Ray
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Denver Gwen (part 1), by Poison Ivan
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 12:32:58 -0600
On Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:40:52 -0500, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote:
1. Where does the story bog down?
I don't think that it does so precisely, see comments below. The time transitions cause an interrupt in the flow, but it is more a bump in the road than a bog.
2. What do you think of Neil?
He sounds like fun. Running naked into the snow is entertaining, and while I don't know if I'd try everything like he does, it is nice to think about doing that.
3. What do you think of Sam?
As the narrator, I don't think he lets himself go enough. I'm sure he was thinking more intense things than he let on.
Comparing the two is interesting, because Sam just seems to go along with ideas, and isn't so outgoing in his play. Gwen and Neil just play well together, and I don't know if Christy and Sam are into it the same way. I imagine one or both coming along and asking "Do you like me?" or something similar, especially after the thrill of the nice sex passes, and they are just cuddly together. I don't think that Neil and Gwen need to wonder about that part - it is clear that they are into each other in more than just sex.
4. Do you want to read more?
Yes.
Fish Tanky thinking ...
I like the story premise, young friends enjoying life and trying out new thing just to experience them. I never did much road tripping, but the living arrangements we made in college had elements in common with this story.
The flashback background things slow things down. That answers part of the "where does it bog down at" question. It isn't that they are bad, nor do I think that it is bad to have them in there. But the transitions between the scenes need something to make them flow more. If nothing else, another narrative paragraph, perhaps one from the POV of Sam after the party.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Tesseract
Re: Denver Gwen (part 1), by Poison Ivan
Date: 7 Feb 2003 01:46:31 -0800
"Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...
*********************************************** Denver Gwen (MF MMF oral anal) By Poison Ivan
[email protected]
1. Where does the story bog down?
Bog down is a bit strong, but it slows down, and the tone changes near the end when we get the back story. This is important for us to properly understand Neil's request at the end but it would fit better if it were more integrated into the current story, not stuck on as a foot note. Somebody suggested having him tell the story to Christy. That would help and you could make it an indirect quote. Also try running it through the readers' digest machine. I don't know if it can be shrunk, but if it can that would help.
2. What do you think of Neil?
He is a big, lovable, huggable bear. Very extrovert. If you are a good friend, he is great to be around and not very dangerous. He would be great at watching your back.
If you're not a good friend, he could be (quite) a bit intimidating and maybe even dangerous. Maybe women feel this about most guys, but most guys don't feel very intimidated by most other guys so when we come across one it's somewhat unusual and a little disquieting.
3. What do you think of Sam?
Sam is a good friend, though it takes a while for us to learn this. He is the quiet, introverted, responsible one. His job is to prevent Neil from doing the most dangerous things; he long ago gave up trying to stop the merely outrageous. He is probably smarter than Neil, more detail oriented, more aware of possible consequences. Like some introverts I know (such as me) he likes being around friendly extroverts; it helps release the hidden extrovert nature he has that needs lots of encouragement to come out.
Whatever success he has, in business or whatever, he is envious of Neil's easy way of succeeding with women but hopes that he gets some of the benefits of Neil's ability.
4. Do you want to read more?
Yes!
I don't consider this part of the story. Not having read the other stories, it means nothing to me. People that have read the other stories probably don't need it. You could keep it as an interesting piece of trivia on the web site but not in the body of story text.
After "Claudia Near the End of the Road," I received many notes from readers asking for more of my road stories about the travels of me and Neil Drabeck. In "Near the End of the Road," there was a quick reference to this particular escapade in Denver. This story does not mark the dramatic change of life that Claudia's story does, but I think it exemplifies our travels across America: seeing new places, meeting new people, and living new experiences.
I hope you enjoy this story of the blizzard party that Neil and I spent in the company of Christy and Denver Gwen.
- Sam Rourke
A good story needs a good opening - something that catches the reader's attention and won't let go. For a sex story, naked people are just about ideal. In most cases fucking would be too much. What ever you do next would be anticlimactic.
When I came through the door, Gwen and Neil were naked together on the couch, Gwen spooning Neil from behind. Her hand moved lazily around Neil's torso, tracing spirals in his chest hair. Neil's thick, limp penis hung heavily across his thigh.
