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From: Souvie
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 01:28:18 GMT
On Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:52:55 -0500, "Conjugate" <[email protected]> wrote:
Desdmona22 <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ... The following is the 18th submission into the Fish Tank. The normal guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 things to improve
3) Try not to repeat!
This story and all other FishTank submissions are being held at:
http://www.asstr.org/~Desdmona/fishtank/base
************************************************************************ *********
Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story By Frank McCoy (Mgg, incest, cons, pedo, preg, teach)
Let's see; the visual description was nice; it gave enough detail without being distracting. And the dialog seemed realistic, or as realistic as it could be considering the subject matter.
To improve: I was a little disappointed in one sentence, "While not dressed as blatantly sexual as many girls her age, Marie wasn't out of style either." I can't make that sound grammatical in my head. And " ...as blatantly sexually ..." doesn't sound right either.
How about "Marie might not have dressed as slutty as most girls her age did, but that didn't mean she was out of style."
Then, too, I would have liked to see a bit more reporting of sensation. That really wouldn't work here, where the POV character isn't the one having the sex, but still we could have seen a bit more of the mother's sensation when she has an orgasm while watching. (Maybe a (voy) code would be appropriate? Not sure ....)
Overall, nice, even if it's not my genre of choice.
Conjugate
From: Gary Jordan
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: 20 Nov 2001 13:52:28 GMT
The following is the 18th submission into the Fish Tank. The normal guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 things to improve
3) Try not to repeat!
This story and all other FishTank submissions are being held at:
http://www.asstr.org/~Desdmona/fishtank/base
1. 2 positive comments
A. The mother's concern for her daughters' sexual well-being is ... touching.
B. The mother's belief that her husband is a caring, sensitive man is touching as well.
2. 2 things to improve.
I am wondering if Frank spent a week on FT#7 preparing us for this one. My immediate impulse is to point out that the story would be improved greatly if the girls were each six years older and the father was a step-father (no blood kin) and safe sex were practiced with birth control pills and condoms. But that would take it out of Frank's genre and into another one entirely. So ...
A. The mother should be more truthful with her children from the start. The discussion of "helping Daddy sleep" should let the girls know that sex can be enervating and/or relaxing, and the latter will help the old man sleep.
B. Mom should also stop beating around the bush and ask her daughters to have babies instead of simply putting them in a situation that will have that result. It's obvious thet the elder daughter recognizes the situation, and is in favor of it. Why pretend? Who is she fooling?
Overall, Ewwwwwwwwww.
Gary Jordan
"Old submariners never die. But sometimes, they're in too deep."
"This communicating of a man's self to his friend works two contrary effects, for it redoubleth joys, and cutteth griefs in half." - Francis Bacon, Essays
From: Mat Twassel
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: 21 Nov 2001 15:24:35 GMT
Strengths:
Good dialogue. It defines the characters and situation and advances the story appropriately.
Sometimes I didn't get the sense this was a real family in a traditional sense and yet the characters is some other sense came through bright and clear: the father, for example, was someone who did nothing but sleep and fuck - a lump and a cock; the older daughter was both wary and trying to fit in, trying to please, as she left childhood; the younger daughter was a cipher; and the mom wanted to do the right thing for her family. So whether this is brilliant work or an accident or a failure depends a bit on your intentions. In the opening, did you mean, for example, to have the mom describe the daughter as if it was someone she'd never seen before?
Weaknesses:
Plot/story line: The opening and closing are okay, but the middle, filled with repetitive elements, seems to wander off. The meandering could come from the absence of tension or that there's no real conflict. The introduction of the younger child might boost the theme but it dilutes the story.
Some of the longer passages suffer from blockiness: stacks of elements which don't quite blend or flow as smoothly as they might.
- Mat Twassel
From: Poison Ivan
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 02:02:08 -0500
For a sex story, there is almost no sex. There is very little action, even. Mostly we hear the mother repeatedly summarizing the "sex education" night from a few weeks back, using minor variations of the same phrases over and over again.
I hate summary in fiction. I like stories to be "in scene." I'd like to see more dialog, more description of action as it's happening. I think you should cut as much of the mother's repetitive reminiscing as you possibly can - I think you should be able to cut at least a third of this story without changing it noticeably.
Also, her reminiscing should be more varied. It isn't enough to just mention the "cum shot" over and over again - after two or three repetitions, it gets boring; after twenty repetitions, it's excrutiating. If the cum shot is what's exciting to you, have the action build up to it, make it the climax of the scene.
There is a a little action here and there, and that's where the story is at its best. The discussion between Marie and Amanda at the beginning is great (but too short!) And the short stretch where the mother is getting dressed in the bedroom is good too. These types of scenes really make the story move along, and they need to be a much larger proportion of the story.
In other words, pare the summary down to a minimum, then build up your good action scenes, making them more substantial.
That's all!
Poison Ivan
From: Desdmona
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: 22 Nov 2001 07:05:13 GMT
Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story By Frank McCoy (Mgg, incest, cons, pedo, preg, teach)
Frank~
There is a wonderful moment in the beginning of this story when Amanda approaches Marie:
The young woman addressed lifted her eyes to meet her mother's. Marie had been fully aware of the older woman's presence; but figured her mother would speak up when she was ready. In the meantime, the painful embarrassment of the young man in the story she was reading, was quite absorbing. "Yes, Mom?" she replied; not committing herself. Whatever her mother wanted, she would learn.
It's a perfect 12 year old's response. And later when Marie is rationalizing about her younger sister, the rationalization is so irrational that I can believe it's coming from a 12 year old.
The description in this paragraph is very visual and made me think of the times when I was younger and would hear someone say something nasty. I would always be titillated by their boldness:
"especially when her first time ended with her own father's swollen penis twitching, jerking, and ejaculating thick sticky gobs of incestuous cum into her cramping young belly; spasming jet after gooey jet of his potent seed into the fertile depths of her eager young womb ..."
I'll address more about this later.
I like the use of colloquialisms like:
"and probably safely past the girl's best time to 'catch'
It gives a 'down-in-the-hills' sound to Amanda, which is sort of a cliche of Hill Folk, but adds credence to her misguided reasoning.
I've decided to point out the inconsistencies that I noted simply because that is what you have asked for Frank.
" ...where unneeded black underwear held apple-sized bosoms
from bouncing"
[what's unneeded the color black or the bra itself? Because the purpose of a bra is to prevent bouncing - so if she bounces then maybe the bra is needed]
" ...which were just a TINY bit loose at the top; hinting that they MIGHT fall down ..."
[The jeans can't hint at falling down if they're so skin tight that you can make out the rib of her panties.]
"Well ... How COULD a girl forget something like that ...
especially when her first time ended with her own father's
swollen penis twitching, jerking, and ejaculating thick sticky
gobs of incestuous cum into her cramping young belly; spasming
jet after gooey jet of his potent seed into the fertile depths of
her eager young womb, as the man actually attempted to father a
child on his own daughter before she reached the fifth grade?"
[whose POV is this?At first I thought it was Marie's but by the end of it, it sounds like the voice of Amanda] [This paragraph does not lead me to believe that Marie enjoyed it all (her cramping belly doesn't sound like much fun) - which makes it even harder to believe that she will want to do it again]
"That it had been about a week before Marie's period ..."
[periods in girl's this age and younger are rarely regular, in fact many will have a first period and not have another for months. They will however continue to cycle hormonally, and can get pregnant at any time during the cycle.]
"Again, she had to stop, catch her breath, and gulp down a lump in her throat before continuing,"
[Amanda reservations seem meant to pacify the reader more than her own beliefs. If she feels what she is doing is absolutely OK, then why does she hesitate? Hesitation denotes some sort of indecision. If she's not decided that what she is doing is right, how will the reader decide it is ok? Maybe it would be more effective if the hesitation were because she's unsure of 'the teenage response which can be extremely fickle]
"Uh, Mom? Are you sure about this? You don't mind? I mean, Dad's
YOUR husband, after all."
[This response sounds more like a preteen being asked to fix dad dinner, rather than have sex. It's too nonchalant. So we have the mother hemhauling around and the 12 yr old agreeing with very little hesitation: Do children this age agree to do anything so willingly?]
"As she started to unzip the tight dress that showed off her still attractive body, she heard her eldest daughter's faint, "Thanks, Mom,"
[So far I've seen nothing that leads me to believe that Marie enjoyed the sex with her father, so thanking her mother now seems unlikely. And again - would any girl this young thank her mother for giving them a job to do? You started out great in making Marie sound and act like her age, but it doesn't continue through the story]
" ...as the younger woman ..." [I'm not comfortable with you calling Marie a woman, she's not even yet a teenager. What is your definition of woman? My dictionary says, "Adult human female."] "slipped into the bedroom where her husband"
[confusing, the wording makes it sound as if either it's Marie's husband or you've just referred to Amanda as the younger woman]
"furry nest"
[furry seems a bit thick for a 12 yr old's pubic hair ... it's usually still very sparse]
"while Amanda watched her husband's prick bulge ..."
[How can she see his prick bulge if it is inside of Marie?]
"Besides, MOST girls even girls having regular unprotected sex with their own fathers pumping incestuous cum into their tummies day after day ..."
[Are we to believe that most 10 yr olds are having this much sex and that Marie knows about not only their frequency but also that it's unprotected?]
"Time enough to worry about wet-spots on the bed in the
morning. During the night ..."
[This was an afternoon nap, wasn't it?]
And finally, the following list is taken directly from your story and in order. You have managed to say the same thing with only minor differences 38 times. The first time you said it, I thought it was a very effective image, (see above) but after awhile it sort of became comical.
1. planted the bulge in her tummy
2. gobs of incestuous cum into her cramping young belly
3. his potent seed into the fertile depths of her eager young womb
4. ejaculations into each child's developing fertility
5. a man's sperm wriggling it's[its] way up in their bodies
6. Get your father to squirt his baby-stuff [in your tummy,
7. try to make sure your father squirts ALL of his baby-juice in your tummy
8. milked the older man's prick for each precious drop of incestuous seed
9. he ejaculated surge after thick white surge of sticky cream into his daughter's welcoming body.
10. copious quantities of semen the older man was injecting into the squirming young belly
11. her husband's engorged prick swelling in the child's tight little tunnel and squirting thick white gobs of incestuous cum
12. sticky goo into their daughter's belly
13. by ejaculating his lusty seed into the welcoming and fertile young belly
14. her father's cum soaking into her womb
15. millions of tiny sperm wriggling their way up into his daughter's body
16. as the older man had jerked and squirted his cum into the child's belly
17. filling the little girl's womb with jet after thick sticky jet of incestuous seed
18. ejaculating his incestuous seed in the child's womb
19. thick heavy squirt of their father's cum inside her tight little tummy
20. and spat gob after gooey white gob of incestuous sperm into the little girl's developing fertility
21. when their father had pumped his seed in thick white jets into her welcoming body.
22. Dad squirt his baby-juice in her Tummy
23. their own fathers pumping incestuous cum into their tummies
24. your father won't mind pumping his baby-juice in your little sister's cute little tummy
25. jerking and jetting thick gooey gobs of his incestuous seed into the little {delete} womb
26. could feel what it was like to have a real man pump his baby into her body
27. with a man's seed in her belly
28. with that much of her own father's baby-making cum soaking into her cute little tummy?
29. pumping his baby-juice in their tummies
30. Now that her husband would be pumping his baby-juice in the girls every day
31. with a real MAN pumping his baby-making seed in their unprotected vaginas
32. filling their cute little tummies with his babies
33. cared enough to plant his baby in their tummies
34. while he pumped his semen into the little girl's womb,
35. having him cum in them, squirt his baby-stuff in them, and plant his babies in their cute little tummies.
36. to "help out" their father by taking his incestuous seed into their tight little tummies
37. feeling her father pump a baby into her waiting fertility
38. of the man's sticky gooey cum filling her her tummy,
I hope the things I've said will help with the writing of this story. I do not read this genre so it's difficult to know if this story is better or worse than most. I've tried very hard to keep my personal prejudices about this type of story from clouding my opinions. I can only hope I've succeeded.
I think it was very brave of you Frank to post your story to the FishTank knowing it would be controversial. Thank you!
Des
From: PleaseCain
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: 23 Nov 2001 03:40:33 GMT
The ironic touches are entertaining. The mother's constant worrying about being late for Church, her being thankful for raising such proper children so willing to help their parents, and thinking she was abused as a child for not receiving similar attention.
The first paragraph exemplifies both of my suggestions. Generally, it's a good idea to lead with a real grabber, instead of a lengthy paragraph of description. And the description itself is wordy and the language can be tightened, or the same details could be dished out more naturally within the narrative instead of being concentrated in one long list.
Thanks for sharing your story with us.
Cain
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 08:01:16 -0600
On 22 Nov 2001 07:05:13 GMT, [email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote:
Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story By Frank McCoy (Mgg, incest, cons, pedo, preg, teach)
Frank~
"That it had been about a week before Marie's period ..."
[periods in girl's this age and younger are rarely regular, in fact many will have a first period and not have another for months. They will however continue to cycle hormonally, and can get pregnant at any time during the cycle.]
This is a definite disadvantage of early sex. The often untrustworthy rhythm method is very difficult to use, if it is usable at all.
But there are some exceptions. A girl whose period started when she was 10 might well be pretty regular by 12.
OTOH, even at 13 (sigh) it can be irregular enough that missing a month or two can keep you in terrifying suspense :-) That presumes that you are hoping it will come along, and the irregularity gives you a reason to believe that this is just another one of those times.
Anyway, it is possible that Marie is regular in periods.
"furry nest"
[furry seems a bit thick for a 12 yr old's pubic hair ... it's usually still very sparse]
Not always, having known a fair number of 12 yo's close enough to make comparisons. While not likely to be as much as a 16 yo's or older, it definitely can cover the entire area, and conceal well. Just as there are 12 yo's with C cup breasts (and maybe D cup, some were pretty big, but C for absolute certainty), while others don't even need a training bra.
The variability in development is one of the things that I notice about youthful sex stories. So if all of the girls are of one sort, same level of development, same pattern of periods, and all that, it feels odd.
But then, finding all of the women in a story blond haired with DD breasts, and fairly thin, as well as all the men having 8" (or more) cocks (without much mention of other features) also feels a bit odd. It doesn't mean we can't enjoy the tale, we just need to recognize the author's ideal partner issues.
I hope the things I've said will help with the writing of this story. I do not read this genre so it's difficult to know if this story is better or worse than most. I've tried very hard to keep my personal prejudices about this type of story from clouding my opinions. I can only hope I've succeeded.
I think it was very brave of you Frank to post your story to the FishTank knowing it would be controversial. Thank you!
It is. Not that some others haven't been a bit controversial, and maybe that is a good thing. Questioning our assumptions about our chosen genre can be a good thing.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Remy Nissin
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 17:19:44 GMT
On Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:52:55 -0500, "Conjugate" <[email protected]> wrote:
<snip>
Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story By Frank McCoy (Mgg, incest, cons, pedo, preg, teach)
Let's see; the visual description was nice; it gave enough detail without being distracting. And the dialog seemed realistic, or as realistic as it could be considering the subject matter.
To improve: I was a little disappointed in one sentence, "While not dressed as blatantly sexual as many girls her age, Marie wasn't out of style either." I can't make that sound grammatical in my head. And " ...as blatantly sexually ..." doesn't sound right either.
That one sounded awkward to me, too. I'd probably go with something like: "While Marie's attire [dress? clothing?] was not as blatantly sexual ...]
<snip>
From: Frank McCoy
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 19:18:42 GMT
Jeff Zephyr <[email protected]> wrote:
On 22 Nov 2001 07:05:13 GMT, [email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote:
Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story By Frank McCoy (Mgg, incest, cons, pedo, preg, teach)
Frank~
"That it had been about a week before Marie's period ..."
[periods in girl's this age and younger are rarely regular, in fact many will have a first period and not have another for months. They will however continue to cycle hormonally, and can get pregnant at any time during the cycle.]
This is a definite disadvantage of early sex. The often untrustworthy rhythm method is very difficult to use, if it is usable at all.
But there are some exceptions. A girl whose period started when she was 10 might well be pretty regular by 12.
OTOH, even at 13 (sigh) it can be irregular enough that missing a month or two can keep you in terrifying suspense :-) That presumes that you are hoping it will come along, and the irregularity gives you a reason to believe that this is just another one of those times.
Anyway, it is possible that Marie is regular in periods.
From people I've talked to, research on the subject, and some apocryphal data as well, some girls start out almost as regular as a clock, others take several months to settle down into regularity, and a FEW women always have irregular periods.
"furry nest"
[furry seems a bit thick for a 12 yr old's pubic hair ... it's usually still very sparse]
Not always, having known a fair number of 12 yo's close enough to make comparisons. While not likely to be as much as a 16 yo's or older, it definitely can cover the entire area, and conceal well. Just as there are 12 yo's with C cup breasts (and maybe D cup, some were pretty big, but C for absolute certainty), while others don't even need a training bra.
Someplace I've seen a picture of two sister, one twelve years old, and the other ten. (Nudists, I think.) Yes, with the same parents. While not really "child porn" (no emphasis on sexual matters, or even on pubic areas), what struck me was that the younger girl had full pubic hair, developing hips, and apple-sized tits, while the older girl, being probably twenty pounds heavier, looked completely prepubescent, with only the vagina and face telling the onlooker it was a girl instead of a boy. That was over 6 years ago; but the image struck me forcefully, so I can't forget it.
Someday I might write a story about that. The image is hard to forget.
I've also heard clinical cases of girls as young as six having a "full bush" of hair. Others, as young or younger, with developed breasts, and sometimes even menses. However, rarely did all come together in somebody under age nine. (I actually don't remember ever hearing of a case where ALL those signs came together below nine years of age; though there are several records of people that young or younger having babies.)
I do track all such information about things like that; it being a major interest of mine for my stories.
The variability in development is one of the things that I notice about youthful sex stories. So if all of the girls are of one sort, same level of development, same pattern of periods, and all that, it feels odd.
Exactly.
I've met girls who claimed to start menses as young as nine ...
while others didn't start until well into their teens.
Hair, breasts, and other external signs sometimes being closely related, and others not getting "boobs" until almost in their twenties. (A sad disappointment to some girls.)
But then, finding all of the women in a story blond haired with DD breasts, and fairly thin, as well as all the men having 8" (or more) cocks (without much mention of other features) also feels a bit odd. It doesn't mean we can't enjoy the tale, we just need to recognize the author's ideal partner issues.
