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From: Conjugate
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 20:17:51 -0400
"Desdmona22" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
The following is a complete story of 2666 words. Nick has stated that this story is to be coded, "Caution." Please take notice. He would also like to thank SplineDuck who graciously proofread the story for him.
Well, let's see. I greatly appreciate the courtesy of the Caution code. This is a splendid example, I think, of when it is to be used. And I think the scenes were set nicely; I liked the description of the apartment, and other details.
I was not bothered by the dialog. A little of the imagery ("hung like snot from her earlobe") was mildly unpleasant, but then that was sort of the point. And I prefer my sex stories to have some sex in them, although I suppose this is not really a significant matter.
And I thought the dialogue at the end, where we misunderstand what the sleazy boyfriend thinks he's asking about, was magnificent. The sleazy boyfriend could have a name, couldn't he?
Conjugate
From: Uther Pendragon
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: 8 Apr 2002 20:14:46 -0600
I hope Desdmona won't mind my renumbering this entry.
But Mat's was already # 34.
BTW, once this NG played with the distinction between SEX stories and sex STORIES. Nick's piece is definitely one of the latter.
[email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote:
As always FishTank guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
1 I like the curve ball. I didn't see the end coming.
2 I spent more than the first half of the story sayig, "Enough of the side issue, already. get on with the central story." I was wroong.
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
1 Lose the non-ASCII (high ASCII ???)
2 The cabinet seems to have two associations for the narrator. And yet we aren't told about the second one until he gets back from his sister's BF's house.
3) Try not to repeat!
HAH! I'm first this time.
Uther Pendragon FAQs http://www.nyx.net/~anon584c [email protected] fiqshn http://www.asstr.org/~Uther_Pendragon
From: Gary Jordan
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: 09 Apr 2002 07:25:24 GMT
As always FishTank guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
3) Try not to repeat!
1. I identiied with that little piece of truth, that sons are always their parents children:
I would have answered back, but internal alarm bells, installed in my psyche at the age of two, had started ringing. A primeval sense of self-preservation held sway, and I felt it wise to back off. "Sorry, mum," I mumbled.
I think a woan never has more respect for a man than when he takes her side against his mothers.
2. I had an "Uncle Simon", too:
The next day, I paid a visit to my Uncle Simon. He’s one of life’s fixers. If you came to him with a problem, and he couldn’t sort it for you himself, he knew a man who could.
Improvements:
Gary Jordan
"Old submariners never die. It's not within their scope."
I have never done that before.
I didn't do it this time.
And I'll never do it again.
(And this time, I mean it!)
From: Bradley Stoke
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: 9 Apr 2002 00:48:18 -0700
Nick
Although this isn't the first time I've read a story about surfing the internet and finding pictures you didn't really want to find, and although I twigged what the twist might be rather early on, this doesn't diminish the fact that this is an accomplished vignette on the troubled occasion when a son finds out things about his family he'd perhaps rather not have done.
The thing I most liked about the story is the overall atmosphere of seediness and vulgarity. At first that appears to be focused on the protagonist and his masturbatory fantasies. And yes, Nick is refreshingly honest about the voyeuristic nature of it. Then, as the story progresses, this seediness becomes a much larger part of the world until, in a sense, it wholly envelops that world.
I also liked the structure. It begins and ends in front of a PC monitor. The action in between follows a logical and unhurried path. And the twist is done very well. Very few wasted words.
I know this will be sorted out in later submissions, but I did find the conversion from the story's original format to text a little distracting. The use of '?' for inverted commas for instance. I know it's difficult to ensure that all smart quotes and so on are properly handled, but presentation is still an integral part of a story.
I also felt that although the story wouldn't have worked without the twist, that I was puzzled at the end as to what was the untold story behind the protagonist's sister's boyfriend and the woman who was photographed. Perhaps I missed it, but there needs to be some implied explanation. What that would be, I don't know, but perhaps more sluttiness in the photographed woman or some hint in the nature of the sister's departure.
All in all, a subtle and well-paced story.
I disagree with one of the other reviewers though, and that is about the lack of sex. This is a story about masturbation (and 'masturbation interruptus') and in any case the sexual act is actually a rather less shocking act than obsessive voyeurism and sordid exhibitionism. Having sex would actually detract from the seedy, slightly grimy, feel of the story.
Well done,
Bradley Stoke
From: Katie McN
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 08:25:14 GMT
Hi Nick and Desdmona,
Here are some thoughts on
The Cabinet (CAUTION)
by Nick (e-mail [email protected])
You story is very good as I expected after reading the byline.
I found the topic interesting and timely as this happened to me and I had the opportunity to stumble across pictures of myself that I never expected to see on the net and also had someone point one out to me. Not pleasant, but something many have to live with as more time goes by and scanners are found in more homes.
The start of your story has a very interesting contrast between the narrator's pontificating about why people should not be voyeurs of personal photos found on the web without the subject's permission, and his obsessive interest in same. Very good observation. I feel many people who are crusaders for decency are often obsessed with what they attack as shown so nicely here.
I have "expert" knowledge of mother problems and found the treatment of these very well done indeed. The details included to show the negative interaction were perfect and just what I'd expect from such a situation. Nice touches these.
There are a couple of things I noticed in this very well written story I might like to see done a bit differently.
You've done a good job with dialog for the most part, but in this section:
"Jerry, I despair. I really do!" she said when she saw my pride and joy. "You're living like a tramp, yet you waste your money on this!"
I couldn't see the woman saying this. I tried saying it out loud and it doesn't come across to me as effective dialog for the character. I looked at the rest of her speeches and these all seemed good.
Sometimes odd things can cause me to stumble. In this sentence:
The problem with the professional pictures of pneumatic models with their 'come hither' smiles is that you see only what they want you to see.
We find four important words all starting with the letter 'P' and use of the word 'with' twice in the same sentence. I had a difficult time reading the sentence and would hope it might be revised. The flow through most of the story is well paced and controlled by the author. Here seems to be a bump that detracts from reading.
Thanks for letting us read your story and giving us the opportunity to comment.
It's Me Katie McN
Read My Stories at:
www.asstr.org/~Katie_McN/
From: Mat Twassel
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: 09 Apr 2002 13:44:18 GMT
Two things that worked:
1. The dialogue. It seemed natural, helped develop the characters and advance the story, and put us right there in the scene.
2. The earrings. The description was vivid and memorable and provided a link to the character as well as a hook for the conclusion.
Two things to consider:
1. Some of the descriptions and expository passages are a little heavy, a little cluttered. The narrator comes close to overwhelming us with words. There may be a very good reason to have this story in first person, but I don't see it. Here's an experiment you might try: rewrite the piece in third person. I think that could help take the weight and edge off the exposition. Now, using the new version, put it back into first person.
2. The climax seems to be a false climax. It's fine as far as it goes, but the story needs either one more sentence or the rest of the book. Or a signal event or situation earlier so that the revelation (which, by the time it happens, I think both reader and character expect), results in something. In other words, we need the character's reaction to his discovery. Or we need to know what he does next. Or we need to know some critical fact earlier so that the eventual discovery has story importance. The plot, deftly handled, is not quite complete.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 12:34:38 -0500
On 08 Apr 2002 12:51:52 GMT, [email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote:
I like how Jerry explains his life and situation. I think he is wrong about a lot of things and about as self-deceptive as most people are (well, maybe a bit more in some ways), and this comes off well in the story. I don't think it would work if it wasn't strongly molded in his POV. You'd get a very different take on the situation. Here, as the person narrating the story, he get to lie - or at least conceal things.
His double-standard dealing with the pictures is another thing. A wiser man might come to different conclusions, or at least not be quite so hard on those who present such pictures. Or at least, make it a bit easier for him to imagine his sister - or someone else he knows - having such pictures on the net.
I've seen pictures of some friends on the net. The anonymity is nice, as most people won't know who you are even if your face is visible. Though a lot hide the face, it won't make you unidentifiable to intimates. OTOH, not everyone gets embarrassed about such things either way. But then, I'm not Jerry :-)
I like Jerry's take on eroticism in photos he looks for. I think that is the heart of the sex part of the tale, for me anyway (I don't want to give away the surprise, it was done well but I did anticipate it - though for a bit I thgought maybe it would twist away to something else). Images affect us, but we all have different things which work best. Even if you don't prefer his sort of photo, you get a good idea why he finds them so interesting.
I think maybe a bit more substantial conversation or flashback talk with mum might be nice. What is there is a good set up for a pushy mother trying to help her grown son "grow up." Gives me shivers, and makes me glad that my own had this weird idea that once out of the "nest," she no longer needed to guide us but would be available for advice on request. The advice might be the same in essence, but the tone was a lot less instrusive.
I'm trying to think of something specifically, but it just seems that the whole bit is just a little short of telling what is going on. Or maybe it is that the hook with the outcast sister pops up without any foreshadowing.
Faye's "boy" friend was set up to be bad, but I don't think we get to see quite enough of him, maybe. OK, Jerry probably was avoiding thinking about what his sister really did, but somehow I think there has to be some non-rationalizing part of him - the part which looks for such pictures on the net for example - that realizes that her desire for such a man wasn't out of character. That somewhere along the line, he would like to be like him. Maybe I'm reading too much into the situation?
Hmm, Jerry doesn't seem to be looking for a real girl like that. At least, he doesn't mention it. Not relevant to the tale, maybe. But somehow, his illicit picture search seems linked to that fundamental desire - to understand the sexuality of women he knows.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: PleaseCain
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: 10 Apr 2002 01:32:12 GMT
The strength for me lies in the tone of the piece, the seediness that permeates from start to finish: his contradictory feelings toward pornography, the sorry state of his own flat and his sister's old flat, the rat-like former boyfriend, the conniving uncle (introduced in a great paragraph - one physical detail away from perfection), the grotesquely funny description of his mother's earrings. His endearing apology to his mother ("Sorry, mum," I mumbled) tells me he is slumming it, in something of a slacker phase, to be outgrown. Thing is, those memorable touches about ugly earrings and respecting his mother, are the windup for the punch you throw at the end. Well done.
Things I might do differently include smoothing a couple of jagged transitions: the third paragraph was jarring, an entirely different direction from the first two; as was the transition between the two paragraphs after his mother leaves: " ... I went to my favourite sites and started downloading. [NEW PARA.] The problem with the professional pictures of pneumatic models with their 'come hither' smiles ..." Both spots struck me funny, kind of And now for something completely different.
More significant, using a discussion as an opening doesn't do much for me. It's rather Telling, instead of Showing. The antithesis to your potent conclusion. Just my opinion.
But overall, a very good story, just like your last contribution, and I look forward to the next.
Cain
From: PleaseCain
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: 10 Apr 2002 03:53:57 GMT
Oop, seems I unwittingly echoed some of Bradley Stoke's comments, about seediness. My apologies. To approach the story with a fresh perspective, I refrain from reading others' comments until I've posted my own, and usually kick in a couple extra of mine in case I repeat. Sorry, Nick and Bradley.