All of the above sentences describe action. The next one:
Gwen's
nails were long and painted blood red.
does not. It really stands out. The nails have to do something for it to fit. You could put the nails on the hand in the preceding sentence and combine the thoughts. Or you could move it to later in the story when you are describing Gwen:
Gwen giggled. She stood up and wobbled on her feet before righting herself. She was drunker than I thought. Gwen didn't have much hair between her legs, just a sparse patch of red curls. Her areolas were light pink and nearly perfectly round, and tan freckles dotted her chest and shoulders.
She was also a pretty girl, a little skinny, with bony hips and hard-looking shoulders. She walked over to Neil. At first, they stood side by side and looked out the window. The sky was turning an ominous gray. She put her arm around his waist. Neil put his around her shoulders.
This is a catch 22.
I think this story is a bit long for the Fish Tank. I am trying to read all the FT stories. I don't have any squicks, to the point of losing my lunch, with any written material (pictures, especially them new fangled moving pictures, might be another story), but some stories have more appeal than others. I like to read them in one go, in a few stolen moments, and then make any comments, if I am going to comment, right after. Denver Gwen upset that routine; not everybody is as fast a reader as Jeff.
The catch is, if it wasn't in the Fish Tank, I might have not found it. Now I'll have to read part two. If the universe ends before I can do so I'll never forgive you.
Tesseract
From: PleaseCain
Re: Denver Gwen (part 1), by Poison Ivan
Date: 08 Feb 2003 05:26:22 GMT
Good, clear writing here, that moves the story along at a nice clip. The dialogue too sounds right and rollicking. Great job, per usual.
Regarding tension and plotting, I won't be able to state it better than Katie and John. At 17,000 words, you would have 50 pages of uninterrupted sex, and it may be difficult to maintain the rapture. For my part, the preliminaries and actual sex are fun, but the rules and genital shows less so. But I don't know. Janey wrote epic orgies and I didn't see many complaints, and you're right up there with her. Write what you love, and the truly discriminating readers will follow!
One more quick fix: I winced when Neil pulled off Gwen's tit.
I'm looking forward to the rest next week.
Thanks,
Cain
From: Poison Ivan
Re: Denver Gwen (part 1), by Poison Ivan
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 20:21:09 -0500
I really appreciate people responding to the partial story, and I hope the atypical format of the Fish Tank these two weeks isn't too much of a burden. I'm a little unsure how to respond at this point, given that the last half coming up in a couple days. But I'll give it a try!
First, some general comments that nearly everyone mentioned in one way or another. Yes, there is a real lack of conflict. I think the biggest weakness of the story is that we're half way through, and there is still a lack of a well-formed plot. It relies on the sex (or the promise of sex) to keep people turning the pages. But I promise that a plot will materialize, eventually.
I asked about the story bogging down, and everyone mentioned it starting to slow down towards the end. There were some writing mistakes at that point which hurt, but I think people were ready for the story to get moving, too. I am tempted to cut the snow bit completely, or maybe fold it back into the earlier story some how.
And for everyone's comments on the Sam and Neil characters, I want to say, wow, you all went far beyond my expectations. Reading how the characters come across was fascinating to me, especially when people saw different things. I think it was probably the most useful feedback I've ever received for any story, and all of you - Katie, Mat, Conjugate, john, Ray, Jeff, Tesseract, Cain - everyone gave first class replies. Thank you thank you thank you!
Now for those of you who made other specific comments ...
Katie:
I wrote the first story of this "series" (if it's two stories, does that make it a series?) immediately after I read On The Road for the first time. I even stole Neil's name from Neal Cassady, Kerouac real life traveling companion. While it's not supposed to be a rip-off of Kerouac, I do consider it a sort of "homage" to him. Of course my language doesn't measure up to Kerouac's, but that doesn't mean I can't try!
Dialogue with four people is certainly a challenge. It helps that Sam is a first person narrator (so he refers to himself as 'I' and not 'Sam'), and it helps that Neil's voice is so distinctive. When I re-read it in before I wrote this response, I noticed the characters refer to each other by name a lot. That probably makes it easier to keep track of who is talking, even though people don't really talk that way. But then all written dialogue is a little unrealistic, isn't it?
I agree about the opening, too. My main problem is with the opening sentence, which sounds awkward to my ears. I started to rewrite it prior to posting it to the Fish Tank and my first two attempts were worse than what I have now. It needs more attention.