I hope the things I've said will help with the writing of this story. I do not read this genre so it's difficult to know if this story is better or worse than most. I've tried very hard to keep my personal prejudices about this type of story from clouding my opinions. I can only hope I've succeeded.
I think it was very brave of you Frank to post your story to the FishTank knowing it would be controversial. Thank you!
It is. Not that some others haven't been a bit controversial, and maybe that is a good thing. Questioning our assumptions about our chosen genre can be a good thing.
Actually, not brave. Mostly panting and hopeful to get real comments. Flames, while disappointing, can be ignored. Comments pointing out REAL problems can be priceless.
In that line, to both of you:
!!!!THANK YOU!!!!!
/ ' /
,-/-, . __ /
(/ / ((/|/ / </ <
From: Frank McCoy
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 19:22:41 GMT
In general, to ALL the commenters:
THANK YOU, THANK YOU THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!! Geesh, I didn't really expect to get such insightful comments from everybody.
I'm going to TRY to answer each comment made, separately, but can't assure that.
I've been itching here to answer each point, as brought up, but (per the rules) have been waiting 'til Friday before starting.
I hope I can remember each response the way I originally wanted to answer ... But my memory has holes in it; so forgive me if I don't cover each item with the sincerity it deserves.
/ ' /
,-/-, . __ /
(/ / ((/|/ / </ <
From: Frank McCoy
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 19:31:25 GMT
"Conjugate" <[email protected]> wrote:
Let's see; the visual description was nice; it gave enough detail without being distracting. And the dialog seemed realistic, or as realistic as it could be considering the subject matter.
Sometimes I write stories with only dialog. It's hard there to get in some visual stimuli though.
To improve: I was a little disappointed in one sentence, "While not dressed as blatantly sexual as many girls her age, Marie wasn't out of style either." I can't make that sound grammatical in my head. And " ...as blatantly sexually ..." doesn't sound right either.
She's dressed in a sexually inviting manner; just not as blatant or extreme about it as SOME of the girls do. Put her in the top 1/4 of her class, but not the most extreme.
I'll have to look at the following suggestions to see what I like best. The first commenter never really has a chance here.
Then, too, I would have liked to see a bit more reporting of sensation. That really wouldn't work here, where the POV character isn't the one having the sex, but still we could have seen a bit more of the mother's sensation when she has an orgasm while watching. (Maybe a (voy) code would be appropriate? Not sure ....)
AUGGHHH!
Geesh, you're right. SOMETHING should be said about the Mom's
feelings ... Especially since SHE is the one who's POV is the main
part of the story. Geesh. How did I miss that?
And yes, you're right. (voy) WOULD be an appropriate code to add. (Now why didn't I think of that?) Actually ("Bad Frank. BAAAADD FRANK!"), now that I think of it, several other stories I've written should have had that code in it ... and didn't. Oh well.
Perhaps I should go through my FILES.BBS file, and edit that code into the 10-12 stories where it's really appropriate. (Damn. More work.)
Well, that's the idea of posting in the Fish Tank ... To have everybody else point out the mistakes I missed (and particularly those like the two above, where I tend to miss them repeatedly).
Thanks much!
Overall, nice, even if it's not my genre of choice.
/ ' /
,-/-, . __ /
(/ / ((/|/ / </ <
From: Frank McCoy
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 19:35:07 GMT
[email protected] (Souvie) wrote:
On Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:52:55 -0500, "Conjugate" <[email protected]> wrote:
[snip]
To improve: I was a little disappointed in one sentence, "While not dressed as blatantly sexual as many girls her age, Marie wasn't out of style either." I can't make that sound grammatical in my head. And " ...as blatantly sexually ..." doesn't sound right either.
How about "Marie might not have dressed as slutty as most girls her age did, but that didn't mean she was out of style."
Well ... She's actually MORE slutty than most; but les than the top 10%. I want her dress to sound blatantly sexual in nature, but NOT so extreme (like some girls) that it's an open invitation to sex right out in the open, if not rape.
I'll have to examine this closer, I guess.
/ ' /
,-/-, . __ /
(/ / ((/|/ / </ <
From: Frank McCoy
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 19:40:44 GMT
"Conjugate" <[email protected]> wrote:
Souvie <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ... On Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:52:55 -0500, "Conjugate" <[email protected]> wrote:
Let's see; the visual description was nice; it gave enough detail without being distracting. And the dialog seemed realistic, or as realistic as it could be considering the subject matter.
To improve: I was a little disappointed in one sentence, "While not dressed as blatantly sexual as many girls her age, Marie wasn't out of style either." I can't make that sound grammatical in my head. And " ...as blatantly sexually ..." doesn't sound right either.
How about "Marie might not have dressed as slutty as most girls her age did, but that didn't mean she was out of style."
Or, "as sluttily ...." No, there's still something not quite right. We're using an adjective where an adverb is called for, or something like that. Maybe it's just me.
"While not dressed in as blatantly sexual a style as many girls her age ..." works for me.
Probably the best solution I've heard so far. It gets the original idea across, without being long or wordy. Still, something shorter would be better.
Or perhaps "Marie might not have dressed in the same slutty way as most girls ...." Where's a grammarian when we need one?
That wouldn't work; as she WAS dressed as "slutty as most girls" if not more-so.
There's a difference between"
"She's not as blatant as most."
and
"She's not as blatant as many."
The last example being the type intended. There ARE other girls more blatantly sexual in what they wear ... but not the majority of them. A lot, but not most. She's somewhere in the uppermost 1/4.
/ ' /
,-/-, . __ /
(/ / ((/|/ / </ <
From: Frank McCoy
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 19:45:29 GMT
"Ray" <ray1031@_cac.net> wrote:
"Conjugate" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ... Souvie <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ... On Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:52:55 -0500, "Conjugate" <[email protected]> wrote:
Let's see; the visual description was nice; it gave enough detail without being distracting. And the dialog seemed realistic, or as realistic as it could be considering the subject matter.
To improve: I was a little disappointed in one sentence, "While not dressed as blatantly sexual as many girls her age, Marie wasn't out of style either." I can't make that sound grammatical in my head. And " ...as blatantly sexually ..." doesn't sound right either.
How about "Marie might not have dressed as slutty as most girls her age did, but that didn't mean she was out of style."
Or, "as sluttily ...." No, there's still something not quite right. We're using an adjective where an adverb is called for, or something like that. Maybe it's just me.
"While not dressed in as blatantly sexual a style as many girls her age ..." works for me. Or perhaps "Marie might not have dressed in the same slutty way as most girls ...." Where's a grammarian when we need one?
"As sexually blatant", or possibly "As sexually suggestive" ?
"Blatant" gets the idea across better. She's not just suggestive; but actually showing off. Just not as-much-so as some girls do. The ones who look half-stripped, with clothes practically falling off, or clothing that WOULD fall off at a mere suggestive innuendo. ;-}
She looks like she knows her sex, is PROUD of it, and wants to flaunt it. But not enough to be inviting sex with anybody male. However, she LIKES to have men look, whistle, and even ogle her body.
Trying to get that idea across in a few words, is difficult.
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From: Ray
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 16:27:09 -0500
"Frank McCoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
"Ray" <ray1031@_cac.net> wrote:
"Conjugate" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ... Souvie <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ... On Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:52:55 -0500, "Conjugate" <[email protected]> wrote:
"Blatant" gets the idea across better. She's not just suggestive; but actually showing off. Just not as-much-so as some girls do. The ones who look half-stripped, with clothes practically falling off, or clothing that WOULD fall off at a mere suggestive innuendo. ;-}
She looks like she knows her sex, is PROUD of it, and wants to flaunt it. But not enough to be inviting sex with anybody male. However, she LIKES to have men look, whistle, and even ogle her body.
Trying to get that idea across in a few words, is difficult.
Actually, Frank, it looks like you just answered your and the other question concerning this, in the simple sentence above:
"While not dressing as 'flauntingly' as some of the other girls, she was dressed to attract the attention she desired."
Ray
From: Frank McCoy
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 22:06:41 GMT
[email protected] (Gary Jordan) wrote:
The following is the 18th submission into the Fish Tank. The normal guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 things to improve
3) Try not to repeat!
This story and all other FishTank submissions are being held at:
http://www.asstr.org/~Desdmona/fishtank/base
1. 2 positive comments
A. The mother's concern for her daughters' sexual well-being is ... touching.
B. The mother's belief that her husband is a caring, sensitive man is touching as well.
2. 2 things to improve.
Taking several valid points separately:
I am wondering if Frank spent a week on FT#7 preparing us for this one.
Well ... that wasn't really the idea; except possibly to TRY and get people to comment ... Negatively or positively (preferably negatively to real problems.)
My
immediate impulse is to point out that the story would be improved greatly if the girls were each six years older
Well (Let's see if I can remember what I thought in reply from several days ago ... Sometimes I completely forget a train of thought that's truly pertinent over several days.):
The story (as I see it) just wouldn't WORK if the girls were any older. In fact, it makes a slight problem having the older one as ancient as she is. ;-}
The woman you see, is worried about BOTH girls having sex with boys who really are NOT prepared for marriage, supporting a wife, and (in particular) helping raise babies. However, she knows the kids are sexually aware, if not sexually active YET. So, the sooner she does something about it, after the younger reaches puberty, the safer she feels. Even waiting until the younger reached puberty being a risk ... but one she felt was only "fair". And, she didn't feel that a girl under puberty would be driven to have sex like an older girl would ... in spite of some girls dressing like "kindersluts" when eight or nine ... or sometimes even younger.
So, a month or two after the younger reached puberty was: A. As early as possible for the younger girl. B. As late as prudent (and possibly by her view TOO late). for the older one.
and the father was a step-father (no blood kin)
A good point; but HERE, in THIS story, she wanted their FATHER to be the one; figuring that a step-father wouldn't love somebody else's children as much as his own ... and even children BY stepchildren wouldn't be quite as close.
Besides, that's the bigger turn-on in an incest story: The closer the relationship, the bigger the taboo, the bigger the punch of the story.
and safe sex were practiced with birth control pills and condoms. But that would take it out of Frank's genre and into another one entirely. So ...
Well ... That too.
Hmmm ... Every other argument I come up with on THAT one,
practically boils down to agreeing with you on that case.
Pregnancy does seem to be the biggest common factor in all of my stories, whether incest related, or not. Even age doesn't factor into my stories as much as that one does. Having sex without at least chancing pregnancy is in very few of my stories. To me, that's kind of like kissing your lover on the cheek, instead of on the mouth. Not nearly as erotic. Yeah, it CAN be fun, but nowhere near as exciting.
A. The mother should be more truthful with her children from the start. The discussion of "helping Daddy sleep" should let the girls know that sex can be enervating and/or relaxing, and the latter will help the old man sleep.
That's Mom.
She's trying to resolve an internal conflict; and not succeeding very
well. Actually, she's just too bloody EMBARRASED to ask the kids
outright to have babies by their father. So ... she kind of sneaks
the idea in; hoping they'll already be fucking and LIKING to fuck,
before the idea of the consequences fully sinks in ... and then it'll
be too late, because they'll be hooked.
Yeah, she should be more truthful with the kids. In some stories I write, the moms are. It's just not this one. Here, it's an internal conflict in her mind between wanting the kids to know and agree up front, and the idea of sneaking a baby in each of their bellies before they can object. So ... she tells them about babies first; then pulls a cutesey-poo bit about "helping Daddy" when it's really herself she wants the girls to help ... Help her have more babies. You might think of it as rationalization. This way she can convince herself that while the girls were just "helping out their father" it was really THEIR decision to go ahead and have babies. After all: She DID teach them where babies come from, didn't she? That they didn't ask for birth-control while doing so, isn't HER fault. (Never mind that she never suggested it.)
I guess you might say she was more lying to herself than the kids.
B. Mom should also stop beating around the bush and ask her daughters to have babies instead of simply putting them in a situation that will have that result. It's obvious thet the elder daughter recognizes the situation, and is in favor of it. Why pretend? Who is she fooling?
Nobody. (See above.)
Actually, elder daughter isn't "in favor of it"; she just doesn't see
anything WRONG with it. Later, when waking up at 2:00AM for feeding a
hungry child every night, she might have some doubts about how smart
that was. But Mom and Dad never made those problems all that
apparent. A good case of not telling the kids everything they needed
to know.
Sadly these days, that sort of ignorance is exactly WHY so many young girls end up with big bellies: They think it will be FUN!
(Why do you think MOM wants the kids to help her out? SHE knows the bother of having babies ... but wants the fun of raising them again.)
Yeah, Mom is selfish.
Overall, Ewwwwwwwwww.
Ah!
A truly honest opinion.
Thanks.
Sorry if you feel I forced you into reviewing this one. That wasn't the idea; but I do appreciate the effort you made.
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From: Frank McCoy
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 22:06:43 GMT
[email protected] (Remy Nissin) wrote:
On Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:52:55 -0500, "Conjugate" <[email protected]> wrote:
<snip>
Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story By Frank McCoy (Mgg, incest, cons, pedo, preg, teach)
Let's see; the visual description was nice; it gave enough detail without being distracting. And the dialog seemed realistic, or as realistic as it could be considering the subject matter.
To improve: I was a little disappointed in one sentence, "While not dressed as blatantly sexual as many girls her age, Marie wasn't out of style either." I can't make that sound grammatical in my head. And " ...as blatantly sexually ..." doesn't sound right either.
That one sounded awkward to me, too. I'd probably go with something like: "While Marie's attire [dress? clothing?] was not as blatantly sexual ...]
So far, something along that line seems best. I'll have to try several different wordings, I guess.
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From: Frank McCoy
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 22:06:44 GMT
[email protected] (mat twassel) wrote:
Strengths:
Good dialogue. It defines the characters and situation and advances the story appropriately.
Sometimes I didn't get the sense this was a real family in a traditional sense and yet the characters is some other sense came through bright and clear: the father, for example, was someone who did nothing but sleep and fuck - a lump and a cock;
A sad failing I fear, of MANY of my stories. Since I tend to have the fantasy of BEING a young girl who's allowed to have unlimited sex (and if not a girl, then a boy), then Daddy in such stories tends to be just a convenient fuck; while I concentrate on the girl's personality, and tell how SHE feels about enjoying sex.
I really should do more about that. It's got the same fault as I pointed out in another thread about throwaway characters in a slasher-movie. Just brought into the plot THERE, to die; and HERE to be a lump for a girl to have sex with.
OTOH, the guy in this story doesn't NEED much personality; though I'll agree he would liven up the story if I gave him some.
the older daughter was both wary
and trying to fit in, trying to please, as she left childhood; the younger daughter was a cipher; and the
True.
The younger girl you only saw as, "little sister" who liked sex.
Since she didn't do anything more than appear in the thoughts of Mom
and her older sister, there wasn't any interaction with her.
mom wanted to do the right thing for her family. So whether this is brilliant work or an accident or a failure depends a bit on your intentions.
Actually, that whole "wanting to do the right thing" is just rationalization on Mom's part (as covered elsewhere in the thread). Yeah, she DOES want to do right by her kids; and DOESN'T want them accidentally knocked-up by some strange kid in the back seat of a car. She also wants her kids to enjoy sex without fears of pregnancy or punishment. But: Her main reason (that she almost denies to herself) is to have more kids around the house; figuring that since she isn't pregnant after the last three years of trying, she'll get her daughters to "help out". That this isn't really the right way to do such things, she conveniently ignores.
It's amazing what rationalization will do.
In the
opening, did you mean, for example, to have the mom describe the daughter as if it was someone she'd never seen before?
Actually, THERE the idea was twofold:
1. To introduce the character of the girl as somebody sexually aware.
2. To show that her mom was aware of the child's dress ... and that
it was getting more extreme all the time. Children grow up; and
sometimes it seems need to be re-introduced to their parents every
year or so. ;-}
Weaknesses:
Plot/story line: The opening and closing are okay, but the middle, filled with repetitive elements, seems to wander off. The meandering could come from the absence of tension or that there's no real conflict. The introduction of the younger child might boost the theme but it dilutes the story.
<Sigh.>
What can I say here, but that I agree?
I'm not too sure of what could be done to fix it though.
Some of the longer passages suffer from blockiness: stacks of elements which don't quite blend or flow as smoothly as they might.
THERE, it might be more useful if you'd pick one as an example.
Thanks!!!!
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From: Frank McCoy
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 22:06:45 GMT
"Poison Ivan" <[email protected]> wrote:
For a sex story, there is almost no sex. There is very little action, even. Mostly we hear the mother repeatedly summarizing the "sex education" night from a few weeks back, using minor variations of the same phrases over and over again.
Huh?
Here I thought the sex was rather more of the story than necessary.
I hate summary in fiction. I like stories to be "in scene." I'd like to see more dialog, more description of action as it's happening. I think you should cut as much of the mother's repetitive reminiscing as you possibly can - I think you should be able to cut at least a third of this story without changing it noticeably.
Damn. Here I was planning on adding MORE to the mother's part of the story.
Well ... Wait.
You said "reminiscing."
Perhaps that's the parts where she remembers the girl (or girls)
having sex?
Damn. That's most of the sex in the story. I'm not sure how to remove that without cutting out almost all of the "wank material". Yeah, some of it was intended just for that. And (I presume) most of the reminiscing was put in for that purpose.
Might make a better story if I did ... but less of a jack-off thing too. I guess it's a matter of which type of story is intended: One to make a person think, or be wank material while lying in bed. This particular story being pretty much right in the middle, as my stories go.
Also, her reminiscing should be more varied. It isn't enough to just mention the "cum shot" over and over again - after two or three repetitions, it gets boring; after twenty repetitions, it's excrutiating. If the cum shot is what's exciting to you, have the action build up to it, make it the climax of the scene.
Ah yes.
I will admit that I tend to overdo that.
I'm not quite sure what to say there.
Many of the stories I read, I find lacking in those spots; and have
even edited private copies to add more of that action. I presume
some people read my stories just for that. For certain I actually
DO go in, and try to find spots where "more of the same" will fit
in, without using the same word.
Well ... Basically, isn't real sex just:
In.
Out.
In.
Out.
In.
Out.
In.
Out.
In.
Out.
In.
Out.
In.
Out.
In.
Out.
In.
Out.
In.
Out.
Squirt.
Jerk.
Squirt.
Squirt.
"Aaahhhh. That felt good!"
It's the repetitive rubbing that makes a person cum. If described THAT way in a story though, it's (like you say) excruciating. OTOH, if somebody is following the story and actually jacking-off or using it as stimulation material with a SO, then if you DON'T provide a fairly long "cum shot" then the people following won't get off either.
That's one thing that really bugs me about "erotic stories" like you find in the supermarket: Leading up to sex for chapters ... and then when it actually happens, it sounds like a premature ejaculation.