Cain
From: Selena Jardine
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: 10 Apr 2002 14:52:13 -0700
[email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ...
The following is a complete story of 2666 words. Nick has stated that this story is to be coded, "Caution." Please take notice. He would also like to thank SplineDuck who graciously proofread the story for him.
Here's our FishTank schedule:
April 8: Nick Cassandra
April 15 Larry Sweet
April 22 Open
As always FishTank guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
3) Try not to repeat!
Submissions and comments are being housed at:
http//:www.asstr.org/~Desdmona/FishTank/base
Questions may be directed to me at [email protected] or [email protected]
************************************************************
The Cabinet (CAUTION)
by Nick (e-mail [email protected])
I had some real trouble with this one, I'm afraid. There were certainly some nice moments, things that worked well in the story, but overall I found it had a sort of schizophrenic feel to it: a philosopher-king sitting alone and propounding his theories about pornography, contrasted with a completely different person, a slacker with dirty laundry, interacting awkwardly and unpleasantly with the human beings in his life. If you drew this contradiction out, made him aware of it, it might be interesting, but he simply seems to put it down to others' behavior and dismiss it. Some kind of integration is needed to make this character a bit more whole.
I think the philosophy paragraphs need a little work. Let me take the opening graf as an example:
It is, of course, quite despicable that men who purportedly love their wives or girlfriends, take 'erotic’ pictures of them and splash them all over the Net. Even with their consent, it seems like a betrayal of trust to me. After all, their privacy and dignity is being taken from them. These are just ordinary women with ordinary lives, jobs, even children to look after. I wonder if they fully understand what they are consenting to. They aren’t professional models who appear on billboards, TV or mainstream men’s magazine for whom becoming a fantasy for some greasy wanker is an occupational hazard.
The first sentence is talking about men. The next says "their" consent, but is still really talking about men (betrayal of trust). The third is talking completely about women, and so is every other "them" in the paragraph. It feels like inner thoughts, wandering about, utterly familiar to the thinker but a bit bewildering to the reader who hasn't thought them before.
There are other nitpicks - one doesn't set up roots, for instance, one puts them down - but I think the odd contrast between his inner life and his outer life is the main thing that jars here. I had to wonder why Uncle Simon, the fixer, thought the narrator had such potential, such "talent". What talent? Some of the philosophy could be straightened out or could go altogether; a great many adverbs could also go.
Now for the nice moments, which there are a lot of. The twist at the end was very good. It was one of those that seemed both unexpected and yet inevitable, like Hitchcock in a filthy mood. I liked the mother's "consolidating her victory"; that's a perfect phrase. The absence of the sister from the story works well as a red herring, too; for some time I thought it was going to be about her, and you led us neatly down the garden path there. Your descriptions are vivid, and your use of language (jade as snot??) is certainly memorable, which is helpful later!
Thanks for letting us read this story.
Selena
[email protected]
From: Always Horny
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 09:44:24 +0200
Des,
I suspect something's wrong in the numbering; last week was also 34.
1) 2 positive comments
- This story is very different. Not you usual run of the mill sex story.
And while the topic isn't my cup of tea at all it is an interesting story.
- The negative relationship and interactions with his mother are well depicted.
The sordid and seedy atmosphere is well set.
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
- The first paragraph feels more like a rant than a hook into a story. Frankly,
had this not been the FT, it'd have turned me off reading the story further. You may want to start the story before you go into that "rant", to hook the reader in.
- There are a lot of adjectives in some places. And often slightly overdone
ones. (Is it what is called "purple writing?). Sometimes this is used to give a humorous effect (Nat does it well), but I don't think that is what you want here. Lots of commas in many places, too.
F.Ex:
When the time came for me to leave home and set up tenuous roots of my own, my mother, of course, fussed over me like a hen. For a start, she hated the seedy little bed-sit I found. It suited me, but for someone as fastidious as her, the damp, the smell and the general grime were intolerable.
"I mean you come here dressed like some ... visiting royalty, with your face caked in make-up, wearing those ... those earrings ... You embarrass me, mum!"
She stared at me open-mouthed. I don�t know why I focussed on the earrings, but now I looked at them, they were pretty hideous. Little green jade fairies dangled from her ears like snot.
And the multiple offender IMO:
I would have answered back, but internal alarm bells, installed in my psyche at the age of two, had started ringing.
... "installed in my psyche", really ?
Thanks for sharing the story.
AH
A_H_01 at hotmail. com
From: Always Horny
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 09:44:25 +0200
Heya, Katie
Good to see you back. I hope you are fine and that things sorted out your way..
The problem with the professional pictures of pneumatic models with their 'come hither' smiles is that you see only what they want you to see.
We find four important words all starting with the letter 'P' and use of the word 'with' twice in the same sentence.
Excellent observation. I had not traced it down precisely like you did, but it does bump the reader out. Alliterations are to be watched out for.
AH
A_H_01 at hotmail. com
From: Katie McN
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:05:06 GMT
Hi AH,
On Thu, 11 Apr 2002 09:44:25 +0200 I noticed you post:
Heya, Katie
Good to see you back. I hope you are fine and that things sorted out your way..
Thanks for your nice wishes. Still going uphill, but a lot faster now with time to play a little bit.
The problem with the professional pictures of pneumatic models with their 'come hither' smiles is that you see only what they want you to see.
We find four important words all starting with the letter 'P' and use of the word 'with' twice in the same sentence.
Excellent observation. I had not traced it down precisely like you did, but it does bump the reader out. Alliterations are to be watched out for.
It's amazing to me that I can do the very same thing in a story and not be able to see something like this in my own work. Editors, hard copy and my text to voice program all come into play and I still do quite a few dumb things. PeeJ is my new editor and he went over a story from long ago and found things that were just plain wrong that I never saw. I guess it takes the right other person.
It's Me Katie McN
Read My Stories at:
www.asstr.org/~Katie_McN/
From: dennyw
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 02:28:57 -0700
On Thu, 11 Apr 2002 09:44:24 +0200, [email protected] (Always Horny) held forth, saying:
AH
-
A_H_01 at hotmail. com
I tried emailing that addy and hotmail bounced it. Rather a shame, as it was something that might have amused you.
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: Always Horny
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 14:30:04 +0200
[email protected] wrote:
A_H_01 at hotmail. com
I tried emailing that addy and hotmail bounced it. Rather a shame, as it was something that might have amused you.
Well, this address is still valid, and I keep getting mail on it. Dunno what happened. I sent you an email so you can try and reply to it.
AH
A_H_01 at hotmail. com
From: Brother Numlock
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 20:32:09 GMT
[email protected] wrote:
On Thu, 11 Apr 2002 09:44:24 +0200, [email protected] (Always Horny) held forth, saying: A_H_01 at hotmail. com
I tried emailing that addy and hotmail bounced it. Rather a shame, as it was something that might have amused you.
By putting a NOT valid email in your from line, you basically say: Don't send me email. I don't like it!
If you really would want people to send you mail, you would never make it harder than necessary for them to do so.
Yes, these are my opinions. Who else would want them?
From: Conjugate
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 21:59:56 -0400
"Brother Numlock" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
[email protected] wrote:
On Thu, 11 Apr 2002 09:44:24 +0200, [email protected] (Always Horny) held forth, saying: A_H_01 at hotmail. com I tried emailing that addy and hotmail bounced it. Rather a shame, as it was something that might have amused you.
By putting a NOT valid email in your from line, you basically say: Don't send me email. I don't like it!
If you really would want people to send you mail, you would never make it harder than necessary for them to do so.
Define what you mean by "people." If you, as most of us here do, exclude mailers of bulk commercial e-mail from that category, then you are mistaken. We put invalid email addresses in our "from" line because people (that is, genuine correspondents with an interest in us as individuals, rather than as a bank account) have sense enough, in most cases, to de-munge them.
For more on the subject of spamblocks, I recommend to you an on-line resource that was recommended to me:
http://members.aol.com/emailfaq/mungfaq.html
Enjoy. Learn.
Conjugate
unmunged by choice, not by credo
From: Brother Numlock
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 13:57:10 GMT
"Conjugate" <[email protected]> wrote:
"Brother Numlock" <[email protected]> wrote in message If you really would want people to send you mail, you would never make it harder than necessary for them to do so. you are mistaken. We put invalid email addresses in our "from" line because people (that is, genuine correspondents with an interest in us as individuals, rather than as a bank account) have sense enough, in most cases, to de-munge them.
"You" put invalid email addresses in your "from" lines because you want to make it harder for spammers to get hold of your address, but this also makes it harder for everyone. (Also people you want email from)
I just find this idea a bit strange. Why should people have to work extra to send you mail? Are you worth all the extra effort? (I'm not saying typing the address into your mail program is hard, but it requires more effort than just selecting "reply by mail" in your newsreader.)
This is probably a personal thing anyway. I would never send email to a writer (in assm) who munged his address. I take this as a sign that him not getting spam is much more important than someone telling him how good his story was.
For more on the subject of spamblocks, I recommend to you an on-line resource that was recommended to me: http://members.aol.com/emailfaq/mungfaq.html
OK, I've read this now, and as a resource it is OK. Some people here should definitely read it. (Denny?)
One thing though: Always include a '.invalid' on invalid addresses, to make sure nothing is sent to the address.
hmmm ....
From: Desdmona
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 10:49:39 -0400
The Cabinet (CAUTION)
by Nick (e-mail [email protected])
First, let me apologize for the formatting. Usually I check it out and didn' t on this story. Even worse, Spline Duck sent me an email early in the week and brought it to my attention. I'm sorry. I've been a little out of the loop this week.
Secondly, thank you Uther and AH for bringing the numbering to my attention. This of course is #35. I'm going to have to quit posting while I'm in a hurry, on the road, and right before check-out time at the hotel.
And now for my comments:
Nick,
This is a very provocative story. The pace was well done, and I think the topic is certainly current. I rather liked the twinges of guilty honesty that Jerry discusses. It's so human. Our morality, bred from birth, doesn't always let us enjoy some of the pleasures that our more rational mind has no problem with.
I like the coding caution for this story. I started reading with the thought that the ending might really squick me. I finished thinking ... "Way to go, Nick! You had me guessing." Unfortunately, I wasn't guessing at the twist. I sort of knew it. But knowing it, did not take away from its value. I was guessing or should say wondering more about, "When's the really really bad stuff coming?" The bad stuff is a moral issue, not a physical one. Darn it Nick, you made me have to think about my own morals. (Shriek!)