Mat makes some excellent suggestions, which I've already started work on. Moving some of the "history" into the post-coital conversation is absolutely perfect. He also points out many problems with the blizzard sequence, which I might fix by cutting it completely. I need to think about that more.
John, also good suggestions. I confess that the chicken bone thing was something I dumped in there as a place holder and never got around to replacing. I think the "snored daintily" thing will disappear when I move the history into the dialogue, so I don't even need to deal with that!
Ray, the problem with Neil pacing is an excellent point. I was trying to get across an over-abundance of energy, but I agree, it comes across as nervousness, which is out of character. Centering the action back at the sofa is also an interesting idea, and one that didn't occur to me. It seems like every time I am in a party, I always end up hanging around the kitchen, which is probably why the blizzard party centered around the kitchen table. The advantage of putting everybody on the sofa in front of the window, though, is I can bring the storm into the story more, which would be a very good thing.
And the little suggestions are much appreciated, too! I self-edit, and I didn't let this story sit before I submitted it to the Fish Tank.
I think Jeff's main complaint with the history not flowing well will be solved by the fix Mat suggested.
I'll have to think about Tesseract's suggestion that I move the blood red nail description. While it does seem slightly out of place now, I have a reason for having it where it is, and it doesn't bother me that it jars a little. If it made you sit up and notice, then I'm not unhappy.
Cain, at least I didn't give him a pair of pliers, hmm? Yes, "pulling off her tit" is not the wisest word choice!
Thanks again, everyone, for an especially constructive week in the Fish Tank.
Poison Ivan
^ more appreciative than you could possibly imagine
From: Desdmona
Re: Denver Gwen (part 1), by Poison Ivan
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 22:46:28 -0500
Denver Gwen (MF MMF oral anal)
By Poison Ivan
[email protected]
Ivan~
I'm a little at a disadvantage because I've had the chance to read the entire story, so it's difficult to confine my thoughts to just part one. But I'll try.
First thing, right off the bat, I have trouble with the beginning. I think Katie has alluded to this already, but I want to second it. Because this is a possible series, I like the idea of having a little diary-like entry from Sam. Unfortunately, as it is now, it feels more like a note from Ivan rather than Sam. A simple suggestion might be to switch the two paragraphs so we know right away that it's Sam talking.
The other issue I have is Neil. In "Claudia at the End of the Road" Neil is over the top and I expect him to be in this story too. However, some of it seemed forced. I wish I could give you a specific example but I don't think it's specifics. It's just a general feeling I get. Maybe because Neil doesn't say anything that isn't exaggerated or "over the top." It's hard to see a change in Neil from sober to drunk. Of course he doesn't need the booze and weed to be outrageous, he already is, but it might be something to think about to have him tone done a little when he starts to get drunk, and then get outrageous again when he's plastered.
If I started listing the things I like about the story, I might run out of bandwidth. So I'll just say, you've done a fabulous job of catching a party atmosphere. The characters are all distinct. As an aside to another comment from someone else, because the characters are so distinct, it's easy to know who is saying what. Superb! And I think I'll save the rest of my praise for part two.
Oh, there are a couple of specific things I wanted to point out:
"Gwen sat up and slouched on the couch."
Even though I think I know what you're getting at here, it seems awkward. How does one sit up and slouch at the same time. Maybe she could "right herself but still slouch?"
And in this exchange:
Christy was a substitute teacher, and the weather looked bad enough to close the schools.
"She didn't even go in today ..."
I think maybe Gwen's response should be more like: "She didn't have to go in today ..." This way it wouldn't insinuate that Christy had a choice. Because it's blizzard conditions, she really didn't have a choice, did she?
That's all I have. Thanks bunches for participating in the FT limelight instead of saving all your expertise for the behind-the-scenes-stuff.
Des
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From: Katie McN
Re: Denver Gwen (part 1), by Poison Ivan
Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 20:41:04 GMT
Hi Ivan and "Desdmona" <[email protected]>,
On Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:40:52 -0500 I noticed your interesting post:
[ ... ]
Hi Ivan!
I stopped what I was doing when I noticed a new story by you in the Fishtank and got to reading. I usually wouldn't read a two part story unless I had both parts, but in this case I didn't have a problem making an exception. I'll try to stick with the Fishtank guidelines for my initial comments and then see if I'm able to answer one or two of your questions after that.