I try to make my stories (especially ones of intermediate length like this one) about half and half. Half story, and half wank. Longer stories tend to get to be up to 90% story, and 10% or less wank material).
There is a a little action here and there, and that's where the story is at its best. The discussion between Marie and Amanda at the beginning is great (but too short!) And the short stretch where the mother is getting dressed in the bedroom is good too. These types of scenes really make the story move along, and they need to be a much larger proportion of the story.
I'll agree.
In fact, I'll TRY to add more (though sometimes it's hard in an almost
complete story like this).
In other words, pare the summary down to a minimum, then build up your good action scenes, making them more substantial.
Uh ... Now I'm not sure.
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From: Frank McCoy
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 22:06:46 GMT
[email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote:
Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story By Frank McCoy (Mgg, incest, cons, pedo, preg, teach)
Frank~
There is a wonderful moment in the beginning of this story when Amanda approaches Marie:
The young woman addressed lifted her eyes to meet her mother's. Marie had been fully aware of the older woman's presence; but figured her mother would speak up when she was ready. In the meantime, the painful embarrassment of the young man in the story she was reading, was quite absorbing. "Yes, Mom?" she replied; not committing herself. Whatever her mother wanted, she would learn.
It's a perfect 12 year old's response. And later when Marie is rationalizing about her younger sister, the rationalization is so irrational that I can believe it's coming from a 12 year old.
I can see your point ... But that's just the way the story appeared in my mind. I guess you might say it was about half the fantasy the whole story was written about.
The description in this paragraph is very visual and made me think of the times when I was younger and would hear someone say something nasty. I would always be titillated by their boldness:
"especially when her first time ended with her own father's swollen penis twitching, jerking, and ejaculating thick sticky gobs of incestuous cum into her cramping young belly; spasming jet after gooey jet of his potent seed into the fertile depths of her eager young womb ..."
Heh.
Somebody once called such paragraphs of mine:
"Sophomoric fantasies" which young men of high-school age would have.
I'll address more about this later.
I like the use of colloquialisms like:
"and probably safely past the girl's best time to 'catch'
It gives a 'down-in-the-hills' sound to Amanda, which is sort of a cliche of Hill Folk, but adds credence to her misguided reasoning.
Well, that WAS some of the idea. She's a complex person that thinks some things, yet is ignorant of many others that many people would expect her to be aware of. She's also rationalizing her actions in some things she feels a little guilty of.
I've decided to point out the inconsistencies that I noted simply because that is what you have asked for Frank.
Aha! ;-}
Thanks, much!
" ...where unneeded black underwear held apple-sized bosoms from bouncing"
[what's unneeded the color black or the bra itself? Because the purpose of a bra is to prevent bouncing - so if she bounces then maybe the bra is needed]
Um ... The bra is unneeded.
The bouncing is minimal; and would probably be better (or at least
sexier) if she didn't have the bra. It adds little or nothing to her
sexiness; flattening what she has, almost as much as adding.
" ...which were just a TINY bit loose at the top; hinting that they MIGHT fall down ..."
[The jeans can't hint at falling down if they're so skin tight that you can make out the rib of her panties.]
Ever see pants left unbuttoned at the top button? I've seen girls do this deliberately until, despite being skin-tight, they look like the next button will pop and the pants WILL be on the floor before the girl can stop them. I think girls (Oh yeah, and guys too!) often deliberately TRY to see just how close they can get without the clothes actually falling off. I suspect many hours spent prancing around the house, just TRYING to see how tight or loose works without actually losing them. Then, when perfected, they wear the outfits to the mall to see who's going to look.
I'm just trying to describe outfits I've seen. Perhaps it's not a good job of doing so.
"Well ... How COULD a girl forget something like that ... especially when her first time ended with her own father's swollen penis twitching, jerking, and ejaculating thick sticky gobs of incestuous cum into her cramping young belly; spasming jet after gooey jet of his potent seed into the fertile depths of her eager young womb, as the man actually attempted to father a child on his own daughter before she reached the fifth grade?"
[whose POV is this?At first I thought it was Marie's but by the end of it, it sounds like the voice of Amanda] [This paragraph does not lead me to believe that Marie enjoyed it all (her cramping belly doesn't sound like much fun) - which makes it even harder to believe that she will want to do it again]
It is the voice of Amanda ... Thinking about her little girl. She's imagining how SHE would have felt in that case.
I'll admit that's not too clear.
Especially when later parts of the story switch to Marie's viewpoint.
"That it had been about a week before Marie's period ..."
[periods in girl's this age and younger are rarely regular, in fact many will have a first period and not have another for months. They will however continue to cycle hormonally, and can get pregnant at any time during the cycle.]
I was under the impression that early regularity varies tremendously from girl to girl; with SOME women starting with a rush and rarely if ever missing a period after the first start, and others being so irregular as to be frightening ... especially to a sexually active girl.
"Again, she had to stop, catch her breath, and gulp down a lump in her throat before continuing,"
[Amanda reservations seem meant to pacify the reader more than her own beliefs. If she feels what she is doing is absolutely OK, then why does she hesitate? Hesitation denotes some sort of indecision. If she's not decided that what she is doing is right, how will the reader decide it is ok? Maybe it would be more effective if the hesitation were because she's unsure of 'the teenage response which can be extremely fickle]
Oh, she doesn't feel that what she's doing is OK. She has far more reservations than either her husband or either daughter does. (I kind of explain this in more detail elsewhere in the thread.)
She feels a little guilty about what she's about. Mainly about things that she did not tell the girls about having babies. Pain of pregnancy, sleepless nights, giving birth, midnight feedings, and similar things being just a few. Yeah, the girls know they could get pregnant ... but they also have somewhat rosy ideas about what being pregnant and having babies is really like. And Amanda has carefully not told the kids about those negatives. So ... She feels guilty.
Even though the kids are OK about having kids of their own.
"Uh, Mom? Are you sure about this? You don't mind? I mean, Dad's YOUR husband, after all."
[This response sounds more like a preteen being asked to fix dad dinner, rather than have sex. It's too nonchalant. So we have the mother hemhauling around and the 12 yr old agreeing with very little hesitation: Do children this age agree to do anything so willingly?]
Well (as pointed out above) the kid has had fantasies about having babies ... and Mom never punctured any balloons. All the kid ever saw was her little sister being raised (only two years younger) and THAT always was a fun thing.
"As she started to unzip the tight dress that showed off her still attractive body, she heard her eldest daughter's faint, "Thanks, Mom,"
[So far I've seen nothing that leads me to believe that Marie enjoyed the sex with her father, so thanking her mother now seems unlikely. And again - would any girl this young thank her mother for giving them a job to do? You started out great in making Marie sound and act like her age, but it doesn't continue through the story]
She's thanking Mom for being ALLOWED to have sex (and babies). She knows (from school and other places) how SOME parents get all uptight when they find their kids having sex ... let alone those that show up PG. Some kids her age have fantasies about how "nice* it would be to have a baby of their own. It's just that having Mom not only allow this, but APPROVE isn't something a girl expects from her own mother. So, she's surprised, but thanks her mother for the opportunity.
Her little sister however, just likes sex (from what she's felt) and doesn't much think at all of having babies; it being something like eventually growing up and having a job: Something that WILL happen eventually, but not something she'd think about NOW.
I hope that explains it.
There's more, but I find it hard to put down in words.
" ...as the younger woman ..." [I'm not comfortable with you calling Marie a woman, she's not even yet a teenager. What is your definition of woman? My dictionary says, "Adult human female."] "slipped into the bedroom where her husband"
Here, she's nubile and fertile.
Thus: A young woman.
A person old enough to marry and have babies, can to some extent be considered an adult. Throughout history, the age of 12 was often a prime time for a young woman to start both. It's only RECENTLY that there ever was considered or invented the idea of adolescence. You were either a child being raised by parents, or an adult capable of work, earning a living, and raising a family of your own. Such things commonly started at puberty. Marie is two years past the start of menarche.
[confusing, the wording makes it sound as if either it's Marie's husband or you've just referred to Amanda as the younger woman]
Um ... Damn. You're right.
It's HARD to talk about two women in the same sentence without having
some confusion, when you use pronouns instead of all proper names.
Sometimes it takes considerably rewording to keep from overusing
names, while retaining identities. I'll look at that again.
"furry nest"
[furry seems a bit thick for a 12 yr old's pubic hair ... it's usually still very sparse]
I mind some girls ....
Oh well. Discussed later in the thread.
"while Amanda watched her husband's prick bulge ..."
[How can she see his prick bulge if it is inside of Marie?]
What little is outside.
Ever look at a picture of two people fucking?
Damned rarely does all of a man's prick fit inside a woman.
Viewed with a man lying down, and the woman on top, facing his feet,
there's almost always an inch or so that is visible, as the view
doesn't allow the compete penetration that "missionary style" does
when the woman's legs are wrapped around the man.
That's how I envisioned the above scene.
"Besides, MOST girls even girls having regular unprotected sex with their own fathers pumping incestuous cum into their tummies day after day ..."
[Are we to believe that most 10 yr olds are having this much sex and that Marie knows about not only their frequency but also that it's unprotected?]
She knows about some girls her age, who've boasted about having sex for several years. Only a very few of her classmates ever ending up with big bellies though. this being her THOUGHTS on the matter, she has some fairly-obvious misunderstandings of the realities of such matters, including (but not limited to): 1. Most girls, even those having sex, don't do so with their own fathers. She just assumes so, because that's how SHE started. 2. She doesn't know much about birth-control either; mainly only hearing about condoms ... and knows how hard THOSE are for kids her age to get ... so again she assumes that girls younger than her just don't get PG while having sex ... or at least, not very often. 3. Having had sex once, she can't imagine giving it up if it's available. So she thinks anybody else who has had sex is having REGULAR sex. She would, if she could.
"Time enough to worry about wet-spots on the bed in the
morning. During the night ..."
[This was an afternoon nap, wasn't it?]
Ah!
I wondered if anybody besides me would catch that one!
<Sigh.>
I noticed this; but never changed it because the easy wording to
explain Mom would leave the wet spot on the bed until doing laundry in
the morning was just too complicated. Her husband would sleep on the
wet-spot, since he made it.
But you're right. It IS jarring there. I'm not sure of any easy fix.
And finally, the following list is taken directly from your story and in order. You have managed to say the same thing with only minor differences 38 times. The first time you said it, I thought it was a very effective image, (see above) but after awhile it sort of became comical.
1. planted the bulge in her tummy
2. gobs of incestuous cum into her cramping young belly 3. his potent seed into the fertile depths of her eager young womb 4. ejaculations into each child's developing fertility 5. a man's sperm wriggling it's[its] way up in their bodies 6. Get your father to squirt his baby-stuff [in your tummy, 7. try to make sure your father squirts ALL of his baby-juice in your tummy 8. milked the older man's prick for each precious drop of incestuous seed 9. he ejaculated surge after thick white surge of sticky cream into his daughter's welcoming body. 10. copious quantities of semen the older man was injecting into the squirming young belly 11. her husband's engorged prick swelling in the child's tight little tunnel and squirting thick white gobs of incestuous cum 12. sticky goo into their daughter's belly 13. by ejaculating his lusty seed into the welcoming and fertile young belly 14. her father's cum soaking into her womb 15. millions of tiny sperm wriggling their way up into his daughter's body 16. as the older man had jerked and squirted his cum into the child's belly 17. filling the little girl's womb with jet after thick sticky jet of incestuous seed 18. ejaculating his incestuous seed in the child's womb 19. thick heavy squirt of their father's cum inside her tight little tummy 20. and spat gob after gooey white gob of incestuous sperm into the little girl's developing fertility 21. when their father had pumped his seed in thick white jets into her welcoming body. 22. Dad squirt his baby-juice in her Tummy 23. their own fathers pumping incestuous cum into their tummies 24. your father won't mind pumping his baby-juice in your little sister's cute little tummy 25. jerking and jetting thick gooey gobs of his incestuous seed into the little {delete} womb 26. could feel what it was like to have a real man pump his baby into her body 27. with a man's seed in her belly 28. with that much of her own father's baby-making cum soaking into her cute little tummy? 29. pumping his baby-juice in their tummies 30. Now that her husband would be pumping his baby-juice in the girls every day 31. with a real MAN pumping his baby-making seed in their unprotected vaginas 32. filling their cute little tummies with his babies 33. cared enough to plant his baby in their tummies 34. while he pumped his semen into the little girl's womb, 35. having him cum in them, squirt his baby-stuff in them, and plant his babies in their cute little tummies. 36. to "help out" their father by taking his incestuous seed into their tight little tummies 37. feeling her father pump a baby into her waiting fertility 38. of the man's sticky gooey cum filling her her tummy,
Gee.
Yeah, I DO go WAY overboard on such descriptions ... and I'll
admit I do have a pregnancy-fetish. Pregnant women bringing an almost
teary-eyed admiration from me. I truly envy their ability to have a
baby when THEY want to. (I know ... SOME women see it as a penalty,
being the one who HAS to carry the child.) I suspect that if I had
been a girl, then I probably would have been PG a few months after my
first period ... and then repeatedly so every time I could afford
another one thereafter.
WHY I go overboard in that manner though, with cum-shots and imagining what's going on inside, is mainly ME just writing wanking material in the way that works best for me, when I'm reading it. Since I like to READ a lot of stuff like that, I put it in the stories I write.
I hope the things I've said will help with the writing of this story. I do not read this genre so it's difficult to know if this story is better or worse than most. I've tried very hard to keep my personal prejudices about this type of story from clouding my opinions. I can only hope I've succeeded.
A very good job indeed.
I think it was very brave of you Frank to post your story to the FishTank knowing it would be controversial. Thank you!
Not brave, hoping to get comments even 1/4 as helpful as those I got. Thank YOU!
Now I'll probably have to go back and completely rewrite the entire thing ... after going through it repeatedly before posting.
And THAT was exactly the idea, and why I picked this story.
It was medium-length; and thus a cross between mainly STORY, and wank-material or propaganda. Thus giving people something in the middle of the range of what I write as a better target.
It was ALSO a story I had "finished". By that, I mean I had polished each element until I couldn't find anything to correct or add after repeated readings in hard-copy. Yea, in those re-readings and additions, I did add lots of those sentences of the type you so-noticed, with "little girls' tummies filled with baby-making seed" or similar stuff.
I THOUGHT I had pretty much said what was intended in the story, and it didn't need a lot of improvement.
But that's the trouble: I can't see the type of mistakes I make all the time ... otherwise I wouldn't put them in! It's the old, "I didn't think of that, because I didn't think of that!" type of problem. Obviously, if I had thought of that, I already would have fixed it ... and re-reading the story doesn't bring to mind things I don't normally look for or think about.
That's why I guess I'd prefer a "Piranha Tank" to a "Fish Tank". ;-} People pointing out troubles with my stories are SO much more useful in fixing future ones that comments about why they're liked. Usually I know why people like my stories (and sometimes why they dislike them). It's what's WRONG with the stories that's hard to see. After all, if I knew what was wrong, I wouldn't WRITE it that way. ;-}
Thank, everybody, and you in particulars for this opportunity. Now I'm going to have to sit down and work over that story again.
Some of the things almost certainly will be fixed; while others (like those overblown comments about little girls with big tummies) will just have to remain, as being the way I write and what SOME people come to read my stories for. Even if I DO agree they're annoying to some readers. If I take them out, then some of those who come to expect such from my stories will miss them ... and I will too!
Sometimes (IMHO) having a "better" story isn't the main purpose in writing one. Sometimes the aim is something different entirely. (Propaganda, wanking, advertisement, satire, etc.)
BUT, it's nice to know what WOULD make a better story, when that's what you want to write. If you don't know what people object to, then how are you going to know what they will like?
Thanks again.
/ ' /
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From: Frank McCoy
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 22:06:50 GMT
[email protected] (PleaseCain) wrote:
The ironic touches are entertaining. The mother's constant worrying about being late for Church, her being thankful for raising such proper children so willing to help their parents, and thinking she was abused as a child for not receiving similar attention.
She's also got an internal worry that's not addressed in the story. Wanting two things: More kids, AND the kids having the fun she felt she missed out on, she's deliberately made having babies seem all fun and no downside to the girls ... and she feels slightly guilty about that.
Maybe I should have some indication of that .... But then, Amanda (whose viewpoint the story is mainly told from) is trying to fool herself on this matter. Rationalization.
The first paragraph exemplifies both of my suggestions. Generally, it's a good idea to lead with a real grabber, instead of a lengthy paragraph of description. And the description itself is wordy and the language can be tightened, or the same details could be dished out more naturally within the narrative instead of being concentrated in one long list.
I'll admit that I'm not really good at the short pithy sentences that some people can use to describe things in a few words that take me whole paragraphs.
<Sigh.>
THAT, I guess, comes down to talent.
I know I have some; but not that.
My ideal being to someday write Like Zenna Henderson, who could give
you a panoramic view in one short sentence or two. She wrote
short-stories; never NEEDING more words to put into them what took
novels for other people to write.
But I'm afraid that kind of talent is built-in, and I can only dream about having it.
I'll keep trying to improve though. I think I'm better now than even a year ago.
Thanks for sharing your story with us.
Cain
You're welcome.
/ ' /
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From: Frank McCoy
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 22:06:51 GMT
Damn.
I didn't think I missed THIS much.
Oh well. Major rewrite coming up.
Thanks all.
It's what I really wanted.
/ ' /
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(/ / ((/|/ / </ <
From: Poison Ivan
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 22:27:11 -0500
"Frank McCoy" wrote ...
"Poison Ivan" <[email protected]> wrote:
For a sex story, there is almost no sex. There is very little action, even. Mostly we hear the mother repeatedly summarizing the "sex education" night from a few weeks back, using minor variations of the same phrases over and over again.
Huh?
Here I thought the sex was rather more of the story than necessary.
I suppose I should clarify a little bit here. There is plenty of sex in this story, but none of the sex is described in detail as it's happening. It's simply referred to in a shadowy way. I have no idea what that sex was like because the mother doesn't describe it, except in a single sentence summary ("He deposited his potent seed in her trembling belly.")
Let's put it another way. Your sex scene is only one sentence long, which is far too short. True, you repeat the same sentence 38 times (by Des's count), but repeating an inadequately described sex scene doesn't make it any more vivid.
I would like to see your sex placed in an actual scene, with an actual beginning, middle and end. It needs to be several paragaphs long, not just one sentence long. And there needs to be enough detail for me to envision the action taking place.