I suspect the jade earrings his mother was wearing sparked Jerry's subconscious mind, but I wanted more about the cabinet. I imagine dear old mum scoured every detail about the picture that was taken of her, and I think some alarm might go off when all of a sudden her son, out of the blue, is asking about "the" scratched cabinet. I guess I'd like her response to be a little stronger - another attempt at persuading Jerry to get something new. Or how about, when Jerry does ask about the cabinet, Mum subconsciously fiddles with the earring. Nah, probably too telling.
I have to agree with the comments about the boyfriend. I'd like to see a memory or Jerry's thoughts about the guy. Mum doesn't like him for obvious reasons; Uncle Simon doesn't like him because he's a freeloader (more on that in a minute.) What does Jerry feel about him and why? This is Jerry's POV. I don't think we need a whole scene, but maybe a one liner memory that Jerry has about the guy (he does need a name, doesn't he?)
I'm left wondering why, after apparently years, Simon hasn't resolved the rent issue. I mean at the point of the story, Jerry's sister has remarried and has children. That's a long time to allow it to continue. Maybe it would work better if Simon stresses how difficult it is to get the rent from him. Or is that what you intended? As I reread it, I'm not sure. On first reading it sounded as if he's been living for free all this time.
I've been scouring through pictures (not exactly the same kind or for the same reason) lately, and I can tell you I identify whole-heartedly with Jerry. Unposed, amateur pictures are marvelous.
I enjoyed reading this story. I like seediness when it's done so well. It's thought provoking.
Thanks bunches Nick for contributing to the FishTank. It was a gem!
Des
From: Nick
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 23:08:39 GMT
On Sat, 13 Apr 2002 10:49:39 -0400, "Desdmona" <[email protected]> wrote:
The Cabinet (CAUTION)
by Nick (e-mail [email protected])
First, let me apologize for the formatting. Usually I check it out and didn' t on this story. Even worse, Spline Duck sent me an email early in the week and brought it to my attention. I'm sorry. I've been a little out of the loop this week.
My fault, wasnt it?
This is a very provocative story. The pace was well done, and I think the topic is certainly current. I rather liked the twinges of guilty honesty that Jerry discusses. It's so human. Our morality, bred from birth, doesn't always let us enjoy some of the pleasures that our more rational mind has no problem with.
I like the coding caution for this story. I started reading with the thought that the ending might really squick me. I finished thinking ... "Way to go, Nick! You had me guessing." Unfortunately, I wasn't guessing at the twist. I sort of knew it. But knowing it, did not take away from its value. I was guessing or should say wondering more about, "When's the really really bad stuff coming?" The bad stuff is a moral issue, not a physical one. Darn it Nick, you made me have to think about my own morals. (Shriek!)
LOL you are above reproach!
I suspect the jade earrings his mother was wearing sparked Jerry's subconscious mind, but I wanted more about the cabinet. I imagine dear old mum scoured every detail about the picture that was taken of her, and I think some alarm might go off when all of a sudden her son, out of the blue, is asking about "the" scratched cabinet. I guess I'd like her response to be a little stronger - another attempt at persuading Jerry to get something new. Or how about, when Jerry does ask about the cabinet, Mum subconsciously fiddles with the earring. Nah, probably too telling.
I didnt see her that way. A fastidious person, yes, but I guess that when she lay back and let that (those?) photo be taken, she was probably not in a fastidious state of mind. I think she would probably have forced the fact that the photo existed from her mind, let alone worried about the cabinet.
Then again, she would have known where it was when Jerry aked her about it. Yes, thats a hole. Well spotted!
I have to agree with the comments about the boyfriend. I'd like to see a memory or Jerry's thoughts about the guy. Mum doesn't like him for obvious reasons; Uncle Simon doesn't like him because he's a freeloader (more on that in a minute.) What does Jerry feel about him and why? This is Jerry's POV. I don't think we need a whole scene, but maybe a one liner memory that Jerry has about the guy (he does need a name, doesn't he?)
As you and others have said, he needs boosting in importance.
I'm left wondering why, after apparently years, Simon hasn't resolved the rent issue. I mean at the point of the story, Jerry's sister has remarried and has children. That's a long time to allow it to continue. Maybe it would work better if Simon stresses how difficult it is to get the rent from him. Or is that what you intended? As I reread it, I'm not sure. On first reading it sounded as if he's been living for free all this time.
Or maybe he's screwing Simon too! Now there's a thought ... No, no drop it! You're right. It was one of those questions I asked myself as i was writing, but never adequately answered.
I've been scouring through pictures (not exactly the same kind or for the same reason) lately, and I can tell you I identify whole-heartedly with Jerry. Unposed, amateur pictures are marvelous.
Well, as you might guess, there's a little bit of me in Jerry (though I am a little less seedy, Selena!)
Thanks bunches Nick for contributing to the FishTank. It was a gem!
Thank you Des!
Nick
From: oosh
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 01:22:06 GMT
I'm sorry that my absence prevented me from commenting on this story. I'm just posting to say that I admired the creative spirit of those who did comment, and the creative spirit in which the comments were received. I think these exercises have a lot to teach all of us, no matter whose story is under the microscope, and that from each and every one of these exercises we all have something to carry away that will strengthen our own art, and the art as a whole.
I much admired Nick's story! We have had some wonderful pieces lately, and it is good that we can feel free to criticize, but also learn at the same time. I'm sure we have all said one or two things that (on reflection) may have betrayed our misunderstanding of the author's point; but it's good and helpful that we nevertheless speak frankly. It's just exactly that that helps the author reach the widest possible audience.
I think the FishTank is a fantastic opportunity for us, and it's a real delight for me to see everyone being so constructive and making the most of it.
O.
From: Always Horny
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 19:07:31 +0200
Brother Numlock wrote:
"You" put invalid email addresses in your "from" lines because you want to make it harder for spammers to get hold of your address, but this also makes it harder for everyone. (Also people you want email from)
Well, the people I want e-mail from have always found the way.
I just find this idea a bit strange. Why should people have to work extra to send you mail? Are you worth all the extra effort?
Maybe you don't make the difference between a return address on an email which I always put right, and a from field on a usenet post. The second is munged because of spammers.
This is probably a personal thing anyway. I would never send email to a writer (in assm) who munged his address. I take this as a sign that him not getting spam is much more important than someone telling him how good his story was.
That's fine. I don't need feedback on my stories <bfeg>
One thing though: Always include a '.invalid' on invalid addresses, to make sure nothing is sent to the address.
Correct. Terminating with ".invalid" is the good netkeeping behavior. However, with my munge, at worst spammers would be sending a mail to the domain "no.spam.thanks" and waste their resources. I don't mind spammers wasting their resources.
The only possible negative consequence of my behavior was if someone owned a mail server by that name. He would be subjected to incoming mails because of me. Gimme a break :)
And btw Denny got thru fine on second attempt. I even responded in kind to his joke.
AH
A_H_01 at hotmail. com
From: dennyw
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 13:25:41 -0700
On Sat, 13 Apr 2002 19:07:31 +0200, [email protected] (Always Horny) held forth, saying:
And btw Denny got thru fine on second attempt. I even responded in kind to his joke.
I think brother numlock refers to my munge ( [email protected] ) - to which I suppose I could add 'invalid'.
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: Conjugate
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 14:23:45 -0400
"Brother Numlock" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
"Conjugate" <[email protected]> wrote:
I just find this idea a bit strange. Why should people have to work extra to send you mail? Are you worth all the extra effort? (I'm not saying typing the address into your mail program is hard, but it requires more effort than just selecting "reply by mail" in your newsreader.)
Of course, selecting "reply by mail" and then deleting the words NOSPAM (or whatever) isn't much work at all, and certainly worth it if you want to communicate with somebody.
For more on the subject of spamblocks, I recommend to you an on-line resource that was recommended to me: http://members.aol.com/emailfaq/mungfaq.html
OK, I've read this now, and as a resource it is OK. Some people here should definitely read it. (Denny?)
I may be mistaken, but I think he pointed it out to me.
Conjugate
From: dennyw
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 13:41:37 -0700
On Sat, 13 Apr 2002 13:57:10 GMT, Brother Numlock <[email protected]> held forth, saying:
This is probably a personal thing anyway. I would never send email to a writer (in assm) who munged his address. I take this as a sign that him not getting spam is much more important than someone telling him how good his story was.
I find this attitude arrogant in the extreme. You're willing to read - and presumably, enjoy, stories from writers who munge their email addies, but not to take the few seconds needed to demunge their address?
HOW FLIPPIN' MUCH TROUBLE DO YOU THINK THEY WENT TO, TO GET THE STORY WRITTEN???? And proofed, and edited, and rewritten, and then posted. But it's too much trouble for YOU to remove a few extra characters from their munged email addy? I submit that perhaps it should be too much trouble for you to read their stories in the first place.
(yes, this attitude torques me off - with reason)
<denny looks at the 'From' field in a bunch of stories he has downloaded.>
[email protected]
[email protected]
(but her 'reply-to' is unmunged.)
Except for these two, I found NO munged 'from' addies. And how difficult is it to remove the 'NoSpam.' from MikeC's addy? As I note above, Oosh's 'reply-to' field takes care of the problem.
I suspect there are a lot more munged 'From:' fields on ordinary posts, as here in ASSd, than on story-posts.
-denny-
nocturnal curmudgeon, editor
Never try to outstubborn a cat. - Lazarus Long
From: Brother Numlock
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 23:58:22 GMT
[email protected] wrote:
On Sat, 13 Apr 2002 13:57:10 GMT, Brother Numlock <[email protected]> held forth, saying: This is probably a personal thing anyway. I would never send email to a writer (in assm) who munged his address. I take this as a sign that him not getting spam is much more important than someone telling him how good his story was. I find this attitude arrogant in the extreme. You're willing to
I know, but it is how I feel. I think email munging is bad, and by using it "you" break how the usenet was supposed to work. (The valid email is specified in some RFC iirc)
I also wonder if munging is worth it. I can't say I get much spam at all, and whatever I get I have no problem filtering.
[email protected]
Ok, I sent him a note some time ago ...:/ (maybe never was a too strong word? There should probably be a "almost" there somewhere ...)
note above, Oosh's 'reply-to' field takes care of the problem.
That is one way that works OK yes.
From: Katie McN
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 09:52:48 GMT
Hi Brother Numlock <[email protected]>,
On Sat, 13 Apr 2002 23:58:22 GMT I noticed you post:
[email protected] wrote:
On Sat, 13 Apr 2002 13:57:10 GMT, Brother Numlock <[email protected]> held forth, saying: This is probably a personal thing anyway. I would never send email to a writer (in assm) who munged his address. I take this as a sign that him not getting spam is much more important than someone telling him how good his story was. I find this attitude arrogant in the extreme. You're willing to
I know, but it is how I feel. I think email munging is bad, and by using it "you" break how the usenet was supposed to work. (The valid email is specified in some RFC iirc)
This is one of those issues where the people on either end of the positions are unlikely to ever change their thinking. You can reflect on yourself and realize I'm probably right.