Your story has two major strengths. First, if one was to diagram it, it would prove to be very complicated and your ability to write such a story without confusing the reader is amazing. You demonstrate a high degree of technical ability beyond what is normally seen around here. Related to this is how you paint all the pictures in a way that might remind someone of a Jack Kerouac story. You're always close to rambling off in one direction or another and yet manage to keep moving forward without losing the reader's interest. You included plenty of sex in your story and did it in a way that was not gratuitous. I don't read MF for the turn-on value so MF action has to really fit the story as it does in your work or else it gets in my way. Nice job.
The other element of your story that impressed me is how you're able to have four characters in action at all times to include a substantial amount of dialog where they all talk. This is very difficult to do successfully. Writing teachers often tell people to only have to people interacting at one time to avoid having to continuously let the reader know who is talking and thereby remind him or her that this is a story. You were able to keep it up through out the entire story and I didn't realize how well you were doing until I got near the end. where I started to notice the people's names showing up a lot. Unless someone has tried to write a story with four or more people interacting for an extended period of time, he or she can't imagine how difficult this is to do well and you succeed. I plan on keeping your story around to act as a reference in case I ever dare to try something similar. Very impressive technical writing effort.
I have two suggestions.
The first thought has to do with the type of story. Since I'm a self trained writer, I tend to make up my own terms for things. In this case, I'd classify your story as a fictional diary story. It provides us with some information about the life of the characters at a time when they really don't have many problems or issues getting in the way. I don't know if you've read On the Road by Kerouac, but if not, you might pick up a copy to see how a master of fictional diary writing does it. He paints nice pictures of what's going on in the story and like you is able to juggle some complex interactions without letting the reader know he's doing it. The big difference is that he provides his characters with problems at every stage of their journey. Okay, some of the problems are not what would be on my list of worries, but for anyone who gets into the story there is constant tension for the reader who worries about how this or that problem will be overcome. When there isn't a problem in the way, he foreshadows something so the reader has a possible issue in the back of his or her mind to process. In other words he keeps the tension up at all times and this is why people start reading the book, find themselves unable to put it down until they finish it, and then are disappointed that there isn't more to the story.
You story seems lacking in problems for the characters. Instead of using tension to keep the reader interest at high pitch, you are relying on your story telling ability alone and so there really isn't a place in the story where I found myself wanting to rush ahead to see what was going to happen. I was able to savoir every word which is nice, but not as nice as if I had to go back and read it a second time to see what I missed as I raced to find out how this or that problem was overcome.
A second suggestion would have to do with the opening. I could see how you were trying to hook the reader and the general idea is quite good. I found the writing a bit complicated and so noticed you were trying to hook me. I think the technical things should remain in the background so the reader does what is hoped for without understanding that he is going down the author's road. I think you might be able to do more by using your opening as a place to foreshadow something that could happen later in the story. I'm not sure how to do it, but it would seem that simple sentences might help. Introducing the two people on the couch as naked bodies instead of by name the first time they're mentioned would then allow saying something about Gwen tracing spirals through his hair, followed by the narrator noticing Neil's limp dick with appropriate commentary. It would be easier for the reader to comprehend each point in order and so build your hook in a way that didn't seem contrived, but did keep the interest going. You might consider introducing some lightning flashes or have the lights flicker which is a common occurrence in the Rockies. This would suggest a possible future problems. (See above).
I want to read more because I like your writing style and know I'll find interesting thing to enjoy in the next chapter. The story doesn't bog down at any point, but it doesn't peak either. It would seem that there should be more highs and lows which could be done if you introduce some "problems" for you characters to address. The story is interesting, but I can't say the two male characters did much for me. Maybe it's just the way I am, but I found they just moved from scene to scene and really didn't do anything that I could say impressed me enough for me to have to stop reading and reflect on what I learned about them. Maybe it's just because they are male characters that caused me to feel this way.
The first part of your story is an impressive effort and you are able to do things that I can't do and so I want to study and learn some of your technique. I appreciate you taking the time to share with the rest of us and look forward to next week when we can read the conclusion.
Thanks!
It's Me! Katie McN
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Read My Stories at:
www.katie-mcn.com