Poison Ivan
^ remembers Katie McN giving a nice mini-lecture on this subject
From: Frank McCoy
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 04:44:03 GMT
[email protected] (mat twassel) wrote:
Some of the longer passages suffer from blockiness: stacks of elements which don't quite blend or flow as smoothly as they might.
THERE, it might be more useful if you'd pick one as an example.
Amanda knew her daughter knew how sexy she was. The
[The previous paragraph helps alleviate the pronoun confusion, but still ... ]
situation had precipitated the dilemma she was now faced with.
[What situation? "Precipitated" is quite formal. It's not quite clear what the dilemma is. Awkward preposition at the tail; why not: " ...which she now faced"?]
The situation of Marie knowing how sexy she was ... and flaunting it. Precipitated ... brought about. Not exactly too formal I'd say; but maybe a bit ... uh ... erudite? I know, I know. We should endeavor to abstain from obfuscation.
Geesh. ;-}
The dilemma ... Hm ... that isn't clear yet, is it?
I guess I should put something in there about what happens to sexy
young girls who flaunt it, instead of waiting until later in the
story.
That Marie so far hadn't gone down the road of some of her girlfriends had, with tiny tube tops, pierced navels, and shorts so short they almost were micro-miniskirts, she considered a blessing. Girls who advertised like that usually ended up
["Had" jerks this sentence around. Again some slight pronoun confusion. And the road metaphor doesn't exactly fit tube tops, navels, and shorts.]
Erk.
You're right, it doesn't. But I'm damned if I see what metaphor WOULD
go well here. (I like metaphors in context like that.) I guess I'll
have to think about that one.
getting what they advertised for ... a big belly, with no idea of who the guy was who had planted the bulge in her tummy. Marie at
[Two "who's" reads strange to me. Part of me likes it.]
But it's more "correct" than using the alterate form of "who the guy was that had planted the bulge in her belly." I examined both in early perusing of the story, and decided on the double-who.
least, if Amanda's plans worked out, would not have that worry.
[The way "at least" is used is quite conversational, but it causes some reading strain.]
Again, I TRIED a couple of alternatives earlier when editing; and didn't fine easy substitutes. Perhaps I should have tried harder. The "conversational" tone was what I wanted the whole story to be in; as if being told it by an observer, rather than an omniscient being.
Nor would the girl's sister. The woman had seen all too often
[Curious POV "girl's sister" instead of a daughter reference.]
Amanda's POV at that time was thinking about Marie ... and incidentally her little sister, not Amanda's younger daughter, which had no relationship to the older girl. It was thinking of two SISTERS as being a pair, not two separate daughters of hers, if you get my pitch.
what happened when girls exercised their blossoming puberty without taking precautions, and having a man who truly CARED for both woman and child to take care of them. No, she would do all
[The phrase "and having ..." is punctuated improperly, and it doesn't quite make sense even without the comma. Furthermore, I'm confused by "woman" and "child"]
Should be a semicolon, or start a new sentence. In the W&C case, it means the woman (her daughter) having a baby (the child). Mothers DO eventually see their children as adults ... especially when thinking of them having children of their own. I can see how it might not be too clear in the context, with THREE people being discussed at the same time.
she could to see that HER girls' kids had their father around, just like they had. And Amanda knew she had to work quickly,
[Tacked on phrase "just like they had" isn't as clear as it should be. Part of the problem again might be the pronoun.]
Most likely. It is awkward. But most solutions I come up with are rather wordy. Not sure what to say there.
before hormones took over and the girl sitting in the chair ended up in the back seat of a car, with the baby of a boy who didn't even like her in the child's tummy. Thus the "sex education"
[" ...with the baby" is hard to scan. Crazy sentence. It sounds at first that the baby is sitting in the car. It sounds at first that the boy is in the child's tummy. And is the child the baby or the girl? Yes, I can figure it out, but it shouldn't be a minor puzzle.]
Yup, yup. Good point.
And yes, I did see that when editing it before ... but (obviously I
guess) didn't spend enough time figuring out a solution. Some people
are good at wording things like this ... but I stumble all over the
place until I find something decent. If I want to get a story done in
under a month or two, often I leave such things in. ;-{
Talent it takes, that I'm afraid I lack. I only accomplish that task with rather hard work.
instructions of two weeks ago, and her present plans.
[Here's the kicker: this whole paragraph is probably unnecessary. Almost everything in here comes out in the "present" of the story. The few details which don't, if important, can be integrated with what follows.
[And yet the paragraph does have personality. So I don't know. But I'd cut it, it not completely, maybe to three sentences. And at least one of these a very short sentence.]
And, as I say: Yes, it COULD probably be cut to a sentence or two .... by somebody with talent. I'm afraid I just don't have that much at making pithy sentences that give wonderful ideas in just a word or two.
Oh, SOMETIMES in the middle of the night I wake up with such a sentence in my mind ... But if I don't write it down in that exact form within a few minutes, then usually I never do remember the gem I had. Occasionally, I've been known to base an entire story around a wonderful line like that. But if I don't start the story within a reasonable time of the original thought, then the story usually comes out like shit, in spite of the one good line.
When looking for a way to reduce whole paragraphs however, I'm usually worthless without stripping most of the meaning out as well.
It's perhaps for that and similar reasons that I don't make a good supervisor ... I can't explain reasons for or methods of doing things to others, in ways that don't take longer to explain than for me to do the job myself.
So ... Am I then a lousy, no-talent, story writer who shouldn't bother? Sometimes I wonder, but then ...
... then somebody begs me for more, or I find myself reading a story I wrote for pleasure, instead of something somebody else wrote.
While I'll probably never be a Zenna Henderson (my ideal for short pithy writing) I do have people who like what I do, even if it is long and wordy. Sometimes I even like it myself.
But I'll agree ... Sometimes I get WAY too carried away in telling one small part of a tale.
I'm just not too sure what I can do about that. I'll look it over though, with your comments in mind.
/ ' /
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(/ / ((/|/ / </ <
From: Desdmona
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: 24 Nov 2001 04:46:34 GMT
From: [email protected] (Frank McCoy)
<The bouncing is minimal; and would probably be better (or at least
sexier) if she didn't have the bra. It adds little or nothing to her sexiness; flattening what she has, almost as much as adding.
Maybe you should word it more like this in the story. In fact, what you wrote in response makes it a lot more vivid. Besides where I come from (Midwest Ohio) "apple-sized bosoms" are not small - unless your apples are seconds.
Ever see pants left unbuttoned at the top button? I've seen girls do this deliberately until, despite being skin-tight, they look like the next button will pop and the pants WILL be on the floor before the girl can stop them. I think girls (Oh yeah, and guys too!) often deliberately TRY to see just how close they can get without the clothes actually falling off. I suspect many hours spent prancing around the house, just TRYING to see how tight or loose works without actually losing them. Then, when perfected, they wear the outfits to the mall to see who's going to look.
First, you didn't say they were unbuttoned at the top, at least I don't think you did. It just says they are a little loose at the top. Second, I still can't believe that jeans that are so tight that you can make out the panty line would fall off of anyone, even if they were unbuttoned and unzipped all the way. (And especially over the hips of a girl who's been menstruating for quite awhile. Most body changes happen before menstruating begins) But again, what you just wrote would be a great addition to the story, making it Marie that dances around the house seeing how low she can get her pants to go. Then the jeans don't have to be described as both skin tight, and loose enough to fall down.
I'm just trying to describe outfits I've seen. Perhaps it's not a good job of doing so.
I think "outfits" is the problem. It sounds like you're trying to describe two different sexy looks. The tight jean is one look; the sort of baggy jean worn way down on the hips is another.
A person old enough to marry and have babies, can to some extent be considered an adult. Throughout history, the age of 12 was often a prime time for a young woman to start both. It's only RECENTLY that there ever was considered or invented the idea of adolescence. You were either a child being raised by parents, or an adult capable of work, earning a living, and raising a family of your own. Such things commonly started at puberty. Marie is two years past the start of menarche.
You've taken the words: 12 yr old girl and used them gratuitously. There's nothing about this girl that makes her 12 except for the one small action at the beginning of the story. You've given her apple sized bosoms, full thick pubic hair, regular periods, able to make passionate sex after just one bout with dad two weeks ago. She knows more about the sex lives of every elementary student in her school than I do about my best friends, and heck you even justify calling her an adult because 12 some time in history was normal. So why on earth even make her 12? Apparently just reading the words:12 yr old is the turn on? From further up in the thread you and Jeff agreed on there being some differences in the 12 year old or they would all be the same. Well, IMO that's exactly what you've done, you've made the 12 yr old absolutely no different than a woman of 18 or 20 or 24 etc. And it appears you've made her 12 simply to be able to code it pedo. If you want to make her unique, then you need to add a lot more 12 year old actions, and thoughts, if not physical descriptions.
What little is outside.
Ever look at a picture of two people fucking? Damned rarely does all of a man's prick fit inside a woman. Viewed with a man lying down, and the woman on top, facing his feet, there's almost always an inch or so that is visible, as the view doesn't allow the compete penetration that "missionary style" does when the woman's legs are wrapped around the man.
Then you need to describe it as such, I can understand what picture you're painting now as you describe it, but in your story you give conflicting descriptions. Buried deep inside of her and sticking out for Amanda to see.
Yeah, I DO go WAY overboard on such descriptions ... and I'll admit I do have a pregnancy-fetish. Pregnant women bringing an almost teary-eyed admiration from me. I truly envy their ability to have a baby when THEY want to. (I know ... SOME women see it as a penalty, being the one who HAS to carry the child.) I suspect that if I had been a girl, then I probably would have been PG a few months after my first period ... and then repeatedly so every time I could afford another one thereafter.
Spoken just like a man who's never been pregnant!
Many of your explanations were given using backstory that apparently only you know, for instance, Marie having a lot of fantasies about sex and having babies. I did not come away from this story with that impression at all. Her only reminiscing about the sex seemed more about sibling rivalry than anything else.
I don't think I'll address the periods, the12 yr old pregnancy and all the risk factors because it's a soapbox I might not be able to get off of. After spending over 15 years as a registered nurse in Neonatal Intensive Care, and witnessing hundreds, maybe even thousands of births, my take on it is a little skewed.
Your audience of readers is obviously not looking for factual information nearly as much as fantasy anyway.
Thanks again,
Des
From: Frank McCoy
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 05:51:43 GMT
[email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote:
From: [email protected] (Frank McCoy)
<The bouncing is minimal; and would probably be better (or at least sexier) if she didn't have the bra. It adds little or nothing to her sexiness; flattening what she has, almost as much as adding.
Maybe you should word it more like this in the story. In fact, what you wrote in response makes it a lot more vivid. Besides where I come from (Midwest Ohio) "apple-sized bosoms" are not small - unless your apples are seconds.
Perhaps I word it wrong.
When I think of apple-sized boobs, I think of a single apple cut in
half and placed against a bare chest. Similarly with other fruits
like grapefruit.
Do others think of the whole fruit?
Perhaps I should say, "half-apple sized" then.
Ever see pants left unbuttoned at the top button? I've seen girls do this deliberately until, despite being skin-tight, they look like the next button will pop and the pants WILL be on the floor before the girl can stop them. I think girls (Oh yeah, and guys too!) often deliberately TRY to see just how close they can get without the clothes actually falling off. I suspect many hours spent prancing around the house, just TRYING to see how tight or loose works without actually losing them. Then, when perfected, they wear the outfits to the mall to see who's going to look.
First, you didn't say they were unbuttoned at the top, at least I don't think you did. It just says they are a little loose at the top. Second, I still can't believe that jeans that are so tight that you can make out the panty line would fall off of anyone, even if they were unbuttoned and unzipped all the way. (And especially over the hips of a girl who's been menstruating for quite awhile. Most body changes happen before menstruating begins) But again, what you just wrote would be a great addition to the story, making it Marie that dances around the house seeing how low she can get her pants to go. Then the jeans don't have to be described as both skin tight, and loose enough to fall down.
Marie's hips (unlike her little sister's) WERE starting to fill out rather nicely. Still, the idea of sexy clothing is to have it LOOK like it's just about to fall off, while being completely safe (and FEELING safe to the wearer).
So, remember it's usually a male watching. And with a MAN, (and his small hips) if the button at the top isn't, and there's no belt, to HIM the pants are about to fall down. A GIRL might feel perfectly safe in that situation, but want to give the IMPRESSION of being close to accidental nudity to watching men. And I've seen girls wear jeans exactly in the manner described; and assumed it was for that reason.
Perhaps I'm just not good at describing what I see?
I'm just trying to describe outfits I've seen. Perhaps it's not a good job of doing so.
OOPS. Repeating myself.
I think "outfits" is the problem. It sounds like you're trying to describe two different sexy looks. The tight jean is one look; the sort of baggy jean worn way down on the hips is another.
I'm talking about TIGHT, on a woman, but with the top unbuttoned and no belt. Only BEING tight would hold such clothing on.
A person old enough to marry and have babies, can to some extent be considered an adult. Throughout history, the age of 12 was often a prime time for a young woman to start both. It's only RECENTLY that there ever was considered or invented the idea of adolescence. You were either a child being raised by parents, or an adult capable of work, earning a living, and raising a family of your own. Such things commonly started at puberty. Marie is two years past the start of menarche.
You've taken the words: 12 yr old girl and used them gratuitously. There's nothing about this girl that makes her 12 except for the one small action at the beginning of the story. You've given her apple sized bosoms, full thick pubic hair, regular periods, able to make passionate sex after just one bout with dad two weeks ago. She knows more about the sex lives of every elementary student in her school than I do about my best friends, and heck you even
Nope. She imagines she knows about most of them. In fact, she knows amazingly little. She's just extrapolating from HER experience ... and thinking it applies to everybody.
But then ... don't we all?
Even Amanda, whose POV the story is told from, has some amazingly parochial ideas about sex, pregnancy, and man/woman relationships in general. And THAT is how I tell the story ... Not as I know reality to be (OK ... as I suppose reality to be), but as Amanda (or for a bit Marie) supposedly sees things.
justify calling her an adult because 12 some time in history was normal. So why on earth even make her 12? Apparently just reading the words:12 yr old is the turn on? From further up in the thread you and Jeff agreed on there being some differences in the 12 year old or they would all be the same. Well, IMO that's exactly what you've done, you've made the 12 yr old absolutely no different than a woman of 18 or 20 or 24 etc. And it appears you've made her 12 simply to be able to code it pedo. If you want to make her unique, then you need to add a lot more 12 year old actions, and thoughts, if not physical descriptions.
Why make her twelve?
So she would be well into her fertility, but otherwise as young as
possible ... with a younger sister just having reached menarche.
Amanda wants her kids to BOTH start together, as soon as the youngest reaches the first distinct signs of puberty. She fears that otherwise they'd "start without her", and she wants to control things, and head the girls in the way SHE wants them to go. If she waits until later, she figures they'll already have boyfriends, be fucking, and it will be too late. (In either case, she didn't plan on raising them in a sexually restrictive environment.) As it is, she worries (completely unnecessarily) about being too late with the older girl.
What little is outside.
Ever look at a picture of two people fucking? Damned rarely does all of a man's prick fit inside a woman. Viewed with a man lying down, and the woman on top, facing his feet, there's almost always an inch or so that is visible, as the view doesn't allow the compete penetration that "missionary style" does when the woman's legs are wrapped around the man.
Then you need to describe it as such, I can understand what picture you're painting now as you describe it, but in your story you give conflicting descriptions. Buried deep inside of her and sticking out for Amanda to see.
Hm. The visualization was clear to ME; perhaps I'd better go back and reread that part to see if it wasn't clear the position they were in. I THOUGHT the part, "suddenly mashing her body down on her father's body" made it clear the position the two of them were in. Perhaps not.
Yeah, I DO go WAY overboard on such descriptions ... and I'll admit I do have a pregnancy-fetish. Pregnant women bringing an almost teary-eyed admiration from me. I truly envy their ability to have a baby when THEY want to. (I know ... SOME women see it as a penalty, being the one who HAS to carry the child.) I suspect that if I had been a girl, then I probably would have been PG a few months after my first period ... and then repeatedly so every time I could afford another one thereafter.
Spoken just like a man who's never been pregnant!
<Sigh.> And not likely ever to.
Still, while raising a kid, it was ME who got up in the middle of
nights when the baby cried, me who did more than 60% of the diapers,
and me who kept watch when the kid got sick.
That's partly because I wanted the kid far more than she did; so I felt obligated to do "more than my share". It's also because I sleep lighter at night; and SHE wouldn't wake up until the baby was in full wailing mode, while I wake up at the slightest whimper. So ... if one of us is already awake, why disturb the one peacefully sleeping?
I would have gladly carried the baby and even gone through labor for her, if I could. Damn do I wish I could have done that instead of her. You may not believe it, but it's true.
Did you ever see a little kid with an "owie", and WISH like heck you could take the pain, so the kid wouldn't have it? Did you ever see somebody you love hurting and aching, and WISH you could take over that pain, so he/she wouldn't have to carry the burden?
I'd have loved being pregnant. I doubt indeed that I'd like giving birth; but (like most women do) I'd figure it well worth the trouble once I had the kid in my arms.
And I know I'm not the only man to feel this way.
Many of your explanations were given using backstory that apparently only you know
True. Some I try to imply.
for instance, Marie having a lot of fantasies about sex and having babies. I did not come away from this story with that impression at all. Her only reminiscing about the sex seemed more about sibling rivalry than anything else.
Hey! You GOT that!
For a bit, I wonder if everybody missed it.
Yes, there WAS a bit of sibling rivalry involved. Marie loved her
little sister ... but often felt put-upon by the "little twerp" too.
Sometimes there's a big difference between loving and liking. Marie would feel TERRIBLE if her little sister was hurt or something. However, often she felt that the little girl was competing for things even she didn't know about yet. Certainly for attention from their parents.
A lot of the tone of the story is intentionally made up of innuendos about things like that. Putting all of the above in the story would clutter it up horribly, I think.
I don't think I'll address the periods, the12 yr old pregnancy and all the risk factors because it's a soapbox I might not be able to get off of. After spending over 15 years as a registered nurse in Neonatal Intensive Care, and witnessing hundreds, maybe even thousands of births, my take on it is a little skewed.
Hmm. Then I'd be really interested in your take.
Your audience of readers is obviously not looking for factual information nearly as much as fantasy anyway.
True.
And not so much at, "Is it likely?" as at, "Is it reasonably
possible?" A heck of a big difference.
Some of my stories (not this one) stretch the limits of possibility almost to the breaking point.
Thanks again,
Des
And thank you.