I think email munging sucks and before I learned how to set up my news program correctly, couldn't see I was sending to people who did this without commenting about it in their posts. Eventually the mail I sent them would bounce and I'd have the choice of either forwarding the note to the real email address or flushing it. For awhile I sent comments to the various people who like to do this, but now realize they don't care so it's a waste of time to get into it with them.
I also wonder if munging is worth it. I can't say I get much spam at all, and whatever I get I have no problem filtering.
Agent and Eudora make it pretty easy to filter spam and some of the people on the side of munging here use one or both of these. I suspect these people have other reasons for munging besides trying to stop some minimal amount of spam from people who harvest email addresses via transmission. That simply is not the way the vast majority of addresses are collected and the effort is hardly worth it imho.
I agree that munging is impolite, but knew some person would jump in and attempt to make your position look small by raising the flag of the " ... hard working author ... why would you object to him or her saving themselves vast amounts of time by not receiving a couple of spam, ... after all the person did for you and so forth." Yep and pornography is destroying the world so US Attorney General Ascroft feels free to violate as many civil rights as his warped Christian beliefs deem necessary to destroy this purported evil.
If you'd like to get analytical you might point out that the person making the crusader for decency comments has never posted a story at least to my knowledge, and that I have some pretty decent author credentials and yet never found the need to mung my email address even though I receive a very large number of email every day.
It's Me Katie McN
Read My Stories at:
www.asstr.org/~Katie_McN/
From: spd3432
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 12:00:13 -0700
OTOH, There are some free email services out there. I don't have my email address 'munged' for newsgroup postings. I use a hotmail account that is only used for that purpose. The email program I use allows me to automatically check hotmail accounts in addition to the one provided by my ISP. From within it, I can drag and drop from hotmail as well as post from hotmail. I do receive quite a bit more SPAM in the hotmail boxes than I do at home, and its quite likely because only the hotmail account is publicly broadcast.
Sean
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 21:54:00 -0500
On Sat, 13 Apr 2002 23:58:22 GMT, Brother Numlock <[email protected]> wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
On Sat, 13 Apr 2002 13:57:10 GMT, Brother Numlock <[email protected]> held forth, saying: This is probably a personal thing anyway. I would never send email to a writer (in assm) who munged his address. I take this as a sign that him not getting spam is much more important than someone telling him how good his story was. I find this attitude arrogant in the extreme. You're willing to
I know, but it is how I feel. I think email munging is bad, and by using it "you" break how the usenet was supposed to work. (The valid email is specified in some RFC iirc)
I don't use it, and I know that sometimes the munging methods aren't obvious. Also - and I know that some people may forget this - but Outlook and some other clients hide the email address, showing only the name by default. Hard to unmung it if you can't see it.
If, on trying to send, the client generates an error message about an invalid address, fine. But too many fake addresses are valid forms, and thus you'll only know that they were false when it bounces.
I also wonder if munging is worth it. I can't say I get much spam at all, and whatever I get I have no problem filtering.
[email protected]
Ok, I sent him a note some time ago ...:/ (maybe never was a too strong word? There should probably be a "almost" there somewhere ...)
note above, Oosh's 'reply-to' field takes care of the problem.
That is one way that works OK yes.
The reply-to thing is easy enough and work for replies no problem. But it might not protect against address harvesting.
Still, I get very little spam which I can't easily cope with. Most is caught via automatic filters. My main address has been on usenet and the web for years (almost as long as the web has been around). Unmunged, all that time. I haven't been innundated with spam.
(OTOH, I haven't put my email address on web forms and such to speak of; definitely not on any info/sign-up things that try to gather such. I don't reply to spam emails at all).
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Nick
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 21:42:11 GMT
On Mon, 08 Apr 2002 14:32:30 GMT, "Valen Thyan" <[email protected]> wrote:
The Cabinet (CAUTION)
by Nick (e-mail [email protected]) <snip>
I liked (or rather, appreciated) the disturbing, realistic possibility of finding pics of a relative on the net (and worse, accidentally getting aroused).
So did I! Of course I wouldnt want it to happen to me!
I have to admit that I don't quite understand what prompted Jerry to suddenly recall the cabinet right then. Of course, this is probably just me.
No, that worried me slighty. Basically, he had seen the cabinet while trawling, and it had rung a bell in his mind. I'm not sure if he consciously reecognised it there and then. I'm also not sure myself, how clearly he had the opicture in his mind when he asked his mum about it. It's those kinds of things that should be clear in the writers head, even if he doesn't explicictly mention it.
Overall, hats off for originality.
Thanks, and thansk for reading and commenting.
Nick
From: Nick
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 21:49:38 GMT
On 09 Apr 2002 07:25:24 GMT, [email protected] (Gary Jordan) wrote:
1. I identiied with that little piece of truth, that sons are always their parents children:
I think a woan never has more respect for a man than when he takes her side against his mothers.
LOL, you're probably right!
Improvements:
What, then? You were number three Gary, you must have thought of something!
Nick
From: Gary Jordan
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: 13 Apr 2002 22:26:54 GMT
Nick Responded (it must be Saturday):
On 09 Apr 2002 07:25:24 GMT, [email protected] (Gary Jordan) wrote:
1. I identiied with that little piece of truth, that sons are always their parents children:
I think a woan never has more respect for a man than when he takes her side against his mothers.
LOL, you're probably right!
Improvements:
What, then? You were number three Gary, you must have thought of something!
Actually, I did have a couple of minor nits to pick, but the send button got in the way. By the time I got over my disgust with that, others had covered them adequately.
Gary Jordan
"Old submariners never die. It's not within their scope."
I have never done that before.
I didn't do it this time.
And I'll never do it again.
(And this time, I mean it!)
From: Nick
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 21:54:44 GMT
On Mon, 8 Apr 2002 20:17:51 -0400, "Conjugate" <[email protected]> wrote:
"Desdmona22" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ... The following is a complete story of 2666 words. Nick has stated that this story is to be coded, "Caution." Please take notice. He would also like to thank SplineDuck who graciously proofread the story for him.
Well, let's see. I greatly appreciate the courtesy of the Caution code.
I wondereed about that myself. It could give the game away, but then again, the subject matter is potentially offensive and i don't think it fair not to give a reader some kind of warning.
And I thought the dialogue at the end, where we misunderstand what the sleazy boyfriend thinks he's asking about, was magnificent. The sleazy boyfriend could have a name, couldn't he?
Yes, you're right. Others have mentioned that he could have done with a bit more 'filling out', and I'll take that into account for the rewrite.
I sense that this story was not really your cup of tea, which is fair enough - I never expected it to appeal to everyone, so i'm esepcially grateful to you for sticking with it and commenting.
Thanks
Nick
From: Nick
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 21:57:49 GMT
On 9 Apr 2002 00:48:18 -0700, [email protected] (Bradley Stoke) wrote:
Nick
Although this isn't the first time I've read a story about surfing the internet and finding pictures you didn't really want to find, and although I twigged what the twist might be rather early on, this doesn't diminish the fact that this is an accomplished vignette on the troubled occasion when a son finds out things about his family he'd perhaps rather not have done.
I gather it's been done before - actually by Spline Duck, who proofed it for me!
I know this will be sorted out in later submissions, but I did find the conversion from the story's original format to text a little distracting. The use of '?' for inverted commas for instance. I know it's difficult to ensure that all smart quotes and so on are properly handled, but presentation is still an integral part of a story.
Oh, thats awful. Des, I see has apologised for it, but i think it was my fault for leaving that rubbish there in the first place. SD has explained to me how to get round it.
Sorry.
I also felt that although the story wouldn't have worked without the twist, that I was puzzled at the end as to what was the untold story behind the protagonist's sister's boyfriend and the woman who was photographed. Perhaps I missed it, but there needs to be some implied explanation. What that would be, I don't know, but perhaps more sluttiness in the photographed woman or some hint in the nature of the sister's departure.
In my mind the real reason for the fight between Faye and her mother was that the mother shared the boyfriend (unknown to Faye). Of course she could never actually say that and the narrator was, at the time, too young to understand much anyway.
It is a balance, between the 'show/tell' equation, and for you at least, I got it wrong.
All in all, a subtle and well-paced story.
Thanks, and thank you for your extensive comments, which i couldnt really add to.
Nick
From: Nick
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 22:11:22 GMT
On Tue, 09 Apr 2002 08:25:14 GMT, Katie McN <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Nick and Desdmona,
Here are some thoughts on
The Cabinet (CAUTION)
by Nick (e-mail [email protected])
You story is very good as I expected after reading the byline.
I have to say I was surprised to see you posting into the FT against my story, and I started reading your post with a little trepidation, remembering what you said last time you commented on one of my stories! So another surprise in that you seem to have liked others I've written!
I found the topic interesting and timely as this happened to me and I had the opportunity to stumble across pictures of myself that I never expected to see on the net and also had someone point one out to me. Not pleasant, but something many have to live with as more time goes by and scanners are found in more homes.
I have to say that if I was a girl, I'd make sure that every copromising snap of me that had ever been taken was under lock and key (digiatal or polaroid). But then this is from the perspective of a guy who knows how untrustworthy some of drinking partners can be! Women, in my experience, are far too trusting (or maybe exhibitionist! <g>)
The start of your story has a very interesting contrast between the narrator's pontificating about why people should not be voyeurs of personal photos found on the web without the subject's permission, and his obsessive interest in same. Very good observation. I feel many people who are crusaders for decency are often obsessed with what they attack as shown so nicely here.
Exactly. Often one gets ones sexual education out of curiosity for things which one thought innocous, but which have been banned by the 'great and good'.
You've done a good job with dialog for the most part, but in this section:
"Jerry, I despair. I really do!" she said when she saw my pride and joy. "You're living like a tramp, yet you waste your money on this!"
I couldn't see the woman saying this. I tried saying it out loud and it doesn't come across to me as effective dialog for the character. I looked at the rest of her speeches and these all seemed good.
I dont know about this one. It may be cultural. Can you imagine a middle class English woman, who thinks she's better than she is, saying it? It doesn't give me any problems, but I'd like to hear more on this.
Sometimes odd things can cause me to stumble. In this sentence:
The problem with the professional pictures of pneumatic models with their 'come hither' smiles is that you see only what they want you to see.
We find four important words all starting with the letter 'P' and use of the word 'with' twice in the same sentence. I had a difficult time reading the sentence and would hope it might be revised. The flow through most of the story is well paced and controlled by the author. Here seems to be a bump that detracts from reading.
Not only that, but two start 'pro'. I might plead mitigation by the fact that the 'p' in pneumatic is silent, but you're right. That para needs attention.
Thanks for letting us read your story and giving us the opportunity to comment.
The pleasure is mainly mine, otherwise I wouldnt have posted it! Thanks for commenting.