Especially for being able to read between the lines of the story some
of the things I put between those lines to be read. Sometimes I fear
that many of those things DON'T make it across to any of the readers.
They're intended for those (like you, I guess) who read deeper than
most.
/ ' /
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(/ / ((/|/ / </ <
From: Desdmona
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: 24 Nov 2001 14:32:46 GMT
Perhaps I word it wrong.
When I think of apple-sized boobs, I think of a single apple cut in half and placed against a bare chest. Similarly with other fruits like grapefruit.
Do others think of the whole fruit?
Perhaps I should say, "half-apple sized" then.
I have always thought they meant the whole fruit. So. I had to ask my husband, and now he's sitting around trying to figure out just what half-sized fruit I'm blessed with because he always thought it meant the whole fruit as well.
See, the exercises in the Fish Tank have many benefits. <smile>
So, remember it's usually a male watching. And with a MAN, (and his small hips) if the button at the top isn't, and there's no belt, to HIM the pants are about to fall down. A GIRL might feel perfectly safe in that situation, but want to give the IMPRESSION of being close to accidental nudity to watching men. And I've seen girls wear jeans exactly in the manner described; and assumed it was for that reason.
Yes, this makes sense if the POV we were seeing it from was a man. But in fact, we're reading from Amanda's POV and she's a woman and probably knows that skin tight jeans won't fall off.
Perhaps I'm just not good at describing what I see?
In fact, you're very good at describing what you see, at least you have been in your explanations as opposed to the story itself.
Still, while raising a kid, it was ME who got up in the middle of nights when the baby cried, me who did more than 60% of the diapers, and me who kept watch when the kid got sick.
Uh, Frank? What you've described is being a father, and from the sound of it, a good one, but I was talking about actually being pregnant.
Now don't get me wrong, I don't doubt your sincerity about being willing to take the pain of pregnancy just so you could be a father. This is exactly what women who choose to be pregnant do. I myself have three kids, I hated the pregnancy, but it was worth it.
I was joking when I said, "Spoken like a man who's never been pregnant."
And thank you.
Your Welcome!
Des
PS. Anything you would like to hear my take on feel free to email me about. I don't want to use the FishTank forum to vent personal &/or professional biases.
From: Frank McCoy
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 22:04:50 GMT
[email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote:
Perhaps I word it wrong.
When I think of apple-sized boobs, I think of a single apple cut in half and placed against a bare chest. Similarly with other fruits like grapefruit.
Do others think of the whole fruit?
Perhaps I should say, "half-apple sized" then.
I have always thought they meant the whole fruit. So. I had to ask my husband, and now he's sitting around trying to figure out just what half-sized fruit I'm blessed with because he always thought it meant the whole fruit as well.
See, the exercises in the Fish Tank have many benefits. <smile>
Except now I'm more confused than ever. ;-} The size of half an apple pasted onto her chest is the size I mean. Smaller round fruit just don't express it right.
So, remember it's usually a male watching. And with a MAN, (and his small hips) if the button at the top isn't, and there's no belt, to HIM the pants are about to fall down. A GIRL might feel perfectly safe in that situation, but want to give the IMPRESSION of being close to accidental nudity to watching men. And I've seen girls wear jeans exactly in the manner described; and assumed it was for that reason.
Yes, this makes sense if the POV we were seeing it from was a man. But in fact, we're reading from Amanda's POV and she's a woman and probably knows that skin tight jeans won't fall off.
Good point. Shit. Now how to get the proper feeling across, from HER view, but implying a man's. Darn.
Well, I'll figure something out.
Perhaps I'm just not good at describing what I see?
In fact, you're very good at describing what you see, at least you have been in your explanations as opposed to the story itself.
Still, while raising a kid, it was ME who got up in the middle of nights when the baby cried, me who did more than 60% of the diapers, and me who kept watch when the kid got sick.
Uh, Frank? What you've described is being a father, and from the sound of it, a good one, but I was talking about actually being pregnant.
Now don't get me wrong, I don't doubt your sincerity about being willing to take the pain of pregnancy just so you could be a father. This is exactly what women who choose to be pregnant do. I myself have three kids, I hated the pregnancy, but it was worth it.
The feeling I get from most women who've had children. "Penis envy" is WAY overrated, from my viewpoint. Wishing the ability to have children ourselves is something few men mention ... but one that's very real to many.
You'd be surprised at the number of volunteers experimenters get at the very mention that someday they might fix things so a man could carry a baby. Or ... maybe not.
I was joking when I said, "Spoken like a man who's never been pregnant."
And thank you.
Your Welcome!
Des
PS. Anything you would like to hear my take on feel free to email me about. I don't want to use the FishTank forum to vent personal &/or professional biases.
Well, that mention of delivery-room experiences would be very interesting to me. Mostly not to comment on myself, but to add to the data I continuously compile on such things.
And, if you wanted to vent, I'd like to hear that too, and why. Sometimes even one-sided viewpoints are helpful in assessing the whole. Often you can learn from them, even if not completely agreeing.
So ... Well, you know my email addy, if you don't want to vent here.
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From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 11:55:50 -0600
On Sat, 24 Nov 2001 05:51:43 GMT, [email protected] (Frank McCoy) wrote:
[email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote:
From: [email protected] (Frank McCoy)
<The bouncing is minimal; and would probably be better (or at least sexier) if she didn't have the bra. It adds little or nothing to her sexiness; flattening what she has, almost as much as adding.
Maybe you should word it more like this in the story. In fact, what you wrote in response makes it a lot more vivid. Besides where I come from (Midwest Ohio) "apple-sized bosoms" are not small - unless your apples are seconds.
Perhaps I word it wrong.
When I think of apple-sized boobs, I think of a single apple cut in half and placed against a bare chest. Similarly with other fruits like grapefruit.
Do others think of the whole fruit?
Yes, definitely. I imagine putting the whole fruit into a bra and strapping it on, to fit the size. Especially for those of us who don't have breasts big enough to count, who'd use the fruit as a substitute :-)
Perhaps I should say, "half-apple sized" then.
If they aren't yet "globes," just mounds, definitely. Otherwise, the description seems to miss the point. If they are big enough to be any kind of round fruit, you expect them to need a bra and be a bit bouncy. Whereas the truly flat, firm mounds that some girls (and women) have don't need that at all. o the wearer).
So, remember it's usually a male watching. And with a MAN, (and his small hips) if the button at the top isn't, and there's no belt, to HIM the pants are about to fall down. A GIRL might feel perfectly safe in that situation, but want to give the IMPRESSION of being close to accidental nudity to watching men. And I've seen girls wear jeans exactly in the manner described; and assumed it was for that reason.
Perhaps I'm just not good at describing what I see?
Or you try to generalize the description, when it is actually several outfits. Spelling it out with one situation's vivid description might be better, showing it as an example of her style, than trying to describe her general outfits and tastes.
Opening the top button is both for comfort in tight jeans, and attraction. Boys do it too. I know, I did it. I found it rather exciting, especially when I wasn't wearing underwear. Unzipping enough to reveal a bit of pubic hair or underwear was also a bit of teasing, especially if you feel that showing that off isn't the same as getting naked or even flashing.
I'm just trying to describe outfits I've seen. Perhaps it's not a good job of doing so.
OOPS. Repeating myself.
I think "outfits" is the problem. It sounds like you're trying to describe two different sexy looks. The tight jean is one look; the sort of baggy jean worn way down on the hips is another.
I'm talking about TIGHT, on a woman, but with the top unbuttoned and no belt. Only BEING tight would hold such clothing on.
Tight on top, but baggy in fit, is a different type from tight on the skin. Either can, due to lack of belt or button, suggest that it might fall off. But the tight on top, but loose below, will more easily slip down.
The fit also does change what parts are emphasized or revealed in the outfit. Loose legs in shorts are also a suggestive thing - I've enjoyed a lot of bare genital flashes that way (or underwear, but bare skin is hotter) and that style of shorts are about as sexy, in a deceptive way, as short skirts can be.
You've taken the words: 12 yr old girl and used them gratuitously. There's nothing about this girl that makes her 12 except for the one small action at the beginning of the story. You've given her apple sized bosoms, full thick pubic hair, regular periods, able to make passionate sex after just one bout with dad two weeks ago. She knows more about the sex lives of every elementary student in her school than I do about my best friends, and heck you even
Nope. She imagines she knows about most of them. In fact, she knows amazingly little. She's just extrapolating from HER experience ... and thinking it applies to everybody.
But then ... don't we all?
The POV might need to be made more clear, maybe putting those thoughts explicitly as being "she thought ..." sort of things.
Even Amanda, whose POV the story is told from, has some amazingly parochial ideas about sex, pregnancy, and man/woman relationships in general. And THAT is how I tell the story ... Not as I know reality to be (OK ... as I suppose reality to be), but as Amanda (or for a bit Marie) supposedly sees things.
justify calling her an adult because 12 some time in history was normal. So why on earth even make her 12? Apparently just reading the words:12 yr old is the turn on? From further up in the thread you and Jeff agreed on there being some differences in the 12 year old or they would all be the same. Well, IMO that's exactly what you've done, you've made the 12 yr old absolutely no different than a woman of 18 or 20 or 24 etc. And it appears you've made her 12 simply to be able to code it pedo. If you want to make her unique, then you need to add a lot more 12 year old actions, and thoughts, if not physical descriptions.
Why make her twelve?
So she would be well into her fertility, but otherwise as young as possible ... with a younger sister just having reached menarche.
But a 13 yo might be in that state too. It is a matter of development.
However, of my 12 yo acquaintances and relatives, those who were sexually active tended to be well into it, some having periods at 10. There were some exceptions, but they were the minority. I don't say that a girl has to hit her periods before she starts wanting sex, but it sure seems to me that hitting puberty in the physical changes definitely kicks the sex drive in.
Same with boys. Except that until they can shoot sperm, it seems even harder for them to easily get into sex, even if they might like playing at it.
I'll admit, though, that you can find people at the end of the scale either way. Those who were ready for sex at nine, and got into it, and those whose bodies weren't giving them much sexual response even at 18. I've read stories about 18 yo virgins who just discovered masturbation, and just started an interest in sex, and don't doubt that they have a basis in reality. But I've known very few of them in RL.
Spoken just like a man who's never been pregnant!
<Sigh.> And not likely ever to.
Still, while raising a kid, it was ME who got up in the middle of nights when the baby cried, me who did more than 60% of the diapers, and me who kept watch when the kid got sick.
That is part of parenting. And who has the time to do so. I figure that is only fair, since she did most of the work of getting the baby to that point, you know?
That's partly because I wanted the kid far more than she did; so I felt obligated to do "more than my share". It's also because I sleep lighter at night; and SHE wouldn't wake up until the baby was in full wailing mode, while I wake up at the slightest whimper. So ... if one of us is already awake, why disturb the one peacefully sleeping?
I would have gladly carried the baby and even gone through labor for her, if I could. Damn do I wish I could have done that instead of her. You may not believe it, but it's true.
Did you ever see a little kid with an "owie", and WISH like heck you could take the pain, so the kid wouldn't have it? Did you ever see somebody you love hurting and aching, and WISH you could take over that pain, so he/she wouldn't have to carry the burden?
I'd have loved being pregnant. I doubt indeed that I'd like giving birth; but (like most women do) I'd figure it well worth the trouble once I had the kid in my arms.
I'm sure that if it were possible - and technology might allow it - a number of men wouldn't mind the trouble. After all, there are men who honestly feel sympathetic labor pains.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Frank McCoy
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 22:03:14 GMT
Jeff Zephyr <[email protected]> wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2001 05:51:43 GMT, [email protected] (Frank McCoy) wrote:
[email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote:
From: [email protected] (Frank McCoy)
<The bouncing is minimal; and would probably be better (or at least sexier) if she didn't have the bra. It adds little or nothing to her sexiness; flattening what she has, almost as much as adding.
Maybe you should word it more like this in the story. In fact, what you wrote in response makes it a lot more vivid. Besides where I come from (Midwest Ohio) "apple-sized bosoms" are not small - unless your apples are seconds.
Perhaps I word it wrong.
When I think of apple-sized boobs, I think of a single apple cut in half and placed against a bare chest. Similarly with other fruits like grapefruit.
Do others think of the whole fruit?
Yes, definitely. I imagine putting the whole fruit into a bra and strapping it on, to fit the size. Especially for those of us who don't have breasts big enough to count, who'd use the fruit as a substitute :-)
Perhaps I should say, "half-apple sized" then.
If they aren't yet "globes," just mounds, definitely. Otherwise, the description seems to miss the point. If they are big enough to be any kind of round fruit, you expect them to need a bra and be a bit bouncy. Whereas the truly flat, firm mounds that some girls (and women) have don't need that at all. o the wearer).
Hmm ... Since most women's breasts (that aren't way oversized) I've seen look more like half a fruit (grapefruit, pear, apple, melon) than a whole one ... Maybe something different than fruit is needed for a description. Like the commonest thing I see is a woman that looks like a grapefruit or cantaloupe cut in half and pasted on (the joke is with peanut-butter) her chest.
So ... THAT is what I think of when mentioning, "grapefruit sized breasts."
So, remember it's usually a male watching. And with a MAN, (and his small hips) if the button at the top isn't, and there's no belt, to HIM the pants are about to fall down. A GIRL might feel perfectly safe in that situation, but want to give the IMPRESSION of being close to accidental nudity to watching men. And I've seen girls wear jeans exactly in the manner described; and assumed it was for that reason.
Perhaps I'm just not good at describing what I see?
Or you try to generalize the description, when it is actually several outfits. Spelling it out with one situation's vivid description might be better, showing it as an example of her style, than trying to describe her general outfits and tastes.
Hmmm ... I'm not quite sure what to do in this case though, where I'm trying to do both with one description. I'll figure something out.
Opening the top button is both for comfort in tight jeans, and attraction. Boys do it too. I know, I did it. I found it rather exciting, especially when I wasn't wearing underwear. Unzipping enough to reveal a bit of pubic hair or underwear was also a bit of teasing, especially if you feel that showing that off isn't the same as getting naked or even flashing.
Um ... HERE she would do it to show a flash of underwear, not pubic hair. Pubic hair seems a little more gross and explicit than what she wanted.
I'm just trying to describe outfits I've seen. Perhaps it's not a good job of doing so.
OOPS. Repeating myself.
I think "outfits" is the problem. It sounds like you're trying to describe two different sexy looks. The tight jean is one look; the sort of baggy jean worn way down on the hips is another.
I'm talking about TIGHT, on a woman, but with the top unbuttoned and no belt. Only BEING tight would hold such clothing on.
Tight on top, but baggy in fit, is a different type from tight on the skin. Either can, due to lack of belt or button, suggest that it might fall off. But the tight on top, but loose below, will more easily slip down.
Which is the point. She didn't WANT it to slip down; just to hint that it might. Most girls DON'T really want to lose their pants in public; but having boys stare at them, hoping they might is a sexy idea.
The fit also does change what parts are emphasized or revealed in the outfit. Loose legs in shorts are also a suggestive thing - I've enjoyed a lot of bare genital flashes that way (or underwear, but bare skin is hotter) and that style of shorts are about as sexy, in a deceptive way, as short skirts can be.
I LOVED the old miniskirts. Too bad they're not as in style, while more suggestive stuff is. Often the cutoffs show more than miniskirts ever did, without (IMO) being nearly as sexy.
You've taken the words: 12 yr old girl and used them gratuitously. There's nothing about this girl that makes her 12 except for the one small action at the beginning of the story. You've given her apple sized bosoms, full thick pubic hair, regular periods, able to make passionate sex after just one bout with dad two weeks ago. She knows more about the sex lives of every elementary student in her school than I do about my best friends, and heck you even
Nope. She imagines she knows about most of them. In fact, she knows amazingly little. She's just extrapolating from HER experience ... and thinking it applies to everybody.
But then ... don't we all?
The POV might need to be made more clear, maybe putting those thoughts explicitly as being "she thought ..." sort of things.
Well ... I really didn't WANT to spell it out there. Not sure I can explain why.
Even Amanda, whose POV the story is told from, has some amazingly parochial ideas about sex, pregnancy, and man/woman relationships in general. And THAT is how I tell the story ... Not as I know reality to be (OK ... as I suppose reality to be), but as Amanda (or for a bit Marie) supposedly sees things.
justify calling her an adult because 12 some time in history was normal. So why on earth even make her 12? Apparently just reading the words:12 yr old is the turn on? From further up in the thread you and Jeff agreed on there being some differences in the 12 year old or they would all be the same. Well, IMO that's exactly what you've done, you've made the 12 yr old absolutely no different than a woman of 18 or 20 or 24 etc. And it appears you've made her 12 simply to be able to code it pedo. If you want to make her unique, then you need to add a lot more 12 year old actions, and thoughts, if not physical descriptions.
Why make her twelve?
So she would be well into her fertility, but otherwise as young as possible ... with a younger sister just having reached menarche.
But a 13 yo might be in that state too. It is a matter of development.
True. But I wanted her a "reasonable" but close difference in age from her younger sister. Two years seemed nice spacing (for parents) without waiting a long time between children.
However, of my 12 yo acquaintances and relatives, those who were sexually active tended to be well into it, some having periods at 10. There were some exceptions, but they were the minority. I don't say that a girl has to hit her periods before she starts wanting sex, but it sure seems to me that hitting puberty in the physical changes definitely kicks the sex drive in.
Same with boys. Except that until they can shoot sperm, it seems even harder for them to easily get into sex, even if they might like playing at it.
I liked playing at it long before I ever ejaculated. Many years before, in fact. Sometimes though (considering my Catholic upbringing) I felt SO guilty about feeling good that way.
I'll admit, though, that you can find people at the end of the scale either way. Those who were ready for sex at nine, and got into it, and those whose bodies weren't giving them much sexual response even at 18. I've read stories about 18 yo virgins who just discovered masturbation, and just started an interest in sex, and don't doubt that they have a basis in reality. But I've known very few of them in RL.
I met a girl who never had an orgasm until she was 26. OTOH, I've also met girls who were masturbating at 8 years and younger.
Spoken just like a man who's never been pregnant!
<Sigh.> And not likely ever to.
Still, while raising a kid, it was ME who got up in the middle of nights when the baby cried, me who did more than 60% of the diapers, and me who kept watch when the kid got sick.
That is part of parenting. And who has the time to do so. I figure that is only fair, since she did most of the work of getting the baby to that point, you know?
Exactly what I felt.
I kind of owed it to her.
That's partly because I wanted the kid far more than she did; so I felt obligated to do "more than my share". It's also because I sleep lighter at night; and SHE wouldn't wake up until the baby was in full wailing mode, while I wake up at the slightest whimper. So ... if one of us is already awake, why disturb the one peacefully sleeping?
I would have gladly carried the baby and even gone through labor for her, if I could. Damn do I wish I could have done that instead of her. You may not believe it, but it's true.
Did you ever see a little kid with an "owie", and WISH like heck you could take the pain, so the kid wouldn't have it? Did you ever see somebody you love hurting and aching, and WISH you could take over that pain, so he/she wouldn't have to carry the burden?
I'd have loved being pregnant. I doubt indeed that I'd like giving birth; but (like most women do) I'd figure it well worth the trouble once I had the kid in my arms.
I'm sure that if it were possible - and technology might allow it - a number of men wouldn't mind the trouble. After all, there are men who honestly feel sympathetic labor pains.
I somewhat felt guilty that I didn't. ;-} Some men feel more than sympathetic labor pains; going through a whole sympathetic pregnancy as well. And I always thought I was empathetic. That's carrying it to an extreme, I think. But ... one I can sympathize with too.
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From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 11:16:19 -0600
On 24 Nov 2001 04:46:34 GMT, [email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote:
From: [email protected] (Frank McCoy)
<The bouncing is minimal; and would probably be better (or at least sexier) if she didn't have the bra. It adds little or nothing to her sexiness; flattening what she has, almost as much as adding.
Maybe you should word it more like this in the story. In fact, what you wrote in response makes it a lot more vivid. Besides where I come from (Midwest Ohio) "apple-sized bosoms" are not small - unless your apples are seconds.
It does depend on apple sizes, but definitely, they can seem large. Also, as for fruit sizes, I tend to judge that description based on the whole fruit filling the bra cup, not just part of it.
A person old enough to marry and have babies, can to some extent be considered an adult. Throughout history, the age of 12 was often a prime time for a young woman to start both. It's only RECENTLY that there ever was considered or invented the idea of adolescence. You were either a child being raised by parents, or an adult capable of work, earning a living, and raising a family of your own. Such things commonly started at puberty. Marie is two years past the start of menarche.
You've taken the words: 12 yr old girl and used them gratuitously. There's nothing about this girl that makes her 12 except for the one small action at the beginning of the story. You've given her apple sized bosoms, full thick pubic hair, regular periods, able to make passionate sex after just one bout with dad two weeks ago. She knows more about the sex lives of every elementary student in her school than I do about my best friends, and heck you even justify calling her an adult because 12 some time in history was normal. So why on earth even make her 12? Apparently just reading the words:12 yr old is the turn on? From further up in the thread you and Jeff agreed on there being some differences in the 12 year old or they would all be the same. Well, IMO that's exactly what you've done, you've made the 12 yr old absolutely no different than a woman of 18 or 20 or 24 etc. And it appears you've made her 12 simply to be able to code it pedo. If you want to make her unique, then you need to add a lot more 12 year old actions, and thoughts, if not physical descriptions.
For some people, 12 yo is seriously a turn on. It is below the 13 yo "teenager" threshold, and therefore regardless of her development and actions, it is more exciting.
I don't doubt that some 12 yo's have that kind of development and sexual interest, and perhaps knowledge of sexual behavior of friends. I do think that the odds are much higher of that sexual knowledge stuff if the 12 yo is actually doing it with her friends, rather than just her family. I mean, one way you find out everyone else's habits is by doing it with them and having some nice pillow talk, sharing experiences.
To me, though, I look more at the age thing as fitting the character, and what I want to show in the situation. I'm not bothered by Frank's 12 yo characterization because the chronological age isn't the issue to me. If the girl feels old enough, and her development is sufficient, then when she thinks she is ready for sex, she is. The tale seems set that way, though it is rough in some areas.
But it is also a fantasy tale, and missing reality a bit is OK in those.
I don't think I'll address the periods, the12 yr old pregnancy and all the risk factors because it's a soapbox I might not be able to get off of. After spending over 15 years as a registered nurse in Neonatal Intensive Care, and witnessing hundreds, maybe even thousands of births, my take on it is a little skewed.
Just as well. When I was 12, the thought of pregnancy at that age was a matter of horror, not desire. Something that you will do someday, when you grow up, but if it should happen NOW, what will we ever do?
Not enough to stop us from having sex, but quite enough to make birth control, and the lack of easy resources to get it, a major topic in relationships. And a good reason why a number of them involved primarily or exclusively oral and manual sex (and also a reason why same-sex relationships were so much less stressful, though part of that was the lack of peer pressure about them).
Your audience of readers is obviously not looking for factual information nearly as much as fantasy anyway.
A bit of fact amid the fantasy is nice, though. If we presume a family and children who seem to be able to handle that situation OK, it is nice when the details work out to fit into the possibilities of reality.
OTOH, what are the odds that 12 yo sex story readers are fans of these tales? I'm not sure, though. I suspect that other than the pregnancy parts, I would have been.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Frank McCoy
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 22:24:46 GMT
Jeff Zephyr <[email protected]> wrote:
On 24 Nov 2001 04:46:34 GMT, [email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote:
[snip]
For some people, 12 yo is seriously a turn on. It is below the 13 yo "teenager" threshold, and therefore regardless of her development and actions, it is more exciting.
Definitely a point, both in this story, and others I've written.
I don't doubt that some 12 yo's have that kind of development and sexual interest, and perhaps knowledge of sexual behavior of friends. I do think that the odds are much higher of that sexual knowledge stuff if the 12 yo is actually doing it with her friends, rather than just her family. I mean, one way you find out everyone else's habits is by doing it with them and having some nice pillow talk, sharing experiences.
Pillow-talk, sleepovers, sniggering at boys, catty talk about other girls, snide remarks about, "Haven't you done it YET?" and other stuff can make for quite a wide experience-range, if not actual good knowledge. "Out behind the barn," isn't really the best place to pick up a good sex-education, even if that's where many of us actually DO learn about it.
And (of course, and part of the point of the story) what we think we know about sex, picked up in such a manner, can be far from what really goes on.
To me, though, I look more at the age thing as fitting the character, and what I want to show in the situation. I'm not bothered by Frank's 12 yo characterization because the chronological age isn't the issue to me. If the girl feels old enough, and her development is sufficient, then when she thinks she is ready for sex, she is. The tale seems set that way, though it is rough in some areas.
Which is what I'd like to fix, of course.
But it is also a fantasy tale, and missing reality a bit is OK in those.
I don't think I'll address the periods, the12 yr old pregnancy and all the risk factors because it's a soapbox I might not be able to get off of. After spending over 15 years as a registered nurse in Neonatal Intensive Care, and witnessing hundreds, maybe even thousands of births, my take on it is a little skewed.
Just as well. When I was 12, the thought of pregnancy at that age was a matter of horror, not desire. Something that you will do someday, when you grow up, but if it should happen NOW, what will we ever do?
Well (the side-issue of many of my stories) if pregnancy is a matter of horror, then it takes a lot of the fun out of it. But I'll well admit it is that way for most girls. Of course, one of the BIGGEST reasons kids are scared-to-deaht of getting PG, isn't the pregnancy, having a kid, or even birth itself. It's the reaction parents will have ... AND peers too!
When a kid (and particularly an adolescent) what people THINK of you
is often far more important than what actually happens to you. And
getting pregnant is:
A. Embarrassing.
B. Obvious.
C. Something people TALK about.
D. Evidence you've, "Been doing the nasty."
E. Something that parents and teachers talk about like it's the end
of the world.
F. Awkward.
G. An interruption in schooling. (For some reason teachers don't
like an eight-month-pregnant girl showing up in class.)
H. More I can't remember right now.
However, if pregnancy WASN'T a personal disaster, and only just a baby on-the-way, then perhaps it wouldn't be a horror, but something sought. (And perhaps that's WHY our society makes it a horror.) If parents were SUPPORTING of a girl getting pregnant, instead of treating it like she had leprosy, then might it not seem something desirable ... to SOME girls anyway?
Thus the basis for many of my stories.
Of course, in this story, the woman goes overboard; not only being
supporting, but ONLY showing the positive aspects of having a baby ...
and NONE of the problems. She's not exactly pushing the girl or
forcing her to have a baby ... but seducing her into it sounds about
right. Not exactly fair.
But then, Amanda isn't TRYING to be fair. She wants more children around the house; and figures since SHE hasn't been getting any herself, that she's figured a nice way of having more. And she's talking herself into believing this, almost as much as convincing the kids it's a nice idea.
Not enough to stop us from having sex, but quite enough to make birth control, and the lack of easy resources to get it, a major topic in relationships. And a good reason why a number of them involved primarily or exclusively oral and manual sex (and also a reason why same-sex relationships were so much less stressful, though part of that was the lack of peer pressure about them).
Your audience of readers is obviously not looking for factual information nearly as much as fantasy anyway.
A bit of fact amid the fantasy is nice, though. If we presume a family and children who seem to be able to handle that situation OK, it is nice when the details work out to fit into the possibilities of reality.
If we figured that most families would SUPPORT their kids in having children themselves ... We'd probably have a serious baby-boom!
OTOH, what are the odds that 12 yo sex story readers are fans of these tales? I'm not sure, though. I suspect that other than the pregnancy parts, I would have been.
Funny ... Me too.
But then, I probably would have ignored the pregnancy part, when
that age. ;-{
Not exactly smart.
/ ' /
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(/ / ((/|/ / </ <
From: Frank McCoy
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 05:01:10 GMT
"Poison Ivan" <[email protected]> wrote:
"Frank McCoy" wrote ...
"Poison Ivan" <[email protected]> wrote:
For a sex story, there is almost no sex. There is very little action, even. Mostly we hear the mother repeatedly summarizing the "sex education" night from a few weeks back, using minor variations of the same phrases over and over again.
Huh?
Here I thought the sex was rather more of the story than necessary.
I suppose I should clarify a little bit here. There is plenty of sex in this story, but none of the sex is described in detail as it's happening. It's simply referred to in a shadowy way. I have no idea what that sex was like because the mother doesn't describe it, except in a single sentence summary ("He deposited his potent seed in her trembling belly.")
Let's put it another way. Your sex scene is only one sentence long, which is far too short. True, you repeat the same sentence 38 times (by Des's count), but repeating an inadequately described sex scene doesn't make it any more vivid.
Ah!
I see. The problem is:
THAT sex scene (and the other implied one) was rather short ... and
just sex, not a seduction. YOU would like a proper seduction, with
feelings-up, touching, cuddling, loving, foreplay, approach,
insertion, coition, ejaculation, cool-down, afterplay, and more
cuddling ... all described in detail.
Only the thing was just that: A SEX scene, with Daddy showing how it's done, or (in the one shown) with Mom coming in in the middle, ONLY seeing that part, and not observing what went after. All she saw was a few short strokes when he came in her. Not much to base a sex-scene on, when all she had to work on was mainly her own imagination.
I would like to see your sex placed in an actual scene, with an actual beginning, middle and end. It needs to be several paragaphs long, not just one sentence long. And there needs to be enough detail for me to envision the action taking place.
I'm afraid the detail there was rather short. About 30 seconds worth, if that. Mom only saw Marie sitting on her dad for about 3 strokes, then he was done. After that, she (Amanda) was out again. Most of the rest would all have been in her mind.
Even Marie just walked into the room, already naked, saw her father there with a hard-on, climbed on top, and worked until he came. Not more than three minutes total. While she enjoyed it OK, it wasn't exactly the type of sex that leaves girls dreamy-eyed for weeks. She had more fun the first time, when it was more like a clinical instruction from a doctor on how to take pills than making love.
I suppose it's not giving TOO much outside information, that the girl didn't really have a climax while having sex until several days later, when Dad did do a proper seduction. But that wasn't part of this story.
Seductions are a whole different genre than just sex to get relief or make babies. In this case, Marie was just supposed to "help Daddy get off, so he could get some sleep" not wear him out sexually.
Poison Ivan
^ remembers Katie McN giving a nice mini-lecture on this subject
/ ' /
,-/-, . __ /
(/ / ((/|/ / </ <
From: Frank McCoy
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 05:03:04 GMT
"Conjugate" <[email protected]> wrote:
Frank McCoy <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
Long list snipped ...
Thanks much!
You're welcome. This was the first Fish Tank story I've contributed directly to (though I've popped off in several threads that arose from others). Glad to know I was able to help.
Conjugate
Well, thanks for letting me inaugurate you then. ;-} Don't be shy: Others would appreciate similar help.
/ ' /
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(/ / ((/|/ / </ <
From: Uther Pendragon
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 05:34:20 GMT
[email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote:
1) 2 positive comments
1 Marie is presented quite persuasively.
2 The people are embedded quite persuasively, even humorously, in real-life.
2) 2 things to improve
1 This isn't a story. It is an essay. We get mostly Amanda's reasoning.
2 The language clunks too often:
"That Marie so far hadn't gone down the road of some of her girlfriends had, with tiny tube tops, pierced navels, and shorts so short they almost were micro-miniskirts, she considered a blessing."
However short shorts become, they don't turn into skirts.
On other issues:
Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story By Frank McCoy (Mgg, incest, cons, pedo, preg, teach)
My spell checker wants a T in daughter.
Amanda looked down at the young woman reading a book. While not dressed as blatantly sexual as many girls her age, Marie wasn't out of style either.
On the sentence above, which has had a good deal of comment,
1 Frank has made it clear that he doesn't mean that the girl was not as provocative as some of her classmates, but was still stylish. What he means is that Marie is somewhere around the 90th centile in provocative dress.
2 If you want to shorten a sentence like this, you should use the comparative form, instead of expressing a negative.
Try: "While dressed less sexily than a few of her classmates, Marie still clearly aimed for the male eye.
This is the last paragraph I downloaded. Wasn't there a size limit on the Fishtank once? What was it?
7
What better way to show your appreciation of the love you got from your parents, than by giving the same love to your brothers or sisters? 'Not many girls these days would help their mothers out like that,' she thought. Such wonderful babies, to have their own father's babies before they grew too old and left home for college or careers of their own. Not many little girls would do that for their mother.
Uther Pendragon FAQs http://www.nyx.net/~anon584c [email protected] fiqshn http://www.asstr.org/~Uther_Pendragon
From: Frank McCoy
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 06:01:46 GMT
Uther Pendragon <[email protected]> wrote:
[email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote: 1) 2 positive comments
1 Marie is presented quite persuasively.
2 The people are embedded quite persuasively, even humorously, in real-life.
2) 2 things to improve
1 This isn't a story. It is an essay. We get mostly Amanda's reasoning.
Um ... that's something to improve?
Sorry, but you lost me there. That was the whole IDEA.
2 The language clunks too often:
"That Marie so far hadn't gone down the road of some of her girlfriends had, with tiny tube tops, pierced navels, and shorts so short they almost were micro-miniskirts, she considered a blessing."
However short shorts become, they don't turn into skirts.
Oh no?
When the tiny fragment that holds the middle together, front-to-back
disappears, then they do. IOW, when they become shorter than the
panties underneath.
On other issues:
Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story By Frank McCoy (Mgg, incest, cons, pedo, preg, teach)
My spell checker wants a T in daughter.
ARRRGH!
HTF did MY checkered mist that won?
Amanda looked down at the young woman reading a book. While not dressed as blatantly sexual as many girls her age, Marie wasn't out of style either.
On the sentence above, which has had a good deal of comment,
1 Frank has made it clear that he doesn't mean that the girl was not as provocative as some of her classmates, but was still stylish. What he means is that Marie is somewhere around the 90th centile in provocative dress.
2 If you want to shorten a sentence like this, you should use the comparative form, instead of expressing a negative.
Try: "While dressed less sexily than a few of her classmates, Marie still clearly aimed for the male eye.
OK. But I want her VERY sexy looking, not just a little. Just short of the "dressed to fuck" look of some of her peers.
Hm ... perhaps THAT expresses it better?
- = -
This is the last paragraph I downloaded. Wasn't there a size limit on the Fishtank once? What was it?
7
What better way to show your appreciation of the love you got from your parents, than by giving the same love to your brothers or sisters? 'Not many girls these days would help their mothers out like that,' she thought. Such wonderful babies, to have their own father's babies before they grew too old and left home for college or careers of their own. Not many little girls would do that for their mother.
That was the ending, there.
WAS there a size-limit?
Then probably I went over. ;-{
/ ' /
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(/ / ((/|/ / </ <
From: Desdmona
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: 24 Nov 2001 14:13:38 GMT
From: Uther Pendragon [email protected]
This is the last paragraph I downloaded. Wasn't there a size limit on the Fishtank once? What was it?
Yes, according to our initial guidelines the submissions should not exceed 5000 words. Frank's submission was four thousand something. ( I can't remember the exact word count)
Desdmona
From: Frank McCoy
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 22:28:09 GMT
[email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote:
From: Uther Pendragon [email protected]
This is the last paragraph I downloaded. Wasn't there a size limit on the Fishtank once? What was it?
Yes, according to our initial guidelines the submissions should not exceed 5000 words. Frank's submission was four thousand something. ( I can't remember the exact word count)
Desdmona
Whoof!
Just squeaked in under the wire.
Sorry I missed that part of the guidelines.
If I'd noticed, I probably would have sent in a shorter story ... which wouldn't have got me the real feedback I was looking for.
THIS story, being the size and type it was, AND having been gone-over by me several times, was JUST the type to show the sort of problems I wouldn't notice myself.
/ ' /
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(/ / ((/|/ / </ <
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 10:39:48 -0600
On Fri, 23 Nov 2001 19:18:42 GMT, [email protected] (Frank McCoy) wrote:
Jeff Zephyr <[email protected]> wrote:
On 22 Nov 2001 07:05:13 GMT, [email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote:
Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story By Frank McCoy (Mgg, incest, cons, pedo, preg, teach)
Frank~
"That it had been about a week before Marie's period ..."
[periods in girl's this age and younger are rarely regular, in fact many will have a first period and not have another for months. They will however continue to cycle hormonally, and can get pregnant at any time during the cycle.]
This is a definite disadvantage of early sex. The often untrustworthy rhythm method is very difficult to use, if it is usable at all.
But there are some exceptions. A girl whose period started when she was 10 might well be pretty regular by 12.
OTOH, even at 13 (sigh) it can be irregular enough that missing a month or two can keep you in terrifying suspense :-) That presumes that you are hoping it will come along, and the irregularity gives you a reason to believe that this is just another one of those times.
Anyway, it is possible that Marie is regular in periods.
From people I've talked to, research on the subject, and some apocryphal data as well, some girls start out almost as regular as a clock, others take several months to settle down into regularity, and a FEW women always have irregular periods.