Nick
From: Katie McN
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 09:25:04 GMT
Hi [email protected] (Nick),
On Sat, 13 Apr 2002 22:11:22 GMT I noticed you post:
On Tue, 09 Apr 2002 08:25:14 GMT, Katie McN <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Nick and Desdmona,
Here are some thoughts on
The Cabinet (CAUTION)
by Nick (e-mail [email protected])
You story is very good as I expected after reading the byline.
I have to say I was surprised to see you posting into the FT against my story,
I suspect that I will be commenting on stories in the FT from now on. I always like it when the group discuses writing, sex stories and related. I feel everyone with something to contribute should have a go.
and I started reading your post with a little trepidation, remembering what you said last time you commented on one of my stories!
I probably will be much more diplomatic these days. In the past some things unrelated to writing caused me to lose control and I was not pleasant. Not unusual for a person with a mental illness. I'm better prepared for the negative experiences of life now.
So another surprise in that you seem to have liked others I've written!
And why not. You're an excellent writer and capable of doing some fine work as we see here. I seem to remember writing fan email in the past and am crushed that you didn't frame them and keep the notes on your desk to act as constant reminders ...
[ ... ]
I have to say that if I was a girl, I'd make sure that every copromising snap of me that had ever been taken was under lock and key (digiatal or polaroid). But then this is from the perspective of a guy who knows how untrustworthy some of drinking partners can be! Women, in my experience, are far too trusting (or maybe exhibitionist! <g>)
I should 've known better, but the circumstances blah, blah, blah.
Today, if someone asked me to pose for some nudie pics or whatever, I'd automatically see them eventually showing up on the net and make my decision based on that knowledge. I am an exhibitionist, but after stumbling across pics of me in a newsgroup, I doubt if I will ever let anyone take a pic of me like that again.
[ ... ]
You've done a good job with dialog for the most part, but in this section:
"Jerry, I despair. I really do!" she said when she saw my pride and joy. "You're living like a tramp, yet you waste your money on this!"
I couldn't see the woman saying this. I tried saying it out loud and it doesn't come across to me as effective dialog for the character. I looked at the rest of her speeches and these all seemed good.
I dont know about this one. It may be cultural. Can you imagine a middle class English woman, who thinks she's better than she is, saying it? It doesn't give me any problems, but I'd like to hear more on this.
Currently, I'm having a discussion with the person who is helping me edit my new story. The conversation relates to the use of compound verbs and tenses other than simple past in fiction.
I understand that all of the possibilities in the English language can be considered grammatically correct. I agree that there are cases where any given tense would be the "right" choice. I know that the use of another tense is a good way for an author to write his or her story in the past and allow someone in the story to describe the past as it relates to the story. Fiction offers a place where writing done well is allowed and often encouraged to break all the rules.
Having said this, I have a bookshelf full of writing books by people like Sol Stein, Lawrence Block, Evan Marshall and a bunch of others who say popular fiction should be written either first or third person POV and simple past. The fiction I enjoy is written this way and what I run from usually has a compulsive and an almost forced use of compound verbs such as 'had' verb, 'have' verb, 'was' verb, and my all time least favorite 'have had' verb. These grammatically correct sentences hurt my head and are not what is found in the popular fiction I read.
My new editor is from the UK and says that this is the way things are done there so it appears to be one of the 'cultural' things you mention above. I don't know about this and probably should read a Harry Potter story to check out your culture and see if this is the case. I do know that we have an international group here.
From time to time people have gotten after various members of this community for being too American in his or her outlook. I agree with these thoughts and feel authors should try to write for the expected audience. If there is no reason to include elements related to a specific locale then it is almost rude to do so. Cultural specifics such as how much class, breeding, culture and whatever everyone from the UK has, or the representation of the low life, red neck life style everyone from Texas enjoys is not necessary in a story unless it's clear the story has to do with Brits or cowboys. ;-)
Somehow I missed the point that your story was a representation of problems related to middle class English people. If I had realized that, I doubt if I would have made the comment. On the other hand, it you were making a world view comment in your story then perhaps you might reconsider elements where one is supposed to listen "as if a middle class English woman was talking." The sentence sounds 'clunky' to me even though it is grammatically correct and in a certain part of the world, would convey a very understandable meaning. The people in Del Rio, Texas might not be as familiar with middle class English people as you are and it would not be at all unlikely for one of them to put down your story at that point and make a comment like, "What the hell that woman was saying?"
[ ... ]
The pleasure is mainly mine, otherwise I wouldnt have posted it! Thanks for commenting.
You're very welcome.
It's Me Katie McN
Read My Stories at:
www.asstr.org/~Katie_McN/
From: Nick
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 17:28:23 GMT
On Sun, 14 Apr 2002 09:25:04 GMT, Katie McN <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi [email protected] (Nick),
So another surprise in that you seem to have liked others I've written!
And why not. You're an excellent writer and capable of doing some fine work as we see here. I seem to remember writing fan email in the past and am crushed that you didn't frame them and keep the notes on your desk to act as constant reminders ...
I would have done, I'm sure, but I never got them, at least not under a nym that was recognisably yours. Maybe Yahoo, of course, sometimes it's not as reliable as it might be.
I dont know about this one. It may be cultural. Can you imagine a middle class English woman, who thinks she's better than she is, saying it? It doesn't give me any problems, but I'd like to hear more on this.
Currently, I'm having a discussion with the person who is helping me edit my new story. The conversation relates to the use of compound verbs and tenses other than simple past in fiction.
I understand that all of the possibilities in the English language can be considered grammatically correct. I agree that there are cases where any given tense would be the "right" choice. I know that the use of another tense is a good way for an author to write his or her story in the past and allow someone in the story to describe the past as it relates to the story. Fiction offers a place where writing done well is allowed and often encouraged to break all the rules.
Having said this, I have a bookshelf full of writing books by people like Sol Stein, Lawrence Block, Evan Marshall and a bunch of others who say popular fiction should be written either first or third person POV and simple past. The fiction I enjoy is written this way and what I run from usually has a compulsive and an almost forced use of compound verbs such as 'had' verb, 'have' verb, 'was' verb, and my all time least favorite 'have had' verb. These grammatically correct sentences hurt my head and are not what is found in the popular fiction I read.
My new editor is from the UK and says that this is the way things are done there so it appears to be one of the 'cultural' things you mention above. I don't know about this and probably should read a Harry Potter story to check out your culture and see if this is the case. I do know that we have an international group here.
From time to time people have gotten after various members of this community for being too American in his or her outlook. I agree with these thoughts and feel authors should try to write for the expected audience. If there is no reason to include elements related to a specific locale then it is almost rude to do so. Cultural specifics such as how much class, breeding, culture and whatever everyone from the UK has, or the representation of the low life, red neck life style everyone from Texas enjoys is not necessary in a story unless it's clear the story has to do with Brits or cowboys. ;-)
Somehow I missed the point that your story was a representation of problems related to middle class English people. If I had realized that, I doubt if I would have made the comment. On the other hand, it you were making a world view comment in your story then perhaps you might reconsider elements where one is supposed to listen "as if a middle class English woman was talking." The sentence sounds 'clunky' to me even though it is grammatically correct and in a certain part of the world, would convey a very understandable meaning. The people in Del Rio, Texas might not be as familiar with middle class English people as you are and it would not be at all unlikely for one of them to put down your story at that point and make a comment like, "What the hell that woman was saying?"
One or two points in mitigation. Firstly, according to the 'write what you know' principle, I know about where I live and the people around me, so it makes sense for me to write in that setting. Secondly, I dont agree that writing from your own cultural experience is necessarily a bad thing from the point of view of readers from other cultures. I don't mind reading stories in US settings, (or Indian or Chinese for that matter) because it broadens my outlook, even though I have to make more of an effort to understand the context.
In terms of the market you're writing for, I've come to feel that if appealing to a wide market is what you're after, you should probably be trying to get your work published and make some money out of it, rather than posting here. The point is that you have to be stifling your own creativity to some extent, if you have one eye on writing for a broad market.
A niche is a different thing, of course, because you're appealing to a more select group of people who share more closely your own outlook. They at least appreciate where you're creative streak takes you. However, if you're writing for your niche market you shouldnt be disappointed if, as you say, the people in Del Rio stop reading because they cant understand what the hell she's saying.
All that said, it wasn't my intention to make any kind of cultural statement. I think Jerry could be British, French, American or Australian. If his mother might have said something a little more univeraslly acceptable, I have no problem making that change.
Cheers
Nick
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 12:37:07 -0500
On Sun, 14 Apr 2002 09:25:04 GMT, Katie McN <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi [email protected] (Nick),
On Sat, 13 Apr 2002 22:11:22 GMT I noticed you post:
On Tue, 09 Apr 2002 08:25:14 GMT, Katie McN <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Nick and Desdmona,
Here are some thoughts on
The Cabinet (CAUTION)
by Nick (e-mail [email protected])
You story is very good as I expected after reading the byline.
I have to say I was surprised to see you posting into the FT against my story,
I suspect that I will be commenting on stories in the FT from now on. I always like it when the group discuses writing, sex stories and related. I feel everyone with something to contribute should have a go.
It is nice to see you around again. I really like the FishTank too. I think that our group as a whole is doing a lot more discussion about writing, and that is perfect.
[ ... ]
I have to say that if I was a girl, I'd make sure that every copromising snap of me that had ever been taken was under lock and key (digiatal or polaroid). But then this is from the perspective of a guy who knows how untrustworthy some of drinking partners can be! Women, in my experience, are far too trusting (or maybe exhibitionist! <g>)
I should 've known better, but the circumstances blah, blah, blah.
"It is all for art" (artist or photographer friend, in my case both). Or "no one else will see them." "I don't care, nobody I know is going to say anything about them, they know how I am."
Or similar thoughts. It seems perfectly safe, no risk of bad long-term consequences. Those pics with the faces hidden seem safely anonymous, right?
And they are, unless someone knows who the pic is of, or can recognize the location and make a good guess.
Today, if someone asked me to pose for some nudie pics or whatever, I'd automatically see them eventually showing up on the net and make my decision based on that knowledge. I am an exhibitionist, but after stumbling across pics of me in a newsgroup, I doubt if I will ever let anyone take a pic of me like that again.
I have mixed feelings about the whole situation. I know that I would never put the pics I have out on the net, period. So, for someone like me having my private pics I wouldn't worry. But then, who would I be making them and giving them to? All it would take is one untrustworthy friend to decide that a nice anonymous posting on the net was just for fun, cool, a way to show off, and it could get all messy.
Those web sites do get hit by people who repost to newsgroups, and once in distribution it will never go away. So, unless you want your naked self available for viewing for eternity, don't let the pics get out. Or maybe, don't make them.
It is hard to judge the ex-lover situation in advance too. During the relationship, why not do the pics for fun? But definitely, don't send them off via email to friends, and make some plans in advance for the "hypothetical" situation of breaking up, and losing control of the images.