My personal research - it is something that you kind of are aware of when dating/hanging around with a girl even if she doesn't bring it up in full details, but some did tell all - fits that pretty much. Some were pretty regular, enough that they could plan around it, others were close - not skipping often, but late a little - and then there were those who were very irregular.
When you are sincerely trying not to get pregnant, this can make sex a bit scary. Then, it also takes some time for boys to get used to the way girls work - and for girls to be a bit comfortable about being with boys during their period. Not always having sex, but just being comfortable with the situation.
"furry nest"
[furry seems a bit thick for a 12 yr old's pubic hair ... it's usually still very sparse]
Not always, having known a fair number of 12 yo's close enough to make comparisons. While not likely to be as much as a 16 yo's or older, it definitely can cover the entire area, and conceal well. Just as there are 12 yo's with C cup breasts (and maybe D cup, some were pretty big, but C for absolute certainty), while others don't even need a training bra.
Someplace I've seen a picture of two sister, one twelve years old, and the other ten. (Nudists, I think.) Yes, with the same parents. While not really "child porn" (no emphasis on sexual matters, or even on pubic areas), what struck me was that the younger girl had full pubic hair, developing hips, and apple-sized tits, while the older girl, being probably twenty pounds heavier, looked completely prepubescent, with only the vagina and face telling the onlooker it was a girl instead of a boy. That was over 6 years ago; but the image struck me forcefully, so I can't forget it.
If my sisters were closer in age, they could have posed for that picture :-) The younger was more developed at 12 than the older at 16. In fact, if they were seriously jealous about such things, the fact that the younger by 13 or so showed more figure than the older before she had kids might have been really annoyed that her 'baby sister' looked hotter than she did.
The gotcha in this situation is that the visible signs have no close connection to the development of sexual desire and responses. A 10 yo with the body which an older girl might envy (assuming she wants to look girlish) may have no more desire for sex than other girls her age. Maybe even less!
Aren't there other signs of sexual interest besides just sex? What about lots of hugs and kisses? Or even, just getting into nice wet kisses at an early age?
Someday I might write a story about that. The image is hard to forget.
I've also heard clinical cases of girls as young as six having a "full bush" of hair. Others, as young or younger, with developed breasts, and sometimes even menses. However, rarely did all come together in somebody under age nine. (I actually don't remember ever hearing of a case where ALL those signs came together below nine years of age; though there are several records of people that young or younger having babies.)
I do track all such information about things like that; it being a major interest of mine for my stories.
Naturally.
I have a similar interest in youthful tales, but my naturally tendency for fiction story-writing is to try to push the age up to around 13 or 14. This despite the fact that my own experiences were younger, and sometimes I let that side come out in other stories.
Partly, this is because that while some girls and boys at 11/12 are very ready for sex, or at least think they are, most don't seem to be. That I find it odd that some didn't discover masturbation until 14-17 or so doesn't mean that it is something strange to wait that long.
The main reason is that it puts it into the teenage range, and thus less likely to squick those who don't like pedo stories, and can't help think of 12 yo's - even though they are almost 13 - as too young to be having sex.
A RL bit from my own experiences, though: My 12 yo nephew was caught french-kissing his cousins. Maybe males get into that more, or that is just how it is in our family, I don't know. We had a talk about the whole issue, but though we've ruled out passionate cousin/cousin kissing (and siblings) - which makes me feel a bit hypocritical, but he isn't my kid and I won't overrule parental advice - it seems obvious to me that he's been practicing this activity with others, and probably for some time.
Now, maybe that isn't quite sex. But it is certainly something right on the path. My own life certainly involved such at that age, and it seemed natural to me. OTOH, not all of my peers seemed into it. I remember the whole "that's gross" reaction when we were doing "Romeo and Juliet" in 6th grade, which did end up with some practice kissing sessions between some of us who were interested in it, and worried that we might end up having to do it on stage.
The school disappointed us, though. Not only did none of us who "practiced" the role get the parts, but they didn't even let the kids actually kiss on stage. Totally unfair :-)
The variability in development is one of the things that I notice about youthful sex stories. So if all of the girls are of one sort, same level of development, same pattern of periods, and all that, it feels odd.
Exactly.
I've met girls who claimed to start menses as young as nine ... while others didn't start until well into their teens.
Hair, breasts, and other external signs sometimes being closely related, and others not getting "boobs" until almost in their twenties. (A sad disappointment to some girls.)
Oh, it is, but mostly because there are too many boys who are obessed with them, and there is a ton of social pressure to have them. Discovering that there are some boys who think otherwise might help, or not, depending on how the situation works out.
I think it is a cruel thing to tease about, especially since teasing boys about their lack of development is mostly something other boys - who might see the details - do. It isn't nearly so obvious when dressed that a boy's organ is small, and even then, you can't see how big it is hard unless they do so in public.
I hope the things I've said will help with the writing of this story. I do not read this genre so it's difficult to know if this story is better or worse than most. I've tried very hard to keep my personal prejudices about this type of story from clouding my opinions. I can only hope I've succeeded.
I think it was very brave of you Frank to post your story to the FishTank knowing it would be controversial. Thank you!
It is. Not that some others haven't been a bit controversial, and maybe that is a good thing. Questioning our assumptions about our chosen genre can be a good thing.
Actually, not brave. Mostly panting and hopeful to get real comments. Flames, while disappointing, can be ignored. Comments pointing out REAL problems can be priceless.
In that line, to both of you:
!!!!THANK YOU!!!!!
No problem, you're welcome.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Frank McCoy
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 19:33:40 GMT
Jeff Zephyr <[email protected]> wrote:
On Fri, 23 Nov 2001 19:18:42 GMT, [email protected] (Frank McCoy) wrote:
Jeff Zephyr <[email protected]> wrote:
On 22 Nov 2001 07:05:13 GMT, [email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote:
Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story By Frank McCoy (Mgg, incest, cons, pedo, preg, teach)
Frank~
"That it had been about a week before Marie's period ..."
[periods in girl's this age and younger are rarely regular, in fact many will have a first period and not have another for months. They will however continue to cycle hormonally, and can get pregnant at any time during the cycle.]
This is a definite disadvantage of early sex. The often untrustworthy rhythm method is very difficult to use, if it is usable at all.
But there are some exceptions. A girl whose period started when she was 10 might well be pretty regular by 12.
OTOH, even at 13 (sigh) it can be irregular enough that missing a month or two can keep you in terrifying suspense :-) That presumes that you are hoping it will come along, and the irregularity gives you a reason to believe that this is just another one of those times.
Anyway, it is possible that Marie is regular in periods.
From people I've talked to, research on the subject, and some apocryphal data as well, some girls start out almost as regular as a clock, others take several months to settle down into regularity, and a FEW women always have irregular periods.
My personal research - it is something that you kind of are aware of when dating/hanging around with a girl even if she doesn't bring it up in full details, but some did tell all - fits that pretty much. Some were pretty regular, enough that they could plan around it, others were close - not skipping often, but late a little - and then there were those who were very irregular.
When you are sincerely trying not to get pregnant, this can make sex a bit scary. Then, it also takes some time for boys to get used to the way girls work - and for girls to be a bit comfortable about being with boys during their period. Not always having sex, but just being comfortable with the situation.
"furry nest"
[furry seems a bit thick for a 12 yr old's pubic hair ... it's usually still very sparse]
Not always, having known a fair number of 12 yo's close enough to make comparisons. While not likely to be as much as a 16 yo's or older, it definitely can cover the entire area, and conceal well. Just as there are 12 yo's with C cup breasts (and maybe D cup, some were pretty big, but C for absolute certainty), while others don't even need a training bra.
Someplace I've seen a picture of two sister, one twelve years old, and the other ten. (Nudists, I think.) Yes, with the same parents. While not really "child porn" (no emphasis on sexual matters, or even on pubic areas), what struck me was that the younger girl had full pubic hair, developing hips, and apple-sized tits, while the older girl, being probably twenty pounds heavier, looked completely prepubescent, with only the vagina and face telling the onlooker it was a girl instead of a boy. That was over 6 years ago; but the image struck me forcefully, so I can't forget it.
If my sisters were closer in age, they could have posed for that picture :-) The younger was more developed at 12 than the older at 16. In fact, if they were seriously jealous about such things, the fact that the younger by 13 or so showed more figure than the older before she had kids might have been really annoyed that her 'baby sister' looked hotter than she did.
The gotcha in this situation is that the visible signs have no close connection to the development of sexual desire and responses. A 10 yo with the body which an older girl might envy (assuming she wants to look girlish) may have no more desire for sex than other girls her age. Maybe even less!
Aren't there other signs of sexual interest besides just sex? What about lots of hugs and kisses? Or even, just getting into nice wet kisses at an early age?
Hmmm?
The way I remember it with me, is the younger kids gave the big wet
sloppy kisses, while the older girls were much more reserved.
Of course, that was with me, so maybe ... Never mind.
I do remember the first time I danced with a girl ... and then noticed she was a woman not a girl by the way she danced.
I'd find it hard to correlate activities like that with actual developing sexuality; because I've seen 8-year-olds flaunting their bodies in a "come fuck me manner" while completely developed women in their middle teens didn't seem to have a handle on the fact they were pretty much adults (in body, anyway).
Someday I might write a story about that. The image is hard to forget.
I've also heard clinical cases of girls as young as six having a "full bush" of hair. Others, as young or younger, with developed breasts, and sometimes even menses. However, rarely did all come together in somebody under age nine. (I actually don't remember ever hearing of a case where ALL those signs came together below nine years of age; though there are several records of people that young or younger having babies.)
I do track all such information about things like that; it being a major interest of mine for my stories.
Naturally.
I have a similar interest in youthful tales, but my naturally tendency for fiction story-writing is to try to push the age up to around 13 or 14. This despite the fact that my own experiences were younger, and sometimes I let that side come out in other stories.
Well, both can make for a realistic story. Even those kids who get REALLY interested in sex at 9, 10, or 11, often don't actually do anything until years later. And (usually) things don't make that interesting a sex-story, until you actually start doing something with other than your own hands.
Partly, this is because that while some girls and boys at 11/12 are very ready for sex, or at least think they are, most don't seem to be. That I find it odd that some didn't discover masturbation until 14-17 or so doesn't mean that it is something strange to wait that long.
The main reason is that it puts it into the teenage range, and thus less likely to squick those who don't like pedo stories, and can't help think of 12 yo's - even though they are almost 13 - as too young to be having sex.
Ah yes ... Writing to the audience.
Sometimes that bugs me, when a sex story gets "toned down" to a
certain audience. I've seen stories that were originally posted with
the participants at one age ... and then posted later with different
ones (usually older, but once-in-a-while going the other way).
Or, taking out explicit sex scenes, or even HINTS at same, because "children might read the story."
Ah well.
Sometimes I write to my audience too; so I shouldn't complain too much about others.
A RL bit from my own experiences, though: My 12 yo nephew was caught french-kissing his cousins. Maybe males get into that more, or that is just how it is in our family, I don't know. We had a talk about the whole issue, but though we've ruled out passionate cousin/cousin kissing (and siblings) - which makes me feel a bit hypocritical, but he isn't my kid and I won't overrule parental advice - it seems obvious to me that he's been practicing this activity with others, and probably for some time.
So?
I gather he got into trouble; but you weren't too specific.
Or did everybody ignore it?
Now, maybe that isn't quite sex. But it is certainly something right on the path. My own life certainly involved such at that age, and it seemed natural to me. OTOH, not all of my peers seemed into it. I remember the whole "that's gross" reaction when we were doing "Romeo and Juliet" in 6th grade, which did end up with some practice kissing sessions between some of us who were interested in it, and worried that we might end up having to do it on stage.
Heh. Yeah, I can remember WANTING to kiss girls at the same age most of my peers were making, "Ugh, gross!" comments. I never did, even when younger, see anything gross about kissing girls ... even when it wasn't the pleasure it became later. Kissing and hugging always WERE nice things to me ... Something you did with people you like.
The school disappointed us, though. Not only did none of us who "practiced" the role get the parts, but they didn't even let the kids actually kiss on stage. Totally unfair :-)
Aw ... My heart bleeds. ;-}
The variability in development is one of the things that I notice about youthful sex stories. So if all of the girls are of one sort, same level of development, same pattern of periods, and all that, it feels odd.
Exactly.
I've met girls who claimed to start menses as young as nine ... while others didn't start until well into their teens.
Hair, breasts, and other external signs sometimes being closely related, and others not getting "boobs" until almost in their twenties. (A sad disappointment to some girls.)
Oh, it is, but mostly because there are too many boys who are obessed with them, and there is a ton of social pressure to have them. Discovering that there are some boys who think otherwise might help, or not, depending on how the situation works out.
I don't know. It seems that the boys who aren't obsessed with boobs try to keep that fact hidden from those who are ... It's unmanly to not have a boob-fetish. ;-{
So girls just won't realize there ARE men like that, (like me) who prefer a nice handful to watermelons.
I think it is a cruel thing to tease about, especially since teasing boys about their lack of development is mostly something other boys - who might see the details - do. It isn't nearly so obvious when dressed that a boy's organ is small, and even then, you can't see how big it is hard unless they do so in public.
Mostly penis-size, though a big topic, doesn't really come up in comparitive-evaluation with boys. They just don't SEE each other naked that often ... at least not erect. You just don't go sporting a hard-on in the shower or pool ... Not if you want to survive.
But breast-size is much harder to hide. (Though many girls TRY, with floppy shirts and such.)
I hope the things I've said will help with the writing of this story. I do not read this genre so it's difficult to know if this story is better or worse than most. I've tried very hard to keep my personal prejudices about this type of story from clouding my opinions. I can only hope I've succeeded.
I think it was very brave of you Frank to post your story to the FishTank knowing it would be controversial. Thank you!
It is. Not that some others haven't been a bit controversial, and maybe that is a good thing. Questioning our assumptions about our chosen genre can be a good thing.
Actually, not brave. Mostly panting and hopeful to get real comments. Flames, while disappointing, can be ignored. Comments pointing out REAL problems can be priceless.
In that line, to both of you:
!!!!THANK YOU!!!!!
No problem, you're welcome.
/ ' /
,-/-, . __ /
(/ / ((/|/ / </ <
From: Poison Ivan
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 10:52:32 -0500
"Frank McCoy" wrote ...
The problem is:
THAT sex scene (and the other implied one) was rather short ... and just sex, not a seduction. YOU would like a proper seduction, with feelings-up, touching, cuddling, loving, foreplay, approach, insertion, coition, ejaculation, cool-down, afterplay, and more cuddling ... all described in detail.
I don't give a whit about what the specifics are. If you want a wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am sex scene, that's fine with me. But you still have to describe the sex. I don't like the lack of action described in detail. I also don't like long stretches of prose where nothing happens.
Using Katie McN's termonology from her Fish Tank post, this is a long story of mostly "narrative summary." Too much narrative summary is a very serious flaw. Katie's very nice post on the subject (I hope I'm doing these google links right)
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&selm=2vljnt057sd8hlb04oihjs93vfbfgjkq5 p%404ax.com
Another way I've head it said: "Show, don't tell."
Poison Ivan
^ being a little technical, but thinks it's an important lesson
From: Frank McCoy
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 18:09:39 GMT
"Poison Ivan" <[email protected]> wrote:
"Frank McCoy" wrote ...
The problem is:
THAT sex scene (and the other implied one) was rather short ... and just sex, not a seduction. YOU would like a proper seduction, with feelings-up, touching, cuddling, loving, foreplay, approach, insertion, coition, ejaculation, cool-down, afterplay, and more cuddling ... all described in detail.
I don't give a whit about what the specifics are. If you want a wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am sex scene, that's fine with me. But you still have to describe the sex. I don't like the lack of action described in detail. I also don't like long stretches of prose where nothing happens.
Damn. Well, I guess I misunderstood then.
Using Katie McN's termonology from her Fish Tank post, this is a long story of mostly "narrative summary." Too much narrative summary is a very serious flaw. Katie's very nice post on the subject (I hope I'm doing these google links right)
Hmmm. I've had some stories that were narrative only; and I thought they got well-recieved. In fact, a few people have commented that some of the "Conversations" stories were their favorites.
Or do you mean something other than narrative itself, when you mention "narrative summary"?
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&selm=2vljnt057sd8hlb04oihjs93vfbfgjkq5 p%404ax.com
I'll have to look at that. It may take a day or so, but I will check it out. Katie does pretty good writing; so tips from her might make more sense to me; because I'm not following your argument. Not that I disagree with it (there does seem to be something missing, I guess) but that I just don't understand the objection (yet).
Another way I've head it said: "Show, don't tell."
But if the whole STORY is "tell" not show? That (after all) is an entirely different POV.
I'll have to read that article, to see what you're talking about.
Poison Ivan
^ being a little technical, but thinks it's an important lesson
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From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 12:42:37 -0600
On Sat, 24 Nov 2001 19:33:40 GMT, [email protected] (Frank McCoy) wrote:
Jeff Zephyr <[email protected]> wrote:
On Fri, 23 Nov 2001 19:18:42 GMT, [email protected] (Frank McCoy) wrote:
Jeff Zephyr <[email protected]> wrote:
On 22 Nov 2001 07:05:13 GMT, [email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote:
Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story By Frank McCoy (Mgg, incest, cons, pedo, preg, teach)
Someplace I've seen a picture of two sister, one twelve years old, and the other ten. (Nudists, I think.) Yes, with the same parents. While not really "child porn" (no emphasis on sexual matters, or even on pubic areas), what struck me was that the younger girl had full pubic hair, developing hips, and apple-sized tits, while the older girl, being probably twenty pounds heavier, looked completely prepubescent, with only the vagina and face telling the onlooker it was a girl instead of a boy. That was over 6 years ago; but the image struck me forcefully, so I can't forget it.
If my sisters were closer in age, they could have posed for that picture :-) The younger was more developed at 12 than the older at 16. In fact, if they were seriously jealous about such things, the fact that the younger by 13 or so showed more figure than the older before she had kids might have been really annoyed that her 'baby sister' looked hotter than she did.
The gotcha in this situation is that the visible signs have no close connection to the development of sexual desire and responses. A 10 yo with the body which an older girl might envy (assuming she wants to look girlish) may have no more desire for sex than other girls her age. Maybe even less!
Aren't there other signs of sexual interest besides just sex? What about lots of hugs and kisses? Or even, just getting into nice wet kisses at an early age?
Hmmm?
The way I remember it with me, is the younger kids gave the big wet sloppy kisses, while the older girls were much more reserved.
Of course, that was with me, so maybe ... Never mind.
It depends on the girl, too. Some I recall didn't like the wet kisses at all, but held hands and gave peck kisses just fine. Still, it would seem to me that the hot kisses would suggest an interest in sensuality (which younger kids are sure into), and possibly sexuality. Most especially, if they keep doing it often after puberty, given how that tends to excite.
I do remember the first time I danced with a girl ... and then noticed she was a woman not a girl by the way she danced.
I'd find it hard to correlate activities like that with actual developing sexuality; because I've seen 8-year-olds flaunting their bodies in a "come fuck me manner" while completely developed women in their middle teens didn't seem to have a handle on the fact they were pretty much adults (in body, anyway).
Body motion things are maybe practice? Or maybe, just imitating older siblings or adults? Not everyone plays that game of imitation, and maybe the lack of practice makes it harder to figure out when you grow up?
I do track all such information about things like that; it being a major interest of mine for my stories.
Naturally.
I have a similar interest in youthful tales, but my naturally tendency for fiction story-writing is to try to push the age up to around 13 or 14. This despite the fact that my own experiences were younger, and sometimes I let that side come out in other stories.
Well, both can make for a realistic story. Even those kids who get REALLY interested in sex at 9, 10, or 11, often don't actually do anything until years later. And (usually) things don't make that interesting a sex-story, until you actually start doing something with other than your own hands.
Sure, you can tell the tale about their talking about it. Or how their romance works towards sex, if not quite reaching it.
But then, not everyone will love that kind of sex story. Some of my JZL series episodes are like that, though I think that most of that from now on will find some actual sex in it. Hmm, I'm not sure, though, I think that at least one or two more are just masturbation, shared or solo.
Partly, this is because that while some girls and boys at 11/12 are very ready for sex, or at least think they are, most don't seem to be. That I find it odd that some didn't discover masturbation until 14-17 or so doesn't mean that it is something strange to wait that long.
The main reason is that it puts it into the teenage range, and thus less likely to squick those who don't like pedo stories, and can't help think of 12 yo's - even though they are almost 13 - as too young to be having sex.
Ah yes ... Writing to the audience.
Sometimes that bugs me, when a sex story gets "toned down" to a certain audience. I've seen stories that were originally posted with the participants at one age ... and then posted later with different ones (usually older, but once-in-a-while going the other way).
Or, taking out explicit sex scenes, or even HINTS at same, because "children might read the story."
Ah well.
Sure, tone it down too much and you lose the point. But a year or two of age difference might not change the story much, and push it to the point where it doesn't cross the pedo line.
But not everyone sees that line as being purely chronological age. I'd say go and do what you want anyway. Sometimes, I try to see if the tale works best with 13/14 yo's, but sometimes, the tale only makes sense if the participants are younger. By 13/14 or somewhere thereabouts, "dating" is a possibility socially. It is rarely something which comes up earlier. If that side of the young person's life comes up, as to what school friends are doing, whether their at-home partnership might lead to something more socially acceptable, then they need to be older.
Sometimes I write to my audience too; so I shouldn't complain too much about others.
A RL bit from my own experiences, though: My 12 yo nephew was caught french-kissing his cousins. Maybe males get into that more, or that is just how it is in our family, I don't know. We had a talk about the whole issue, but though we've ruled out passionate cousin/cousin kissing (and siblings) - which makes me feel a bit hypocritical, but he isn't my kid and I won't overrule parental advice - it seems obvious to me that he's been practicing this activity with others, and probably for some time.
So?
I gather he got into trouble; but you weren't too specific. Or did everybody ignore it?
Nope, not ignored, but not punished either. The discussion centered on whether he could still visit with his cousins or not, and get into more about why the behavior was inappropriate.
OTOH, if he hadn't been caught doing it, his cousins might not have complained. It is not as though kissing is the same as having sex, is it? Not only that, but if it was merely "friendly" kissing and not looking so obviously adult (or teen) behavior, then it might have been dismissed as merely "cute."
With cousins ruled out, though, I doubt that his interest in others of the appropriate age will die off.
Now, maybe that isn't quite sex. But it is certainly something right on the path. My own life certainly involved such at that age, and it seemed natural to me. OTOH, not all of my peers seemed into it. I remember the whole "that's gross" reaction when we were doing "Romeo and Juliet" in 6th grade, which did end up with some practice kissing sessions between some of us who were interested in it, and worried that we might end up having to do it on stage.
Heh. Yeah, I can remember WANTING to kiss girls at the same age most of my peers were making, "Ugh, gross!" comments. I never did, even when younger, see anything gross about kissing girls ... even when it wasn't the pleasure it became later. Kissing and hugging always WERE nice things to me ... Something you did with people you like.
Yes, that was how I was. If not, we wouldn't have felt comfortable playing a "kissing game" with friends after school, and suggesting that some of the others try it out too. But then, when alone, we did a lot of kissing, and later more than kissing.
The school disappointed us, though. Not only did none of us who "practiced" the role get the parts, but they didn't even let the kids actually kiss on stage. Totally unfair :-)
Aw ... My heart bleeds. ;-}
The exhibitionist side of me really regrets that part. But the practical side says that had any of us "dating pair" sorts got up on stage and kissed, especially with our normal passion, we'd have been horribly embarrassed, and our parents just might have suspected that we had progressed beyond just kid-level friendship.
Hair, breasts, and other external signs sometimes being closely related, and others not getting "boobs" until almost in their twenties. (A sad disappointment to some girls.)
Oh, it is, but mostly because there are too many boys who are obessed with them, and there is a ton of social pressure to have them. Discovering that there are some boys who think otherwise might help, or not, depending on how the situation works out.
I don't know. It seems that the boys who aren't obsessed with boobs try to keep that fact hidden from those who are ... It's unmanly to not have a boob-fetish. ;-{
OK, yes, it isn't something you can readily advertise when you are school age. But you can tell the girls about it, especially if they lament their lack of size.
So girls just won't realize there ARE men like that, (like me) who prefer a nice handful to watermelons.
Some figure it out, but know that minority isn't going to change how other men think about them.
Most of the girls with "flat chests" aren't that flat anyway. Complaining about A-cup size is OK, maybe, but at least you can wear a bra then. Those who can't even fill a training bra have more to talk about, when guys won't even consider them because they look like boys.
OK, maybe it helped that looking like a boy wasn't a turn-off thing for me. I hit on some girls (in HS) mostly for that reason. But also, because I have a thing for girls who skip wearing bras, and the ones with smaller breasts tend to do that more often, because they don't need to wear one to be comfy.
I think it is a cruel thing to tease about, especially since teasing boys about their lack of development is mostly something other boys - who might see the details - do. It isn't nearly so obvious when dressed that a boy's organ is small, and even then, you can't see how big it is hard unless they do so in public.
Mostly penis-size, though a big topic, doesn't really come up in comparitive-evaluation with boys. They just don't SEE each other naked that often ... at least not erect. You just don't go sporting a hard-on in the shower or pool ... Not if you want to survive.
OK, I didn't survive totally intact :-) But in our school, 7th-12th grades, the showers for gym were open areas, same with locker rooms, and hiding just wasn't an option. I did need to make some comments about how the naked behinds looked a lot like naked girls, though, to cover up my reaction.
With girls present, though, it is less embarrassing. Especially if you try to act as though you aren't embarrassed, and it is just some natural reaction.
One way that you can't hide it, though, is from the girl/boy you have sex with (or try to). If you do it with more than a handful of partners, the odds are that someone is going to advertise your description.
Which, BTW, was a nice thing about those shower arrangements. I could tell my girlfriends about the boys, and they could describe the girls. It seemed only fair, you know?
But breast-size is much harder to hide. (Though many girls TRY, with floppy shirts and such.)
Sure, it isn't so hard to hide small, but harder to hide large. On the other hand, one advantage to smallness is that you can show them off more easily without being quite so obvious. Not so much bounce, so you don't draw the same stares walking down the hallway, but hard nipples under clothing, and bare cleavage/sides, are safe enough.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 13:05:53 -0600
On Sat, 24 Nov 2001 22:24:46 GMT, [email protected] (Frank McCoy) wrote:
Jeff Zephyr <[email protected]> wrote:
On 24 Nov 2001 04:46:34 GMT, [email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote:
[snip]
For some people, 12 yo is seriously a turn on. It is below the 13 yo "teenager" threshold, and therefore regardless of her development and actions, it is more exciting.
Definitely a point, both in this story, and others I've written.
For me, it isn't so much that part, but that I don't find 12yo below the threshold, or even 11 yo. 10, maybe, but it is getting there. But that comes from my own development, and I know that not everyone, or even most, got to it by that age.
I don't doubt that some 12 yo's have that kind of development and sexual interest, and perhaps knowledge of sexual behavior of friends. I do think that the odds are much higher of that sexual knowledge stuff if the 12 yo is actually doing it with her friends, rather than just her family. I mean, one way you find out everyone else's habits is by doing it with them and having some nice pillow talk, sharing experiences.
Pillow-talk, sleepovers, sniggering at boys, catty talk about other girls, snide remarks about, "Haven't you done it YET?" and other stuff can make for quite a wide experience-range, if not actual good knowledge. "Out behind the barn," isn't really the best place to pick up a good sex-education, even if that's where many of us actually DO learn about it.
Sure, it gives you some info. But not all of it is true. Unless you happen to have a close friend who is doing it, and is open enough with you to give details (which usually requires a very close friendship and trust), it tends toward talk about how other girls/boys are doing it. And what things you might want to do.
And (of course, and part of the point of the story) what we think we know about sex, picked up in such a manner, can be far from what really goes on.
Yes, that is part of it. Learning by doing can end up getting better results, but you can sure get a lot of bad habits along the way.
Just as well. When I was 12, the thought of pregnancy at that age was a matter of horror, not desire. Something that you will do someday, when you grow up, but if it should happen NOW, what will we ever do?
Well (the side-issue of many of my stories) if pregnancy is a matter of horror, then it takes a lot of the fun out of it. But I'll well admit it is that way for most girls. Of course, one of the BIGGEST reasons kids are scared-to-deaht of getting PG, isn't the pregnancy, having a kid, or even birth itself. It's the reaction parents will have ... AND peers too!
Sure, that was the major risk. But once we got past that, we had a fatal problem. Getting an abortion was right out, and having it wasn't an option either - definitely, absolutely, no way to keep the thing. Not only that, but we were way beyond being not ready to actually have a child, even if keeping it was possible.
Without having some reasonable way out of the situation, getting pregnant just didn't seem to be worth the risks. Now, I could imagine someone thinking that they could have the child and raise it, but I can't see it being the majority. It sure wasn't on the list of things that any of my girlfriends talked about doing :-)
When a kid (and particularly an adolescent) what people THINK of you is often far more important than what actually happens to you. And getting pregnant is: A. Embarrassing.
B. Obvious.
C. Something people TALK about.
D. Evidence you've, "Been doing the nasty." E. Something that parents and teachers talk about like it's the end of the world. F. Awkward.
G. An interruption in schooling. (For some reason teachers don't like an eight-month-pregnant girl showing up in class.) H. More I can't remember right now.
However, if pregnancy WASN'T a personal disaster, and only just a baby on-the-way, then perhaps it wouldn't be a horror, but something sought. (And perhaps that's WHY our society makes it a horror.) If parents were SUPPORTING of a girl getting pregnant, instead of treating it like she had leprosy, then might it not seem something desirable ... to SOME girls anyway?
Thus the basis for many of my stories.
When old enough, it works out that way. By age 15 or thereabouts around here, it isn't unreasonable for a pregnant girl to keep her baby, without any implication of marriage or even engagement. But that is because she is perceived as being old enough, and any parental dislike for her sexuality is more than made up in peer support. If nothing else, she could move in at a friend's place if her parents rejected her.
But that is also the age where the body is more likely to be able to support it.
Of course, in this story, the woman goes overboard; not only being supporting, but ONLY showing the positive aspects of having a baby ... and NONE of the problems. She's not exactly pushing the girl or forcing her to have a baby ... but seducing her into it sounds about right. Not exactly fair.
But then, Amanda isn't TRYING to be fair. She wants more children around the house; and figures since SHE hasn't been getting any herself, that she's figured a nice way of having more. And she's talking herself into believing this, almost as much as convincing the kids it's a nice idea.
Which makes sense, if you consider doing things way against the normal rules OK. But I can imagine such a social role in real life (might make tabloid news when found out, of course). Just that it requires a bit more than just parental support to make the situation work out.
A bit of fact amid the fantasy is nice, though. If we presume a family and children who seem to be able to handle that situation OK, it is nice when the details work out to fit into the possibilities of reality.
If we figured that most families would SUPPORT their kids in having children themselves ... We'd probably have a serious baby-boom!
I wouldn't bet on it. If more families supported birth control and abortion, I think that would tend to cut into the process. To get a net increase in having babies when it is acceptable for kids to have sex, you'd need to make it unacceptable for them to use means to counter the consequences. Which just isn't likely to happen in the real world.
Most teen girls have no desire to undergo a pregnancy when they aren't going to keep and support the child.
OTOH, what are the odds that 12 yo sex story readers are fans of these tales? I'm not sure, though. I suspect that other than the pregnancy parts, I would have been.
Funny ... Me too.
But then, I probably would have ignored the pregnancy part, when that age. ;-{ Not exactly smart.
I think it took me a couple weeks after doing it the first time to bring that issue to my attention, and a bit longer before the full impact of the risk soaked in. Conversely, my girlfriends were smart enough to realize the possibilities. We were wrong about some details, fortunately with no pregnancies, but when my gf explained that the reason she didn't go out with me the previous weekend was because she had her period, and that meant that it had been safe the first time we did it, I became suddenly intensely interested in the mechanics of the cycle.
When she shortly after told me that the safe period wasn't all that safe - rhythm method counting days doesn't always mesh with the weekends - it was disappointing. But not as much as ignoring the risk would have been. My worry about her getting pregnant had to pale in comparison to her worries about it.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Uther Pendragon
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:10:44 GMT
[email protected] (Frank McCoy) wrote
"Poison Ivan" <[email protected]> wrote:
Using Katie McN's termonology from her Fish Tank post, this is a long story of mostly "narrative summary." Too much narrative summary is a very serious flaw. Katie's very nice post on the subject (I hope I'm doing these google links right)
Hmmm. I've had some stories that were narrative only; and I thought they got well-recieved. In fact, a few people have commented that some of the "Conversations" stories were their favorites.
Or do you mean something other than narrative itself, when you mention "narrative summary"?
"Narrative" is used here as the antonym of "dialogue." Katie, if not necessarily PI, used a "narrative summary" for a summation of a long conversation.
This is fine, IF the conversation - or whatever - is tangential to the story. I introduce Part 4 of "Foretaste," with a few-sentence summation of a dull meeting. The point is that Bob sat through a dull meeting.
I report the next conversation in full, however. In that, Jeanette's professor for her night-course in sociology praises her.
Now, anther author - perhaps I in another mood - would report that conversation in summary as well. But you don't want a summary of the conversation which develops the point of the story combined with a word-for-word report of the irrelevancies.
What I think PI is saying is that Frank's story summarizes the sexual events, and then explicitly and at-length shows the mother's plotting.
Uther Pendragon FAQs http://www.nyx.net/~anon584c [email protected] fiqshn http://www.asstr.org/~Uther_Pendragon
From: Frank McCoy
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:50:44 -0600
Uther Pendragon <[email protected]> wrote:
[email protected] (Frank McCoy) wrote "Poison Ivan" <[email protected]> wrote:
Using Katie McN's termonology from her Fish Tank post, this is a long story of mostly "narrative summary." Too much narrative summary is a very serious flaw. Katie's very nice post on the subject (I hope I'm doing these google links right)
Hmmm. I've had some stories that were narrative only; and I thought they got well-recieved. In fact, a few people have commented that some of the "Conversations" stories were their favorites.
Or do you mean something other than narrative itself, when you mention "narrative summary"?
"Narrative" is used here as the antonym of "dialogue." Katie, if not necessarily PI, used a "narrative summary" for a summation of a long conversation.
This is fine, IF the conversation - or whatever - is tangential to the story. I introduce Part 4 of "Foretaste," with a few-sentence summation of a dull meeting. The point is that Bob sat through a dull meeting.
I report the next conversation in full, however. In that, Jeanette's professor for her night-course in sociology praises her.
Now, anther author - perhaps I in another mood - would report that conversation in summary as well. But you don't want a summary of the conversation which develops the point of the story combined with a word-for-word report of the irrelevancies.
- = -
What I think PI is saying is that Frank's story summarizes the sexual events, and then explicitly and at-length shows the mother's plotting.
FINALLY got around to editing this story. And I did finally understand the point of "narrative summary."
But to make each scene fully explicit .... Well, instead of being summarized, I'd have to backtrack the story several weeks, and WRITE the big sex scene in ... Making it (the whole story) about three times as long. I'd also have to do the same for each of the other summarized sex scenes.
It might (and probably would) make for a better STORY ... but it wouldn't then be mainly based around what was happening that day. Instead, what happened that day would just appear as merely an incident and natural outcome of what went before ... almost as in, "Why bother to mention it?"
Sometimes "narrative summary" does just what it's intended to do ... Summarize previous actions in a quick-and-dirty manner, while showing the reader just what was important in as little space as possible.
And ... in a SEX story, doing that makes it easier to stick lots of sex in as little a space as possible, for those jerking off in the shadows. If you do it in real-time, then you have to SEPARATE each item, what leads up to it, and the aftermath ... and DESCRIBE all of them.
So ... narrative summary, in the form of this story anyway, is just my lazy-man's way of getting as much sex and as much story in, while using as few words of story as surround, as I can get away with.
Yes, lazy. I haven't been writing a lot lately, for that reason.
Mea Culpa. ;-{
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From: Conjugate
Re: Her Daugher Helps Out: An Erotic Story, by Frank McCoy
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:52:55 -0500
Desdmona22 <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
Let's see; the visual description was nice; it gave enough detail without being distracting. And the dialog seemed realistic, or as realistic as it could be considering the subject matter.
To improve: I was a little disappointed in one sentence, "While not dressed as blatantly sexual as many girls her age, Marie wasn't out of style either." I can't make that sound grammatical in my head. And " ...as blatantly sexually ..." doesn't sound right either.
Then, too, I would have liked to see a bit more reporting of sensation. That really wouldn't work here, where the POV character isn't the one having the sex, but still we could have seen a bit more of the mother's sensation when she has an orgasm while watching. (Maybe a (voy) code would be appropriate? Not sure ....)
Overall, nice, even if it's not my genre of choice.
Conjugate