A good ex-lover would give the pics back, and all copies. OTOH, such people tend to become ex-lovers at a lower rate than the nasty sorts who either want them for personal reasons, or are nasty enough to post them to deliberately embarrass you.
OTOH, if you've been photographed nude for professional reasons, you kind of have to expect that some such pics may slip out on the net. Again, something to plan ahead for when you decide to go into that line of work :-)
I have mixed feelings about the whole subject. I'd like to have more such pics of myself and my friends and lovers, for sentimental reasons. I had some nice ones, but many got lost. There is a risk that someday I'll spot them on the net, and my best defense is that we change in appearance in age, most pics are suitably anonymous in identification (no real names on the pics and such).
But I'd hate to embarrass my friends by exposing them that way. Of course, by the time that my personal photo collection gets distributed by my heirs (barring evil "friends" who might purloin some), it may not matter. But I just can't see posting any of our personal pics on the net anywhere. I think it helps that we're not using them to advertise for contacts; I think that is a very risky thing to do with nude pics. You can use clothed (tastefully sexy) pics just fine for that, if you must.
[ ... ]
You've done a good job with dialog for the most part, but in this section:
"Jerry, I despair. I really do!" she said when she saw my pride and joy. "You're living like a tramp, yet you waste your money on this!"
I couldn't see the woman saying this. I tried saying it out loud and it doesn't come across to me as effective dialog for the character. I looked at the rest of her speeches and these all seemed good.
I dont know about this one. It may be cultural. Can you imagine a middle class English woman, who thinks she's better than she is, saying it? It doesn't give me any problems, but I'd like to hear more on this.
Currently, I'm having a discussion with the person who is helping me edit my new story. The conversation relates to the use of compound verbs and tenses other than simple past in fiction.
I understand that all of the possibilities in the English language can be considered grammatically correct. I agree that there are cases where any given tense would be the "right" choice. I know that the use of another tense is a good way for an author to write his or her story in the past and allow someone in the story to describe the past as it relates to the story. Fiction offers a place where writing done well is allowed and often encouraged to break all the rules.
Having said this, I have a bookshelf full of writing books by people like Sol Stein, Lawrence Block, Evan Marshall and a bunch of others who say popular fiction should be written either first or third person POV and simple past. The fiction I enjoy is written this way and what I run from usually has a compulsive and an almost forced use of compound verbs such as 'had' verb, 'have' verb, 'was' verb, and my all time least favorite 'have had' verb. These grammatically correct sentences hurt my head and are not what is found in the popular fiction I read.
A good reason to try to stick to such POV and grammar where it best fits the story. But some things can't be told properly without using correct grammar.
Still, you can try to find other ways to express them.
My new editor is from the UK and says that this is the way things are done there so it appears to be one of the 'cultural' things you mention above. I don't know about this and probably should read a Harry Potter story to check out your culture and see if this is the case. I do know that we have an international group here.
I think that it is also appropriate to certain American styles of speaking. Virginian, for example, and maybe certain other educated speakers in the Northeast and Central US. Not so sure that the west coast fits it any more than Texas.
But sometimes, what sounds odd to you is perfectly natural speaking to me, or whoever wrote the story.
Then there are lawyers writing :-)
(OK, seriously, MichealD doesn't seem to suffer from lawyerese in his sex stories, but can you imagine a story like that?)
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Katie McN
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 18:28:33 GMT
Hi Jeff Zephyr <[email protected]>,
On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 12:37:07 -0500 I noticed your interesting post:
On Sun, 14 Apr 2002 09:25:04 GMT, Katie McN <[email protected]> wrote:
[ ... ]
I suspect that I will be commenting on stories in the FT from now on. I always like it when the group discuses writing, sex stories and related. I feel everyone with something to contribute should have a go.
It is nice to see you around again. I really like the FishTank too. I think that our group as a whole is doing a lot more discussion about writing, and that is perfect.
Thanks there can never be enough writing events to suit me and this one is one of the best as far as I'm concerned.
[ ... ]
I have to say that if I was a girl, I'd make sure that every copromising snap of me that had ever been taken was under lock and key (digiatal or polaroid). But then this is from the perspective of a guy who knows how untrustworthy some of drinking partners can be! Women, in my experience, are far too trusting (or maybe exhibitionist! <g>)
I should 've known better, but the circumstances blah, blah, blah.
"It is all for art" (artist or photographer friend, in my case both). Or "no one else will see them." "I don't care, nobody I know is going to say anything about them, they know how I am."
Or similar thoughts. It seems perfectly safe, no risk of bad long-term consequences. Those pics with the faces hidden seem safely anonymous, right?
The pics of me are not anon and the face is not hidden in most of them except for some backside shots which could have used some work in the pics and it's even worse having my big butt on display that just seeing some frontal nudies.;-( No one had to go to a lot of trouble to figure out it was me. Also, I was not betrayed by a lover. These pics were taken sometime ago for use in print work supposedly. I didn't mind the idea of people checking me out since one doesn't wear out from being looked at (the type of thinking that proves your point that many are exhibitionists who allow pics like this to be taken.)
The part that got me was being blind sided by a number of the pics from that weekend showing up on the net. I agree that I was naive about it. Print can be scanned and so ... I just didn't put it together or maybe didn't think at all which was pretty much me in those days. I felt the photog would protect his copyright, but instead the reality is he is taking pics of the next blonde who decided letting someone take nudie pics was an easy way to make money to finance a trip she wanted to take or whatever. Who do you sue for pics in a newsgroup or if someone uses them to create a gateway to a pay porn site? Live and learn.
Well it seems only right that pics of Dr Laura are also showing up all over the net and found in places similar to where mine ended up. At least I own up to being a perv, but someone like her trying to be the world's moralist why I'm almost outraged and so forth. ;-)
[ ... ]
A good reason to try to stick to such POV and grammar where it best fits the story. But some things can't be told properly without using correct grammar.
Agree, but not what I'm getting at. If you want an example of something that fits what I'm trying to get at, check out the first paragraph of the latest FT #36. I feel there is work to be done in the first paragraph of the story even though each sentence is grammatically correct.
Still, you can try to find other ways to express them.
Yep, my point exactly.
[ ... ]
But sometimes, what sounds odd to you is perfectly natural speaking to me, or whoever wrote the story.
Then there are lawyers writing :-)
(OK, seriously, MichealD doesn't seem to suffer from lawyerese in his sex stories, but can you imagine a story like that?)
First off, I figure that the way people speak in Texas is the standard for all the rest of you. ;-) Okay, maybe not. Michael D does do a good job of writing even though he is a good ole boy from the Lone Star State. You didn't know he was a Texan? See maybe my premise wasn't so far off. ;-)
Speaking of lawyers, Malinov is not shabby either.
It's Me Katie McN
Read My Stories at:
www.asstr.org/~Katie_McN/
From: Nick
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 22:22:03 GMT
On 09 Apr 2002 13:44:18 GMT, [email protected] (mat twassel) wrote:
Two things that worked:
1. The dialogue. It seemed natural, helped develop the characters and advance the story, and put us right there in the scene.
2. The earrings. The description was vivid and memorable and provided a link to the character as well as a hook for the conclusion.
Interesting. The description jarred some. In fact I wasn't sure myself, but it did underline what i was trying to say and you picked up on that.
Two things to consider:
1. Some of the descriptions and expository passages are a little heavy, a little cluttered. The narrator comes close to overwhelming us with words. There may be a very good reason to have this story in first person, but I don't see it. Here's an experiment you might try: rewrite the piece in third person. I think that could help take the weight and edge off the exposition. Now, using the new version, put it back into first person.
It an interesting thought. It strikes me that with first person narration, the character has to be a little blank, because you're inviting the reader to identify, to some extent with him/her. if you give them a strong outlook, as I did, then you won't carry as much of your readership. However, those you do carry, sympathise more deeply with his predicament.
Third person would have been easier in that respect, but I would still have put in the thoughts, so i'm not convinced the experiment works.
2. The climax seems to be a false climax. It's fine as far as it goes, but the story needs either one more sentence or the rest of the book. Or a signal event or situation earlier so that the revelation (which, by the time it happens, I think both reader and character expect), results in something. In other words, we need the character's reaction to his discovery. Or we need to know what he does next. Or we need to know some critical fact earlier so that the eventual discovery has story importance. The plot, deftly handled, is not quite complete.
No, I have to disagree with you on that one. But then I know what the critical facts were. I explained in an earlier post the relationship between the mother and the daughters boyfriend, and I felt that was enough. of course if you missed it too, then your reaction is more understandable.
Thanks for your comments, though. as always, they were useful.
Nick
From: Nick
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 22:35:24 GMT
On Tue, 09 Apr 2002 12:34:38 -0500, Jeff Zephyr <[email protected]> wrote:
On 08 Apr 2002 12:51:52 GMT, [email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote:
I like how Jerry explains his life and situation. I think he is wrong about a lot of things and about as self-deceptive as most people are (well, maybe a bit more in some ways), and this comes off well in the story.
In what way? I felt, if anything, he was far too familiar and thoughtful about his own drives.
His double-standard dealing with the pictures is another thing. A wiser man might come to different conclusions, or at least not be quite so hard on those who present such pictures. Or at least, make it a bit easier for him to imagine his sister - or someone else he knows - having such pictures on the net.
Yes, I see what you mean, and perhap that explains your earlier comment. He is, of course, quite young, but my view is that he would actually continue to be hard on th people who post these pictures, discovering his mu in one of those, going some way to curing him of his obsession.
I've seen pictures of some friends on the net. The anonymity is nice, as most people won't know who you are even if your face is visible. Though a lot hide the face, it won't make you unidentifiable to intimates. OTOH, not everyone gets embarrassed about such things either way. But then, I'm not Jerry :-)
Yes, but its not friends, it's relatives. A whole different ball game!
I like Jerry's take on eroticism in photos he looks for. I think that is the heart of the sex part of the tale, for me anyway (I don't want to give away the surprise, it was done well but I did anticipate it - though for a bit I thgought maybe it would twist away to something else). Images affect us, but we all have different things which work best. Even if you don't prefer his sort of photo, you get a good idea why he finds them so interesting.
I did worry about people anticipating the ending, but thinking about it, it didnt really matter., At least two did, and it didnt spoil it for them. I think the lesson here is that the twsit itself is not as important as making a good readable job of it.
I think maybe a bit more substantial conversation or flashback talk with mum might be nice.
Yes, but that would probably make for a different story. After all, the essesnce is what he doesn't know about his mum.
I'm trying to think of something specifically, but it just seems that the whole bit is just a little short of telling what is going on. Or maybe it is that the hook with the outcast sister pops up without any foreshadowing.
I'll think about that one.
Faye's "boy" friend was set up to be bad, but I don't think we get to see quite enough of him, maybe. OK, Jerry probably was avoiding thinking about what his sister really did, but somehow I think there has to be some non-rationalizing part of him - the part which looks for such pictures on the net for example - that realizes that her desire for such a man wasn't out of character. That somewhere along the line, he would like to be like him. Maybe I'm reading too much into the situation?
Yes you are. Jerry might have admired him as a kid, but as he finds out more about him, he learns to despise hi. You might argue that he learns to despise himself too. After all, he over-rationalises about his obsession a bit, doesnt he!
Hmm, Jerry doesn't seem to be looking for a real girl like that. At least, he doesn't mention it. Not relevant to the tale, maybe. But somehow, his illicit picture search seems linked to that fundamental desire - to understand the sexuality of women he knows.
More than their sexuality, he wants to unwrap them completely. I think yhe is basically a 'good guy' but if you probe into his pecadillo too deeply, you'll find something quite unpleasant.
Hmm, I may use him elsewhere!
Thanks for reading and for your extensive comments.
Nick
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 21:43:51 -0500
On Sat, 13 Apr 2002 22:35:24 GMT, [email protected] (Nick) wrote:
On Tue, 09 Apr 2002 12:34:38 -0500, Jeff Zephyr <[email protected]> wrote:
On 08 Apr 2002 12:51:52 GMT, [email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote:
I like how Jerry explains his life and situation. I think he is wrong about a lot of things and about as self-deceptive as most people are (well, maybe a bit more in some ways), and this comes off well in the story.
In what way? I felt, if anything, he was far too familiar and thoughtful about his own drives.
As you note below, he has a double-standard. In his mind, those who take the pictures are bad, while he who enjoys them is much better. The opening tirade is a good example - it is also one of the things where I think he is wrong. My experience (not infinite but well above zero) will women willing to have their naked pics on display is that they aren't especially naive; most know well that the pics are out there, many put them there without assistance of any man. Same goes for pics of guys, of course (but you have to look in the right places to find them - female erotica areas just aren't the places to look).
He thinks about them. But his conclusions are at odds with his actions.
His double-standard dealing with the pictures is another thing. A wiser man might come to different conclusions, or at least not be quite so hard on those who present such pictures. Or at least, make it a bit easier for him to imagine his sister - or someone else he knows - having such pictures on the net.
Yes, I see what you mean, and perhap that explains your earlier comment. He is, of course, quite young, but my view is that he would actually continue to be hard on th people who post these pictures, discovering his mu in one of those, going some way to curing him of his obsession.
Why? OK, maybe. It wouldn't cure me :-)
I figure that if and when he gets a girlfriend who can be talked into posing for pictures (digital cameras are all the rage, it is just for fun, etc.) he is going to turn into one of those men he despises. I feel the tempation is there.
Maybe not. But a kinky obsession - and looking at naked pics off the net isn't all that kinky - isn't easily "cured" except by replacing it with something more effective.
I've seen pictures of some friends on the net. The anonymity is nice, as most people won't know who you are even if your face is visible. Though a lot hide the face, it won't make you unidentifiable to intimates. OTOH, not everyone gets embarrassed about such things either way. But then, I'm not Jerry :-)
Yes, but its not friends, it's relatives. A whole different ball game!
Hmm, I don't think so. And no, I have no intention of giving out URLs or any other pertinent data. No pics of mum, at least none that I know of.
I don't think it matters. I mean, it isn't going to change our relationships. Of course, in my case I knew more or less what those people were up to, and am not surprised by their activity. I'm not one of those kids who never believed my parents had sex, you know?
Jerry maybe had a hard time imagining that sort of thing, about mum or sis. I had little doubt that mine were having fun in various ways. I'd be surprised, but not shocked to death, nor obsessed.
Not everyone is like me, I imagine. My student slacker period went on more or less for my entire college life, but my obsession at the time happened to be female companions, and going out to bars (where you might meet new female companions :-). No Internet then, and BBSs were fun but not up to hardcore porn stuff (books were the only good choice, rental videos weren't out yet really). Text stuff was good, but print was still better than the fledgling BBS net.
Extrapolating backward in time, I think that my net imagery interests wouldn't be much different than now, and I seriously doubt that it would be a totally private obsession. The "porn" print stuff was really nice to share in bed, you know (or before, as inspiration).
I know, not everyone has time for dating, meets the right people, is cool enough with the whole process (it is stressful, especially for shy people - like me; but sounding a bit foolish or tongue-tied is a small price to pay for the benefits of speaking to interesting potential companions).
OTOH, if I were a nagging parent, I'd use the "would you want your girlfriend to see this place?" as a way of encouraging both cleanliness and social pursuit.
I like Jerry's take on eroticism in photos he looks for. I think that is the heart of the sex part of the tale, for me anyway (I don't want to give away the surprise, it was done well but I did anticipate it - though for a bit I thgought maybe it would twist away to something else). Images affect us, but we all have different things which work best. Even if you don't prefer his sort of photo, you get a good idea why he finds them so interesting.
I did worry about people anticipating the ending, but thinking about it, it didnt really matter., At least two did, and it didnt spoil it for them. I think the lesson here is that the twsit itself is not as important as making a good readable job of it.
I think maybe a bit more substantial conversation or flashback talk with mum might be nice.
Yes, but that would probably make for a different story. After all, the essesnce is what he doesn't know about his mum.
I'm trying to think of something specifically, but it just seems that the whole bit is just a little short of telling what is going on. Or maybe it is that the hook with the outcast sister pops up without any foreshadowing.
I'll think about that one.
Faye's "boy" friend was set up to be bad, but I don't think we get to see quite enough of him, maybe. OK, Jerry probably was avoiding thinking about what his sister really did, but somehow I think there has to be some non-rationalizing part of him - the part which looks for such pictures on the net for example - that realizes that her desire for such a man wasn't out of character. That somewhere along the line, he would like to be like him. Maybe I'm reading too much into the situation?
Yes you are. Jerry might have admired him as a kid, but as he finds out more about him, he learns to despise hi. You might argue that he learns to despise himself too. After all, he over-rationalises about his obsession a bit, doesnt he!
Hmm, Jerry doesn't seem to be looking for a real girl like that. At least, he doesn't mention it. Not relevant to the tale, maybe. But somehow, his illicit picture search seems linked to that fundamental desire - to understand the sexuality of women he knows.
More than their sexuality, he wants to unwrap them completely. I think yhe is basically a 'good guy' but if you probe into his pecadillo too deeply, you'll find something quite unpleasant.
Hmm, I may use him elsewhere!
Thanks for reading and for your extensive comments.
Nick
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Nick
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 22:47:35 GMT
On Sun, 14 Apr 2002 21:43:51 -0500, Jeff Zephyr <[email protected]> wrote:
OTOH, if I were a nagging parent, I'd use the "would you want your girlfriend to see this place?" as a way of encouraging both cleanliness and social pursuit.
That is wonderful. While considering how I might make the mothers reaction more 'international' (as Katie suggests) I had difficul;ty dreaming up what else she might say. You've given me the answer Jef. Thanks!
Nick
From: Katie McN
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 02:07:26 GMT
Hi [email protected] (Nick),
On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 22:47:35 GMT I noticed your interesting post:
On Sun, 14 Apr 2002 21:43:51 -0500, Jeff Zephyr <[email protected]> wrote:
OTOH, if I were a nagging parent, I'd use the "would you want your girlfriend to see this place?" as a way of encouraging both cleanliness and social pursuit.
That is wonderful. While considering how I might make the mothers reaction more 'international' (as Katie suggests) I had difficul;ty dreaming up what else she might say. You've given me the answer Jef. Thanks!
This could prove very bad for me. If you keep polishing this part of the story, pretty soon she'll start sounding like my mother and I'll have to increase my theraphy hours. ;-(
It's Me Katie McN
Read My Stories at:
www.asstr.org/~Katie_McN/
From: Nick
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 22:38:59 GMT
On 10 Apr 2002 01:32:12 GMT, [email protected] (PleaseCain) wrote:
Things I might do differently include smoothing a couple of jagged transitions: the third paragraph was jarring, an entirely different direction from the first two; as was the transition between the two paragraphs after his mother leaves: " ... I went to my favourite sites and started downloading. [NEW PARA.] The problem with the professional pictures of pneumatic models with their 'come hither' smiles ..." Both spots struck me funny, kind of And now for something completely different.
I did have trouble with some of the linkages. In early drafts, i told myself they were style, but when i re-read, I realised they didnt work at all. I clearly left some debris lying around. Thanks.
More significant, using a discussion as an opening doesn't do much for me. It's rather Telling, instead of Showing. The antithesis to your potent conclusion. Just my opinion.
No, and I think Selena picks up on that (see later).
But overall, a very good story, just like your last contribution, and I look forward to the next.
Thanks!
Nick
From: Nick
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 22:50:41 GMT
On 10 Apr 2002 14:52:13 -0700, [email protected] (Selena Jardine) wrote:
[email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote in message news:<[email protected]> ... The following is a complete story of 2666 words. Nick has stated that this story is to be coded, "Caution." Please take notice. He would also like to thank SplineDuck who graciously proofread the story for him.
Here's our FishTank schedule:
April 8: Nick Cassandra
April 15 Larry Sweet
April 22 Open
As always FishTank guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
3) Try not to repeat!
Submissions and comments are being housed at:
http//:www.asstr.org/~Desdmona/FishTank/base
Questions may be directed to me at [email protected] or [email protected]
************************************************************
The Cabinet (CAUTION)
by Nick (e-mail [email protected])
I had some real trouble with this one, I'm afraid. There were certainly some nice moments, things that worked well in the story, but overall I found it had a sort of schizophrenic feel to it: a philosopher-king sitting alone and propounding his theories about pornography, contrasted with a completely different person, a slacker with dirty laundry, interacting awkwardly and unpleasantly with the human beings in his life. If you drew this contradiction out, made him aware of it, it might be interesting, but he simply seems to put it down to others' behavior and dismiss it. Some kind of integration is needed to make this character a bit more whole.
Oh, so you picked up on that one. I said earlier, that I thought he was more thoughtful than his character should have allowed him to be. On the other hand, you are being a little hard on him. The fact that he doesn't have domestic priorities and isn't well socialised, doesn't make him a complete low-life. That is a typical womans view! <g>
I think the philosophy paragraphs need a little work. Let me take the opening graf as an example:
The first sentence is talking about men. The next says "their" consent, but is still really talking about men (betrayal of trust). The third is talking completely about women, and so is every other "them" in the paragraph. It feels like inner thoughts, wandering about, utterly familiar to the thinker but a bit bewildering to the reader who hasn't thought them before.
I take your grammatical points, though I think the sense makes it unambiguous. Are you saying that this is what makes it hard to follow? (sorry i snipped out the paragraph - in retrospect I should have left it.
There are other nitpicks - one doesn't set up roots, for instance, one puts them down - but I think the odd contrast between his inner life and his outer life is the main thing that jars here. I had to wonder why Uncle Simon, the fixer, thought the narrator had such potential, such "talent". What talent? Some of the philosophy could be straightened out or could go altogether; a great many adverbs could also go.
Well, again, we know he is a thinker, whatever his exterior communicates, and Uncle simon is 'family'. He will be kind to his nephew, but also perhaps he can see that the lad has a brain after all. There are plenty of clever 'slobs' around!
Now for the nice moments, which there are a lot of. The twist at the end was very good. It was one of those that seemed both unexpected and yet inevitable, like Hitchcock in a filthy mood. I liked the mother's "consolidating her victory"; that's a perfect phrase. The absence of the sister from the story works well as a red herring, too; for some time I thought it was going to be about her, and you led us neatly down the garden path there. Your descriptions are vivid, and your use of language (jade as snot??) is certainly memorable, which is helpful later!
Thanks for letting us read this story.
Thank you for your comments. You were very frank about your views and I'm grateful for that.
Nick
From: Valen Thyan
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 00:01:35 GMT
"Nick" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ...
On 10 Apr 2002 14:52:13 -0700, [email protected] (Selena Jardine) wrote:
The Cabinet (CAUTION)
by Nick (e-mail [email protected])
I had some real trouble with this one, I'm afraid. There were certainly some nice moments, things that worked well in the story, but overall I found it had a sort of schizophrenic feel to it: a philosopher-king sitting alone and propounding his theories about pornography, contrasted with a completely different person, a slacker with dirty laundry, interacting awkwardly and unpleasantly with the human beings in his life. If you drew this contradiction out, made him aware of it, it might be interesting, but he simply seems to put it down to others' behavior and dismiss it. Some kind of integration is needed to make this character a bit more whole.
Oh, so you picked up on that one. I said earlier, that I thought he was more thoughtful than his character should have allowed him to be. On the other hand, you are being a little hard on him. The fact that he doesn't have domestic priorities and isn't well socialised, doesn't make him a complete low-life. That is a typical womans view! <g>
I completely agree, and would like to further the defense. A person's degree of enlightment, or mental acuity is almost entirely independent of their domestic habits.
In fact, there are many philosophies that would embrace apathy at one's surroundings. Much Eastern thought is devoted to letting things be; and if you delve too deep into existentialism, laundry is no longer your biggest problem.
On the flip side, looking around at my office provokes philosophical thoughts itself. Why should I bother organizing my papers, when I know that they'll eventually become disorganized again anyways?
Then again, I guess I could use a shower. :)
Valen
[email protected]
http://www.asstr.org/~valen/
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 21:49:14 -0500
On Sun, 14 Apr 2002 00:01:35 GMT, "Valen Thyan" <[email protected]> wrote:
"Nick" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] ... On 10 Apr 2002 14:52:13 -0700, [email protected] (Selena Jardine) wrote:
The Cabinet (CAUTION)
by Nick (e-mail [email protected])
I had some real trouble with this one, I'm afraid. There were certainly some nice moments, things that worked well in the story, but overall I found it had a sort of schizophrenic feel to it: a philosopher-king sitting alone and propounding his theories about pornography, contrasted with a completely different person, a slacker with dirty laundry, interacting awkwardly and unpleasantly with the human beings in his life. If you drew this contradiction out, made him aware of it, it might be interesting, but he simply seems to put it down to others' behavior and dismiss it. Some kind of integration is needed to make this character a bit more whole.
Oh, so you picked up on that one. I said earlier, that I thought he was more thoughtful than his character should have allowed him to be. On the other hand, you are being a little hard on him. The fact that he doesn't have domestic priorities and isn't well socialised, doesn't make him a complete low-life. That is a typical womans view! <g>
I completely agree, and would like to further the defense. A person's degree of enlightment, or mental acuity is almost entirely independent of their domestic habits.
Of course. But it doesn't mean that they aren't low-life or scrub material, despite enlightenment and intelligence. A potential mate is going to look at the domestic and social elements as rather critical signs of potential for social play and development.
Except for those interested in improving the poor scrub, raising him to his potential, or who just don't care.
In fact, there are many philosophies that would embrace apathy at one's surroundings. Much Eastern thought is devoted to letting things be; and if you delve too deep into existentialism, laundry is no longer your biggest problem.
On the flip side, looking around at my office provokes philosophical thoughts itself. Why should I bother organizing my papers, when I know that they'll eventually become disorganized again anyways?
Then again, I guess I could use a shower. :)
It is the whole Odd Couple sort of situation. Being a bit sloppy isn't a fatal flaw, nor will it mess up all potential relationship. Being a lot sloppy and unhygenic, and socially inept, can make it very hard to find someone whole want to share that situation with you.
Showers can't hurt either. I'm not sure how relevant the whole cleanliness compulsion thing is to social interaction, but around age 12 I became compulsive about daily showers. Is there some scientific relationship between that (and nicely arranged hair?) and getting together with the opposite sex (or whichever sex you prefer)?
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Nick
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 22:56:37 GMT
On Thu, 11 Apr 2002 09:44:24 +0200, [email protected] (Always Horny) wrote:
Des,
I suspect something's wrong in the numbering; last week was also 34. - - -
1) 2 positive comments
- This story is very different. Not you usual run of the mill sex story. And while the topic isn't my cup of tea at all it is an interesting story.
Again, I'm all the more grateful that you stuck with it.
- The negative relationship and interactions with his mother are well depicted. The sordid and seedy atmosphere is well set.
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
- The first paragraph feels more like a rant than a hook into a story. Frankly, had this not been the FT, it'd have turned me off reading the story further. You may want to start the story before you go into that "rant", to hook the reader in.
I've been told before that my opening lines need stregthening in this respect. However, something in me rebels at the thought of starting every story 'with an orgasm' just to provide the hook to keep the reader interested. I did wonder who would read it past the first two paras, but Edgar Allan Poe managed it with simlar wordiness!
I left it there to see if i could get away with it, but clearly in your case I didn't.
- There are a lot of adjectives in some places. And often slightly overdone ones. (Is it what is called "purple writing?). Sometimes this is used to give a humorous effect (Nat does it well), but I don't think that is what you want here. Lots of commas in many places, too.
Oh God, that hurts! You're right, and I should know better!
And the multiple offender IMO:
I would have answered back, but internal alarm bells, installed in my psyche at the age of two, had started ringing.
... "installed in my psyche", really ?
Ummm - no, I like that!
Thanks for sharing the story.
And to you for your coments!
Nick
From: Always Horny
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 11:29:08 +0200
Nick wrote:
AH wrote:
- There are a lot of adjectives in some places. And often slightly overdone ones. (Is it what is called "purple writing?). Sometimes this is used to give a humorous effect (Nat does it well), but I don't think that is what you want here. Lots of commas in many places, too.
Oh God, that hurts! You're right, and I should know better!
It definitely wasn't meant to hurt, ofc. But it's good if you think it points to something.
AH
A_H_01 at hotmail. com
From: Nick
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 23:13:19 GMT
On 8 Apr 2002 20:14:46 -0600, Uther Pendragon <[email protected]> wrote:
I hope Desdmona won't mind my renumbering this entry.
But Mat's was already # 34.
BTW, once this NG played with the distinction between SEX stories and sex STORIES. Nick's piece is definitely one of the latter.
[email protected] (Desdmona22) wrote:
As always FishTank guidelines apply:
1) 2 positive comments
1 I like the curve ball. I didn't see the end coming.
Good! Its nice to know I can spring a surprise on some!
2 I spent more than the first half of the story sayig, "Enough of the side issue, already. get on with the central story." I was wroong.
Not necessarily. As AH said, it would have lost me readers.
2) 2 suggestions for improvement
1 Lose the non-ASCII (high ASCII ???)
I will.
2 The cabinet seems to have two associations for the narrator. And yet we aren't told about the second one until he gets back from his sister's BF's house.
As I said earlier, I think my thinking was wolly on exactly what the association was. The first association you mention was a red herring when he mentions it to his mum. he had, in fact, seen it ion one of his photo's
Thanks for your comments.
Nick
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 11:27:29 -0500
On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 22:47:35 GMT, [email protected] (Nick) wrote:
On Sun, 14 Apr 2002 21:43:51 -0500, Jeff Zephyr <[email protected]> wrote:
OTOH, if I were a nagging parent, I'd use the "would you want your girlfriend to see this place?" as a way of encouraging both cleanliness and social pursuit.
That is wonderful. While considering how I might make the mothers reaction more 'international' (as Katie suggests) I had difficul;ty dreaming up what else she might say. You've given me the answer Jef. Thanks!
No problem. I'm very familiar with American parents :-)
I try to check myself when I think of actually saying such things, though.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
From: Jeff Zephyr
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 11:29:13 -0500
On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 02:07:26 GMT, Katie McN <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi [email protected] (Nick),
On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 22:47:35 GMT I noticed your interesting post:
On Sun, 14 Apr 2002 21:43:51 -0500, Jeff Zephyr <[email protected]> wrote:
OTOH, if I were a nagging parent, I'd use the "would you want your girlfriend to see this place?" as a way of encouraging both cleanliness and social pursuit.
That is wonderful. While considering how I might make the mothers reaction more 'international' (as Katie suggests) I had difficul;ty dreaming up what else she might say. You've given me the answer Jef. Thanks!
This could prove very bad for me. If you keep polishing this part of the story, pretty soon she'll start sounding like my mother and I'll have to increase my theraphy hours. ;-(
Hmm, is nagging mother a type of Domme? Is there some market for readers of such tales, so that perhaps it would pay to learn how to write such dialog?
Maybe we need some sort of code for this sort of thing, due to squickiness or threats to mental health of the readers? You're not the only one who gets chills from certain kinds of parental discourse.
Jeff
Web site at http://www.asstr.org/~jeffzephyr/ For FTP, ftp://ftp.asstr.org/pub/Authors/jeffzephyr/
There is nothing more important than petting the cat.
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From: Valen Thyan
Re: The Cabinet, by Nick
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 14:32:30 GMT
I liked (or rather, appreciated) the disturbing, realistic possibility of finding pics of a relative on the net (and worse, accidentally getting aroused).
I absolutely loved that the real story was about the mom and sister's-boyfriend implied relationship. It leaves many possible explanations, each one disturbing in its own right. This story reads like cold water in the morning- shocking, but not unnecessarily so. It took a while for it to sink in that Jerry was a crazy pov for a hidden story, which made the story seem all the more impressive when I finally got it.
The words seemed a little forced when Jerry was yelling at his mom. But then again, it doesn't seem like he's had a lot of experience talking back.
I have to admit that I don't quite understand what prompted Jerry to suddenly recall the cabinet right then. Of course, this is probably just me.
Overall, hats off for originality.
Valen
[email protected]
http://www.asstr.org/~valen/